flight visibility??

[fudgy2000]

Im stuck!! Is the minimum vis allowed for a PPL in class G, 5km?? How about a CPL?? Also ive seen 3km mentioned in regard to this? And 1800m if the aircraft is travelling less than 140kts. Which is it??

Also how about class D airspace?? and cloud??

Thanks for your help!!

[StrateandLevel]

The privileges of your licence (ANO Schedule 8) state that the minimum visibility for a PPL is 3Km. If you have a valid IMC rating, that becomes 1800 metres below cloud. These are the legal minima and form part of the licence privileges. The ANO can be found at: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm

In addition, there are the VFR minima for different Classes of airspace which can be found in the AIP ENR 1.2. For Class G airspace below F100 the visibility required is 5 Km however, for aircraft operating below 3000 feet at 140 Kts or less this reduces to 1500 metres, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. The AIP can be found at: http://www.ais.org.uk

Your PPL restricts you to 3 Km so you cannot take advantage of all of this reduction. A CPL holder can.

If you obtain a copy of LASORS there is a guide to UK VFR rules and procudures at the back. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF

[ROB-x38]

Interesting how systems differ. Here in OZ we don't have any change in VMC according to what license you hold.

Quick question S+L - what does this mean?
If you have a valid IMC rating, that becomes 1800 metres below cloud.
Does that mean a PPL holder with his/her IMC must have at least 1800m vis? Surely your instrument ticket allows you to fly in zero vis? (ie: through cloud :confused: )

[StrateandLevel]

ROB x38

The IMC rating is not an IR, but allows most of the IR privileges outside controlled airspace, and in Classes D and E.

The IMC rating effectivelly removes the 3 Km visibility limitation imposed on PPL holders, but imposes the 1800 metres limit when flying below cloud, for take off and landing.

The UK SVFR minima is 10 Km for PPL holders, this reduces to 3 Km for IMC rating holders.

Holders of JAA PPLs issued by States other than the UK have a license visibility minima of 1500 metres!

[BEagle]

How can you be 'below cloud' if you're in cloud?

[homeguard]

Strateandlevel

On the issue of the IMC rating the holder is absolved the requirement to maintain 3,000m in flight viz. The IMC holder may fly in full accordance with VFR in VMC, when below 3000' QNH 1500m CLEAR of cloud whether below it or above or to the side dosn't matter. 1nm (1852m) is for landing and taking off.

Bookworm

We need you! 1500m is the VMC minima. A JAA PPL is allowed to fly at the VMC in-flight minima (UK Licence restricts) If one says that the IMC pilot must have 1,852m for taking off and landing always, even when undertaking a VFR/IFR flight within VMC ................................. a contradiction arises, wheres the rub?

[fudgy2000]

thanks for your replies. But which one do I accept. The 5km visibility given for class D to class G airspace or my licence minima which gives me 3km?? Im confused??

Also how would having a CPL without IMC give me??

[Tinstaafl]

Fudgy, there's one set of limitations for the licence you hold (modified by an IMC or IR) and another set for the airspace in which you're flying.

You have to use which ever is most limiting at the time.

[bookworm]

The requirement is to obey your licence privileges.

For a non-IMC-rated pilot this means flying VFR (min vis 5 km) or SVFR (min vis 10 km unless notified lower) in controlled (A to E) airspace, and flying with a visibility of at least 3 km in uncontrolled (F/G) airspace. There is no requirement to maintain VFR in F/G, but if you don't, instrument flight rules on minimum altitude ("1000 ft rule") and cruising levels ("quadrantal rule") apply.

For an IMC-rated pilot, it means flying VFR or SVFR (min vis 3 km) in class A/B/C airspace. In D/E/F/G you can fly IFR too. This again requires compliance with IFR, which in D/E now includes the requirement for an ATC clearance. The only limitation, VFR or IFR, is a minimum flight visibility of 1800 m for take-off and landing.

homeguard, I think you are mistaken in saying "A JAA PPL is allowed to fly at the VMC in-flight minima" if by "JAA PPL" you mean one issued by the UK CAA. Schedule 8 Section 2 2(b) repeats the restrictions imposed on a UK PPL holder of 3000 m minimum flight visibility etc. That probably resolves the contradiction, doesn't it?

