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maxalt
21st Sep 2001, 05:49
I found this site with a simple search in Yahoo. It's called Young Muslims Online and it makes for some extremely interesting reading.

Here a sample;

As far as the halaal and the haraam is concerned, generally, everyone knows it is haraam to kill women and children. However, if it was Muslims, don't be so quick to brand them, as there are many deep issues here. Lets stay on the fence, for the time being insha'Allah.

As far as the Pentagon goes, alhamdulillah, and maybe it would've been wiser to completely finish the job there.

Most important thing, guys, lets stay united and quiet until something happened. The last thing we want is disunity. My advice if some non-Muslim were to ask me, would be to simply point out the general rule, of FORBIDDENCE of killing civilians, without mentioning the specific situation. Perhaps it would be worth bringing up the political reasons behind such hate though, what with the Iraqi bombings (which no one cares about), the intifadha, the UN racism convention, the Kashmir issue, the sanctions against Afghanistan, etc. How many times have the US done the same thing and got off scot-free?

At the end of the day, whether is was halaal or haraam, Allah decreed it and smashed the Americans (the so-called superpower) with something that was coming to them from the Lord of all the Worlds.

Allah knows best, but this could escalate, possibly into a world war. But perhaps there is some good in this as Allah would not be unjust to his servants just because of the actions of some. If someone really was interested in Islam, they will still insha'Allah research the situation and see whether it was just the Muslims or Islam itself. And as far as WE are concerned (ie the Muslim Ummah at large), if the the United Shaytans of America want to retaliate, then so be it if thats what it'll take to awaken the sleeping giants amongst us.


If you want more, go to this address; http://www.ymuk.net and visit the FORUM link there.

Slasher
22nd Sep 2001, 01:32
Yeh its going to take a few years till the great stupid islamic unwashed get it through there mat-thrashing heads that the US is at war with terrorism, not islam. Terrorists are merely hijacking islam because islamics are generaly easily led around like sheep.

Hey weres our islamic G-OODY? His silence is deafening.

Wizdum
22nd Sep 2001, 03:01
You must be a happy man Slasher.

VFE
22nd Sep 2001, 05:15
Can't help but think that racial tension will only escalate in western countries in the coming weeks/months/years. Mainly from mentally challenged yobs seeing what is unfolding and turning it into something it isn't ie; a war against religion/race. It is naivety stripped down to it's most basic form, racism, and it will be coming from both apparent 'sides' too.

Last night in the city I live in, a 16 year old white youth was walking home with his girlfriend. He was reportedly set upon by a group of 10 Asian youths and beaten to death in front of his girlfriend. The police say there is nothing to link this seemingly motiveless attack to any racial issue. *Cough* Excuse me? I wonder......

I am in little doubt that some white youths will now take the law into their own hands and dish out some sort of meaningless 'retaliation' for this senseless attack. Already as I left the city centre earlier this evening the police were out and trouble makers were readying themselves for a night of violence. And so the cycle will continue. Tragic.

The point I am trying to make (if there is one!) is that it takes two to tango and ignorance is the mother of all f*ck ups. The poor lad last night will no doubt be quickly forgotten by the media. That makes me angry -I will not even attempt to deny it but for the harmony of the city it will have to be the case.

I can see there'll be many more instances to come in this city/country/world of people quite simply 'getting it all wrong' with tragic consequences. I weep.

VFE.

[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: VFE ]

maxalt
22nd Sep 2001, 06:42
There was racial tension in the UK long before the acts of September 11th. Have you forgotten the riots in Leeds/Bradford this summer?

As a matter of fact the thing that surprises me most is the level of tolerance being shown by the Brits to the kind of mentality being openly displayed by some Muslims.

Tonight I watched a protest rally in London on the evening news. Fundamentalist muslims held a vocal demo (lots of Allah-Akbarring, and 'up Bin Laden'ing) outside the Pakistani embassy, decyring the Paki governments decision to aid the US in pressuring the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden.
The bobbies stood by to keep order, and no one got arrested.

Meanwhile in Kabul a group of German aid workers is under trial for their lives...their crime, supposedly inciting Christianity!! God help those poor ******s, they're f***ed

And then you find a website like the 'Young Muslims' one, where they are espousing the right of Bin Ladens cause! Yes...read it! That's what they're actually saying!

And these are not 'hard liners' or 'extremists' but rather the ordinary (supposedly) moderate muslim voices! Why aren't they arrested for inciting terrorism? :eek:

If they were Irish and were advocating the IRA's use of terror, or screaming their support for an IRA mass murderer in the streets of London...would that be different?

Seems to me that there is some kind of fear to act being shown here, because unlike the IRA...these mussies have friends, and the western world needs their friends support now.
Kid gloves being used as a result?

