A question with questionable answers!

[Dan Kelly]

Many of the posts and some of the threads on Dunnunda are critical of pilots who work for Virgin, Impulse, Jetstar and NJS, due to the belief that these people should have said no to the offer of a job flying an RPT jet around the country, so as to save the wages and conditions of the elite, or perceived elite, in Qantas and the former Ansett, some of whom it seems, believe that they are the ones entitled to perform this work.

I'd be interested to know how many of you who hold this belief, would reject an offer from Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin/NJS if you were still flogging around in the bush in a light twin with no chance of being employed by Qantas (or formerly Ansett)?

Qantas won't look at me. I don't have experience commensurate with age as I started flying late. I don't have HSC and don't want to go back to school to get it. I don't want to fly long haul but I do love my jet command. :O

I have accepted a job with one of the on the nose employers, with no regrets.

[TheNightOwl]

Dan: If you believe that you have done the right thing, and have nothing for which to reproach yourself, why the angst and the need to post? The fact that you have obtained a jet command, without the need for the educational quals demanded by the other RPT operators surely should be enough to give you confidence that you are up to the job, or am I missing something here?

Good on you, go for it!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[fartsock]

Dan,


I do not know anyone if QF mainline who has a problem with anyone furthering thier careers. The vast majority of us have worked jobs that were lesser paid in order to gain experience, and understand what it is like to be stuck in some GA ****hole trying to get up and out. I don't believe that any of us would wish that on anyone else

What we do have a problem with is the Impulse pilots, offering unsolicited, to undercut mailine by 50% in order to secure the jetstar contract. This, in my and many other mainline pilots minds is tantamount to scabery, but probably does not meet the exact definition due to the fact that this action did not occur during an industrial dispute.

We also have a problem with Qantas itself carrying on like a pork chop over selection standards (which you note did not prevent you from becoming a Jet pilot - good luck to you) / 4 cyclics per year, 2 EP days and a whole lot of bull**** to become a captain when it is then prepared to sacrifice these standards (which are imposed by flight ops management - not AIPA or individual line pilots) just because someone offers to do the same job for less.

I have seen a document which identifys that somewhere in the region of 50% of the current Impulse pilots have previously been rejected by QF. Suddenly they are now acceptable because they are cheap.

Either there is a standard, or there is not. If there isnt, thats fine by me - but the hypocrisy and double standards of QF grates.

regards

FS

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Fartsock. A well thought out and un emotional post. I think that perhaps alot of the Mainline pilots angst should be directed towards your elected leaders. I would be asking why was the cold shoulder given with such vigor, to Impulse pilots, when the initial take over occured. Being left to " fend for themselves " didnt seem to worry to many mainliners at the time. As Dan pointed out, families dont care who employs you.

If union membership was allowed would the current situation exist? Most likely not.

To blame an individual is short sighted and just what the big man wants.

Cheers DM

[spinout]

So can I take it that Qantas mainline would support the Regionals if as reported, NJS start operating small jets over Qantas mainline/regional routes... left vacant by impulse or after the regionals grow a port to that which would support a small jet?

:mad:

[fartsock]

Spin,

Yes I would support that - the decision for AIPA not to cover you guys was made by a president two removed in the past.

Remember though, the inability of you guys to access a progression path into Jetstar / Mainline is a policy of the airline, not the union or the line pilots.

We have been shown to be toothless on every other issue, unfortunately I do not believe regional pilot employment would be any different.


FS

[Whiskery]

Unfortunately, AIPA erred by not getting the Impulse pilots on board when Gerry McGowan got the colliwobbles and sold out to Qantas. Instead, AIPA was hoping the problem would go away.

This is a classic case of what goes around comes around. The sad thing is, the situation is rapidly heading for an impasse and the current pilot in fighting and name calling must have Dixon rubbing his hands together with glee.

Dan you did what any pilot (QF mainline pilots included) would do if faced with the same situation. It may be time for AIPA to start assessing the regional pilots position because I'll bet this will be Dixons next "recruiting pool".

[proplever]

Dan,

I would guess that your post is directed towards the likes of me, because I seem to be one on the most vocal critics, particularly the Impulse guys.

A lot of my thoughts have already been sumarised nicely by FS. I have no problem with anyone on an individual level. Indeed, NJS have been around for longer than I have been flying, so I have no angst with them. The VB guys have well and truly improved their lot, so all due respect to them.

BUT Impulse. They come along, and offer themselves at a pathetically low rate. They make ABSOLUTELY ZERO attempt to improve their pay and conditions. ZERO. NAUGHT. NIL.

Let me say that I do not believe that they are taking away from me. I will eventually retire to the 744 never to be seen again. But other's in current and future generations will suffer from the apparent indifference of these people.

I refuse to accept that they could not have bargained for a better deal, because they did not even try. And this cannot be blamed on AIPA, Uncle Geoff or anyone else. Responsibility lies directly with these 140 odd pilots, and they must wear it.

