Career changer seeking advice

[WannaleaveRR]

Folks,

The time has come to make that all important life, changing career move at the ripe old age of 35 and if I may I would like to trouble you for some advice! :O

Background:- I'm a lifelong propellor-head who's been desparate to find a way to break into the field of aviation but have to date been sadly thwarted. Despite this I've grabbed my opportunities wherever and whenever I could, flying Chipmunks and motor gliders with the ATC, short hops in gliders and light aircraft with friends, jumpseat flights back when they were more comon and even taking two actual flying lessons in Cincinatti whilst on a work placement.

I am now in the very fortunate position of having a wonderful wife who apart from her many other qualities earns twice my salary and we have a decent amount of equity tied up in the house, though not enough to cover an integrated course. I'm currently working for RR in Derby as a Chartered Engineer designing Turbine hardware for large civil Turbofans. With the gentle encouragement of my wife ringing in my ears ("Just go and learn to be a pilot for Gawd's sake!") I am now making the first moves that will eventually see me leave a comfortable job in search of a new career in commercial aviation.

I've done a fair amount of lurking and reading in the PPruNe forum pages trying to fathom out the ins, the outs, who's good, who's bad, what's required, what's it going to cost and so on.

Like I say, I think the Integrated route is not really an option for me with a course cost range of between £60k and £80k. Therefore I'm looking at JAA Ab Initio ATPL courses as being the potential route to my dreams.

One example I've seen has a course cost of around £30k. On top of that are the following costs, some of which I've found but some of which I could do with some help on:

Class 1 Medical - £411 to be taken at the Gatwick AMC. Critical... If I fail this I'm stumped! :p The only thing I might have a problem with is Eyesight. I've printed off the JAA Class 12 visual standards and will be gong to see my optician ASAP to ensure I meet the requirements.

CAA Test & Examination Fees - From what I've gathered thus far there are 14 exams and the fees from April '04 will be £55 per exam. This is an expensive business so I'm pretty certain the CAA test is a separate and costly item but have not found this info so far.

Aircraft Hire for Tests - Wow! How long is a piece of string?!? Any views on this?

Licence issue fees -

170A Test Fee -

Landing & approach fees while in the UK -

I guess what I'm looking for is the REAL end figure that I'm likely to have paid at the end of the day. £30k +....£10k? £15k? £20k?

The next question I guess is, having passed and been awarded a Frozen ATPL my next move is to go out looking for an employer who will hire me and train me for type rating on their aircraft. Is this where the bonded pilot comes into it? I would assume that if they're going to spend a large sum of money training me to fly a 737 / A320 / whatever, they're going to want me to stick around and repay my tuition. What sort of pay rates do bonded pilots get? In fact, what sort of pay does a non bonded FO get? I'm not in this for the money, but this would be useful to know up front.

You can probably guess which Flight training centre I've used as the basis for my sums... can you recommend any others withing reasonable striking distance of Derby?

:ugh: I've got a million and one other questions but these'll do for now!

Thank you all for your time and your patience with yet another wannabe!

Cheers!

WLRR

[Flypuppy]

Check out the A Question for the Professionals thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=119608) alot of the answers you seek will be there somewhere.

It is a tough road to travel, and as someone said on another thread it takes no prisoners.

There are two ways of getting your licences and ratings:

Integrated (12-18 months at one of the large FTO's cost approx £60-80k)
Modular (12-36 months pick and mix the training providers cost from £30k)

Both routes will provide the same licences at the end of the day, it depends how you want/need to structure your life to fit the training. Modular is the more flexible route.

Whatever you choose, build at least a 20% contingency into your financial plan to take into account any unforseen issues that may appear during the training. If you do over-run on anything you wont be stuck for money halfway through your IR. If you dont use it, then you are quids in and take the wife to Venice for a long weekend to thank her for her patience and understanding.

Best of luck.

[englishal]

Actually, there's 3 ways to get you licence. The third way is by far the cheapest.;)

Rgds
EA

[WannaleaveRR]

Thanks for the responses guys... though I'll be honest Englishal and admit I have no idea what you're talking about!?

I've had a look through the excellent list of Do's and Don'ts


Definitely something I want to do and have wanted to do for a long time
A copy of the Clive Huges book ordered from Transair
Done several powered and unpowered flights, I build & fly RC models, Flight sims, and am a keen aviation photographer!
A class one medical is being booked
Will be contacting current and ex-students from the schools
Modular is for me... can't afford integrated!
Checking out all the schools!
25% added just to be on the safe side - current guestimates are for £48k


As for the don'ts... the rose tinted glasses have definitely been scrapped. :ok:

I would still be very interested to hear from any bonded or ex-bonded pilots for some ballpark pay figures.

Cheers!

