foreign ATCOs at Joburg

[RUDAS]

Hi all.

I'm sure you've all heard the foreign-sounding ATCs on 126.7 recently,and I must say,they seem to be doing a sterling job,but I'm just interested where they are from? There's one chap who sounds Eastern European or something similar?

Anyway,just curious.Also,welcome on behalf of all those flying out of FALA to the new Irish ATC over there.

Cheers:cool:

[Mike Blackburn]

I was also surprised to hear a few foreign accents. Now don't get me wrong, I think that as long as someone is competent to do the job, they should be allowed to, BUT...... surely they could have found a South African or two to fill the posts?

I know that this sounds xenophobic, but I think that as a parastatal, (I am pretty sure they are one..) ATNS should be supporting the development of South African ATCOs. I can't beleive they couldn't find any potential candidates....

Just my two cents worth.....


(Takes cover....)

M

[Rhodie]

Mike - you can come out from under the desk...

MY 2 cents.... >

If I am flying around these sky's - all I want is the BEST person for the job...!!!

I remember years back, there was (I think) a Bulgarian / Yugoslavian (apologies if wrong) chap at FALA ATC - I struggled to sometimes understand him - BUT - he was brilliant in a very busy tower... I believe he moved to JHB Info and think I heard him there...

Long story short - don't give me a "political" controller, just because the book says you must have 'equity'. Give me someone who knows what the blazes he is doing...!!

I dont want an "ehhhhhh, tun to ehhhhhh hedding uhhhhhh, ehhhhh, tun left ehhhhh, 10 digriz and dezend to livil uhhhhhh siks, uh, zero zero zero uh, zero...."

(Oh, I think I'm gonna be in trouble for this one...!! :ooh: )

Shuttle, out.....

Cheers

R

:ok:

[fsrmg1]

Gents,

Also keep in mind that there is an ATC exchange program that many countries are involved in. I’m sure that as the world tries to unify by harmonizing all their respective standards, this situation will become more common & spread into more areas.

[bigmanatc]

An exchange program....?? where..which countries....tell me please...I want to exchange .....
An Irishman at FALA..?? now de`rs a ting.......!!

[126,7]

Most of the foreign accents at JHB are from Benoni. Ha ha only kidding, they are from Denmark. I think there are 7 or 8 of them over there. Dont know if they've taken more foreign guys or where they are from. Rumour has it that there are two or so guys from South America.

Mike:
The reason why the foreign chaps are there is because ATNS, which is parastatal, cant get enough New-South Africans trained. Believe me, they are trying!!
The foreign ATCs are there because Denmark has way too many and they lease them out to ATNS for 2 years or so. The South Americans are there because they earn mega bucks in SA. Every other nationality in Africa has also applied for jobs in SA.

Rhodie:
The Yugoslav that worked at FALA moved to JHB and is now in the Emirates.

ATNS is in a difficult position. They are struggling to keep their guys in the country and they are struggling to train affirmatives to meet the standards required by the large amount of traffic flying around the SA sky. Dont know why that is so, because the era of being "previously disadvantaged" is surely over!!

[B Sousa]

Mike Blackburn writes:"I can't beleive they couldn't find any potential candidates...."


Im sure they have plenty of them, just one problem none are the Politically Correct Color/Colour. Is that what you were trying to say Rhodie........

[27Foxtrot]

I don't know about FAJS, but FACT has two South American controllers.

They are mainly a quick fix stop gap so that ATNS' own "local is lekker" employees can get through their training.

There aren't THAT many people who want to become controllers, especially once they introduced the latest pre-requisites. No one with a 4 year degree is going to join ATNS for the salary they pay the Assistants.

The ones that get through tend to ****** off overseas ASAP.

So getting people through is taking time.

KBK

[Goldfish Jack]

The real reason that they are contracting foreigners has not quite been mentioned here yet. Whilst ATNS is upgrading its radar systems (Project SAATS), all the controllers have to be trained on the new equipment. This requires 2 weeks theory and 1 weeks prac on the new equipment.

To be able to do this and still work a normal roster and stay legal within hours of duty is nigh well impossible. Hence as a stopgap, the powers that be went and found a whole lot of foreign controllers to help us during the transition period.

Most of them are on 2 year contracts and many will be gone by the end of the year, when we should have trained many ATCs and started the transition to the new equipment.

Like SAA employed Chileans and Comair Scandinavians, we also did the same thing to tide us over.