A further point. What about the other QF Link pilots, many of whom have been toiling away for years. The Impulse guys come along, having been flying B1900's just four years ago, and "jump the que". Why are these Impulse guys any more entitled to this flying than other QF subsidiaries?

The whole situation simply sux.

[FluffyBunnyFeet]

Oh, for Pharque's sake Pratlever, get a life.... You're letting this Impulse hatred take years off your life!

You've been arguing from the same subjective point of view ever since I can remember - you don't have all the facts (do I recall some past predictions as erroneous as they were bold?) and seem unwilling to even remotely consider that there could be another side to the story.

You claim "Absolutely Zero" attempt was made etc etc. Once again, you're only in posession of 'facts' that suit your pre-conceptions!

You are correct about the pay offer being 'no change' - but neglect to mention that it's for the remainder of this EBA's life only (15 months-ish). You also neglect a couple of other important considerations. The pay etc offer was made subject to the guarantee that the 30-odd redundant 1900 pilots were re-instated prior to hiring externally. Also, the offer was conditional on the current list not having to fork out $$'s for A320 endorsements. Do you imagine we won't be looking carefully at what happens over the next year, what promises are kept and which are ignored before negotiating on the next EBA?

Now from the bias of my perspective I saw some positives in all of this - sure I'd have loved more coin straight up, but I had to respect the IPC for making the redundant guys their first priority. Looking after your mates ahead of your own selfish interests is admirable, and something that AIPA could well learn from...

It's very easy (particularly from your perspective) to say the IPC should have held out for more, but who's to say a greenfields wasn't an option? You may not think so, but given the 'accuracy' of you oracle-like predictions in the past, would you have gambled your career on it? Honestly? That's what we were looking at, with some last minute 'offer' of AIPA 'support' to cling to...

Try to put aside your vitriol just for a moment and put yourself in our shoes, add a mortgage plus kids to the equation - what would you have done as an individual amongst 140 odd?

When you've finished that, try re-reading Dan's post - he's asking a question. Instead of flogging your hobby horse off into the sunset, try answering it.

PS It's in the 2nd paragraph, and ends in a '?'....

[proplever]

Hello Fluffy. Nice reply. Good to see some intelligent debate, although you do accuse me of vitriol, then launch some of your own against me. Some would suggest hypocracy. But I won't.

I'd be interested to know how many of you who hold this belief, would reject an offer from Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin/NJS if you were still flogging around in the bush in a light twin with no chance of being employed by Qantas (or formerly Ansett)?

This is the very fair question that Dan has posed, and my reply is this: Of course I would not reject such an offer. But the point is moot, because I'm not flogging around the bush in a light twin, and Fluffy, just remember, that you and your Impulse mates weren't either. So the question is irrelevant with regards to your argument.

The problem here is that ALL of the Impulse guys are looking at this from a very narrow perspective. They are ALL saying "well, what would you have done?" and "we had no choice".

Fair enough for a little while. But my questions are on a wider level, and Fluffy, you haven't answered this. Nor have your mates DM, LGR or adama.

The question is this; Have you as a group, weakend and undermined the pay and conditions of airline pilots in Australia?

(Edited to repair incorrect Quote brackets - not censored! :yuk: W)

[amos2]

This is the Impulse thread by another name!

let's see how long this lasts! :*

[Dan Kelly]

TheNightOwl

No angst at all.

Some curiosity but also an attempt to make the point that I think many people on the forum expect those not at the top of the pecking order to make a sacrifice that I don't believe they would make in similar circumstances.

Fartsock

I don't know what the Impulse pilots did or didn't offer. Couldn't their offer though be seen as an attempt to protect their positions in the absence of wider community assistance, rather than seen as undercutting QF by 50%?

Maybe 50% of Impuls pilots were rejected by QF. In reality that is no reflection on those same pilot's abilities. I know of one Impulse captain, who I had the pleasure of training at abinitio and commercial stages, years ago. In my opinion he was one of the most naturally gifted and professional pilots I encountered over several thousands of instructional hours.

I haven't seen him since the 80's but can't imagine that he wouldn't make an excellent QF pilot, which he is now by virtue of the Impulse buyout. The point is, his rejection simply shows the falbility of the selection process.

proplever

Directed not only at you but those who share your view against the poor cousins looking after their own interests.

You say my original question is moot because you are not bug smashing. But that is the whole point of the question. I'd bet that if you were bug smashing and QF rejected you, and the only offer of a jet position was on an Impulse 717, you'd jump at the chance.

Amos

Not an Impulse thread at all. It started out with a statement and a serious question, which most respondants have not answered.

[Lurk R]

I have seen a document which identifys that somewhere in the region of 50% of the current Impulse pilots have previously been rejected by QF. Suddenly they are now acceptable because they are cheap.