[homeguard]

bookworm

No, it dosn't. The JAA do not restrict the PPL to 3000m but only to the VFR minima of 1500m. The UK restricts a UK PPL to the 3000m.

On the issue of an IMC rating it has been my believe and those I have spoken to at the CAA that the UK restriction of 3000m is removed. (at least while the IMC is valid - needs clarifing also).

Therefore the IMC Pilot may fly VFR at 1500m. If that is the case then there is another anomaly in that the landing minima for the IMC rating is 1852m (1800m normally stated) unless the 1nm caveat is only for landing off an instrument approach, but if so, then what of the take off 1nm restriction.

Thats me question.

[DFC]

The IMC rated pilot requires 1800m for take-off and landing. They may fly VFR in 1500m visibility. They may fly IFR in 0 visibility (cloud).

There is no contradiction.

Depart in a visibility of 1800m or more, fly enroute in a visibility of 1500m or more and land in a visibility of 1800m or more will satisfy VMC for the IMC rated pilot.

Of course, his Friend with a JAA PPL from a non-UK country can depart, fly enroute and land all with 1500m visibility.....obvously a much better pilot. :=

While talking Special VFR don't forget that in many control zones within the UK, a UK PPL without IMC can fly special VFR in an entry/exit land notified for the purposes of Schedule 8 with 3Km visibilty.

They don't half make it simple.

Oh and another - the UK has a difference with ICAO regarding VMC in class D - the clear of cloud bit. Don't forget when abroad that a special VFR clearance may be required in 50K visibility if one can't remain 1000ft vertically from cloud. Since ICAO requirements say no less than 500ft enroute - this means that a ceiling of less than 1500ft requires a special VFR clearance to enter or exit a zone!!

Regards,

DFC

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The bit I've never quite got my head round ...

In F and G airspace the only requirement on me is 3km visibility, at any height (I've got a UK PPL, not a JAA one), according to my Air Law text book.

However above 3000' VMC minima are 5Km, 1000', 1500m (same text book). The JAA PPL minima appear to match the VMC minima, so "a JAA PPL holder can only fly in VMC" seems to be a reasonable statement here, but the UK PPL minima appear to allow flight in IMC.

So, with my UK PPL and no instrument qualifications I can fly in certain IMC conditions above 3000', at which point I have to follow IFR rules for safety height and quadrantal direction, yes?

(The reason I've never got my head round this is that I've never actually felt any desire to go flying at such a height in such conditions so it's not a practical question.)

[bookworm]

No, it dosn't. The JAA do not restrict the PPL to 3000m but only to the VFR minima of 1500m. The UK restricts a UK PPL to the 3000m.

Dunno what more I can add, homeguard. I've cited the restriction: ANO Schedule 8 Part A Section 2 PPL(A) 2(b).

It doesn't seem anomalous that a pilot is permitted to fly in reduced visibility enroute but requires certain conditions for take-off and landing, does it?

Gertude, looks like you've got your head around it just fine.

[GusHoneybun]

Gertrude,

Yup, you're correct. It's is one of the anomolies of that has yet to be ironed out. Your basic PPL states that outside controlled airspace you must remain in 3k vis, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. Nowhere in the ANO does it state you must remain VMC or VFR.

ANO Schedule 8.1(c)
He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane:

(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than 3km;

(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10 km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph; or

(iii) out of sight of the surface.



So, your in Class G at 4000 feet with 4 km vis, but your clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (one real hot and hazy summers day), the conditions are below VMC, but as a basic PPL you are flying legally as you satisfy the criteria of licence issue. Legal yes, sensible methinks no.

[fudgy2000]

GusHoneybun,

so does this rule only apply if you are above 3000ft in class f or G??

Whats SVFR??

[homeguard]

Where I think the anamoly lies is maybe in the definition of flight.

A flight is deemed to have commenced when the aircraft first moves under it's own power with the intention of taking off until coming to a halt after it has landed.

The UK IMC rating absolves the UK pilot from the UK restriction of requireing the 3k in flight minima. The ANO then will allow the IMC Pilot to take off and land using 1500m viz.

