AV8 Air Problems?

[Defib]

Rumours are abounding around MAN, saying that AV8 Air has hit cash problems and the future looks unsound. Apparently the summer programme has been drastically reduced - many flights now being operated by Excel, and they still have not got the 757 off the ground. Passengers apparently not happy with the "direct" flights to CPT (via DUB and PMI), and the state of the leased 767.
I hope this isn't true - I have many friends there and they are all saying they know nothing. Anybody else know anything either way??

[bagpuss lives]

Last rumour we heard was that they were looking to acquire one or maybe two more 75's?

[Mr A Tis]

Don't know where you get your info from, but the CPT does indeed go non stop MAN-CPT once a week, an additional flt goes via DUB. On a few occassions the returns from CPT have had to make a fuel stop in PMI.
The economy is laid out 2 -3-2 which compares with a scheduled
airline economy class ( rather than the MYT, BAL, 2-4-2 sardine layouts.
Cabin crews have been fine. If you want a direct cheap flt to CPT than you have to accept the slightly inferior IFE, but the aircraft is fine - i've been on it, I've certainly been on alot worse.

[T Hairy Henry]

Just out of interest.

How the hell do you book the MAN-CPT flights?

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Try CT2 holidays they have been doing a lot of advertising on TV in last few weeks

Golf India Bravo

[proteus8]

Well defib, as a member of crew for av8, I can tell thee....

As far as we have been told, all is well and the summer/winter schedule looks bright. the 767 is up and running and the 757 shortly to follow.

however, it does feel as though we've hit a few cash problems. our crew room has now been moved off the airport grounds all together from the glam regus building beside the hilton to the not so glam surroundings of sale !!!

If anyone else knows or hears of anything, can they post it, so we can abandon ship before we're forced to walk the plank !!

later guys, p8.

[gatwicknose]

I smell Excel again...not satisfied with crapping all over EAAC they now start to spread rumours about AV8...great business model!

[Barmy Army]

P8

As Crpl Jones said "don't panic"!

They maybe a logical explanation to you moving and like you say the 767 is running with the 757 right behind it

Cheers

Barmy Army

[Sir George Cayley]

There is a huge VFR market from the North to SA. Younger readers may not remember that SAA served MAN with a B747 until a few years ago but like QANTAS made (IMHO) a grave error pulling off the route.

Yes northern pax will trudge down to London by shuttle train or car but not in the numberrs that used to want to commence their journey from Ringway

I understand many peoples sentiments that the number of stops along the way is less of a problem than having to change planes.

Thats why BA/QuaintAS shrunk the MAN market by 30% in the first year the 747 did'nt carry on from LHR.

The local interest in MAN - CPT is building but as usual getting the message across that the service is available is the trick.

A family friend has booked to go LH via FRA because niether he nor his family in SA knew about the service.

Like any new starter its gaining that critical mass to continue thats important. I for one wish them well


Sir George Cayley

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Just out of interest the AV8 B757 is just about to go out on it`s current training/currency flight callsign Ringway751T from Manchester

Golf India Bravo

[Aliens62]

Hey Gatwick Nose, how do you come to the conclusion that the rumours (if indeed there are any) were started by Excel.

[gatwicknose]

Its a well known fact...Excel Aviation have a reputation for softening up the reputation of the competition before crapping on them alltogther ....surely you cant forget Goldcrest before Excel.... same old story..cats getting fatter...airlines used as fodder..

I hope that this is not the case with AV8.. but Excel certainly played a part in screwing European!

Lets hope Im wrong

[matt24nw]

I've just heard from a friend/crew member at AV8 that course 4 ,who started training in January I think, have been made redundant. As far as I am aware course 4 have not operated any flights yet and have been given 1 week's notice. I hope that this does not turn out to be true, but I believe my source to be reliable. Has anyone else heard this? Nearly forgot to add - the rest of the crew have been told that there jobs are safe.

[Barmy Army]

No you guys are not wrong AV8 will no longer exist

This is difficult to accept especially after all the hard work devoted to the airline from some tremendous people

It's a shame BIG shame

I will not say any more amid fear of legal action but it is not right what's happened and the people to blame (not AV8 personal) know who they are and I hope they can sleep at night!

R.I.P AV8 and all the brill people who worked for them

Another sad day for aviation

:{ :{ :{

[RowleyUK]

two down in two weeks!!!:(



NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!:{ :{ :{ :{ :{

[Big Tudor]

Aviation is a nasty business to be in. When it's good it's great but when it's bad, well don't take on any long term financial commitments.