Fartsock - out of curiosity, was this 50% rejected because they just couldn't fly an aircraft to save themselves or just that they were more than fine, only problem was that there were guys ahead of them who were better?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Nice reply Fluffy Bunny Feet. As you pointed out. The IPC had the balls to look after the whole group. That is, actually giving a fat rats about the redundant guys. None have been left out or behind. Not too many concerns from the Regional mates when these guys found them selves out of work. Out of 33 pilots 1 was taken into Eastern. Of course progression is a big issue for the regional group now. I guess we are ok now there are jets on the VQ books. But then again that would be a cynical outlook.

As stated the current EBA has just over a year to run. After a couple of years, the pay rates will rise to more than 150K. For a skipper. It is my understanding that retention bonus might be paid as well.

Proplever, your arguments just seem to go around in circles. The endless whinging, whinning and vitriol only highlight your ignorance and lack of respect for anyone other than your group.

Despite your affirmations on this and other threads, you are not the moral gaurdian of Qf operations and there for do not have to have anything justifyed to you by Impulse guys. Thankfully, Impulse has a strong, straight shooting and team oriented pilot group. Yes thats right propy, our representitive body actually looks after our interests as a group. A good example for you to follow I think.

Cheereo DM

[Keg]

Your last paragraph is an interesting one DM and I think part of what Proplever is getting at!

Yep, I've got no qualms that the IPC has looked after YOUR best interests (in the short term) but is somewhat short sighted. I'm sure that the AIPA exec of a few years ago felt that they too were looking after OUR best interests however a few years down the track we see how short sighted that thinking was.

This then is the issue. You guys have looked after yourselves in the short to medium term but may have weakened the issue for the longer term. In short, on a 'logic' level, you may have done EXACTLY what AIPA did when we excluded you guys a few years back. You looked out for your concerns without a view of the bigger (and longer term) picture! Time will tell on whether the Dash 8 guys (or insert other pilot group here) offer to fly the A340/777 on J* minus 5%.

Anyway, it's water under the bridge. Unity of purpose is what serves us all now. THAT is the important issue now and into the future.

[proplever]

Thanks Keg, that was exactly my point.

YOUR best interests, DM etc, have ruined EVERYONE ELSE'S best interests for the interminable future!

You have looked after yourselves, but what about everyone else? Not one impulse pilot has answered my question, which I have asked on a number of previous threads. That is:

Have you as a group, weakened and undermined the pay and conditions of airline pilots in Australia?

And for ALL of the Impulse pilots? You people are lucky to have a job at all. If QF had simply drilled Impulse into the ground rather than buying them out from Gerry, then you would all be out of a job. Now you are all poncing around acting like you are entitled to Jetstar - as though it was yours all along? Jeez, give me a break. You were all flying B1900's just four short years ago.

And DM? Since you guys are so magnanimous, and the so called champion's of the underdog, what exactly have you done to help the other QF Link pilots? Answer = nothing. You have jumped in underneath them and selfishly looked after yourselves whilst collectively undermining the entire industry. If you can't get your mind around this very simple concept, then I just give up.

BTW Dan, I did answer your question in the affirmative in my previous reply. My reply however was more directed towards the IPG, because THOSE are the guys who are/were not getting around the countryside in light twins.

[amos2]

You're never going to get that unity of purpose Keg, and the reason why I say that is contained in your own words in para's 2&3 of your last post. :mad:

You guys will never learn!

[Kaptin M]

proplever, sounds to me as though you`re trying to pre-emptively blame the Impulse pilots for the shortcoming you obviously expect from the QF pilots, once this battle moves up a gear, and the squeeze is put on YOU.

As you have already stated, pl, the J* negotiations with the IPG is a done deal - so the question is, are YOU, proplever going to have the balls to stand up against QF management when YOUR turn (soon) comes, and STOP the rot?!
YOUR best interests, DM etc, have ruined EVERYONE ELSE'S best interests for the interminable future!So the buck will stop with YOU, proplever.
You`ve indicated many times how strongly you feel about the erosion of conditions of Oz aviation.
Your time to put up, or shut up is closer than you think - or has it been your intent all along to try to shift the blame away from YOU?

Unless ALL of the QANTAS group pilots can unify in short time, you`ll continue to be taken apart brick-by-brick, imo.

[proplever]

Jeez, Kapt. Spare me the bizarre psychoanalysis. I am but a QF Short Haul pilot. On my own I yeild very little power. I don't for an instant believe that I will somehow be held accountable for the degeneration of Australian airline pilot pay and conditions.

Furthermore, I cannot for the life of me understand how you came up with that bullsh1t you just wrote. Are you drunk?

IMO, Kapt, you should be quiet, and go back to taking your pills. On the basis of that last post, maybe even up the dosage!:yuk: :mad: :uhoh: :mad:

[*Lancer*]

Dan, Douglas etc,

The reasons you cite to justify pilots undercutting others to get the job, also apparently justifies the old adage of pilots working for free in entry-level GA.

Does wanting (or needing) a job for money, experience, or the sheer love of it, justify reducing the conditions of an entire industry? Pilots flying for next to nothing to satisfy their own interests is not healthy for anyone (including themselves) in the long term.