WLRR
:cool:

[GARDENER]

I do believe Englishal is hinting toward number three being the sponsored route-"by far the cheapest". I did modular, several attempts at everything! including B&B's travelling to exams, training cost me in the region of 40k with MCC costing 3k of the total. Did my PPL, IMC night and multi + 100hrs in the states. Came back, home studied for the exams, finally passed these and went on to do my CPL/IR in the UK and finished off with 20hrs on the 757 sim (MCC) Bought a share in a Cessna and keep current in it.....this is not included in the price quoted!
Still looking for a job but things look better every day. Good luck, I am told it's worth it!

[WannaleaveRR]

Hi Gardener,

Ahhhh the fabled sponsored route! I've heard about them! :O

I looked into them a few years ago and the entry criteria was under 28... I was 30! :{ To quote a certain Mr. H Simpson... D'oh!!

I'm now 35.... Does anyone offer sponsored to anyone over 30?

Cheers!

WLRR

[no sponsor]

I'll have a go at answering the question related to cost.

My PPL cost in the region of £5,500 here in the UK.

I have done some 80 or so hours since my PPL, at a cost of around £100 per hour once I average it all out (including my Night and IMC). Although I've never sent the forms to the CAA! (something I must do for my night rating).

For the more serious stuff, I am doing my ATPLs at Bristol Ground School (distance learning). This costs £2000 for the course. Plus £720 for the exams. I'll budget on £800 for accomadation/petrol and food for the residential part.

The flying bit:

ME/CPL - £6500
IR = £12000

Exams: 2 x £607 CAA fees. (CPL and IR)
£300 landing fees
£1200 for twin time to do CPL and IR tests.

MCC - £4000 ( I know it can be cheaper, and more expensive, but this is middle of road. I plan on doing mine with CTC which is £6000. )

Accomodation for 12 - 16 weeks for above flying course - £2500

Still have to pay my mortgage while I'm away: £2500

Instructors course: £6000 (I'll do it at my local school, so just my at home costs).

All in all:

£52,000 ish? (less if not doing the instructors rating and MCC). Plus the huge medical class 1 fee, and each renewal. It could be done cheaper in the US.

I'm taking unpaid leave from work for 4 months. This will cost me a huge amount of money too in lost earnings. (enough to pay for all the serious flying).

[Send Clowns]

Through my employer you can do the whole course, from zero hours, no medical, on minimum hours for, I reckon, a few quid under £40,000, inclusive. I do not say this to advertise, but as an example. I am certain there are many other fine schools who can match our prices, but it does seem to be a sensible figure to hang your hat on. We tend to up the estimate to £43,000 to allow for the little hiccups along the way.

The figure is lower than no sponsors as he has chosen some high-cost options, like the most expensive MCC I have seen!

If you have some hours already you can cut down a little, say £100 per hour as a ballpark counting up to 50 hours dual, 100 PIC.

Good luck, it's well worth it!

[GusHoneybun]

Thought I'd add my tuppence worth aswell from the other end of the training.

PPL: Started flying in New Zealand whilst there on work. So the living costs were negligable. Cost for PPL + Night Rating + 90 hrs TT = £4000

Hour Building: Came back to sunny ol blighty, bought a share in an aircraft that became both my best friend and nemesis. Cost £2500 for a share. 85 hours at £40, £50 a month for two years, plus numerous expensive annuals :(. Came to a grand total of £7580. I did sell my share and make back £1500, so in the end we will call it £6000. (Running Total = £10000). Was working so negligable living costs again.

ATPL Theory: 8 months full time at around £700 a month living costs (thank you london :{ ). Cost £2450, plus 15 exam sittings at £50 a pop, cost a total of £8800. (Running Total = £18800).

CPL: Last summer. Opted for the non multi option. Done with 15 hours complex and 10 hours simple. Course cost a shade over £4000, took just under a month so living costs £700. One skills test and a partial resit (don't mention circuits to me ever ) plus aircraft hire was a cool £1400 :{. Oh, and £185 to the CAA for licence issue. Total £6280 (Running Total = £25080).

FI: Last summer. Done again in one month and 30 hours. Course was £5400, plus £700 living costs and about £250 for test and a/c hire. And the obligatory CAA fee (£100 i think) came to £6450. (Running Total = £30530).

Throw in a couple of medicals, plus an initial so another £600. (Running Total = £31130).

Finally Started earning some money after that.......

ME/IR: Jan this year: Done in 50 hours on the nail (thanks to the school, who were nothing short of fantastic), including 26 hours multi IR, 6 hours multi for the MEP plus CAA test fee and all landing charges came to a whooping total of £14000. (Running Total = £45130).