A foriegn JAA PPL (basic, 1hr of instrument appreciation/interpretation) flies to the UK in 1500m of viz and lands in 1500m of viz.

A UK/IMC holder (highly trained and qualified in IMC), who has flown VFR also within 1500m visibilty throughout the flight and is No. 2 to the foriegn chap to land, can't, because he requires 1800m. It seems odd and questionable.

The ANO clearly states that the 3000m UK restriction does not apply to the IMC holder - incidentally it dosn't appear to demand that the IMC Rating need be valid, only to be entered in the licence.

The rhetorical question of mine is; on the application of the 1800m minima, it is perhaps applicable only when taking off with the intention to fly IMC or on the completion of an Instrument Approach. i.e. when it is intended to use the priviledges of the IMC rating. When flying VFR 'F' and 'G' you are not exercising the priviledges of the IMC but holding the IMC (valid or not) exempts you differently from the licence restriction imposed on the Basic UK/PPL.

[152wiseguy]

It says somewhere in the JARs that a flight may not be commenced in vis below 3km and not otherwise conducted in vis below 1.5km therefore your JAA PPL holder flying around in europe actually needs 3km to take off on his flight. However if he then finds himself in worse weather he can still legally land SVFR in 1.5km.

[bookworm]

JAR-OPS 1.465 says that. Note that JAR-OPS1 only applies to public transport flights.

[vfrflyer]

The ANO then will allow the IMC Pilot to take off and land using 1500m viz.

NO IT DOESN'T


ANO SECTION 1 SCHEDULE 8 PAGE 18

the holder shall not fly:
(i)........
(ii)when the aeroplane is taking off or landing at any place if the flight visibility below cloud is less than 1800 metres.



http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF

[goddammit]

BRAVO vfrflyer.

Furthermore,

A foriegn JAA PPL (basic, 1hr of instrument appreciation/interpretation) flies to the UK in 1500m of viz and lands in 1500m of viz.

Well, if we're talking about a JAR-FCL PPL, then
ANO SECTION1 SCHEDULE8 PAGE11
The holder shall not......., fly as pilot in command.....
(i)on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than 3km.

So that's what they have to comply with in the UK!!

[bookworm]

Schedule 8 Part A Section 2 (which is what you're trying to cite, I think) sets out the privileges and limitations of a JAR-FCL licence issued by the UK CAA. It doesn't apply to holders of JAR-FCL licences issued by other states.

[vfrflyer]

Homeguard,

You are ignoring me again!
You are again wrong in so many ways. You said, referring to the uk ppl holder,

The ANO then will allow the IMC Pilot to take off and land using 1500m viz.

this is incorrect! As i, and DFC have pointed out

the holder shall not fly:
(i)........
(ii)when the aeroplane is taking off or landing at any place if the flight visibility below cloud is less than 1800 metres.


As for goddammits point, goddammit is correct! the ANO deatails the priviliges for the holder of a JAR licence flying in the UK, irrespective of where it was issued!!

(A further example of a UK difference is the fact one can't fly VFR at night in the UK. This also applies to all, irrespective of which state issued the licence!!)

[bookworm]

The difference, vfrflyer, is in the application of the two regulations:

Schedule 8 is cited by Art 22(1)(a) and pertains to licences issued by the CAA. It has no other purpose. A foreign licence is accepted by Art 21 (3) or (4) quite independently of Schedule 8.

By contrast, Rule 22 of the rules of the air, prohibiting VFR at night, and the rest of the Rules of the Air, get their force from Art 84, and apply to all aircraft flying in the UK, regardless of their nationality.

[vfrflyer]

Bookworm

I think i now see why the VFR at night is a different issue, thanks:ok:

I still don't accept that a jar-ppl can come over from france and fly VFR in 1500m vis.
The ANO schedule8 section 2 is stating what the licence priviliges are for the holder of a JAR-PPL, it doesn't say those priviliges only apply in the UK.
This is surely what JAR is all about, standardising Licencing. Are you suggesting that priviliges vary from one member state to another? If so what was the point of joining JAR??