Having said that, if I were in the same position, I would probably have done the same thing... It's an unfortunate reality of life that people tend to look out for themselves in the near term and hope everything will sort itself in the long run. The other unfortunate reality is that in the long run the conditions (and the romance?) of the entire profession are significantly lessened.

The 'rot' that so many people refer to is clearly as much our fault as pilots (indeed, probably more our fault), as it is management's.

Will we ever be able to work as a team? Let's hope AIPA and the IPG, and even the AFAP (!!!) can get everyone in the SAME boat, rowing in the SAME direction.

Lancer

[Chimbu chuckles]

I'd be just fascinated to know what little electric connection is not being made in the brains of PL and, to a lesser extent Keg, that allows them no access to logical thought!

You people, members of a pilot's union which has NEVER looked after anyone's but their own best interest seem to think that the IPG should predicate their negotiations on what may, or may not, be in YOUR best interests or those of the wider aviation industry!!

Never in the history of the union movement has a union acted out of anything but it's members best interests...I would go so far as to suggest they would be derilect in their duties to do otherwise.

I know someone on the IPG and a more fair minded individual you'd be hard pressed to find....and I can assure you PL he's never sat in a B1900.

You people who, due more to good luck on the day than any other single thing, jagged jobs in QF seem to believe that IPG members are lesser because they didn't.

QF pilot's are not the master race, despite what you have been led to believe by some old 744 Captains.

Leadership comes from the top kiddies.

Chuck

PS: To answer DKs question........Of course they would.

[Hugh Jarse]

Gidday Douglas. You wrote:Not too many concerns from the Regional mates when these guys found them selves out of work. Out of 33 pilots 1 was taken into Eastern. Of course progression is a big issue for the regional group now. I guess we are ok now there are jets on the VQ books. But then again that would be a cynical outlook.

I have to answer this. Firstly, the pilot councils of the turboprop regionals knew nothing of the Impulse redundancies until after the event. What do you suggest they do? The problem here is that there was no communication or pre-existing relationship between the 2 pilot groups, which is IMHO could have been facilitated by union involvement. But you guys have little union representation, do you? (No, not taking a shot, just asking). This is the whole problem with the industry, whether you are Impulse, QF, Skywest, NJS or whatever. No cohesiveness or cooperation between the pilot groups.

The AFAP sits on its fat arse in Melbourne pulling 1% of our gross and leaves the real work to the individual pilot councils. I would rather pay 1% of my gross straight to our hard working Pilot Council, because, IMHO they deserve it. They represent us. And the AFAP wonders why a significant number of its members are looking at alternative representation???

But I run off at a tangent.

Anyhow:
The decision to process the redundant Impulse pilots through the regionals' recruiting process was fast-tracked ahead of external applicants (as you would know) and at a time when we needed more crews. However this was incumbent on the individuals affected actually applying for positions. How many of the 33 applied? I know for a fact that 33 did not come through stage 2 sim and interview, maybe 10. But this may have been as a result of culling at QF P&S, as the grade required was the same as external applicants. Perhaps only 10 applied? The rest? Who knows...

There are varying opinions as to the validity of P&S testing. If I were a cynical person I'd say it's unfair to place a value on a person's employability based solely on their ability to pass a P&S, just the same as selecting them based upon their ability to pay for their endorsement on a B1900/A320/whatever.

It just depends which company you aspire to work for........

Douglas, the person you write of has been a valuable member of our team, and I'll be sorry to see him go when the time comes.

I agree about the cynical outlook Douglas. Anyone who goes to Jetstar from the turboprop regionals will go as external applicants, which is fair enough IMHO. Others will disagree. We are (by design) totally separate companies after all. Progression is something we do hope for, but not necessarily into Jetstar. You overvalue your importance in the big picture.

See, no cohesiveness or cooperation between the pilot groups. We should all be having beers together trying to figure out how we can all beat the Evil Empire at its own game, instead of trying to beat each other..........:ok:

[proplever]

Hugh, what are your thoughts, and that of your colleagues with regards to the rapid advancement of the Impulse pilots.? Remember less than four years ago they were doing what you are now. Do you see the bypass of your group as reasonable?

Because whilst I know it's ancient history now, I dont believe it's right.

You people who, due more to good luck on the day than any other single thing, jagged jobs in QF seem to believe that IPG members are lesser because they didn't.

Chimbu, yeah right. So much for your argument. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[amos2]

I can't remember whether I've agreed, or disagreed, with Chuckles in the past on other matters, but on this one I certainly agree.

I remember a long retired Ansett captain MANY, MANY years ago expounding a similar view towards Qantas pilots that Chimbu has reiterated today. And for good reason!

I have no reason to believe that Qantas pilots are any different today than they were then!

You're on a hiding to nothing here Keg and Proplever!!

And well deserved it is too!! :mad:

[bitter balance]

Chimbu:

Never in the history of the union movement has a union acted out of anything but it's members best interests...I would go so far as to suggest they would be derilect in their duties to do otherwise.

The second part is 100% spot on. The first part doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.