HugMonster
22nd Sep 2001, 06:52
The point that they have missed is that this is not a war on Islam. This is a war on terrorism. If it were the former, they'd know all about it.

Bin Laden is not being hunted because he is a Muslim, nor are his followers. They are being hunted because they are suspected of causing the most heinous mass murder in recent years.

If anyone wants to support him in this, then as far as I am concerned, lock them up.

I look forward to Muslim community leaders in this country explaining that to their co-religionists.

maxalt
22nd Sep 2001, 07:30
Well OK, but their rationalising and justification of the atrocities does nothing to convince me that they are just 'mistaken' in feeling victimised.

People have often argued on this forum about the 'religious war' in the North of Ireland, and they've been wrong to charecterise it as such, because it is not a war about religion. Catholicism and Protestantism do not advocate murdering non-believers, or even those who persecute you...they recommend you turn the other cheek in fact.
But Islam is a religion which advocates murder of infidels, and Jihad against those who oppose you.

I have to ask...is there really such a thing as a moderate muslim? If so...what exactly does that mean? What do they believe in? Turning the other cheek like a Christian perhaps?

VFE
22nd Sep 2001, 15:50
No Maxalt I most certainly have not forgotten the race riots in Leeds, Bradford and Oldham. The point I am making is that it is very likely to incease substantially now.

I am friends with quite a few Muslims and their opinion on the way the Taliban have interpreted the reaction from the US is one of total disgust. They think it terrible that they should try and make it into a war against Islam but it does not surprise them at all. That's the nature of the beast. But I am not naive. I know that Muslims will support other Muslims for the sake of their religion. To what extreme they take the support to is down to the individual.
I am aware that deep down some of my Muslim friends will sympathise with the Taliban reaction. That doesn't bother me because I am a live and let live kinda guy. I decided a few years ago that I would give up trying to foister my opinions/beliefs on other people because people just don't listen and the world becomes a more hostile place. I find it more difficult to not have a problem with anyone and to have no opinion on certain issues but it's a route of less bother and ultimately a more pleasant way to be. The positve side to this approach is that I rarely have arguements with anyone. The world is a more pleasant place. Treat thy neighbour as you wish to be treated yourself - that's my motto for life and if everyone did that simple thing then the world would be a much more safer place. Where are the John Lennon characters when you need 'em? It seems simple to me and too simple for others but that's life.

My worry, as I have indicated previously, is the stupid buggas in my home town who read their own meaning into it all and start causing trouble for innocent folks who probably don't know a Muslim from a Christian.

I'm off to hug a tree! :)

VFE.

[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: VFE ]

G-OODY
22nd Sep 2001, 15:57
I’m sick to the bone hearing about your dim generalizations. I ask God to open up your narrow minds, in search of the truth.

“I have to ask...is there really such a thing as a moderate muslim? If so...what exactly does that mean? What do they believe in? Turning the other cheek like a Christian perhaps?”

What exactly does it mean? (and remember you asked, so listen and absorb it in with an open mind, without any hatred or prejudice)
..it means either a male or female, who:

1.) believes in one God, the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed.
2.) believes in his absolute authority, power and control of the universe.
3.) believes in his angels, prophets, revelations.
4.) believes in the last day, the day of judgment and the resurrection
5.) leads a righteous life, full of honesty, sincerity and kindness, committing no indecency and seeking forgiveness from God when he does.

This is a moderate Muslim. You will find he smiles wherever he goes, worships and glorifies his lord wherever he goes, speaks words of kindness and is a family man. THAT IS ALL! I am a moderate Muslim and a pilot. I know full well there are people who testify to the above but do not appear as Muslims, therefore to be a Muslim is a condition within ones own heart and God knows best.

(remember there are Christians who have difficulty accepting the trinity, maybe they too are "Muslim", at least by the Qurans definition!)

RE: ymuk, One source is never enough, would you like me to give you the URL’s of websites where people oppose this sort of view? I have loads!

“However, if it was Muslims, don't be so quick to brand them, as there are many deep issues here.”

The Quran says: to kill any person, except for a moral cause is like killing the whole of mankind. This chap is wrong and right. Killing the innocent, whoever they may be is NOT allowed, but YES there are some deep issues here, which are always disguised by the media and ignored by the politicians.

“As far as the Pentagon goes, alhamdulillah, and maybe it would've been wiser to completely finish the job there.”

Lets examine his mentality, for listening to the view of one person can never be realistic. Are all whites racist? Are all blacks thieves? Are all refugees scroungers? Similarly not all Muslims are terrorists? Firstly he is full of the same hatred as the terrorists (if it was these so-called Muslim extremists of which the evidence is so convenient, as usual). Now lets examine the reason behind this hatred. According to him the men in the pentagon are providing the bullet which penetrates the heads of innocent Palestinians – is he wrong?

