Virgin Blue Direct Entry Cabin Supervisors

[airport reserve]

Was just wondering how the direct entry cabin supervisors have slotted in at VB.

If you have flown with them how did they go?

Are they being given a fair go by other crew?

Must be pretty daunting to be thrown in the mix, especially when working with people who may have been overlooked for a C.S. position.

Will be interested to hear some views

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

A number of the direct entry CS's were sacked.

Apparently more interested in the EBA and the union than the training.

Too bad.

NEXT!

[jupiter2]

Jet Black.....
Yes, you are correct.
There were more than several persons dismissed during & in their final days of training.
Only two were ex AN.
Actually, it was not about bringing old attitudes with them or the FAAA.
However, a case is being pursued now against the company, which will certainly involve state industrial mediation regarding the way this was handled.

[QF skywalker]

What on earth happened ? Are Virgin blue admitting the hiring of non experienced f/a's as cabin supervisors was wrong ?

[flytheplanemay]

Someone fill us in!

I thought the VB recruitment process was supposed to be really tough. Why were these people sacked????

[belle7]

I have spoken with a couple of the direct entry c/s's (with flying experience) and they are unfortunately getting a hard time from some (not all) crew. They seem quite capable to do the job as they wouldn't have passed their line check if the IFD's didn't think they where ready for it. I don't know how the non-experienced c/s's are going, haven't heard.

I suggested that it may be that those giving them the hard time are the ones that may have missed out on a promotion. Yes two have left the company as they "didn't furfill the requirements of the Virgin Blue culture". That is as much as I know.

[ditzyboy]

Just imagine being concerned about your EBA (read 'WORKING CONDITIONS) and your union :\

I think Virgin would be the first to complain when crew didn't fufil their obligations under the EBA (not being contactable etc...). Yet Virgin is upset that crew are taking an active interest in their working environment early on.

If more crew adopted this attitude morale (and prodictivity) would increased 1000 times. Virgin would treat ALL their staff better and it you would find sick leave would drop and work would become fun. You would also find you would be asked to do less 'favours' for the company while getting NOTHING back.

I agree that trouble makers are a pain but enforcing your rights that the company has agreed to (!!) in the Award IS NOT COMPLAINING! The company has conciously and legally agreed to everything in you award. To not enforce it is selling yourself short.

Being interested in enforcing your rights under the agreement between you and the company. Oh - the audacity! Seriously it is about self respect. Don't think for a second a company doesn't laugh at how much you undermine your own conditions by operating outside the Award.

Thank you :D

[34R]

Not quite sure what you are on about ditzyboy.

Are you referring to VB's attempt to hire outside normal promotional avenues?

[ditzyboy]

34R -
Virgin can do as they wish with Supervisor position. They obviously would have applied stricter criteria than for Cabin Crew positions.

My rant was in relation to Jet Black Monaro's comment regarding intimidation from Virgin management which stems down through Operations / Crewing and Supervisors to operate outside an award to which the company has agreed to.

[Inflight BBQ's]

Hmmm... Not too sure about where you get the idea that morale is low at VB, Ditzy.

The vast majority of crew that I fly with love their job and wouldn't trade it for quids. You do of course get the occasional oxygen theif that wants to tell you that life is terrible and the company's shafting them, but after a brief review of the EBA with them they quite often are humbled about being inaccurate.

Everyone likes to appear "in the know" and give-off an air of having all the info. It's easy, all you need to do is start something with your crew in the galley and eventually, after others have added their bit, you have concrete evidence that the company is going to fold at the end of this financial year and that they have the rights to the deeds on all of their employee's homes and Superannuation Funds

Then, inevitably, someone finds out that this is not the case, then (hopefully) questions the person that told them only to hear in reply... "Oh well that's just what I was told". Ask them by who? "Oh it was just someone on one of my last trips, can't remember exactly" Sound familiar?