[Keg]

Chimbu, don't misrepresent my comments. I've never claimed to be a better driver or more worthy than any other pilot who joined Qantas. I know exactly how lucky I've been. You, like a lot of others who want to paint QF drivers as deserving of being 'done over' (and ultimately long for that day), miss the point of my comments and instead play the man/ You do this using a typical journalistic trick of putting opinions that you attribute to QF drivers out in the ether in the hope that merely reading them will cause people to remember them. Never mind that they are pure b/s for 99% of the drivers that I fly with.

I expect my union to look after my best interests but not just for tomorrow, next week or next year. I want them to look after my best interests looking as long into the future as they can. My comments on page 1 reflect that point. The point I try and make (and make sure you read it this time) is that whilst the IPC may have looked after their short to medium term interests, they may well have been as equally short sighted as AIPA has shown to be in the past. A bunch of people have said that what AIPA have done over the last 10 years has resulted in the goings on of now. What I'm saying is that the actions of the IPG pilots will have serious ramifications in ten (or however many) years time when another pilot group offers to do the flying (that the J* pilot group believed that they had negotiated the company would discuss with them) at less than thier current rates.

I've not no real beef with the decision that the IPG made and unlike proplever, I'll admit that had I a similar gun to my head (and the QF group pilots may well have that as some stage in the future), then I'd do the same thing. However, the significant difference is that I'm not blind as to the possible ramifications for ALL pilot groups in the future. The DJ guys got nailed by PAC Blue, QF guys got nailed by J* because we didn't stand up to Jetconnect, etc, etc over the last ten years. Yeah, AIPA was short sighted. That doesn't mean that the IPG hasn't been as equally short sighted. I can admit AIPAs short sightedness over the last 5(ish) years, can the IPG see the same thing?

For the avoidance of doubt, you made the claim that IPG pilots were considered 'inferior' by QF crews, not me and not any other 'reputable' QF driver on this forum (The Cutest of Borg, Sopwith Pup, Eagle767, Offchocks, Lancer, etc). I disagreed with Proplever raising a similar discussion last time because I didn't feel that it served a purpose if we wanted to unite pilot groups. I said as much and the thread disappeared due to action of a Woomera. Alas, I guess this thread has shown that short sightedness still exists and that unity of purpose of the pilot groups is a harder thing to achieve then I first thought.

Sad really that ultimately, we're all after the same thing.

[*Lancer*]

Chimbu and Amos, you're absolutely right... there are some Qantas pilots that think they're superior to [insert any other pilot group here]. But you're on you're own "hiding to nothing" if you think there's anywhere near a remotely appreciable number of them, to apply that stereotype to every one of us.

For anyone that missed this:

We should all be having beers together trying to figure out how we can all beat the Evil Empire at its own game, instead of trying to beat each other..........

Well said Hugh :ok:

Lancer

[Kaptin M]

Back to Dan Kelly's original questionhow many of you..would reject an offer from Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin/NJS if you were still flogging around in the bush in a light twin with no chance of being employed by Qantas?Casting my mind back to my G.A. days - and then later to my 1990's days spent "in exile" overseas - I would have to say, "Not I." - UNLESS an issue was made of it, by the pilots and the union representing them - as was the case with CX, and in Australian aviation history, 1989.

Sufficient Australian pilots did NOT apply for the jobs during the Dispute period, to cause the Government to resort to changing Federal Law, to allow non-Australians to fill positions.
This situation was NEVER the case with the Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin Blue/NJS pilots.

It was the case with the QANDOM pilots, though - one of whom is proplever!
When DID you join QANDOM, pl?

"A well deserved hiding" - is that really what you would like to see happen, Dominic?
It may give you some personal satisfaction, but in the overall interest of the future of Australia's airline pilots, is it something you really wish for?

[proplever]

Mid 90's, Kapt. Is that somehow relevant?

[bonvol]

I think he is just checking your pedigree Proplever. Short Haul is where the majority of the unspeakables live.

[Hugh Jarse]

Hugh, what are your thoughts, and that of your colleagues with regards to the rapid advancement of the Impulse pilots.? Remember less than four years ago they were doing what you are now. Do you see the bypass of your group as reasonable What can I say? Of course everyone is disappointed or worse at what's happened. My belief is that the turboprop groups were never in the race anyway. We were told a couple of years ago (before this happened) that Sunstate/Eastern will always be turboprop operators. You can't get any clearer than that. Anyone who believes otherwise needs to take their rose coloured glasses off.

However, you have to focus on who the bad guys are here. This is the crux of the problem. QF must be pissing itself, as there's no better way of running a business than by having your labour and business groups separated, and even better still fighting/undercutting one another. This has been QF's modus operandi ever since I can remember. Pretty savvy stuff because it's working.

If you guys spent as much energy putting a unified fight against the Evil Empire as what you do against each other we wouldn't even be here now.:E

When's the pissup?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Hugh and Lancer. Very well written posts. I think the overall lesson here is that we all need to get together and orgianise a group that covers all QF affiliates. Whilst ever the infighting is allowed to propogate, as it obviously has been, nothing will be achieved.