“My advice if some non-Muslim were to ask me, would be to simply point out the general rule, of FORBIDDENCE of killing civilians, without mentioning the specific situation.”

So it’s evident he’s trying to justify the killings one way or another. You can liken him to a certain racist white bunch. Just the same, only a different colour.

“Perhaps it would be worth bringing up the political reasons behind such hate though, what with the Iraqi bombings (which no one cares about), the intifadha, the UN racism convention, the Kashmir issue, the sanctions against Afghanistan, etc. How many times have the US done the same thing and got off scot-free?”

I dare ask you, is he entirely wrong?

I believe it was an American Black leader back in the 60’s who once said: “One day, America will pay for the atrocities it has committed on the world, killing their leaders and destabilizing their countries.”

Why oh why do we judge all Muslims on the basis of what a few do, on the basis of what a few say. Why oh why are Muslims given a few minutes to explain themselves yet lousy politicians need 3 terms to explain themselves.

The fact remains and you see the hatred in these people; that there are hidden issues which are causing misery for hundred of thousands. Some are driven to senseless desperate acts such as those that happened on the 11th – who the hell do you think you are, saying their cause is not legitimate?

The West turns around and says “these terrorists are after our freedom, our country and our way of life” – isn’t this just one method of denying the truth, as politicians are always so good at. I’m not denying the Middle East has it’s own problems. Just as the West has problems within its society, the East has problems within its society, and yes corruption exists on both sides too, it’s only done a little more professionally in the West, always disguised by the forgiving media.

The markets are crumbling, some money worshipping dust farter somewhere is going to be a very rich man. Is this whole episode really as straightforward as it seems – I think not!

Peace.

You can take those earmuffs off now Slasher
:p

[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: G-OODY ]

lame
22nd Sep 2001, 16:37
G-OODY,

Your post merely confirms what most people are feeling towards Muslims in general now, how on Earth can you possibly justify the mass murder of some 6000 innocent civilians, just because some Muslims feel hard done by???????

I sincerely hope that they rid the World of these mass murderers and ALL that support them.........

:mad: :mad: :mad:

HugMonster
22nd Sep 2001, 17:07
lame, you are behaving like another fool unable to read a post.

G-OODY did NOT justify this atrocity. He sought to explain why Muslims feel aggrieved towards the USA. The two are very, very different. If you can't understand that, then your lack of differentiation makes me worried. It is the same lack of differentiation that sees all catholics in NI (even 5-year-old schoolgirls) as "fenian bastards".

VFE
22nd Sep 2001, 19:53
Well said Huggy.

mutt
22nd Sep 2001, 23:00
To answer the original question, this newspaper article portrays the feelings in this part of the world. I'm not offering any personal opinion on it.

As war drums beat louder and American troops are being rushed to the Gulf and the subcontinent, a number of disturbing questions are beginning to emerge. Questions that point toward a stench that do not necessarily seem to be coming out of Afghanistan. Asides from the $10 question of who has the most to gain from all of the meaningless terror of Sept. 11, there are other niggling pointers to a far more devious plot than what has been reported or could be imagined.

To begin with, why did CNN use footage from 1991 showing Palestinians celebrating a Scud attack during the Gulf War, broadcasting it as a live shot on Sept 11, 2001? Shown repeatedly on Headline News and CNN in the USA, this footage probably inflamed more Americans and evoked anti-Arab emotions than the attack itself. It was only moments after the attacks that these scenes were displayed. Just how long does it take to gather a bunch of people, abandoned and hungry and jump up and down in front of the camera in Palestine? And did anyone notice the time zone? A spokesman at the BBC has confirmed use of this old footage by CNN. They have copies of such material in their film vaults.

Then there is the mystery of the 'no-shows'; those employees who failed to show up for work on the day of the bombings. We are talking about thousands here. And believe me, they are not as tardy as we are in this part of the world when it comes to attendance and punctuality. Did this not cross anyone's minds? And what about the reports on the 5 Israelis atop a high tower who were filming the events as they unfolded, hooting and hollering? All we know is that they were eventually deported. How convenient!

All four Black Boxes were supposedly destroyed and rendered unusable. This in spite of the fact that they are designed specifically for plane crashes which result in insurmountable conditions...Yet one of the hijackers' passport supposedly survives fire and heat of over 1000 degrees Fahrenheit and is found in perfect shape? CNN reported that one of the hijackers' passport was in the area 'around' the World Trade Center. What kind of idiots do they take us for?