Ditzy, to save one's own credibility, why not hold an individual view on these matters. If you discover that it is, indeed, your own morale that is suffering, perhaps you'd better re-evealuate your position. I honestly don't think that the company is trying to intimidate it's staff. You do sound a little bitter in your post so perhaps is has done so with some, unintentionally?

In regards to the crew "adopting this attitude". I think alot have tried to, the problem is that they've tried to do so without educating themselves first. This leads to people thinking that they've been short-changed, when in MOST cases, they have not. If they did their homework first, they wouldn't even need to question themselves, or waste other peoples time asking them stupid questions that we all have access to the answers to.

IMHO, Morale at VB is not low. How could it be with the likes of the ever smiling, shiny-happy Belle7! (U Know I Luv ya Belle!)
:D :D :D

Direct entry CS's?

Have had the pleasure of working with 2 so far. Both completely capable and competent. Lovely people and in posession of an exceptional comprehension of all (and sometimes more) than is required. But that is only 2. The others? Well I'll make my mind up when I work with them. No other fair way to do it.

These folks have simply applied for a job that was advertised. They didn't move in with the view that they've "beaten" anybody else to a position. I'm sure that if they kept on promoting crew that were unsuitable, then you'd be complaining about that, and probably SUGGESTING that they hire externally.

----"Don't think for a second a company doesn't laugh at how much you undermine your own conditions by operating outside the Award."

!!!THEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT YOU!!!

Honestly folks, why worry about anything that is not yet, and ay never become, a problem. If you remain calm and deal with problems only as they arise, your life, in all aspects will seem much simpler

[GalleyHag]

Yes I'm sure your income reflects what the FAAA negotiated for you on behalf of all Virgin Blue cabin crew.

But by all means feel free to work outside your EBA and negotiate directly with your employer, but dont expect the protection of your EBA when it comes to duty hour limitations, salary, allowances, days off etc or FAAA assistance if something goes wrong when you voluntarily worked outside EBA conditions.

I bet you would be knocking down the FAAA's door if Virgin Management asked you to work 30 days straight on less money than your fellow crew because "I am in this for me and for my employer - not you or that rabble of a union".

You cant have your cake and eat it I'm afraid. Therefore hand back all those allowances, days off and your fortnightly salary as this was negotiated by the FAAA and is part of an EBA to which you feel you are above.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Too right GalleyHag!

JBM - just wait till one day, one day, when management turns on you. It will be when you least expect it. I've seen many people pulled up for the smallest, most insignificant of so called 'breaches' and face the consequences - and these were people who THEN bleated about "But I've helped the company out so often...why did they do this to me?"

One way street these days JBM.

My work experience is that the loudest union supporters are usually a/the poorest performers at work who feel life owes them something or b/ someone who the company has has to counsel over something and feel like they need a union to protect themselves from their own poor discipline and work ethic.


Wrong JBM. Maybe that's been your experience at VB - I don't know, never worked there. I'd be retracting that statement, as it's an awfully bad generalisation on a group of dedicated, hard working people that do a great deal for Flight Attendants in all airlines, with a majority of their personal time taken up in improving the position of their colleagues in the industry!

Without the FAAA, Virgin Blue crew would have been on individual contracts. On less money, and with less protection than an EBA. Oh - and who needs permanent employment? Why not casuals - as in, an ENTIRE workforce of casuals...much cheaper (hope you're reading Patrick and Brett)...

It angers me when people such as you JBM carry on about the FAAA, when you're more than happy with the pay and conditions the union has negotiated for you!

Perhaps you'd like to negotiate for yourself a nice, flexible little contract (as opposed to a little EBA) directly with the company. Please tell us what you get offered. I'd be thrilled to read all about it!

[Qwannas]

JBM

Pretty STUPID comment, really.

Your "income" doesnt "reflect that give and take" - it reflects what the FAAA has worked and fought very hard for. YOU and your colleauges. But let me guess, you wouldnt be a paying Union Member, right? Just sit back and reap those benefits tho, wont you?