Proplever, you could take a leaf out of the books of Hugh and some others and actually post rational adult responces/ debates. I think most people are sick of your ranting. You sound like an old record. I got a real laugh out of your comments on the thread about the runway overrun in Darwin. Chastising someone for " inapropriate comments ". You should give up posting and become a stand up comedian. Something about a pot and a black kettle I think.

Regards DM

[amos2]

I think Dominic is gonna get rather ticked off Charlie, when I tell him you think he's me! :{

[amos2]

Many years ago, an instructor mate of mine got a job with Qantas. He was only 21 at the time and over the next ten years I lost track of him. At the age of 31 he checked out in command on the classic.

The only reason I knew this was because he wrote a letter at the time to the editor of the AFAP's magazine, aquainting all of us with that fact. At the same time he pointed out that as he now had more time to spare he would be taking an active interest in the affairs of the federation to make sure the Executive didn't "stuff it up."

Needless to say, he didn't win too many friends with that comment. Equally needless to say, he never made any input into the AFAP over the remainder of his successful career with the "rat."

Anyway, some years after his letter to the Feds he was sitting in the sharp end of a classic en route to Hawaii. Halfway across the pond the F/A from the cheap seats in the back made the long trek forward to advise the F/E that one of the toilets in cretin class was u/s. The F/E made some comment along the lines of "What do you expect me to do about it?" He wasn't related to my mate I believe!!

My mate swivelled around smoothly, on his wallet in the right rear back pocket of his trousers, and enquired as to what was going on. When aquainted with the facts his comment was..."you mean, we actually provide toilets for the economy class passengers!!??"

[Dexter]

get over it amoose.
did yya miss out on qantas and never got over it? give yer tedy bear a big hug an thank yer lucky stars ya ever maid it past ppl.

[amos2]

Ah! Dexter...good to have you back with us!
Still as thick as a brick I see!! :O

[proplever]

You really think I'm funny, DM? I'm seriously flattered. Just wait until I do my Ronald Reagan impression!;) ;) ;)

[FluffyBunnyFeet]

PL, you're confusing my supposed 'vitriol' with my actual 'sarcasm' - check a dictionary some time (big book, lots of words within)

For the self-appointed moral guardian of QF wage/condition negotiation you spend an inordinate amount of effort slagging VQ/JQ, all the while ignoring Jetconnect - the mob flying 'your' shorthaul/international routes (much sought after at bid time, I believe), wearing 'your' uniforms, in 'your' aircraft, being paid rates far less than your preferred target of abuse.

I'd like you to come clean on exactly what/who happened to p!ss you off so badly re 'Pulse. Why the bias? What dastardly deed was done unto you by a 'Pulse guy/gal? Did they cut your grass socially/sexually? Owe you $'s? Or simply make you feel inadequate?

The naked subjectiveness of your rantings whenever VQ is mentioned has got me concerned that the QF tests must have a bit missing - "can the candidate analyse situations in a dispassionate, objective and rational manner whilst utilising all available sources of information?"

Thankfully there are other QF's on this forum with a far better grip on reality - ever wonder how the silent majority feel about being tarred with the same brush as you and your vocal minority?

PL, Fartsock et al, can I suggest you might try building a bridge? And get over it...

Sod on...

[proplever]

Fluffy, your insults do you no good. I couldn't care less. I pretty much think the same, if not less, of you and all your mates.

The very sorry thing about all this? You don't understand how badly you and your mates have crapped in your own nest, let alone everyone else's.

I don't expect you to run out now and throw in the towel. Really, I never even expected that you would listen to me anyway. Your collective heads are so far up your own @sses you are virtually invisible. Your group has the "take what I can right here right now" mentality which will be your undoing in the end.

One day, perhaps, Australian pilots will wake up and see what is really happenning, see the sort of people they are surrounded by. Then maybe they will do something about it.

My final word.



Promise?

Woomera

[Whiskery]

One day, perhaps, Australian pilots will wake up and see what is really happenning, see the sort of people they are surrounded by. Then maybe they will do something about it.


Would that include "talking with your feet" proplever ? If it doesn't, I would respectfully suggest you share the same sentiments as your IPG mates. :uhoh:

[proplever]

Woomera and whiskers? Yup and yup.

[LetsGoRated]

:Hugh, what are your thoughts, and that of your colleagues with regards to the rapid advancement of the Impulse pilots.? Remember less than four years ago they were doing what you are now. Do you see the bypass of your group as reasonable?

proplever really cares about the QF regionals;

posted by spinout 2nd December 2001 13:45 thats qantas for you they would rather take ansett pilots than promote pilots from their regionals!

And good old proplevers response;

posted by proplever 5th December 2001 23:47 Spinout; surely you realised that when you took your regional job, didn't you???