[bookworm]

I still don't accept that a jar-ppl can come over from france and fly VFR in 1500m vis.
The ANO schedule8 section 2 is stating what the licence priviliges are for the holder of a JAR-PPL, it doesn't say those priviliges only apply in the UK.
This is surely what JAR is all about, standardising Licencing. Are you suggesting that priviliges vary from one member state to another? If so what was the point of joining JAR??

OK, here's the article that cites Schedule 8:

22 (1) (a) Subject to sub-paragraph (d) and paragraph (2), the CAA shall grant licences, subject to such conditions as it thinks fit, of any of the classes specified in Part A of Schedule 8 to this Order authorising the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, ...

And here's the one that says that the foreign PPL can come and exercise the privileges of his licence:

21 (3) Subject as aforesaid, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew required by or under this Order to be carried in an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom unless:
(a) in the case of an aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work, he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator; or
(b) in the case of any other aircraft, he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or under this Order, and the CAA does not in the particular case give a direction to the contrary

And here's the combination that says that he can come and do exactly the same thing in a G-reg:

21 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order

(4)(b) For the purposes of this Part of this Order, a JAA licence shall, unless the CAA in the particular case gives a direction to the contrary, be deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order.

Note that in no part of Art 21 does it say that limitations mentioned in Schedule 8 apply. It doesn't apply to licences other than those isssued by the UK CAA under the provisions of Art 22.

As for standardisation, privileges do indeed vary by state of licence issue: a basic PPL with a licence issued by the UK CAA is restricted to 3000 m min vis, 10 km for SVFR, and to flight in sight of the surface. None of those restrictions are part of JAR-FCL1.

JAR-FCL didn't change the situation in this regard. But it does mean that when you go to another JAA member state and roll up at a flying club, your JAR-FCL licence should be accepted for flight in their aircraft (subject to the same restrictions as you would be in the UK). In pre-JAA days, there was no obligation for your licence to be recognised for flight in aircraft registered in the other state. Some states (like the UK) said "fine", others wanted you to complete reams of validation paperwork.

[BOOKLADY]

My interest has been aroused.

I'm not really up to speed on FCL.

Bookworm has accurately quoted the ANO.

So i think we all agree that the CAA will issue licences as described in schedule8.
The priviliges of the jar-ppl are described in schedule8.
But i have to agree that, nowhere does it say that these priviliges only apply to licences issued by the CAA.

The way i read it, schedule 8 details the priviliges of a JAR-PPL while 22(1)a just says the CAA will grant such licences.

None of those restrictions are part of JAR-FCL1
Is jar-fcl1 a document? is it available online? What does it say are the priviliges of a JAR_PPL?

[bookworm]

You need to understand the structure of the ANO. The Statutory Instrument consists of a series of Articles. Those Articles incorporate by reference other chunks of text, notably the Schedules 1 to 15 and other pieces of legislation like the Rules of the Air Regulations. The Schedules do not in themselves mean anything -- they are meaningful only in the context in which they are incorporated in the ANO.

For example, if you didn't read Art 14, you might not realise that Schedule 4 applies only to aircraft registered in the UK. If you didn't read Art 15, you might not realise that Schedule 5 applies to all aircraft in UK airspace.

Schedule 8 is meaningful only as incorporated by Arts 22 to 26. The pages of CAP393 are now anotated to that effect.

To make matters clearer ;) the ANO actually distinguishes between a JAA licence which is a licence granted (by any JAA state) in accordance with JAR-FCL, and a JAR-FCL licence which is a licence refered to in Schedule 8 Part A Section 2 -- i.e. the licences the CAA issues.

Is jar-fcl1 a document? is it available online? What does it say are the priviliges of a JAR_PPL?

Yes it's online (http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html). I warn you, BOOKLADY, it's a riveting read and you won't be able to put it down... :zzz: In a rather complex way, it simply restricts the PPL to non-revenue flights, and to get at the bit you want, you need to look at the section on the privileges of the IR. That says you need an IR to fly IFR, unless national legislation requires you to fly IFR (e.g. at night) and you have appropriate qualifications. Guess which JAA state had that little gem put in. :)

You'll be relieved that it says nothing about provision of Approach Control Services outside controlled airspace... :)