Hey 27F with an attitude like that you wont get far, if I can say. Controlling is a great career and one in which you have to have a real love of aviation and enjoy it. As to the salaries, they might not be great but we cant complain. And as to the controllers going overseas, you are welcome to it. 40deg in a flat on the 13th floor when you have signed off work and you stay there until you have to go to work. No thanks. I sign off, go to gym, down to the beach, play my sports, hit whereever I want to go and drink ( I do not need a license to do that) and live a great life - who wants to go and build sand castles?

Sounds like you one of those guys who wants to start at the bottom, get paid R1m a month and do nothing for it, and have 6 days a week off and the 7th on standby.

Signing off with KBK, certainly gives the game away - a frustrated pilot maybe? You should check on your facts - how many ATCS have left for overseas in the last 2 years?

[Duff Man SA]

well said Goldfish....
I think all you ATCO's do a fantastic job, no matter where you are born. Also well said wrt chosing life over cash, and starting on the bottom wrung of this industry for fa pay. gotta start somewhere....
If I wasnt lucky enough to be doing what I am, being in the tower would sounds like a fantastic job.

Now, after heaping praise on all ATC, can I please have the left next time?:D

[clipboard]

:ok: Goldfish, You've hit the nail on the head bro!

Most of the South African parastatals are battling to staff their departments with suitably qualified affirmatives. The Government paid something like 800 million bucks to outside consultants last year to teach these boys how to do their jobs. Remember that a lot of these people were living in excile outside of SA, and since the "political liberation" of SA, they returned in droves, and because they were loyal to the ANC, were mostly absorbed into Government Departments of some sort. Their qualifications????? Mostly Russian, East Block, Cuban or African Universities or Colleges. Some none at all. From their the Manto's & the Nkozama Zuma's.

As not many previously disadvantaged individuals (PDI's) had any schooling in aviation or aviation related business in the past, the CAA and ATNS are now desperate to train PDI's to take over from the "old boys" so that the industry can become more "representative" of the locals. The Problem???? The "old boys" are not interested in any transfer of skill, and plays the game very close to the heart. The reason???? If they effect a transfer of skill, they get replaced too quickly. This is exactly what is happening at the CAA. the old boys won't budge!

These issues frustrate the Government no end, and Ministers and Departemental DG's have got their hands in their hair. Solutions are scarce.

The CAA is now advertising for a new CEO, and they say that they hope to find a suitably qualified person of color to fit in with the Governments Employment Equity Bill. So why bother to entertain applications from suitably qualified white faces? Why don't they just make it clear that they are not interested in any white face? That way people will not waste unnecessary time, effort & money.

They do indicate that the person should be a SA Citizen. I wonder why? There are so many black foreigners employed at the CAA at the moment, and one can only but wonder why? Why employ foreigners when the Government should have an obligation to its own folk, even if it means taking years to school or educate them in aviation? Zimbabwians, Lesotho-ans, Nigerians etc. These people are taking the bread from the locals, and again one can only but wonder why? I definately will not be voting ANC this year!!:yuk:

[126,7]

Clipboard
The "old boys" are not interested in any transfer of skill,
I take it that means training? In that aspect ATNS and the CAA are a little different: The lowly ATC working Tower/App/Acc doesn't get asked, but gets a student assigned to him. He then sits with him looking over his shoulder while he is working trying to help him along and not make any serious mistakes. This process takes several months.

The PDIs (nice abreviation by the way) get carried through the college at Smuts and get "given" a passmark. (to a certain extent)
As you say, the government needs/wants to fill the ranks to proportions representing the country's population. Problem is as follows: Out of a possible 100 PDIs, 4-5 make it with a great deal of help. They are however not at a standard to work at the big centers and thats why you find them at Upington, Kimberly, Pietersburg, Pilansberg, Mmabatho etc etc.
As I said in a previous post " Don't know why that is so"

[Radar Pete]

Goldfish Jack - Your ignorance knows no bounds!

To put the record straight, ATNS did employ foreigners due to a staff shortage. To imply that this is to allow for training on SAAATS is diabolical. Bottom line is that ATNS falls short on world standards when it comes to staff requirements. Two aspects come to mind on this:

1. The NATS UK audit that was done approx. 10 years ago where NATS advised that FAJS ACC ATC requirement was 30 ATC's and not the 20 as per ATNS policy. The 'formula' to determine 'minimum staff requirement' has still not been ammended to 'world class standards'. In fact the audit was to a large extent ignored.

2. A Canadian company specialising in ATC rostering software was approached to solve the rostering problems in the late 90's. Why was it not purchased? Well the roster could not fill all the requirements when the SACAA CARS parameteres were fed in. In other words: too few controllers, which then begs the question, are SA ATC's working legally in line with the CARS?

