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Grainger
24th Sep 2001, 21:04
OK, I'm completely baffled.

Exactly how is making us all carry ID cards supposed to prevent even minor crime, let alone terrorism ? :confused:

HugMonster
24th Sep 2001, 21:26
Beats me. Most of Europe carry ID cards, and I haven't heard of it becoming a crime-free Utopia...

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]

swashplate
24th Sep 2001, 22:08
Grainger:

It's so TB can make it look as if he's doing something about the WTO attacks..... :rolleyes:

tony draper
24th Sep 2001, 22:37
Perhaps we should all be chipped like my pooch, hmmm,not a bad idea. ;)

Loki
25th Sep 2001, 01:02
Reminds me of the last Tory governments plan to confiscate the drving licences of burglars. Apparently this was going to deter all but the most hardened criminal.

Also, this latest idea will at least generate some employment in the forgery industry. Alternatively, the light fingered amongst us will be nicking said cards along with our mobile phones and credit cards.

Grainger
25th Sep 2001, 01:13
So when your ID card gets pinched along with your wallet, there will be a crook with a fake ID card, and an honest citizen without one...

Given the current level of interest in solving burglaries, thefts from cars etc, you'll never see your card again.

And probably get nicked when you go to report your wallet missing for having no ID <sigh> ... :rolleyes:

JPJ
25th Sep 2001, 01:16
ID cards will be useless.
The really bad guys will get forged ones.
Will carrying the cards be compulsory?
If yes, what about those of us who forget them/lose them/have them stolen?
If no, what is the point?

The Guvnor
25th Sep 2001, 03:07
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.

The present government has been desperate to try and turn this country into a police state for many years; and Blunkett's desire to revoke parts of the European Human Rights convention are typical of that.

It's essential for us all that our last remaining freedoms be safeguarded. Under the proposed legislation, the government would have blanket authority to detain people without trial; inspect emails - and force people to hand over their encrytion keys if used; tap telephones at will and require the carriage of ID cards by everyone.

How this will prevent terrorism, I have no idea. I'm quite sure that the average terrorist - whether Irish or Muslim fundamentalist - would never say over an open phone or email "OK, boys, here's our plan to zap London".

Bailed Out
25th Sep 2001, 03:21
When they banned guns it saved people from getting locked up for shooting buglers.

At least with Id cards they’ll be able to identify the victims! :rolleyes:

Tartan Gannet
25th Sep 2001, 05:10
I just cant see the problem myself and I have been in favour of ID cards for a long time.

Now let's see what I carry with me every day. A photopass with mag strip for work, several credit cards and ATM cards, various other proofs of identity. No problem there. Many people also carry a Driving Licence.

Now what of the lame excuses against. Such as "what if I am stopped by the Police and I left it ay home etc? " Well, I sure they will apply the same rules as when a motorist is stopped by Police and does not have his documents. A Form (it used to be called HORT1) was issued by the Officer requiring production at a Police Station within 5 days.

I just dont have any problem with ID cards and if it helps the Police against criminals , that's great by me! I can also see advantages for the honest citizen in carrying one.

Cant wait to get mine when they are brought in.

pigboat
25th Sep 2001, 05:39
Brother TG! Welcome back!

Tartan Gannet
25th Sep 2001, 12:49
Fraternal best wishes Pigboat, I greet you heartily and well!

On the bigger picture I would be interested in the Canadian perspective on the events in NYC 2 weeks ago. Is there any marked dichotomy between Francophone and Anglophone Canadians in reaction and opinion? What is the viewpoint of the well known Canadian "liberal" establishment on all this?


We stood to order in remembrance of those who were killed at my recent Lodge Meeting.

Fraternally,

TG (PM)

Grainger
25th Sep 2001, 13:32
Missed the point entirely TG. It's not the card itself, it's being forced to carry one.

As for filling in your forms and showing up at the cop shop - what a monumental waste of everyone's time. Again, only the good guys are actually going to do that ! Your crook will just do a runner. Thus taking up more crime-fighting resources.

I often leave behind credit cards, car keys etc. if I'm off to the pub for a real session - 'cos if I take anything valuable I may forget it, lose it, give it to 'my bestest mate' and so on. Now I have to carry an ID card, lose it, explain myself to Plod and spend a night in the cells.

At least when they figure out that I'm not public enemy number one and accuse me of wasting police time, I'll be able to take great delight in telling them that they managed to waste it all by themselves.

FlyingForFun
25th Sep 2001, 14:37
Well, as a law-abiding citizen, I'm all for ID cards.

At last, all those 16 and 17 year olds won't be able to get away with showing their big brother's birth certificate in pubs.