When you have flown for a little longer than what you have, you will appreciate the FAAA being there to support you. And dont go trying to convince me that it is longer than 12 months because I will NEVER beleive you (all you newies at VB have this same attitude about your company AND the Union when you have been there for only 10 minutes :rolleyes: )

It is interesting tho... People at VB either love the place or hate it. There is just no inbetween. Start out - fresh and passionate. Finish up - burnt out and frustrated. Life span - short and sweet. Just the way VB like it!!

I have met individuals who are clearly over the job and should just do everyone a favour, including themselves, and leave. Life's too short to bitch about how bad your job is.
Remember your own words. The way VB run their business you, too, will be there one day. (And probably sooner than youre hoping) It is inevitable.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Oh great JBM...you've upset the Queenslanders too. NOW you'll cop it.

[smile]

Wow !!! Didn't take long for this thread to plunge into the murky "my company is better and we know more about this business than you do" swamp did it.

Lets all just agree to disagree. Remember that QF and DJ are two TOTALLY different types of companies and the union looks after each according to thier needs.
I have never worked for Qantas so I can't comment on what the union does for those of you who do-- however a quick look on the union website shows a VERY regular amount of communication between the members and the union. I am guessing that there a some very dedicated representitives who make this happen.
Our union representives at Virgin are just as dedicated however somewhat smaller in numbers. We also have a much smaller membership base and a much lower rate of communication. I have been a member since the first opportunity I had to join, but I must admit that in the past two years i have been lucky to receive two maybe three lots of communication from them ( all around our last EBA negotiation time). This small amount of communication does make you wonder if they are still out there!!

Before this thread gets any worse lets take it back to what it was originally about -- the direct entry cabin supervisors at Virgin Blue.

[DJ_Fly_Boi]

I can only comment on the 4 Direct Entry CS's that I have had the pleasure of dealing with, - I love them - they seem to have fitted in straight away - 2 are ex AN and I think the other 2 were from OS airlines - they are dedicated to their jobs and they are having fun - which is what Virgin is all about! One of them told me that she was still getting used to the different culture - but that would happen whenever you changed carriers.

They seem to have fitted in okay - although I hate to say it but I think some - only a few of our crew are giving them a hard time.

One of them is not the normal 'age' that everyone one identifies as being the Virgin norm - and if she is reading this - welcome aboard - I loved working with you and I wish that more of our crews could have the fun and happy disposition that you have.

To be honest - the only ones that dont seem happy about it - are the ones that have been turned down for the position and those that dont work for the company.

[GalleyHag]

Smile

I dont think anyone was comparing airlines at all.

You answer all your own questions about communication. You are smaller, lower rate of membership and you are a different operation.

In 2004 QF short haul crew have received communication from the FAAA on the following issues:

Hotels, Crew Complements, Flexible work arrangements, CSM Review, International Flying, Jetstar Operations and the Divisional Structure. Maybe there are a few more about minor issues but my point being out of all that communication the only one that would also effect Virgin would maybe be hotels.

Of course they are still out there. If you want more information about issues effecting Virgin Blue crew from the FAAA just e-mail or call. You need to be proactive as well not just sit back and complain about them.

[ditzyboy]

Inflight BBQ -
You are absolutely correct. What I said was an opinion. To which I am entitled. It was based on my discussion with people who have or do fly with DJ. They just have a lot of gripes. I guess they did not actually say "Morale is low..." Again just my opinion based on the comments I have received. I have honestly heard more bad comments than good. Honestly. Though we as Australians are always quick to point out what is wrong with a given situation.

I should have made have made that clearer. I apologise. Will revisit my Effective Communication notes ;)

Also there is nothing wrong with my morale. You are of course entitled to your opinion. As you are so big on credibility how did you reach your opinion? Have you observed me being disinterested at work or not being a team player or not having a genuiene interest in the needs of my customers? My morale is just fine. :O

DJ Fly Boi -
I think I may know who you are talkiing about. I have had the privilege of working with her in her past life. She is a great woman with much passion and experience to offer. Sadly others are put off and threatend by this...