In both instances ATNS took the route of ignoring the facts and insisting that there own formula was still correct. In fact even with the foreigners ATNS still falls short. Look at countries where system change overs took place. Australia and Sweden are 2 such examples, they at least overstaffed for the training and change over. How does it work in SA? Easy, spend all morning in training to work the afternoon rush behind a screen, real professional.

As for your blatant ignorance of life in the Middle East. I would rather not comment here. Rather it sounds like you need to get out of your little fish bowl once in a while. Working with ATC's from all over the world is really an educating experience. We all do the same job a little different, what a way to learn.

Another thing to consider is the current situation at the ATA. Students fail and are reinstated after a board of enquiry. Students are unfairly (to themselves and the system) fast tracked to become APP controllers, then sent to FAJS. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

The only thing you really need to consider is: are you providing a safe service and are you being adequately backed by your employer? Think long and hard and think beyond the fish bowl. Think of 'world class standards' and 'preferred provider' and lastly think how many dedicated ATC's work in the whole of SA compared to world class ATCC's overseas.

Cheers

[Goldfish Jack]

126,7

Clearly you are not an ATC, Nowadays one has to be licensed to be an OJTI instructor by the CAA. It requires completion of an approved instructors course and then several shifts of dual on instruction before you can give instruction. It might have been done like that 20 years ago ( it was - I was a product of that!!!) but not now.

Training files are kept and the due process is followed (required labour law legislation). I can only speak for where I work, but my word we have had some really great PDIs ( your words) qualify at our centre. They might be inexperienced but they do a great job and are not too shabby as radar controllers at all - quite a pleasure to work with some of them, in fact.

You are also right about some of them going to the smaller ATSUs - that is fact and maybe they should not be there either, but that is not for me to decide and fate will decide the outcome there - it appears that some recommendations are not always listened to.

Hey radar Pete - don't now where you get your facts from, but why do so many SA controllers now in the middle east want to come back? We have just taken another one back and there is another one wanting to come back here.

As to roster requirements, I work at present 17-19 shifts a 28day cycle, have 7-8 days off, an admin shift and the rest are on standby, so I cant complain. Are we working legally in requirements of the CARS - most definitely.

Speak to the foreigners at our ATSU and they will tell you they are out of there at the end of December, so it must be true.

Are we providing a safe service - cant remember when I had a colleague removed from app and area (sorry I can now - 2 years ago to the month)., so I would say yes we are.

Luckily work is not everything to me - I need my time away from work and you can't get that quality of life in the middle east no matter what you say. I can only quite a senior pilot from one of the local airlines who says "you HAVE to say you like it there, whether you like it or not, you cant exactly say you dont like it"

Tell me in the middle east, after work can you do what I did today ; Go to Clifton catch a tan and look at some lovely women ( not dressed up in bedclothes and masks), spend an hour at gym, go for a run up the mountain, umpire a hockey match and then go out drinking in the waterfront with some mates??? I think not. Let me guess what you chaps do, apart from visiting the British Club, go from one dune to the next in a 4x4 or from one shopping centre to the next.

Oh well must go and sleep now - am very tired and overworked

Hawker slowly : I dont work at Joberg, but will pass your request for the left runway on - I am sure you can use it, but ACSA might get a bit tense if you want to have it!!!!!!!!!

[126,7]

I would hazzard a guess and say that the guys comming back to SA from the midlle east do so because they've been out of the country long enough to earn some real money, see the world and probably have enough cash to buy a place at Clifton or Camps Bay. Home will be home for most and only a small minority will not come back to SA.

They choose CPT because of the beach and the hill, the waterfront and the little traffic. No stress until retirement is the philosophy here! Dont get me wrong, I like Cape Town too.

Judging from figures in one of the other threads about CPT tfc movements, CPT is the place to go and relax. Maybe that's why they choose CPT above burning out on the Reef.

[Radar Pete]

Thanks for the interesting info Goldfish Jack. Your ignorance of the middle east stupifies me.

Well today I went to the gym (overlooking palms, beach and sea), then went to relax at the beach whilst waiters served me cocktails whilst I gazed upon the many gorgeous looking women on the beach in skimpy bikinis (wish they would perve at me). Once again, do your research. Yes, I agree, there are people from many countries here that do not enjoy it here. Surprising thing is they did not enjoy it in their own country either and it does not matter where you send them they will never be happy. This place, like any, is what you make of it. I love most of it as does my wife and kids. Yes, it does have its quirks but its what makes it different and enjoyable. SA to has its quirks, one only has to mention crime. What is really great here is the opportunity to travel both within the middle east and abroad. We could get into a raging debate about the merits of either but would serve no purpose as your exposure to what I'm talking about is limited. Consider, once again, how many ATC's have left and how many are returning. Last count was that since 1991 about 100 ATC's left for the ME, you talk of 2 returning??????