Aside from the idiocy of any suggestion that a passport would survive a plane crash that is allegedly so severe it destroys the virtually indestructible Black Box, we are also led to believe that a passport, made of nothing but paper 'flew away' out of the hijacker's pocket, down a few blocks from the WTC grounds. Why a few blocks away? Could it be because Bin Laden wanted to make sure it was in a place out of everyone's sight?

Then there was the identifying of suspects. They threw just about every Arab in the barrel, including one who had been dead for a couple of years! Also included were some living folk who came out and reported there true whereabouts. One was in his home in Jeddah, and the other operating a flight out of Tunis.

And the car found in the underground parking lot at the airport in Boston. How convenient that Arabic material was strewn all over the back seat for one and all to see. If Bin Laden was indeed behind all of this, then his planning is really made up by nothing more than chumps. And a flight handbook in Arabic? Give me a break! Talk to any flight crew member, and they would scoff at you. Training material is always in the language of the equipment one is training to fly on. And the aircraft flown were assembled in Seattle!

And probably the greatest contradiction in this whole scenario is the FBI report that two of the Arabic hijackers were involved in a bar altercation in Florida some time before the bombings. This was over the price of drinks. Now I've come across some fanatics, and let me assure you that not one of them would be preparing to meet his Maker in a state of inebriation, or with alcohol coursing through his veins. Makes the whole concept of jihad meaningless if you ask me. Or was it simply to draw attention to their presence, another red herring if you will?

Yes, something is not right here. And consider this...it was only through the Freedom of Information Act that a couple of decades later we came to know the real truth about some historical events. That Robert Kennedy was at the bedside of Marilyn Monroe moments before she died. Or that J. Edgar Hoover the then director of the FBI had advance information on the plot to assassinate JFK, including the when and where.

Remember the 'rebel without a cause' that macho figure of screen actors, Marlon Brando? Who can forget his tearful apologies to the Jews after he was made to return to CNN and retract an earlier statement? And this from a guy who snubbed Hollywood and the Oscars with more than a statement!

It is understandable that the American people are upset. Rational and humane people everywhere have similar feelings over the tragic loss of innocent lives. But a war is being planned out based on assumptions, suspicions, inferences, half-truths and previous incidents. If Bin Laden is indeed guilty, then hang him.

But before George Bush goes full out with his 'wanted-dead or alive' posters and compounds this tragedy with more innocent blood, let the full might of his investigate bodies dig out the real truth. Pinning the tail on the wrong donkey would be of great disservice to the American people, and to innocent people everywhere else. And once again, US foreign policy may find itself falling flat on its backside!


-Tariq A.Al-Maeena

[email protected]

maxalt
22nd Sep 2001, 23:57
Hugmonster I appreciate your views entirely. I know what you are getting at, but there is a fine line between 'understanding the motives for an action' and thereby actually condoning the action.

I've never had a problem with muslims per se, and I've worked in Islamic countries. But the events of the last week have thrown Islam into a different light for me. I can honestly say that I don't 'hate' muslims, but I have lost all respect for them and their religion.

It's not just because of the WTC attack that I feel that way, but also because of the public support and justification of the atrocity by muslim hard-liners, and even more so because of the equivocation of the so-called moderates who really should be forthright in their condemnation.

Goody offers to show us the addresses of websites that are more representative of 'moderate' muslim opinion than the Young muslim UK site. I wish he would...I for one really want to believe that his people are not filled with the conviction that mass murder is OK given the right reasons.
All belief in the protestations of the last week about muslim abhorrence of the WTC attacks were wiped out for me in the first five minutes of reading that website.

Goody says The Quran says: to kill any person, except for a moral cause is like killing the whole of mankind. This chap is wrong and right. Killing the innocent, whoever they may be is NOT allowed, but YES there are some deep issues here, which are always disguised by the media and ignored by the politicians.

Mr.Goody, can you define innocent? Because I have a feeling that your concept of innocence, in light of your islamic beliefs, is not the same as mine. I believe all the people in the WTC that day were innocent. Do you?

Finally, all the debate about who carried out the attacks, while very interesting and worthy of examination, is not the point now. The Americans have stated their suspicions. They have asked for Bin Laden to be handed over for trial. The Taliban have refused. On what grounds?

OBL is a known terrorist, and guilty of WTC or not, he should have been handed over right away, and without threats of 'jihads' to protect him from justice. Every pilot reading this should realise that this jihad means a threat against you personally, your aircraft, your passengers, and perhaps your loved ones. I know where my convictions lie when faced with this kind of choice.

I hope innocent people do not suffer as a result of the Talibans decision...but using your own logic Goody it wouldn't matter if they did, would it, because there is a deeper reason behind what is going to happen next. There are always reasons, aren't there.

