Full ATPL

[Just another student]

It has been suggested to me, that maybe I should look at the possibility of gaining a full FAA ATPL in the U.S.A, then convert on my return to the U.K. The costs are considerably lower than gaining 1500 hours in European airspace, and they include between 400-500 multi-engine hours, with 250 being in a turbo-prop cargo airliner (placement with an airline for a period).

I know people ask about FAA-JAA conversions quite frequently on here, and I know I would need to have 15 hrs IR conversion and 5 hrs CPL (min), but would that be the only thing I would have to do (baring in mind I have the 14 ATPLS in the bag). I have read the LASORS but sometimes its hard to fully understand the requirements without a helping hand.

It is quite clear, that in the current climate, I would stand very little chance of getting a job with 250hrs F-ATPL. Would a full ATPL with 400-500 hrs multi time be truly worth the investment? My major worry is having my fingers burned with converting the FAA ATPL to a European ATPL.

Personally, I would prefer to complete 90% of my training in Europe, but my main concern is being selected for interview at the end of my training.

I'm confused, any thoughts?

:)

[BillieBob]

Be very careful!

To get a JAA ATPL, you need not only 1500 hours TT but also 500 hours as pilot in a multi-pilot aeroplane. You need to ensure that whatever flying you do in this "turbo-prop cargo airliner" qualifies. That means that the aeroplane must be designated as multi-pilot in JAR-FCL 1 and/or the Authority (FAA) requires that the aeroplane be flown by two licenced and type-rated pilots.

400-500 hours multi-engine time and 250 hours as an unrated pilot's assistant will not get you a JAA ATPL!

[Just another student]

Regarding the turbo-prop time, the aircraft are listed as the following, Metroliner, BE-200, BE-1900 or BE-99. The course out line states, 400-500 hrs multi-time, of which 250 (SIC) will be in one of the planes listed.

I really need someone with experience in all matters training to point me in the right direction. The last thing I can afford to do is waste money.

Thanks guys and gals

[FlyingForFun]

The last thing I can afford to do is waste moneyIf I've read you correctly, you are talking about paying to hour-build to 1500 hours in the US? (I am concluding this from the bit where you say "The costs are considerably lower than gaining 1500 hours in European airspace".)

Why would you want to do this, especially if you don't want to waste money, when you can get a job either side of the Atlantic with around 250 hours? Ok, so it might not be the best-paid job in the world, but it will certainly pay you more than you'd get paid for hour-building.

FFF
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[Just another student]

Basicaly it is a full time course which is offered by one of the better flight schools out in the U.S.A. 0-1500 hrs, or in my case 55-1500 hours in 27 months. The price includes all ratings and exams etc From what I can gather, the course trains you up in the first stage, so you will be a qualified SEP, MEP etc instructor (I imagine this is when the major hour building kicks in) then you move towards this turbo-prop placement at the end of the course.

The basic course price seems very reasonable, but with the cost of living out there for 27 months, it pushes the price significantly higher. Then with conversion on top of this, the costs just seem to mount. However, I would have a full ATPL, and surly that can only stand me in good stead with the airlines, especially if I have 250 hrs on turbo-props working in an airline enviroment?

FFF. How many jobs are open to guys with 250 hrs? That's the $60,000 question. I would be over the moon just to get any sort of flight crew position at the end of this, Prop - Jet, it simply does not matter.

[FlyingForFun]

so you will be a qualified SEP, MEP etc instructor (I imagine this is when the major hour building kicks in)So they are getting you to work as an instructor, and charging you for the priviledge?

Whilst doing my instructor rating, I recently met two other students who were much further into the course than me. (One passed his FI(R) test a couple of weeks ago, the other had his test last weekend and I haven't heard yet whether he passed.) Both of them had offers for (paid) instructing jobs before their tests, conditional on passing the test obviously. I don't know exactly how many hours either of them have - I would guess that one has less than 300, the other less than 1000.

I know my sample of two isn't exactly big, but it's still a 100% success rate. There are jobs popping up at the moment - more so than a year or two ago.

FFF
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[Just another student]

So they are getting you to work as an instructor, and charging you for the priviledge?

I am not too sure wether or not anyone on this course would be paid for Instructing, but I dare say they are not. I do not know what the Immigration laws state, when it comes to working in a foreign country. If this is the case, then anybody taking up the course is effictively, working for free. But as I state, I do not know the complete ins and outs of the course.