I guess the point is that you are missing the vital clues that are not evident in Cape Town. Consider that Cape Town has always been the station that most ATC's want to go to. Great city and little traffic. Therefore Cape town has hardly ever suffered the shortages that FAJS has over the years. FAJS is still short of staff. What is being done? ATNS is trying but hands are tied through legislation. I am also impressed, 7-8 days per 28. I thought things were good?

Once again Goldfish Jack, do your research before shooting your mouth off. One disgruntled pilot and 2% of the ATC's is hardly evidence.

126.7

You got it mostly right. They settle any financial worries and settle in FACT. Seems they got it right. Also whilst in the ME they get to travel the world.

[EltorroLoco]

Hey dudes,

Methinx u may have veered off the point slightly. We have got Danes, Uruguayans (sorry 4 the spelling), a Macedonian and an Estonian @ FAJS at the moment. I must admit, no-one here cares whether they are black, white, pink or purple - as long as they can do the job. A few (rightly) get peeved because the imports training gets slotted in b4 the locals since they are on short contracts.

Working @ FAJS, it is without a doubt that they were brought in to release locals for their SAATS (the holy gail of ATS systems, which will bring about the end 2 all holds and delays - not!) training. My impression is that this import was never meant to ease the working conditions of the locals - it's all about meeting deadlines and targets, and ATNS' budget is limitless when it comes 2 this, or so it seems...

Anyhow, they r all gr8 dudes, even if they talk a little funny. It's gr8 2 c how our technique rates against theirs, it helps one improve.

Come 2 think of it, who cares what goes on here. ATNS is the quinessential monopoly, and only consults with the ATCs and the Airlines so that it can tick it off the checklist. They never intend to actually listen 2 what anyone has 2 say!

[gofor]

SPOT ON EltorroLoco!!

Metinks Radar Pete (not ex jhb - thats clear) seems to have a little chip on the shoulder.

Firstly why mention 1 disgruntled pilot (2 by the way that I know of who got the best in both worlds). But still one or two others I believe in Ireland and switzerland doing Atc. So to get to the point if you want to do the sums at least get them right before slagging people. The 2 of you sound like old school mates having a love/hate thing going

Life in the UAE , don't get me wrong, I think is great as long as you are there for the wonderfull experience of it, good work conditions and a first world country - rather than being miserable there for years in and out trying to save every last cent! Work I think still leaves something to be desired but still demanding at the centre and DXB.

JHB ATC still is tops (as far as the SA ATC fraternity is concerned)as regular pilot talk will reveal and most SA ATC's adrenalin just gets going thinking about controlling in the TMA. Why Slag any centre as you should all be professional in the job trained for and learn from the other nationalities - just cause they talk funny don't make them stupid - The east block guys that worked at JNB (at least 3 I can recall) were very competent.

Back to the Danes - I believe they are getting the same stuff JNB is upgrading to in 2 years from now so they get a bit of exposure in SA too - as well as the Kruger Park etc etc. In years to come you may see common equipment used world wide with common ratings held by ATC's and once they are validated you could see yourselves doing temp basings allover the world - Then you can turn around, pat yourself on the back and be world wise.

By the way the ruskies in the bikinis at Jumeirah are more freindly in the pub I'm told. At clifton at least what you see is what you get:E

[ZRH]

I used to work at Jo-burg together with a few Yugoslavs. They are s:mad:t hot ATCs now working in Germany. As mentioned on this forum, another one is in the UAE. Dont know any of the new guys there, as it seems I've been away too long.

gofor

There are two South Africans working in Switzerland and another is joining up in July. Then there is one in Frankfurt. Out of all these guys, I think I am the only one that's planning on going back to SA one day. Once I have enough dough to pay for a house cash. It wont be in Cape Town though.

As far as working with foreign ATCs goes, you can only learn from them. They might speak a little different but that doesnt do anything to their controlling skills. Over here I am the one that speaks funny:}

I tend to think that ATNS hired the foreigners because of the severe lack of guys and I wonder if another batch of locals isn't going to leave as soon as they've finished their 5 year contracts.....

[Radar Pete]

Hi Giys

Not so much veering off the subject than correcting someone with blindfolds. Yes I agree, working with foreigners is great. We have an American who has just joined us from The US of A. Boy, do they do things differently. Bottom line is the guy is a good controller. I find information sharing amongst the expats a big bonus.