The simple fact is that the Taliban should deliver him before it's too late for them and all the rest of us.

Conky Joe
23rd Sep 2001, 00:17
Thanks for printing that Mutt, I must have missed it in the Green Truth. I am extremely surprised at Mr Al Maeena actually very disappointed - he can usually be relied upon to NOT toe the party line. He does make some good points but these are completely negated by using information such as bitchy (and incorrect) comments about the black boxes, the 'no-shows' (sourced no doubt from one of those emails doing the rounds that is the product of someone with too much time and imagination) and the hotly-debated CNN tape - the BBC and every other news agency have footage of Palestinians jumping up and down over the years. That particular footage was actually provided by Reuters and they have assured CNN that it is authentic - Al Maeena has chosen not to do his research and prefers to incite anti-American feeling in a country that is already having trouble deciding where it's loyalties lie. Shame on him :mad:

lame
23rd Sep 2001, 00:52
Hugmonster,

Thank you, as usual on PPRuNe, people with nothing useful to say resort to personal attack???

I thoroughly read the post by G-OODY several times before responding, and then replied in a calm manner, without any personal insults, unlike you did.

I lost a lot of people that I knew in the WTC Murders, and I still cannot understand how any human beings could do this at all.

However he and others try to justify the action of these mass murderers by saying that they have reasons to hate Americans.

NOTHING could possibly justify their actions.

The sooner that the World is rid of these animals and all that support them, the better for humanity.........

:mad: :mad: :mad:

G-OODY
23rd Sep 2001, 01:34
Don’t patronise me with your “in light of your Islamic beliefs”.
Since it was religion which taught men how to be men, innocence is therefore a concept sent from the heavens and not one which was invented by man.

“Innocent parties are those who are not interested in causing any harm to one, one’s loved ones, one’s property and one’s integrity.”...and in light of my Islamic belief:

“God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.”60:8

“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth” 8:61

I believe all those in the WTC were innocent.

“They have asked for Bin Laden to be handed over for trial. The Taliban have refused. On what grounds?”

On what grounds?

Liken the bond between you and your best mate, I say your mate is guilty of a “particular” crime. Naturally you want proof although you may know your mate has a criminal history..

Mullah Mohammed Omar and OBL are the best of chums, and one knows the other is a terrorist. The difference here is they share the same cause. OBL = Taliban = terrorism. One does not exist without the other so yes the war against them is justified and may the best group, in the eyes of God, win.

“I hope innocent people do not suffer as a result of the Talibans decision...but using your own logic Goody it wouldn't matter if they did”

How dare you!!! It wasn’t my logic which allowed the Taliban to grow and become a fighting force in the first place. “Well these communists need a good beating, I know lets train those Afghan dogs up, they ought to do the job for us!” :mad:

This was the logic of your much loved American companions who have been playing with “innocent” lives since the turn of the century with there licenses to kill.

And neither was it my logic to place sanctions against the dying children of Iraq. My LOGIC would’ve made evident the fact that sanctions “do not” affect self-centred dictators like Mr Saddam Hussain, they affect “innocent” lives and I would’ve been able to judge that someone like Saddam really couldn’t give a damn about his people…that is my logic!

“…and those who sow the seeds of evil reap the consequences”.

Lame, don’t be a fool, in no way whatsoever have I justified these atrocities. I am trying to show you feelings from the other side and am trying to get the message in to your head that THERE CAUSE MAY JUST BE LEGITMATE. What are they simply trouble-makers? can you justify sanctions against Iraqi babies? Can you justify a gunship striking a Palestinian stone thrower? It hurts doesn’t it???? – just remember somebody somewhere is as mad as you, and it drove them to do THAT!

If you still think I am trying to justify mass murder, then I no longer wish to argue with you.

lame
23rd Sep 2001, 02:12
G-OODY,

You say I am a fool for thinking you are trying to justify their actions, then you follow that by saying THEIR CAUSE MAY BE LEGITIMATE ????????

Their cause cannot possibly be legitimate, only in VERY sick minds.

As George W Bush said there are only 2 options, you are with America, or with the terrorists.

I am 100% with America, no question....

Where do you stand G-OODY??

:confused:

G-OODY
23rd Sep 2001, 03:06
Sorry, wrong word and very careless of me. Their cause is not legitimate but is A REALITY.

We are neither with the real terrorist, the perceived terrorist, the greater terrorist, the lesser terrorist, the former terrorist, the existing terrorist. Both create mischief and both are responsible for innocent deaths. Both deserve each other and both deserve hell fire for the pains and lies they have fed the world and it’s peace loving people. We want a separate world, a world free from all politics and power hungry b*stards disguised as religious zealots. Think I’m crazy?

lame
23rd Sep 2001, 03:40
G-OODY,

What a difference one word makes?