The same kids will also have to pay the correct fare on the busses and trains, instead of paying a childs fare which I then have to subsidise.

When someone gets stopped by the police, they won't be able to give a false name and address any more, which will mean they can't do a runner. It will also save police time bringing people in to check their personal details if the cops don't believe the details they've been given. (Admitedly there are issues with people who "forgot" their ID cards, but if it's compulsary to carry one, most people who aren't criminals but have just done something stupid would show their ID card, instead of trying to give false details.)

As for the war against terrorists - well, terrorists generally have several different IDs, we've already heard of the those repsonsible for the WTC attack going by a number of different names. It takes a while to gather evidence against someone, and you can't hold someone indefinitely while you gather that evidence. But if they have a false ID card, presumably you could hold them on these grounds whilst gathering the evidence of the real crimes.....

I agree it's not going to stop crime overnight, but I can't see any down-side, so let's go for it!

FFF
-----------

Boss Raptor
25th Sep 2001, 17:36
Well for all the reasons as listed by others above I do not believe an ID Card will have any effect on either terrorism or crime for that matter...

As far as I am personally concerned the whole concept is totally 'un-British' and should be fervently resisted just as with the Euro and many other things European orientated...

Let's face it we are all just 'numbers' to mongs like TB! ;)

JetAgeHobo
25th Sep 2001, 20:37
Not sure what all the fracas is aobout ID cards, here in the U.S. we're pretty much used to it, either liquor control or driver's license. Heck in China I even have to carry a separate one for the apartment complex (I guess to show where I live) even though it's in Chinese and I haven't the foggiest idea what it says.

Problem is my soon to be ex-wife has managed to lose hers, and I can't put her on an airplane back to her parent's until she gets a new one. :(

Paterbrat
25th Sep 2001, 21:39
If in some miniscule way it would help in the present attempt to control and eradicate terrorism, I would consider it a very small imposition and a price well worth paying.

PA-28
25th Sep 2001, 21:49
To those advocating ID cards, think a little.

As already pointed out most of us carry enough ID in a variety of forms, how is more going to help ? If I want to ( voluntarilly ) identify myself to a police officer I can already do so, passport or whatever. If I am a criminal or whatever I'm hardly going to co-operate by carrying the necessary paperwork am I. That would meen that everyone without thier card is automatically suspicious, i.e. into the cells. A newspaper article today suggested 500,000 cases of lost ID in the first year of thier introduction at the start of WWII. All this would do is waste the very resource that would be needed to counter crime in the first place, and generate a black market in stolen cards, about as big as that for cdedit card fraud at a guess, how many people know absolutely no-one who has never lost a credit card.

Does having ID cards impact on terrorism ? err they were compulsory in apartheid S.Africa - The infamous Pass Books - if I remember right. And depending on how you look at it the terrorists are now the legitimate govt. of the country. ( A good thing Too IMHO - this is in no way a comment on WTC in case anybody gets the wrong end of the stick )

If they are compulsory they must be shown to work, or otherwise they serve no usefull purpose. I believe that the Association of Chief Constables have already come out against as just not worthwhile.

Blunket's comment that they are needed to AVOID a Police State just beggars belief?

This is pure knee jerk bollock5 -

PA-28 :confused:

tony draper
25th Sep 2001, 22:26
I posted earlier in the thread about the possibility of chipping every one, he more I think about it the more the idea appeals to me, a small chip inserted beneath the skin rather like my pooch as ,containing basic information such as blood group date of birth and other details that could be checked instantly on a central register.
I would have no problem with this and I fail to see why any law abiding citizen should object.
The information on these chips can be read painlessly and easily using a small detector and displayed on a computer screen.

Lestat
26th Sep 2001, 07:52
Quote: I would have no problem with this and I fail to see why any law abiding citizen should object

I'm a law abiding citizen and I'd object to it,

It's all well and good as long as the Government of the day is honourable, just and fair, you also better hope that future Governments are just as honourable, just and fair.....


:rolleyes:

Boss Raptor
26th Sep 2001, 18:06
Me too!

Here in Russia all citizens have an ID Card/Internal Passport...

...and even if you have committed no crime any authority from the police, tax people to local council can suspend or restrict your ability to travel...a friend was investigated by the Tax Police and although the case was dropped as unfounded all the time it went on his ID restricted him to his home town only and he was unable to travel anywhere outside...

Extreme I know but give authorities just a 'sniff' of these powers and they will find some justification to implement them...

ID Cards...no way! :mad:

Velvet
27th Sep 2001, 00:47
I frequently go out without any form of identification, and I would object to some 'jobsworth' young guy or gal thinking they can stop me - why - well, because they can. And who else will have rights to demand our ID.