Gofor (same as the nickname, if so Hi, if not tell him I say Hi)

Yes ex-FAJS and no to the chip on the shoulder. I just cannot fathom how people make statements about things they have absolutely no clue about.

Bottom line is; with or without the foreigners, ATNS is still short staffed. Will the training through the ATA be enough to replace the foreigners when the time comes? I certainly hope so as I think that the ATC's at FAJS will get the short end of the stick once again. I hope things do work out for the best and history does not repeat itself.

Interesting though, many Aussies have headed abroad to do real controlling. The system in Aus makes for boring controlling. They reckon that all you become is a computer operator as the system does everything for you. This is NOT my opinion but that of the gents here. Interesting times ahead methinks..........

[banner boy]

Radar Pete, Haven't heard from you for a while. (Ex Tongwe)Good to see you again. A change from the old aeropages days when you were the only voice in the wildeness on our old site, giving the atc view.

So what is all the fuss about here now? Read the lot and as usual we are all chasing tails. Get tit i mean it off your chests boys and girls.

The other day there was this young, sounded young and Irish lad at FALA. It started getting busy with some broad in a lear doing 220knot circuits and flying rings around some 172's in the pattern. I was finished with a detail out in the Vaal and on the way back called, asked re entry, told to continue and I'll call you back. Eventually over LA I managed to get a word in edge ways as to what was next. By then Warrick had taken over and was breaking all existing land speed records for the most words spoken in a minute. I was told to vacate the controlled and hang around the south limit untill called back.
Ten minutes later , I sneeked a quick word in and said Hi and when asked my distance I said 10 miles out, ahhh but the zone is 12 so you are in my space and hanging around the ILS, so Fox Oscar out to 12 miles and I will call you back. 20 minutes later and the request for an air tanker to do an inflight refuel, I was cleared in and told to speed it up. Reduce height to 5000 and then bat in the lear came around again, so a little orbit and back on the center line. Ever needed a piss so bad that the kidneys ache and the eyes water, standing up in the seat, up against the peddles, simulating a flying pervert with both sticks in hand. The Piper Pawnee is a great plane. I approached , landed and was asked by ground to contact the tower after landing. Oh boy big trouble now.

I was reminded that one does not enter controlled airspace without permision, even if you are a ex crop sprayer with as many procedural skills as the captain of the titanic. I apologised and even the excuse of being told to continue, I was out of order. I didn't mind, by then I had passed water, so NOTHING mattered.

Many thanks ATC in Sa. You guys and girls do a wonderful job.

WDS

[gofor]

Radar Pete - not the same Goaf's. Just wanted to set the record straight - I can't count 100 atc's (guess 70 or so) that are ex SA in the UAE since 1991 and can count at least 12 that left since then from the UAE to SA, HKG, ZRH, Dublin and 2 went to fly - Unfortunately JNB only got 2 (Hope my count is about right, not counting 3 who were back in SA for a few years before returning to the UAE). I think it is more like 15% that have left the UAE?

You didn't come across as an ex jhb app/area type - sorry, I am pro life in the UAE, as well as the work at JNB -life is like that and you can't be at both places at once for the best of both.

ZRH - Hello there long time no see as well as the other psuedo german from Bloemies now in EDDF. Agreed not CPT!!


:yuk:

[Radar Pete]

Greetings Banner Boy. Prefered the Tongwe callsign. Hope all is well.

Gofor

I think you are closer to the mark, I did wing it a bit at trying to guess and after some thought I think the mark is closer to 80, but I might be counting pre 1991 departures as well.

Cheers

[gofor]

Radar Pete

No Sweat - Pre '91 could have only been ex-zim/rhodie types who did touch and goes at JNB and left around '87, 3 SA's on foreign passports up to '91, the real influx was only '94 onwards which took 1/5 of the SA workforce to the UAE by '97!! That is working on these figures - +-38 in the UAE in '97 and SA's total controller contingent in '94 was +-147, JNB in '94 then sufferred further with 4 off to NZ (one of these back to SA and 2 to the ME/HKG)!! Money only makes you happy for so long, working conditions/lifestyle mean more - hence many controllers are in the UAE coming up 10 years now. The money in SA is also not bad and lifestyle is great - depending on how you asses it - hence many SA types defend staying in SA - rightly so as we all make our own choices.

Have fun in the sun.

CHEERS

PS: Anybody know if the Danes in JNB are ex AUH/DXB??

[ZRH]

Our Danes here say that the Danes in SA are all from CPH. Didnt here of any of them having done time in the UAE.