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

Qwannas and other union sympathisers

I am of an age that I have held numerous jobs both unionised and not, and have also worked under individual contracts.

I actually find working under an EBA does not allow me the flexibility to increased my income based on performance. Whether I am a star performer or a lazy dog, I get paid the same with no recognition. Recognition from management I have heard many unionists crave.

Under previous individual employment contracts I have had, my performance has been able to be recognised and my pay and conditions have reflected that. Others around me who dragged the chain, well their pay and conditions reflected that too.

I do not need to hide behind a union to protect my wages and conditions. I have total belief in my employability and if I am not happy I will walk and find somone who will pay me what I think I'm worth. I have done this thrice in my career and improved my conditions of all occasions. On the other hand however I have seen this union defend fellow crew members whose actions did not deserve defense, but deserved the sack.

My point being in all this, that the same old union diatribe about bread and water for all under individual employment contracts keeps getting dragged out because it threatens the unions very existence. A union by definition is a collective of employees so no collective, no union. And it's not just the FAAA but all unions who drag this out. Until I started flying, I didn't realise there were still so many people out there with such unionist views. It's like being back in the 60's!!

Finally as for enjoying my wages and conditions without being a unionist, of course, why wouldn't I. I would've tried the job whether it be EBA or individual contract. And when I am burnt out and over it or angry at the company or snipy at the pax or feel I'm not being paid enough or the world owes me something that the union will get for me, I WILL LEAVE.

I might even get a job with QF !

[Mr Seatback 2]

JBM

Congratulations on a mature post. Well thought out and worthy of a response I feel.

I, like other 'union sympathisers' you mentioned, have worked under both EBA's and individual contracts. From my perspective, individual contracts offer far less protection for employees over EBA's.

Sure, like most FA EBA's, there is no strict 'recognition' awards for crew. However, if you deem working hard = more money, than why not consider the Flexibilities system that the FAAA have worked with Qantas Short Haul crew to receive...whereby the more work they do, the more money they receive. Not all EBA's are inflexible. Unfortunately, given how young Virgin Blue is, you are not at that stage yet. But you do have Preferential Bidding as a reserved matter, which will allow those who want to earn extra dollars to do so in the future.

Flexibility is in the eye of the beholder JBM.

Uniquely, you seem to link recognition and performance to pay and conditions. Not an unusual position, since it is this position that affirms the existence of individual contracts. Quite rightly too that those who work hard are rewarded as such.

Unfortunately, not all companies apply fairness with respect to individual contracts. I learnt very early on in my career, from witnessing the treatment of fellow employees, just how divisive individual contracts can be. Parity and transparency, with respect to how certain individuals are rewarded versus those who are victimised, doesn't always exist.

It is for this reason that EBA's are whole-heartedly endorsed by people such as myself as they afford everybody a common ground, built on fairness and equity - as opposed to favouritism and nepotism, two aspects that always rear their ugly head in contract negotiations that I have witnessed (and there have been many).

The union (with respect to the FAAA) exists to serve the interests of all members. Whilst you may not agree with the ability for individuals to be provided representation in matters you feel are 'sackable', this is their right under procedural fairness, and to some extent, common law. Irrespective of whether the union represents them, or an outside party, facts are that any individual can seek representation in matters relating to their employment. Whilst I'm sure we've all felt from time to time that "so-and-so should have been sacked", there are occasionally aspects of any allegation that not everyone in the crew are privy to. Don't be so quick to judge JBM - it might be you being judged one day.

The FAAA provides representation given its' unique knowledge and background in all matters relating to the Flight Attendant role. Believe me JBM, if you were being treated unfairly or harshly (ie. being made the example of in front of your peers), what would you do - especially if you wished to stay at VB? Would you:
a) Fight the matter by yourself, believing honesty alone would see you through; or
b) Fight the matter using representatives who have had many case histories dealing with similar matters, across the industry at large?

