ATPL theory before PPL? Recommended?

[Parkbremse]

Hi,

though this is my first post, i have been reading pprune for quite along time and like to say that this a really great rescource and i have already gained lots of valuable information. Now, after 2 1/2 year struggling with the German Authorities, i finally managed to get a Class 1 Medical and i am now in a position to start my ATPL. :D However, i'm a bit unsure about how to start. I want to do the modular route, i'm sure about that, but i don't really know if it's better to: do the PPL first and then start with ATPL theory (normal way) or to do the ATPL theory first and doing the whole flying afterwards (which is, at least after the German JAR-FCL 1 translation, perfectly possible). Apart from saving some money, the latter way would suit me best, because i could finish the whole theory before taking my final exams in university. But this way doesn't seem very popular, at least i haven't found anything here about it on pprune, and i am wondering if the knowledge you gain during the PPL is in fact really necessary for the ATPL theory.

What's your opinion about this? Any help is greatly appreciated!

[NM163]

As far as I can find out, you can start the ATPL theory, but won't be able to sit the exam until you have an ICAO PPL.

[Send Clowns]

Get written authority from the German authorities before starting this. JAR-FCL completely forbids even starting a modular ATPL course before PPL issue. This is sometimes made a little flexible (test passed, rather than licence issued for example) but in the normal JAA system you cannot do this!

[Parkbremse]

thanky for the replies, i'll defintatly check it up with the german authority before signing up for the distance learning course.

The paragraph i'm referring to is:

German JAR-FCL 1: 1.050 (b) (3)

"Einem Bewerber, der die theoretische Prüfung für den Erwerb einer ATPL(A) bestanden hat, werden diese Kentnisse auf die für den Erwerb einer PPL(A), CPL(A), IR(A) geforderte theoretische Ausbildung angerechnet."

which is translated (roughly, cant do any better):

"A candidate,who has passed the theoretical examination for aquisation of an ATPL, is credited this knowledge on the for an aquisation of PPL,CPL or IR required theoretical training."

The way i understand it, is that after passing the ATPL exams you only have to do the practical parts of the PPL,CPL and IR training.

But apart from the legality of this issue, would you recommend that way?

[Martin1234]

I know a guy that is doing a distance learning ATPL course without any previous flying experience and he's doing really fine.
I don't think that anyone would recommend it, but it sure is doable if you have a great aptitude for this kind of knowledge.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Parkbremse,

I do know of someone who started his residential ATPL ground school before finishing his ICAO PPL. Of course the ICAO PPL was passed and issued before sitting the exams.

It is perfectly possible (theoretically, I'm not sure about legally) to learn the ATPL subjects required before obtaining an ICAO PPL or indeed any flight training but would be difficult (as if it isn't already!).

What does the first three months or most, if not all, integrated courses cosist of? Yes the first module of the ATPL studies. You'd take the first lot of exams before any flight training.

However if you're going modular and will be studying for your ATPLs via distance learning then I'd not recommend this as having an ICAO PPL will at least give you a little bit of prior knowledge of flying and its subject matter.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[birdlady]

Hi

I would strongly recommend that you do your PPL before you start your ATPL simply for the reason that you gain some experience. The ATP is a VERY hard course. I have friends who have studied aeronautical enginering and have decided to switch over to the flying side and even they have found the ATP difficult. I know flying is a HUGE expense but there are ways you can shorten your expense. Come out to South Africa and do your PPL here. All it will take is 6 weeks and you can get your PPL for around 4thousand pounds (accomodation and flights included). The thing is a South African PPL can be converted into a JAA CPL without you having to convert too much. Basically all it will involve is a check ride wherever you end up and you will save yourself some big bucks. The South African PPL is an ICAO licence so its excepted in Europe and it is the closest licence you will get to the JAA in the world. The training is excellent, the flying is cheaper, the weather is fantastic and the booze is cheap!!!!!!!! What else could you ask for:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Martin1234]

"What else could you ask for"

Maybe someone that doesn't try to "give him a ride"..?

Don't tell me that you "just need a check ride" in order to convert an ICAO Annex 1 PPL to a JAR CPL!

[flyfish]

Martin dont be to hard on birdlady I am sure that was just a typo.
The facts sit ,if converting a PPL obtained in S.A, to JAR PPL.

It was a typo wasnt it ?????????????

[Parkbremse]

@birdlady

I'm afraid that this is not quite true, after the german JAR-FCL 1 you need >100 h PIC time for converting any ICAO PPL to a JAR PPL. That's why i decided to do my PPL over here in Germany.

However, South-Africa is actually one of my wish countries for hour bulding, so i'll get to know the fantastic weather and the cheap booze then ;)

@all
What is it actually that makes the ATPL theory harder when you have no flying experience? I can only think of navigation, but even that should be quite different to what is taught in the PPL theory.

Another question: Is the ATP theory really that hard, i mean are the subjects themselves diffcult? Or is it in fact the mass of knowledge you have to learn, that makes the ATPL theory difficult?

Anyway, thank you all for your help so far!

[redsnail]

This is just general advice so feel free to discard it if you wish.
I would get a PPL before starting the ATPL theory and the rest of it. Why? To go and learn about flying and more importantly, go and have some fun. You want to learn to fly because you want to fly. Go and enjoy yourself for a bit before getting all serious with the ATPL. (psst, Australia's great too for hour building, booze and food :D )
Now you'll have half an idea what lift is, what drag is, what flaps do etc. You'll have seen some weather and the like. Now the ATPL's make a little (not much mind you) bit of sense. This background is very useful to assist you in the theory side of the ATPL.
After you've got the exams out of the way, go and get some hours up. Now, with your ppl and your head full of theory stuff, test it out. Set yourself some challenges and see if you can keep your skills up. You'll get a lot more out of your flying than just burning Avgas doing circles.
Good luck

[birdlady]

Hi guys

Sorry it was a typo error. What I meant to say was that you do your ppl out here, get your 100 p1 and then go back to Europe to do your JAA CPL. I know that you can fly on a Sa ppl in the UK all you need is a checkride before they will let you out on your own simply for the reason of the airspace is completely different and they need to know that you are safe. Sorry about that guys. Just be carefull of what school you choose. I know Lanseria FLight Centre in Joburg is very good as well as CFA in Grand Central. If you want to go to the coast try 43 Air school in Port Alfred also very good. Navigation is very daunting at first and I have to say I seriously battled with it in the begining until I started doing cross countries myself. :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Voeni]

@Parkbremse

Did the ATP Theory last year to finish an integrated course. As most of the others, I'd suggest you do the PPL first.

ATP theory is a mass of knowledge, when doing the tests you will definitely have the better overall knowledge on aviation than any 50 year B747-Capt., believe me. You need to know a lot of details and a lot of nonsense...

Remember last year's hot summer? I had nothing from it, just learning every day...

And for sure: For most of the students, Navigation and Flight Planning are the most difficult tasks (as Navigation is probably the only subject, where time is critical). It helps you a loooot if you've done some real navigation & flight planning before. And just a lot of other things, expressions, minimas etc. are much more simpler if you've dealt with 'em in real life.

BTW: Why not an integrated course?