:ok

[FluffyBunnyFeet]

Darling Prop, not chucking a tanty/taking your bat & ball and going home I hope? Good to see you can recognise insults when they're inbound - god knows, you dish enough of them out! By the way, don't you think the line about 'crapping in own nests' is wearing a bit thin? Or do you have some sort of copyright?

Now I've just realised I neglected to answer your earlier question about weakening the position of 'Oz airline pilots. Can't have unanswered questions now, can we?

The answer is fairly short - "I don't know, only time will tell!" Things like actual overtime $'s, the results of new EBA negotiations, possible future profit sharing etc etc will become more apparant as years go by. Only then will VQ be able to be judged one way or the other. (You can't wait that long 'tho, can you?)

Another consideration might be results of J*'s hiring policy - the head IPC guy is adamant that 'Red Tail' guys will be a priority recruiting target. Wouldn't it be ironic if NJS/SAA/EAA guys end up being helped out by those VQ 'vermin' when the QF 'good guys' have only ever looked the other way? Would you still hate us then? Oh, that's right - we only "take what we can right now..." Did that bit about looking after our 1900 mates go thru to the keeper, or is it just a foreign concept to you?

Hope that answers your question, certainly it's the only answer I can give with the limited 'info I have to hand.

Now maybe you could return the favour and answer my earlier question. (Maybe you could edit that last post to be your 'penultimate word'?)

My question was what would 'ICanPassQFTestingAndYouCan'tSoThere' Proplever (aka SkyGod) have done if he were in the cheap worn out shoes of an Impulse pilot? Remember - pretend you're staring at potential redundancy, you've a mortgage & kids, there's time pressure on the decision and you know full well your "parent" company's history of ignoring it's affiliates.

I know it's an unpalatable thought process but humour me for a minute. Someone of your towering intellect is bound to have
the perfect solution close to hand! Don't be shy now, enlighten us all - what would Prop have done?

Then, and only then, you can have your nice cup of "shut the @#$% up!"

[proplever]

Nope, I've promised Woomera (et al how many of you are there anyway?).

But thanks for your attempt to address the question, fluffy. You are the first yet to do so. Nice to see that an argument can be had without playing the man, although you did give me a little curry there, didn't you?

LGR? There's a spot on 60 Minutes for you with selective cutting and pasting like that. You really are gutter filth, aren't you?

But, no comment. I'm going back to my knitting, now.

[spinout]

FluffyBunnyFeet,

Just so the IPG knows the difference between EAA, SSA and NJS,

Both EEA and SSA are wholly owned just like Impulse and are therefore Qantas employees.

NJS however is not owned by Qantas and as such their pilots are not Qantas employees. NJS contract to Airlink which is wholly owned.

I don’t have a problem with NJS, I would prefer that all Red Tailed aircraft (as you put it) were operated by employees of Qantas not contractors.

I also find it hard to understand Mainlines attitude to Impulse when NJS have for years operated Jets owned by Qantas over Qantas routes, at reduced rates compared to mainline, how many commands did that cost.....
Is there a double standard or have I missed something?

Now if Qantas decide to purchase NJS and call them Jetstar Light and offer them less than impulse accepted, while saying take it or lose your job…..
:uhoh:

[The Spin Doctor]

Hugh Jarse,

Unfortunately I feel the need to wade in here after your post.
I can not, for the life of me, believe that you are using ignorance of the fact that redundancies were occuring at Impulse as a reason for why not many of the redundant guys got interviews/positions at the regionals. Everyone I spoke to around the time already knew.

What would I suggest they have done- all management were apparently in consultation(quote from our management), so the promised interview is all that I would have asked for nothing more nothing less. If we didn't get in fine(I am not about to believe in conspiracy theory, even if they do exist). But I can tell you now, I did apply to both and still have applications in, easily exceed the min aeronautical experience, have passes Qantas stage 1 testing, ensured politely that both companies had received my application and guess what not even an interview and believe me I am not alone. Please don't take this as sour grapes(I will walk my own path and take my own chance) I just feel the need to set the record straight.

Personally I would like to thank the IPC for the deal made, there is something to be said for "looking after the groups interest", job wise because everyone else seemed to be waiting for ALL of us just to go away.

[spinout]

When the B1900 was removed and pilots became redundant in impulse, (it happened in Eastern when the Jetstream was removed, and no one gave a toss), they retained their right to go back to impulse when a position became available, and that’s fine but to expect another company, remember there was and still is no agreement between the subsidiaries, to take on and train pilots knowing they were going to leave, what would you expect them to do.
Remember it was the pilots at Eastern that tried to organize an integration agreement that gave impulse pilots rights over everyone else for perpetuity that they found unacceptable. This would have insured that any redundant pilot would have been put on before anyone off the street but like I said it was the IPC that rejected it.
Remember also its Qantas that ultimately say who is hired not the pilot groups.

[The Spin Doctor]

Spinout,
I agree with the first part of your post but a promise was made to interview, if it wasn't I agree we had no right to expect ANYTHING, but a promise was made, and some people on this forum believe we were given priority into the other regionals, THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE and that is the point I wanted to make.

with reference to the integration thing this actually occured later, after the promises had been broken but at least one bloke benifited as the regional tryed to get the integration up.