Chances are you'd try to use as much 'ammunition' as possible to protect yourself. It's human nature. And no, you may not necessarily use the union - but it's a resource, and one that is available to every FA. Whether or not you agree with it's fundamental priniciples, or agree with whom it represents, is your choice. But when your head is on the chopping block, human nature and the will to survive (whether or not you acknowledge it now, or in the future) will kick in.

In response to your paragraph relating to unions being scared of individual contracts, yes - you are right. Conversely, however, you earn the money and operate under the conditions from these union negotiations. These standards, if you will, have been fought for long and hard for many decades. The hard part in today's age is maintaining them. Choosing to go to an individual contract would inevitably see your money and conditions fall. Not always the case in every job (such as sales or finance), but historically proven as far as Cabin Crew are concerned.

Ask the Qantas/Adecco kids in AKL and BKK if their individual contracts are better than the Long Haul EBA in Australia. Facts are, they're not. Like ALL contracts I have witnessed, they are without a doubt ALWAYS worse than EBA's. And as flexible as they are, the flexibility generally works only one way - the company's.

What about the 2-week contract crew that were provided to Qantas by MAM Long Haul strikebreakers? You know, the ones that were promised permanent jobs, CSM positions, future work...the ones that inevitably received nothing at the end of that 2 weeks. They were promised the world and given only what their contract stated. Like most people I know who've operated under such schemes around the world.

You say you will leave if it all gets too much (for reasons you listed in your post). Would you? You have some of the country's best conditions for a job that, essentially, requires no tertiary education. You receive 10 days off a month, 6 weeks annual leave p/a, generous salary and entitlements, overtime, rest period protections...there are graduate jobs in many fields (including medical) that don't provide these kinds of benefits, or pay structures. I'm not denigrating your own education JBM - far from it. I just believe that if push came to shove, you'd weigh up what you were leaving behind.

I have two changing careers books in front of me. One of them asks the reader to list the benefits they receive in their current job/industry, and the benefits offered in other industries. I did a study on this, and given my own education and experience, I am without a doubt far better off operating under an FAAA EBA than anything else offered to me either in the industry or outside of it. There are benefits that we receive as Cabin Crew you just don't receive anywhere else - unless, of course, you used salary sacrifice.

In short JBM, be careful for what you wish for. You might just get it.

[Qwannas]

Performance and Recognition? What drivel.

Hello? Let’s have a little reality check here. You’re a Flight Attendant. (Not a Sales Rep!) Your job is the provision of excellent service and safety, whilst representing your company in a manner to which they desire. What measurable part of your role would you like to be constantly assessed upon in order to receive your performance based pay increase (hopefully) each year? Perhaps it would be your brilliant ability to work well within a team environment with your other chain dragging, lazy dog co-workers? I can just envisage the morale problems then!

So! You have walked away from your previous jobs (thrice times before), landed yourself this great job as a Flight Attendant (employed under an excellent EBA already negotiated for you by the “recognition craving unionists”) AND you improved your working/pay conditions? Gosh! How did YOU manage to do that I wonder?

Maybe in your previous roles you did not require a union or an EBA? Well, when you have been flying for a little bit longer than what you have and enjoy a broader knowledge and understanding of your role, the industry, CASA Regs, fatigue and safety then will you see how very necessary it is to have an EBA.

Good luck. Happy flying.

I might even get a job with QF !
Right Lads?! Yeah RRRRRight! :E

[ferris]

I WILL LEAVE
That may be an option when you are young, footloose and fancy-free, but as you get older, you will realise the folly of this line of argument.
If you have had anything to do with managers/business owners, you would realise they can be quite ruthless, with quite self-interested views on fairness and equity.
Whilst withdrawal of your labour (quitting) is your ultimate (and often ONLY) weapon as a contractor, isn't it ironic that unions do exactly the same thing, only in an organised and less catastrophic (to your employment) manner?

I am a contractor (and a union sympathiser).