You think they will only do it as and when absolutely necesary, and that all those young hooligans who are intent on breaking the law will carry genuine ID cards - yeah right. Just like they carry driving licences and insurance when they go out joy-riding.

I don't want to have to carry an ID card with me when ever I go out, even for a walk with the dog or just a nose round the shops, just in case I might be stopped and without it have to spend an hour or so (or longer) at the nearest police station, which might not be convenient (what happens if I'm going on holiday the next day).

I thought there weren't enough police officers to counteract crime now, isn't that their primary role - to protect us and prevent / detect crime. I'm sure that it will give a sense of being seen to be doing something, but what will it actually achieve.

What happens if it is lost or stolen?

Freedom is a very precious thing and we should guard it and fight for it - when lost, it is almost impossible to retrieve. Just ask any totalitarian state citizen whether they feel safer for having that right taken away.

Is there less crime in America, less fear because they have IDs. My friend who is in her mid 30s has to show her ID card just to buy liquor - and no, she doesn't look under 21. It's just one of those petty-fogging regulations that piggyback identification measures. Certainly doesn't stop underage drinking, certainly doesn't stop alcohol related crimes and certainly doesn't make her feel more secure.

Yes, I have a passport and credit cards and even a Company ID card, but it is my choice if I carry them - they are not compulsory.

I have committed no crimes and I do not want to feel as if I'm a prisoner in my own country, one where I'm afraid to leave home unless I'm carrying some small piece of plastic.

Rollingthunder
27th Sep 2001, 02:02
TG,

There appears to be a significant gap in a recent poll. A majority of Canadians favour a targeted, effective response even with some loss of Canadian Armed Forces lives. In Quebec the number is about 50/50, declining significantly if we are expected to suffer human losses in the endeavour. In-line with the WW1 and 2 responses even when one of the things we were trying to do was liberate France. No disrespect meant anywhere. We are all, currently, on the front line and taking hits.

Unwell_Raptor
27th Sep 2001, 02:18
Sorry, this is politics. Desist if you will.

Rollingthunder
27th Sep 2001, 02:23
Politics is the exercise of power, and i have little of that. Well, sometimes i do. ;)

PilotsPal
27th Sep 2001, 15:28
I have to carry three separate ID cards for work - it's a disciplinary matter not to. All office entrances have CCTV and security staff so anyone not producing the right pass each day will certainly get hauled up to HR.

A London Underground pass now comprises the ticket itself and the photocard - both must be shown if you get inspectors patrolling your train. The ticket isn't valid without the accompanying photocard and it's an instant 10 fine.

The present UK driving licence comes in two parts - the plastic card and the paper bit (where they put the convictions!). Again, both have to be shown if reqested by the Police.

Faced with checking that all this lot is present and correct in my possession every day (and that's without all the store/charge/credit/bank cards), what's one more?

Grainger
27th Sep 2001, 15:40
Yeh but like I said you can choose to leave any or all of those at home if you want to: if you are off to the pub, going swimming, or just for a walk or anywhere you don't want to be worried about what's happening to your valuables.

Velvet put it very clearly - why should we be forced to carry ID if we don't want to ?

VTSP
28th Sep 2001, 00:03
Question. Who will pay for the ID card?
The old UK driving licence (without a photograph) was valid until your 70th birthday. If it is kept in good (readable) condition, and you do not change address or get banned, you paid your licence fee once only. The photo driving licence is only valid for 10 years and you have to pay to replace it!!

Refering to producing the part of the new photo driving licence that holds details of your driving convictions: Why do the police need to have that produced? There is nothing on there that the police require. They are not allowed to be aware of what your previous convictions are or aren't. Or is that another freedom that has secretly been taken away from us?

ID cards.... Just another way of enforcing president for life B liar's nanny state.

The Guvnor
29th Sep 2001, 11:44
From today's telegraph:
Reckless ID card plan will destroy nation's freedom
By Simon Davies
(Filed: 29/09/2001)

THE Government has embarked on its most reckless policy to date in pursuing the idea of national identity cards. The initiative will fundamentally change the nature of government and the character of the nation.

This is inevitable because the modern ID card is no simple piece of plastic. It is the visible component of a web of interactive technology that fuses the most intimate characteristics of the individual with the machinery of state.

It is the means by which the powers of government will be streamlined and amplified. Almost every national ID card system introduced in the past 15 years has contained three components with the potential to devastate personal freedom and privacy.

First, each citizen is obliged to surrender a finger or retina print to a national database. This information is combined with other personal data such as race, age and residential status. A photograph completes the dossier.