[E.P.]

Of course it could not have happened however, it would have been interesting to witness Prop guy and Keg et al's career choice if QANTAS had folded, not ANSETT. :eek:

Also, are all the 1900 guys really going directly on the bus as captains? :=

[phat boy]

You're on a hiding to nothing here Keg and Proplever!! amos that sounds like something my old man would say. for all the guys under the age of 50 tell us, what the hell does is that supposed to mean?

[amos2]

Oh boy!...another junior flyer on the forum! :rolleyes:

If you want to go 15 rounds you'll have to do better than that!

[phat boy]

another junior flyer Great comeback.....

but amos is the one who's already edited his comeback. Musta been even more hoot-worthy before that......:rolleyes:

"going 15 intellectual rounds with amos".... I just keep getting a mental image of the scene in Matrix where neo thinks about what to have for dinner while slapping shiite outa agent smith with one-hand. :zzz:

[CSL]

Hi All,

Alright - I know I am going to probably get myself into sh*t over this but here goes it:

As an observer from overseas (6 years) and not actually being interested in a airline job I am just trying to understand what is going on back there in OZ. A couple of questions for you all,

1. what are the non Qantas guys earning gross p.a. (and don't redirect me to the archives - the kids won't let me have that much computer time)?
2. How many hours per week are they working?
3. Overall is it strenuous - how many decisions regarding emergencies/diversions have to be made on a monthly basis opposed to cruising and enjoying the sights?
4. Does the pay fit the job description/tasking?
5. Aren't other industries being asked to do more for less - is this any different.
6. What sort of lifestyle does their package offer them and their families compared to the rest of society?
7. Is this any different to what is going on in UK and US (easyjet ryanair etc)


Insterested in constructive level headed comments only - the emotional and unstable need not reply

cheers,
CSL:O

[itchybum]

proplever, not much support for you here but I will say, I liked the post re the psycho-analysis by Kaptin M.

And I don't like being grilled about when I joined.

But here's my question: Since it is the airline management that calls the shots, do you really think the influence wielded by the IPG is anything more than lip service when it came to setting down the conditions of service?

And when it was laid on the table, if you took any average joe off the street, do you really think that bloke is going to turn down a better job offered today in favour of a maybe with qantas tomorrow or after an out-right "No" from same? Think about how many pilots there are out there compared to how many make it to AN/QF (now obviously just QF)

[proplever]

4. Does the pay fit the job description/tasking?

Oh, I'm sooooo tempted.:sad: :{ Lordy, give me strength!

Sorry, itchy, much as I'd like to respond, I'm on a promise to the Woomeri. I might have a few far right ideals, but I am good to my word.

Now stop teasing me, pleeeeaaasse?:mad:

[Three Bars]

CSL,

If you want stable, level-headed, unemotional answers, you must ask stable, level-headed, unemotional questions.

By reading between the lines, I feel you are really saying this:

1. What do you guys really earn? - just tell me I don't want to look up the contract.
2. Surely airline pilots don't work that many hours to warrant all this angst?
3. You rarely ever have an emergency, why do you feel you deserve more money?
4. Don't you think you get paid what you're worth?
5. Everbody's cutting each others throat to get work - why are pilots any different?
6. Surely you guys get a better deal than the rest of society - travel, hotels, allowances?
7. Everywhere else in the world is screwing pilot's wages - why shouldn't Australia go the same way?

Or maybe I've just misunderstood you.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Good one 3 bars!!:ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

Unfortunately I feel the need to wade in here after your post.
I can not, for the life of me, believe that you are using ignorance of the fact that redundancies were occuring at Impulse as a reason for why not many of the redundant guys got interviews/positions at the regionals. Everyone I spoke to around the time already knew. SpinDoctor, I don't know how you can call me ignorant to the redundancies etc, as the first I heard was when I was informed that the redundant pilots were going to be interviewed. I have no control over when that information is released to the public by management, but I can say that was the first time I heard, closely followed by Pprune.

But I can tell you now, I did apply to both and still have applications in, easily exceed the min aeronautical experience, have passes Qantas stage 1 testing, ensured politely that both companies had received my application and guess what not even an interview and believe me I am not alone. Please don't take this as sour grapes(I will walk my own path and take my own chance) I just feel the need to set the record straight. What can I say? I don't know why you didn't/don't get an opportunity but I understand your point on conspiracy theories;) All I can suggest is that if your circumstances are unchanged, you make some phone calls to the relevant HR departments. You might get some satisfaction there......

[CSL]

1. No - happy with my 200k tax free per year for instructing
2. Happy with my 40 hour a week
3. Do you??
4. Are you??
5. Correct??
6. better than Joe Bloe the Grabo - do you agree
7. Airlines are there for shareholders - profit profit profit

:ok: CSL

[The Spin Doctor]

H J,
the post was not designed to be a personal attack on YOU, I hope you are not taking it that way.