Basically I have been told i'm going about my training the 'wrong' way. What is the 'right' way to do things? I thought this would differ depending on the individual?



:confused:

[FlyingForFun]

JAS,

You are right - there are loads of different ways of doing this, and different methods suit different people.

I don't know the details of the course you're looking at, but from the brief description you've given, it sounds like the ideal course for someone with loads and loads of money whose dream is to be in the left seat of an airliner and nothing else will do.

Back in the real world, though, not many of us have loads and loads of money, so most of us would prefer a route which enables us to spend less money on the training, and start earning money sooner - a double-win situation.

Also, although many (but not all) of us dream of being in the left seat of an airliner eventually, most of us would settle for the right hand seat of a twin piston or turbo-prop, or some instructing, or possibly sight-seeing or aerial photography. For many, there comes a point where paying out to get to the left seat of an airliner quicker is worthwhile, others would rather carry on in what is often perceived as lesser jobs and save the financial outlay - but this compromise between cost and benefit depends very much on personal circumstances.

Although I can just about understand people paying for type-ratings, and even working for free when times are very hard (I didn't say I agree with it, I said I understand it), I really can't understand why anyone would pay someone else to work for them at a time when the market is picking up and it's possible to find a very similar job, and get paid for it, without too much trouble. I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, I don't know.... (I doubt immigration laws would come into it - if you're not getting paid I don't think it counts as work from a legal point of view, but I may be wrong.)

FFF
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[Just another student]

Financially speaking, for the whole course including travel, exams etc is (for me) approx 23,000 GBP. You then have living expenses for 27 months, they reckon $1000 per month, so you are looking at a further 15,000 GBP. So far that is 38,000 GBP, plus any conversion costs. I think I would be looking at a further 48,000 (maybe a little more) in total, which would give me a FAA/JAA Full ATPL. For me, this is out of the question really, but for others I dare say its just the ticket.

However when you compare value for money, there is no comparison. But we knew that already.

Right now I need experience, good quality hours and value for money.

Just as a quick thought, I have roughly worked out that it will take another 34,000 GBP to complete my F-ATPL and complete a MCC. Is this figure over the top baring in mind I have a PPL, Night Rating 55 hrs, and all theories done and dusted?

I have over budgeted for some things, but apparently Stapleford offer a modualr route for 25,000 GBP (according to a previous thread). For me, that could well be a possibility, but when I look at the website, I see no overall figure?

[onehunga]

There have been quite a few posts in relation to schemes in the US which attract punters due to the ability to get turbo prop time. Whilst some appear to give you exactly what they state others appear to have fine print which in some cases can exclude you from getting your hands on that nice big turbo prop. The usual tricks I have read about are you not achieving certain marks or having favourable reports from instructors or as you say some sort of immigration/visa pitfall.

Since you would have usually paid a premium to attend these schools in the first place with the bonus being TP time then you could be left out of pocket compared to going to any zillion number of US FTO's.

This would be my suggestion:

- Since you know the name of the FTO you are looking at do a search and see what pops up. Search also on TP time and hour building etc etc. There are also loads of posts on working for free which you should read
- Check JAA FCL for the aircraft that the school says you will fly in and make sure if qualifies as multi crew
- Get hold of the contract (if any) that you will sign up to with the school and make sure there is no fine print in relation to the TP time etc. Also what if they change the TP midway through to something which is not JAA multi crew approved?
- Find out if you have to pay up front or can make progress payments throughout - this will minimise any loss to you should the TP time turn out to be a scam

There you go. Some thoughts for what it is worth.

[Just another student]

Thanks for the advice onehunga.

[BillieBob]

JAS - All of the types you have listed are Single Pilot Aeroplanes according to JAR-FCL1. Unless the FAA mandate that this operator's aircraft may be operated only by two licensed and type-rated pilots, the flying will not count towards either the 1500 hours total time or the 500 hours multi-pilot time required for the JAA ATPL. You could log the time only as SNY.

[Just another student]

BillieBob, thanks for the information. If any of you guys were in my shoes, would you opt to obtain the FAA IR/CPL/ME and then convert, or would you spend the extra and complete a JAA course? I've read that UK schools are now becoming more comfortable running conversion courses, and as long as I am taught to a high level (JAA in mind), then surly it should be no different than passing the JAA course in the first place? Plus I get the bonus of being able to fly N registered aircraft.