Good luck to all at AV8 & European. I'm sure there are plenty of airlines out there who would welcome your experience with open arms. And for all the doom-mongers - there but for the grace of God!:(

[rupetime]

So...hav AV8 actually gone or is this more scullduggery on PPrune's member's part ?


Come on children lets stick some fact's in our postings.

RT

[gatwicknose]

According to insiders AV8 will cease trying to get directly into the air on the 7th of april...seems that after having not managed to operate their own flights CT2 got pissed off and pulled the plug...the Iceland air flights will continue as before....as AV8 have been operating with their flight numbers for a while now...not sure how long for?

[password]

GatwickNose - Does this mean you've resorted to posting facts instead of bad mouthing others ?

Change of tact maybe ?

[Flightrider]

......said yet another of the numerous spokesmen for Excel Airways

[groundfine]

bmi might be thinking of expanding their MAN A330 operation to South Africa according to Thursday's FT. Would this be likely to be in direct cooperation with a Tour Operator though?

[monkey lover]

Flightrider I maybe misunderstanding your post, but EXCEL had nothing to do with what happened at AV8. It was the directors of the so called ambitious parent company CT2 who were "playing" at having an airline and neglected their responsibilities especially when it came to paying the bills. They employed all these aviation experienced people and promptly refused to take onboard their advice and totally undermined their authority. This solid foundation showed a promsing future and will no doubt be a loss to the tour operator in the long run. MOD gathered together an excellent team which would have gone places. The main disappointment is not the collapse of the airline, but the opportunity that will be missed...

[flymeagain]

the flight opperated today from CPT to DUB and then MAN as sched!! how come the a/c is still opp the route?

[monkey lover]

I believe flights will still operate under the AV8 brand until 07 Apr when they will be taken over by Icelandair

[Mr @ Spotty M]

The B767 operates under Icelandic registration, so it operates for CT2, in the colours of AV8. It has operated in AV8s name only, as l understand the aircraft is on a wet lease. It may well have had some cabin crew paid for by AV8, but they would be flying under Icelandair.
This company seemed to be doomed for a long time and I think Excel has had no part in its downfall.
If you have had a B757 since October/November and still not got the Airline up and running, it was only a matter of time before something gives. Unless they are paying a lease rate by the flying hour, they must have lost a tidy sum in the bargain.
AV8 as I understand it still does not have an AOC, the CAA is getting a lot hotter on start ups as Flyjet found out at their outset.
The AV8 B767 may fly for a number of months or longer in its colours, as it does not matter what is painted on the side, so the airline might carry on indefinitely as AV8. You only have to look at Air Scotland to see that.

[jmc-man]

Shame, I know MOD and I wished him well with this project. However, I'm not sure his flight operations experience helped him with dealing with the CAA's CPG ( the department responsible for Operating Licences as opposed to AOC's)

I've heard that the CAA CPG put a funding requirement on AV8 of £8M ( this for effectively one aircraft, althought he 767 ACMI lease would have to have been included). This is on top of CT2's ATOL Bond of circa £3M. The CAA's forumla is that the operation should be sufficiently funded to cater for three months of costs with no income. Now, because the CAA always apply the same formula, ( irrespective of charter or scheduled) they include in their costs the DOC's ( Direct Operating Costs) of flying the aircraft. If you are starting a scheduled airline, that makes sense, but with a charter airline, it could be argued that if the charterer doesn't pay, the the flight doen't operate, so the DOC's could be excluded from the calculation.

If AV8 had argued this, they might have dropped the funding requirement to a level CT2 could manage. This argument has won results in the past.

Barmy Army, I'm afraid that ultimately the blame for the failure of this operation to get up and running comes down to the inexperience at this level of AV8's management team. CT2 have a very experienced and successful team who have a great depth of knowledge of being a Tour Operator. They relied on the AV8 Team to pull it all together.

[Nato 35]

JMC MAN,

Why not stop talking "CRAP". MOD and his team did everything that was asked of them to get the airline up and runnoing. CT2's management team decided they would not/could not pay the bond for the AOC after everything else hasd been put in place. If you dont know the details then dont post, cos it only F*:ks people off. Signed one slightly pissed ex AV8 crew.

Things can only get better,

:cool:

[Flightrider]

Nato35, you may be pissed off. However, if the above is true and amount asked for by the CAA was ridiculous and couldn't be argued against by the entire team (by which I mean MOD and the CT2 people), would you just say "yes" and stump up the cash?