I have NO problem with what you just said, but I DO with what you said previously (the wording).

No, I do NOT think you are crazy, but then I do NOT think I am a fool either :confused:

I too wish everyone could live in peace, but sadly do not think it is possible with these, or any other, terrorists around?

Best regards,

"lame"

:)

Velvet
23rd Sep 2001, 03:41
GOODY, their cause may be legitimate, their actions are not, nor are the justifiable.

No matter how just the cause, it loses all justice as soon as it employs unjust actions. No killing of innocent people can be legitimised and justified because someone has a grievance, it does not make it right, because they can point to previous killings. If we use that justification, the western response should be to kill more innocents.

GOODY, you cannot surely think that Bin Laden should be protected from his crimes, because he's best friends with a Group of criminals who are carrying out the most heinous of crimes against their own people - on the grounds that they practice 'Pure Islam'. They aren't keeping him because he's innocent, nor from any noble sentiments of honour and friendship and Islamic values - they don't have those. That is very evident from the way in which they treat the people they are supposed to be protecting, valuing and honouring. For it should be an honour to be a leader, not a power trip.

Would you not hand over your best mate if it meant that otherwise all your family would be killed or injured because you shielded him from justice. Would you not hand over your best mate if you were certain he had been carrying out criminal acts against your family in a different city, but hid in your home to cowardly avoid being caught. Would you not hand over your best mate if you knew he had already killed members of your family. Are not all muslims brothers - and has he not already killed many muslims in terrorists actions.

So religion taught men to be men did it - and religion taught men how to justify killing, and religion taught men how to make killing millions in the name of God a sacred duty. And religion taught men how to see others as inferior beings, thus they are not equals and can be harmed, humiliated, tortured and killed without guilt.

Unless all people condemn the wanton acts of killing - all - they will continue. Whilst people equivocate about the reasons, they will continue. No killing of innocents is right, whether it be of iraqi children by sanctions, Afghan widows thrown alive into graves or executed for minor offences, airline passengers sending loving messages knowing they were about to die, white farmers and black workers in Africa, my Kuwaiti friend raped and murdered by soldiers, Irish shot for being thought on the wrong side, Vietnamese peasants thought to be hiding the Vietcong, a palestinian boy being shielded by his father, a jewish child burned in the ovens; I could go on but to what purpose - none of these can be justified by anyone, no matter how much they try.


If he had struck against the American government or soldiers, as before, probably little would have changed; but these terrorists didn't go for 'LEGITIMATE' targets; they went for the easy and soft option - the coward's way. That's why there should be no hiding place for them, and that's why muslims who justify this in the name of Islam are wrong.

I could never get that mad about anything!!!!


Edited because I've just read your post GOODY - I don't think you are crazy, I do think you are a good man who just happens to also be a muslem, trying to make sense of the senseless. The trouble is that by definition these men are insane, for no sane person could contemplate the death of thousands and himself (by his own hand) with equanimity if he were sane. These are not desperate men, driven to extremism by poverty and hardship, they are wealthy, middle-class, educated and according to their families devout. Contrast their hate-filled actions with the loving and calm messages from their victims. What caused them to turn into mass-murderers, what twisted semblance of religious ideology justified their lies both to themselves and their families. As for Bin Laden, the Taleban and the terrorists, what good will it do if they gains the whole world for Islam, for they have lost their souls.

[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: Velvet ]

Slasher
23rd Sep 2001, 06:42
The whole reason of my first post on this thread was to get G-OODY out in the open, because he could at least answer some of our questions. That he has done, so I for one am not going to throw any sh!t at him. And btw I dont see too many other islamics willing to have the balls to say anything at all, so give him a bit of credit on that one huh?

Only questions I have for you G-OODY:

1. Would you agree Terrorism is hijacking Islam, similar in method to how communist partys once hijacked labor unions in the last century?

2. Will Islamics world-wide eventualy understand that it is a war against terrorism, not Islam? Or do they realise that already but are blinkered because of USA involvment?

3. Why arent the worlds Islamic countrys willing to colectively get together and work out a practical strategy to rid islamic terrorism, and impliment it? For example these "fatwas" seem to have a very powerful effect on your average muslim. Surely a colectively-agreed fatwa from high-ranking world islamic council clerics outlawing terrorism (punishable by stoning etc) would be a good start?

Thanks.