If you could have got some charitable person to cover my living costs, the actual training work out at £38000, but i was fortunate and didn't need to touch my contingency money

I have never sat down and worked out how much this has cost me over the years. I think I need to go and sit in a darkened room for a while. :uhoh:

[Flypuppy]

If you are looking for ideas on pay and who is/is not recruiting then take a look at www.ppjn.com There is a lot of useful information on that site.

[englishal]

Ahhhh the fabled sponsored route
Ooh no sir ;)

Nah, the way I was refering to was the conversion route. Before you all scoff, and gawfar and tell me what a waste of time this is:D think about it.

A PPL with 150hrs can go to JAA ATPL(Frozen if there is such a thing), including FAA ME CPL/IR for £12,000 INCLUDING the conversion. Add £6000 if you don't have the PPL and 150 hrs yet.

So for less than £20 grand (plus ATPL ground exams though) you can effectively go from zero to ATPL via the conversion route.

Dunno why more people don't do it, maybe I'm just tight fisted or something ;)

Good luck!
EA

[Send Clowns]

Probably, English, because it rarely costs that little in reality. Working for an FTO we see people who have tried this route. I have a friend and former student of mine who, despite being an instructor with CPL/IR in the US, took the full UK IR course instead of the conversion because he did not feel his training was up to standard to get the IR on 15 hours. Probably 50 hours is more than most will need, but 15 hours is a lot less. The conversion is designed for people with some instrument experience, having had a flying career elsewhere, not really for people who have only done the US IR course and nothing else.

There have been complaints in this forum from students at other schools who have come back here and been told by their instructors that the training they have had in the US has been as good as useless, the course has ended up more expensive by this route.

Since in your scheme you are suggesting a conversion for people with no flying in UK airspace and no real time under their belts even the CPL conversion would take some time. At that level of experience I would advise people that they should not count on taking less than 15 hours to be of a standard to pass the CPL skills test.

[englishal]

What you say is true, and an FAA IR holder expecting to convert in 15 hours is unlikely. I also agree there have been complaints about some of the "CAA approved" IR schools essentially training IR students to US procedures and tolerances and expecting them to come up to scratch in 20 hours or so in UK.

However there is a new breed of training organisations opening in the USA, operated by JAR people. There is no need to be CAA approved as all flight tests are carried out in the UK. Becasue these places are run by JAA people who know the conversion system, and the training is carried out to JAA procedures and tolerances even though under the FAA system, then conversion is a straight forward matter.

The key to going down this route is to ensure you ARE trained to UK procedures and not just let loose under the FAA system (which is essentially what a lot of the CAA approved IR schools do). The two systems are substantially different, I'm not saying one is better than the other, just different.

I know one school who advertise that they can take a PPL who has 150 hrs or so to JAA ATPL (inc FAA CPL/IR(ME) ) for around £12,000. Assuming some of the 150hrs have been done in the UK then your point about the CPL conversion may not apply. If they do really know and understand the conversion process then it seems a reasonable route to take. I know one guy who went this route with this particular school and he converted first time, CPL and IR in the minimums at a place in Scotland.

Anyway, its something worth considering before anyone chucks £40,000 into the pot.

Cheers
EA

[Send Clowns]

It certainly can be done on minimum times, my caution was against thinking it might be typical. The advertised price will be for minimums, it always is.

[WannaleaveRR]

Folks,

I'd like to express my sincere thanks to everyone for taking the time to compose these and all the other responses! :D

Your aid is much appreciated!

Cheers!

WLRR

[ravenx]

I'll add some info too.

One of the things to remember is that it is entirely possible to go well over budget on a lot of these figures - and of course schools can only quote minimum hours because they don't know how well you will do.

Although I managed to pass all the ATPLS first time round and live at home while I did it, I kinda ******ed up on the rest.

15 hours extra on the CPL and still managed to partial it, got it second time round

15 hours extra on the IR and managed to cock that up in grand style this very day. Not too sure whether I'm going to have another go because it's all really starting to get to me at the moment.

The other problem is of course your age. I don't want to start one of these never ending threads about "I'm this old will I ever get a job" because people of all ages do get jobs. However, (and I don't have this officially but it would be good if someone from these airlines could comment and correct me if I'm wrong) it would be wise to realise that flybe have set an age limit for non type rated pilots of 32, britannia is 30 and CTC McAlpine 35 (and they recruit and train for easyjet and ryanair).

Someone told me I was too old at 38 - wish I'd bloody listened now

[Malc]

I'd suggest that sitting a GAPAN aptitude test is invaluable, before you start parting with the hard-earned cash. This will give you an indication of whether you're mentally suited to be a pilot, and the Class 1 medical indicates whether it's physically viable to pursue it.

These are 2 pretty good criteria to use to base your judgement on.

A healthy dose of optimism that it will all work out in the end & you'll get a job is another.