The CT2 tour operating team have not got to where they are today by signing blank cheques, and I don't suppose they want to start now just for the sake of seeing their "own" airline get into the air. I can sympathise - this is not good from your point of view, but you have to give some credit to them for not being led astray by the whiff of Jet A1 as so many people have been in the past. Aviation can be a horribly expensive pastime if you're not careful.

[jmc-man]

NATO 35,

Here's a question for you then, if you think I'm talking "crap". Did the AV8 team present a project plan, with timings and costs to the CT2 board for the starting of an airline?

If so, what assumptions were made with respect to :-

1) Timing
2) costs
3) CPG Requirements.

Now if it is the case that the AV8 Management team presented a plan which accurately included all of the above , and the CT2 Board subsequently just bottled out, then I'll retract my statements above and apologise.

If however, the plan presented and the actual implementation started to diverge , particularly on items (2) ans (3) then I'm afraid what I said earlier applies.

[BOTFOJ]

so, flightrider and gatwicknose, which one of you started this thread - ??? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=109938&highlight=excel)

[monkey lover]

jmc-man flightrider

what would your thoughts be if the AV8 management had shown all the costs / budget / risks etc. to CT2 who then said the projection was affordable only to later find the money wasnt there ?

[Flightrider]

BOTFOJ - Not me....and not quite sure what you're getting at there by dredging up the annals of PPrune past.

If you're genuinely interested (i.e. instead of just an effort at mud-slinging), I guess the admin folk on the website could at least ascertain whether the originator of that thread's credentials are real. There is certainly enough info on his profile page to be able to take a reasoned view.

Monkey Lover - I would agree that, before even thinking about starting an airline, you need to have a clear view of how much you are going to need; and how much of that you are going to actually spend (as opposed to providing financial fitness for the CAA). If the project has been managed within both figures, then I fully take your point. I honestly don't know whether it has or has not and speculating on that at this point in time is of largely academic interest only.

[BOTFOJ]

flightrider, checking your previous posts its highly likely we know each other... my point is that every time theres a rumour posted on PPRuNe, certain paranoid people squeal that it must be excel trying to bring down another company by posting on this website whereas in reality both EAAC and AV8 have been brought down by their own failings. This is clear when you read the postings from those on the inside, and are in possession of the FACTS. I was trying to show that people post about airlines in trouble all the time, and they're not ALL working for Phil Wyatt.

[Flightrider]

BOTFOJ, I fully understand your point but would suggest this is a message which needs to be communicated elsewhere and not necessarily or solely in my direction.

I'm now retiring bored from this discussion.

[password]

BOTFOJ " They're not all working for Phil Wyat"

If he is taking over the aviation world - perhaps we should all apply there.

[Rockhound]

I was interested to read about AV8TOR, having recently (Feb 26/Mar 4) flown on them to Lanzarote from MAN. I felt I was on thin ice from the get-go. The flight was identified solely as an Icelandair one (FI), yet, apart from its registration, there was no mention of Iceland among the plane's markings (however, the pilots' names were unmistakeably Icelandic). The in-flight magazine listed weekly tour packages/flights to Tenerife (from Newcastle, if memory serves) but none to Lanzarote, yet there I was, on my way to Arecife on the weekly Thursday run from MAN. Also included were details and prices of packages to Dubai and an announcement that AV8TOR operated one 767 and one 757. On the way down, the captain informed us that local time in Lanzarote was one hour different from that in MAN - wrong (the time's the same). Talking to a flight attendant, I found out that the 757 was not operational yet and that flights to Dubai had not started. On the plus side, the 767-300 looked to be in A1 shape. Still, all in all, I was quite relieved not to get stuck in Lanzarote as a result of the operator going belly-up and to get back to MAN on AV8TOR on the scheduled day, even if we were 2 hours late.
Rockhound

[saddest aviator]

I think all the rather scurrilous opinions that have been aired on this subject particularly from JMC Man would be a lot more credible if based on FACTS . Not many people know what has gone on . A lot of hard work and expertise from MOD and his team made sure that the AOC as far as the SRG was concerned was in the bag. The management at the parent co might have some other agenda however . Listening to experts in their field is not one of them apparently. From all accounts MOD did an exemplary job in all that was required . So please in future get your facts right before slinging mud!