Squawk 8888
23rd Sep 2001, 07:11
I find it interesting that the usual suspects try to justify their hatred for the yanks by bringing up the plight of the Palestinians. Get real- the middle east is one of the richest regions of the world, and most of that wealth is controlled by muslims. I'll admit I know very little about Islam, but I do know that one of the pillars of that faith is to use one's wealth to help those who are less fortunate. Bearing that in mind, it begs the question: Why the f*** have the Palestinians been living in rag tents in the desert for 50 years!? Why haven't the oil sheiks been getting them a more permanent home, and why hasn't OBL applied any of his millions to that end?

mutt
23rd Sep 2001, 09:05
CJ

Welcome back, how was your summer?

Al-Maeena usually doesn’t toe the party line, but he hasn’t said anything which wasn’t said to my face in the last week.

I had a conversation with a really nice chap yesterday, I had to explain to him that the IRA are Irish Catholics, they don’t represent me, neither do I support their actions. But by not voicing my objections, I am tacitly giving them approval.......

It’s the same with Islam, people can quote the words until the cows come home, but the fact remains that if Islam wants to be accepted as a peaceful religion, it must lead by example. They must be the ones who are crying for the heads of OBL. They have got to accept that they cant state that their children have gone to fight the Chechnya with pride, and then turn their heads when those children somehow end up in NYC.

This fight isn’t about religion, it’s about terrorism, be that Irish, or be it Islamic.

So G-OODY et al, please don’t quote surats or even scriptures, just show us how you intend to fight this terrorism and stop it tarnishing the good name of your religion.

Mutt

G-OODY
23rd Sep 2001, 15:10
before I go...

1.) Terrorism is hijacking Islam only because media hype plays a significant role in allowing it to. These barbarians have chosen the word “Jihad” and translated it as “Holy war” when the meaning is far from it. What chance do we have of restoring the image of Islam if the media continues to churn out phrases such as “Islamic extremist”, “Islamic militant” and “Islamic fundamentalist”. Nobody speaks of Hitler, the “Catholic” mass murderer.

2.) For an important minority the US is an oppressor. So even if this particular war is to combat terrorism I doubt it very much they’ll see it that way. For them terrorism is justified because of what the US has done in the past, obviously I do not agree, since there is civilian loss on the other side too. They see it as a war against Islam because in the past there has been injustice and delay in matters relating to separate Muslim states. Nobody asked the Pali’s if they wanted to share their land!

3.) Terrorism and killing civilians is murder, it is already outlawed and is punishable by death, even according to the Quran. I agree with you, however these so-called Islamic leaders aren’t able to do much for their own people, what can they then do collectively...not much. Even if it was too happen, a loud mouthed mad mullah would not pay attention.

Squak 8888, very good point! This is why I mentioned previously, they are as bad as each other. Todays leaders, whether they be from the East or West do not have the qualities of a real leader. They lie, cheat, and often rob their own country.

Well, I hope I have been successful in bringing to light feelings from the other side. They must be looked in to. This is NOT "just an attack on our freedom" as Bush puts it, it is far more deep rooted than that. May God bestow peace on us all.

Thanks for listening. Bye.

Feeton Terrafirma
23rd Sep 2001, 18:11
I'm going to open my comments by stating that I am fundamentally not religious. If you really have to brand me in some way then Pagan is as close as it gets.

I see terrorism in Northern Ireland and I hear it refered to as Catholics and Prodestants fighting for their religion. I try to reconcile this with the Catholics and Prodestants I know but I fail misserably so I conclude that any claim that Northern Ireland is a religious fight is utter bullshit! They are fighting because their parents taught them that is was the "right" thing to do.

I hear and see public demostrations against the US and the media tell me that they are "fundamentalist Islamics". I also see the same media reporting the US president stating that this disgusting act was caused by "fundamentalist Islamics" and I try to reconcile this with the Muslims I know and I totally fail. I can only assume that they too are fed a story by their parents, which is distorted by time and memory into something it never was.


Why do people hide behind religion? Why do people need religion to begin with?

Velvet

No matter how just the cause, it loses all justice as soon as it employs unjust actions. No killing of innocent people can be legitimised and justified because someone has a grievance, it does not make it right, because they can point to previous killings. If we use that justification, the western response should be to kill more innocents

I'm very afraid that this is exactly what the US will do.

Feeton just wants peace, but the issues need to be resolved first.

Wizdum
23rd Sep 2001, 23:16
Squawk, the Palestinians have been living in squalor for fifty years because they were forcibly removed from their lands by Israel. If the U.S. are to be even handed in this "war on terrorism" then shouldn't they also depose the Israeli government?

Velvet
24th Sep 2001, 01:19
I think a lesson in history might not go amiss - why are the Israelis considered to have ousted Palestinians. Before the modern era starting around 1916 the Middle East (even that was not coined until 20thC), was ruled as part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire - from the middle ages.

