Citation Comparisons

[Piston Twin]

I am currently evaluating both the Citation II and Citation V for a corporate/charter operation. We are looking at moving 8 people on routes up to 1,100Nm.

Can anybody tell me the pro's and con's of either or both aircraft?:confused:

Cheers
PT

[scambuster]

Citation2, forget it. Citation5, its a bit thin even. Most Citations have 7 pax seats, a few have 8 with a double club arrangement.
U need a 125!

[Bumz_Rush]

However a 800B model is the best option, remember all the bells and whistles....TCAS....8.33 RVSM. etc, etc.
A great aircraft for Europe Charter business.
Find a good broker, to make life easy, or make a lot of friends in the 125 market.

With 2600 hrs only on type I am not an expert, but am looking for a job......

If funds not a problem, also look at the Citation 10, and Challenger 601. Both types all bells and whistles fitted, as standard. (Normally)


Bumz.

[global707]

PT

A C II should do the job, although you will get a better fuel burn on the V (along with higher capital outlay on the purchase) Either way, ask for interior refit on purchase to make it good for 8 seats (double club 4). Will not really work if you have lots of baggage (by that I mean 1 normal size samsonite for each pax)

Where is the area of operation? Oz?

[727 exec]

8 people plus bags doesn't leave much room in a Citation 2 for fuel (I seem to remember that full fuel used to allow for one or two pax max - even less payload if it has reversers).

ps to get 8 pax bags in, even with the aft baggage option, they need to be soft, squashy bags - hard Samonite/Delseys...not a hope!!

[Daifly]

Eight proper seats. External Baggage.

Enough range for your requirements.

Cheap in the States, though maybe not that great to Australia - what about those Singapore Airlines ones? Thought they were going/being replaced?

[FLEXJET]

Come on guys!

Piston Twin is evaluating C550s and you would like him to buy a CL601, a C750, or, what? a 125???
I'm sure he would be proud to be the sole operator of a 125 in Australia...

[Miles Magister]

PT,

The C550 is not really the jet for 8 people. You can put 8 seats in if you do not have a refreshment area. With 8 people and bags you will not get enough fuel in to go 1100 miles. A Citation Excel would be better for the job. If you do not intend to carry 8 people all the time then a C550 will do the job. The C550 is a very good jet for what it does.

MM

[727 exec]

You can get a slimline refreshment and entertainment centre with 8 seats...just enough space for hot coffee and cold beer.

If you get one with a central club layout, you can stretch the legroom a little when you've got less than 8 people. I'd agree that with 8 people, it's going to be friendly!!

If you do get one, carry a spare ignitor box - that's the one thing that I've known the 550 to throw...and always in the wrong airport!!

[727 exec]

not sure if this helps - but - how about the S550?? better performance than the straight 550 without spending 560 money...

[Piston Twin]

Thanks for the advice so far:D

I did however forget to mention a couple of things. The aircraft will be required to operate to and from gravel airstrips, and we are now also looking at flying up to 1,800Nm.

Don't really think the C550 is really left in the race, and yes a citation X or CL601 would be nice but don't tink the budget goes that far.

PT

[727 exec]

gravel kit on a 125 - Bumz??

[GTJDS]

Citation V is the way to go although 1800NM is pushing it a little . C550 won't do it .

[Flight_Cru]

Flexjet....read beyond the question.....a C2 is a waste of space...Operated one in India...by the time the normal extras were fitted, and thoughts given to alternate fuel, there was no room for pax.....defeats the object....also I might be out of date but there were several 125s in australia....governent operations of soem type.....not sur but someone out there knows the answer to that...
727.....and forget crew bags.....as you say no room for pax bags either unless they are wash bags....

There was a gravel kit option on the 125, and they have operated from grass/hard sod fields too....Check out the early sales leaflets, its all there......a good 700 or a early 800 ahhhhhh thats an aircraft............