[chiglet]

The AV8 B757 did a "Radar Circuit" at Manch yesterday, using Ringway" as the RT c/s
watp,iktch

[Barmy Army]

The B757 will make a few more circuits before she is returned. So you guys might see her for a few more weeks yet



:( :( :(

[midman]

Are these rumours true or is the company ok? A mate of mine went to work with them - I don't want to call him and pour petrol on the fire!

[Curious Pax]

I'm a bit perplexed - if Av8 aren't going to proceed with anything other than the Icelandair operated 767, why is the 757 still doing training sorties? Presumably they aren't just being charitable to pilots and keeping them current on it, and I would guess even a quick 15 minute circuit would cost a few quid - it doesn't make sense, especially if funds are tight!

[Barmy Army]

curious pax

the 757 has to remain current for the c of a, which I believe is a
requirement from the people av8 have leased the acft from until it is returned (re previous post of mine)

it would be a big shame however if these circuits cost ct2 (who own av8) a lot of money!!!

best regards

barmy army

hello everyone who knows me, hope u are all ok

:ok:

[bagpuss lives]

MNF751T was up again this afternoon - it completed one radar circuit on 06L, taxied back onto stand and shut down again for a few days.

This seems to be a regular sortie now.

[bagpuss lives]

PRESS RELEASE



AV8 FLIES ON


AV8air has pledged to continue operating its 767 aircraft having scaled down its initial plans whilst negotiations with potential investors continue.


Parent company HCCT (Holidays) Ltd. is in discussions with a third party which has expressed interest in a joint investment in AV8. Negotiations have advanced to the due diligence stage.


Whilst those negotiations continue AV8 has dropped plans to fly its 757 this summer and is in discussions with another airline which is interested in taking it on for the season. The 767 will continue to fly in AV8 colours this summer handling charter services for HCCT's brands to South Africa, the Canary Islands, Greece and mainland Spain. For the time being that aircraft will remain registered on Icelandair's Air Operator's Certificate and use the Scandinavian airline's flight deck crew and AV8 cabin staff.


HCCT also confirmed it had substantial cash reserves to ensure it can meet AV8's ongoing financial commitments.


As a result of changes to the operation it has unfortunately been necessary to make 23 AV8air staff redundant.


Expressing regret at the need for redundancies HCCT's chief executive Brian Murfin said: "The delay in securing external investment to support funds committed by HCCT has resulted in us having to scale down our initial plans and, unfortunately, forced us to makeredundancies. But these are prudent measures to ensure we can best protect the 47 remaining AV8 employees, the interests of our tour operating businesses and the longer term viability of the airline."


ENDS
CT2/r163

[Barmy Army]

Niteflite or whoever you are!

There is an interesting point i would like to take out of the above

The statement claims the 757 is out for a season and they are still looking to obtain their aoc in future

Well... from what i've heard, all the post holders for the aoc have resigned and all ops staff made redundant so how an earth could this be achieved!!!!!

Please whoever you are respond to that question !!!!!!!!

:mad:

[Jack Ruskin]

Whilst those negotiations continue AV8 has dropped plans to fly its 757 this summer and is in discussions with another airline which is interested in taking it on for the season.

B757 to Ashtrays ?????

[bagpuss lives]

I've no idea what the answers to your questions are I'm afraid.

I'm a humble ATC'er and am simply posting an official press release from the group which was issued on 30th March 2004.

Sorry :)

[charterguy]

CT2 - what a bunch of *?x@;@~*. You obviously haven't got the money it takes to launch a proper airline. In my opinion, you should stick to chartering aircraft from 'proper' airlines. I don't know why small time tour operators / travel agents would wish to get into operating aircraft. No doubt MOD has sold you his 'wet dream' of owning your 'own' airline. Time to wake up !!!!

My advice woud be to stick to selling packages, and stop playing 'airlines'. No doubt you guys have already found out that to run an airline takes more money than you have got in the bank.

By the way, your CPT advertising in TTG sucks. You must be desperate !!! Not filling your seats ?

CG

[Thor the Viking]

I trust you feel better after that adolescent tirade CG? I would keep a close eye on that blood pressure if I were you or you will end up one very poorly Easter Bunny.

The facts on this sad matter will come out in due course. The aviation side did all that was required of them and more. I hope the laid off staff are able to gain employment very soon.

T t V

[default]

I understand the ex AV8 cabin crew are being interviewed today and tomorrow by some aircrew contracting company called Airlight Projects.
Apparently Icelandair wants to contract the CCMs through that company to operate on the 767 they had based in MAN.