In addition, its introduction must be accompanied by a substantial increase in police power. After all, authorities will want to be able to demand the card in a wide range of circumstances, and people must be compelled to comply.

The most significant, yet most subtle, element is that the card and its numbering system will permit the linking of information between all government departments. The number is ultimately the most powerful element of the system.

Such a system, linked through tens of thousand of card readers to a central database, is the conventional means of dealing with the problem of counterfeit cards.

But the technology gap between governments and organised crime has narrowed so much that even the most highly secure cards are available as blanks, weeks after their official introduction. Criminals and terrorists can move more freely and more safely with several fake identities than they ever could in a country with multiple forms of ID.

To make sure people are who they claim to be, the new generation of cards, such as those introduced this year in Malaysia, incorporate a chip containing the "biometric" - a fingerprint, retina or hand scan of the holder. The card and the finger are placed into a reader, and the person is "validated".

Authorities can gain further personal information stored on the chip to confirm the holder's identity. This validation process can be done anywhere - on the streets, in airports, schools, banks, swimming pools or office buildings.

You will not hear any government emphasising these aspects. Instead, the new ID systems are benignly promoted as "citizen cards" that guarantee entitlement to benefits and services.

Five years ago, the Government quietly buried proposals for ID cards when it discovered that they would cost billions of pounds more than expected, would do little to prevent crime, and might become wildly unpopular.

How much more unpopular will they be when people learn that a scan of their body parts will be required?

If an ID card was unworkable five years ago, why would it work now? The short answer is that it would not - unless the biometric were added and the whole system verified through a national database. That is not a card: it is a national surveillance infrastructure.

If such a scheme is introduced in the current climate, three outcomes are inevitable. First, a high-security card will become an internal passport, demanded in limitless situations. (Don't leave home without it.)

Second, millions of people will be severely
inconvenienced each year through lost, stolen or damaged cards, or through failure of computer systems or the biometric reading machinery.

Finally, the cards will inevitably be abused by officials who will use them as a mechanism for prejudice, discrimination or harassment.

No one has been able to identify any country where cards have deterred terrorists. To achieve this, a government would require measures unthinkable in a free society.

The Government thus faces a choice. Either it
introduces a high-security biometric card that will challenge every tenet of freedom, or it introduces a low-security card that will soon be available to criminals and terrorists on the black market.

Or, of course, it can scrap the whole idea and concentrate on more proven measures to deal with terrorism.

Simon Davies is visiting fellow in the department of information systems at the London School of Economics and director of the watchdog group Privacy International

Hoverman
29th Sep 2001, 16:11
I was undecided about ID cards, but the brilliant logic of the majority arguments has persuaded me that they would be ineffective in the fight against crime/terrorism.
Now that I'm persuaded it's pointless having anything which isn't 100% effective, I think we should abolish the following for the same reason:
Passports
PIN numbers on credit cards
Car door locks/immobilisers
Burglar alarms
Firearms licenses
National Insurance numbers
Punishing criminals
Prison
Security checks at airports
and of course
Usernames/Passwords on Prune
etc etc etc


:rolleyes:

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Hoverman ]

Tartan Gannet
29th Sep 2001, 17:02
Tony Draper. No problem for me with ID "chips" as currently used on cats and dogs. Think of the advantages. Any medical data could be encoded, useful if one is unconscious and suffers from some condition or allergy to a medication. Could be combined with the scanners used to enforce the curfew rules instead of the clumsy ankle or wrist tag currently used on some criminals and for prisoners temporarily let out for various reasons. If a corpse is found, identity can be established quickly even if badly decomposed as long as the chip is present.

If everyone, even Blair, Royalty, etc is chipped then there is no discrimination. Like ID cards I have no concern about it, indeed it could actually protect the innocent from cases of mistaken identity. I feel the same about a National DNA database. On Radio 4 today the concept of the "Communitarian" was suggested. Those who believe that the security and safety of the community outweighs the freedoms of the individual, as Star Trek's Mr Spock said, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" . I would class myself as a Communitarian. It is interesting that the exterme Libertarian Right and the Wet Liberal Left both deplore ID cards etc. That confirms to me what a good idea they will be WHEN they are brought in

BTW Tony. As Danny has banned religion and politics on JB I am giving thought to resurrecting the idea of a Forum on Lycos or Yahoo or the likes to let people of OUR viewpoint express our opinions as far as is permissible. It would be moderated by myself and NOT a democracy, so HM, U_R, TW and certain others would be most unwelcome there and censored if they wasted their time posting. So anyone out there who DOES want a Forum for those of a Traditionalist viewpoint to vent their spleen at PC, Wets, Do-Gooders, troublesome minorities who make undue demands on the majority, let me know and I will set it up.

:D :D :D