[Itswindyout]

I had given up all hope to see an interesting topic in GA....keep em comming guys.

[727 exec]

Got a long way to go before we can compete with our Pink friend over on the PPL page...but...

The Aussie Govt did have a 700 in years gone by - special flight type. It was sold about 6 years ago.

I think Bumz has hit the nail firmly on the thumb...a 700 with a gravel kit - reasonable price (less than a CV), sturdy, stand up loo, APU, 8 pax plus bags plus the range.

Sale, Mr Humphries?...Sale, Mr Lucas! (apologies to the Are You Being Served fans).

[FLEXJET]

and what about a Falcon 20?

That's a good aircraft !

Here is a list of some 20 and 200 for sale:
http://www.aso.com/i.aso/ForSaleListing.jsp

[727 exec]

The majority of the Falcon 20's are old, noisy ones - no good nowadays (not Chapter 3 let alone Chapter 4).

The re-engined ones will be BIG money (125-800 type values).

PT mentions the small budget...not going to run to an 800 or a 20-731 retrofit...but might a 700.

[Piston Twin]

Don't be to concerned about the budget guys, when I say it's limited were not buying a CL604 (would be nice though). I would have thought we would be looking at up to about US5-6 million.

It doesn't have to be a citation either, it's just thats what been put in front of me for now.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a 700, I assume we are talking Hawker?

Cheers
PT :ok:

[FLEXJET]

Definitely yes. HS125/700, built between 1977 and 1984.



Type/D.O.C./Range NM/TAS/Cabin Volume/price range

FALCON 20/1508/1300/430/700/$.350 to $1.70
FALCON 20F/1508/1450/430/700/$1.25 to $3.9
FALCON 20-5/1280/2200/455/700/$2.5 to $4.5
FALCON 20F-5/1220/2400/455/700/$3.75 to $6.60
FALCON 200/1950/2315/430/700/$3.9 to $5.95


HAWKER 600-731/1290/2050/420/604/$1.7 to $3.0
HAWKER 700/1290/2050/420/604/$1.9 to $4.1
HAWKER 800/1349/2450/430/604/$4.1 to $7.6

[bluesafrica]

Within your budget I think that Hawker 800 is the best solution and will fit your intended operation.
Blues

[Bumz_Rush]

welcome back blues, glad you agree with my Hawker thoughts......Bumz...(in cairo)

The 700 and 800 are hawkers. the 700 being perhaps the classic. the 800 having upgraded engines, and better avionics, more suited to RVSM etc, some have reversers, and all should come in in the budget.

So look at the 800, several good ones on the USA market at present, all up to current spec, and all inside your budget.

Two weeks at Dallas, and its all yours as captain. SFT being preference at present in relation to FSI, (See Bluses note on other forums.)

Good luck, but remember your type rated friends......Bumz.

[Bumz_Rush]

Just had a quick look at the listings. a 700 RVSM etc, with EFIS, and all updates ready to roll.
A 800A again all set up for this side. 5M$
A 700A RVSM etc, 3.2m$.

Plenty of A series, if you can use a N reg number.

[BBCapt]

Fosters used to operate an 800 ( predated by a 700 I think ) in Oz and even painted it to look loke a 'tinny'.

Also believe it was use as PR for the gravel kit too....

many hours on C550....none with more than a thin scattering of pax and full fuel though. Range wise an 800XP is very efficient and has a nice cabin even if luggage space is rather tight.

p.s belive Oz CAA will directly accept A series without conversions, dont take that as fact though....

[High Viz Vest]

Trouble is with the 2's I ve flown is as somone else said, fill them with fule and max pax is going to be 2 with no bags and it wont do 1800.

The V will also struggle to do that range at max fuel, and once again you cant take 8 pax.

I dont think they did a gravel kit for the V did they?

There are a couple of companies that mod the older citations though, the Eagle mod used to be a good one on the citation one, they also re engine them which increases the range. It might be worth looking into one of those?