After WW1, the British and the French ruled most of this between them, subsidising the mujahideen and Ibn Saud (from which the name Saudi derives), and his rebels in a revolt against the decadent Ottoman Empire, thus creating Saudi Arabia. They and Bin Laden are from the Wahhabis cult. An offshoot of Islam first proclaimed by a preacher in the 18thC in a region where Riyahd now stands. It is the official religion of Saudi and the Gulf states and is the equivalent of the most Puritanical Christianity. The Wahhabis have always been a murderous and intolerant sect - extremist and fanatical. It is a point to ponder that (reminiscent of Nazi Germany), all Hindus were required, in Kabul, to wear a piece of yellow cloth sewn to their coats.

Out of this melting pot many Arabic nations / countries were formed, including Jordan, Qatar and UAE and Saudi. Palestine no more existed as a political or national entity than did Israel, until the second half of the 20thC. Well, not for something like 2000 years (they were once known as Hebrews and Philistines I'm reliably told).

'Jordan' was handed to Sheik Abdallah and the Bedouin Hashemite tribe, as this was also formed out of 'Paletsinian' lands, should they also be asked to hand back land not belonging to them. Maybe all the middle east should be handed back to Turkey.

When the Ottoman Empire ruled at least they allowed tolerance to all religions across the region.

It is worth remembering that in 1919, the Feisal / Weismann Agreement, not only allowed but positively encouraged Jewish settlement. Perhaps the Palestinians should take up their grievance with the Arabs of Hedjaz, not the Jews of Israel.

His Royal Highness the Emir Feisal, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hedjaz, and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization, mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realizing that the surest means of working out the consummation of their natural aspirations is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine, and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following Articles:

The relevant article IV as follows:

All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.

In 1947 the UN put forward a solution for two-states within Jerusalem - it was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs.

Thereafter, though Palestinians may not remember, they were kept in refugee camps in Gaza and denied aid to highlight their plight by the Egyptians during the late 40s and 50s.

It is also worth remembering, that it is the Arabic nations who have enforced the pretence that Israel did not exist. In that to enter both Israel and any Arab state one needs two passports, or no stamp from Israel, otherwise you would be denied entry. Even a small six-pointed star earring was enough to ban the wife of one employee. The Israeli Boycott Office used to research companies for any tenuous link with Jews and arbitrarily ban import of their goods if one was found. These are not apocryphal stories, these and more have been experienced personally.

Maybe Arabs have more to answer for the tensions in the Middle East than America or the west.

Things are not always as they seem
!!!!!!!!!!

lumbalund
24th Sep 2001, 01:43
SLASHER ,the other islamics do have the balls, the reason they are not saying much is because the people on PPrune have taken on the role of JUDGE,JURY and EXCECUTIONER and no matter what they write or say will not change their openion on this issue.After reading all the posts on the issue of the WTC tragedy I have come to the conclusion that most of the people here share something with those cowards who killed so many innocent people .That is hatered for the sake of it,and branding a whole religion ,race and countrys for the acts of a few . :cool:

Bailed Out
24th Sep 2001, 03:39
Shame G-OODY isn’t still around to explain this one, It was quoted in a thread off the link MAXALT originally posted. Seems pretty clear to me………


“With regard to the punishment of Osama Bin Laden, the Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) said. "You shall stand by your Muslim brother, be he oppressor or oppressed.””

Or to put it another way, “If he’s one of ours, F*ck You”

Just about sums up the mindset doesn’t it?

If this really is Islamic teaching then do we really need to listen to all the liberal BS, lets not set ourselves up as soft targets again.

As much as some would like to hold out the hand of peace I worry that it may be cut off at the wrist.

Velvet
24th Sep 2001, 04:30
Gather you don't like people having different opinions to yours then lumbaland.

I will say that GOODY has earned every bit of respect and deservedly so. If muslims don't have the courage to post on an anonymous board then they are by their silence giving succour to the belief that Islam is not a religion of peace. People like GOODY, and millions of other muslims are not responsible for this action, but terrorists claiming to act in the name of Islam are - and they are rightly condemned.

There is an old but true saying 'Evil abounds because good men do nothing'. We have allowed terrorism to flourish because we thought in our naivety that it would be open to reason and our leaders in their blind belief that if you gave in to their demands they would then become less threatening. We now know different at a terrible cost.

You are right Lumberland only in one thing - that I responded without thought to a post which showed as much hate as that which you object to.

My only excuse is that it was late and I find your sort of reaction extremely unpleasant, and yes, I did read it. You have attacked people on here in ignorance of their circumstances, knowledge or experience - you did it because you felt able to from a position of anonymity.

Most people on here don't hate muslims, they hate the Islam that spawned these evil men (not Islam as a whole) - they hate the regimes that defend and protect them so that they can then strike out against innocents. Are you going to defend or deny the celebration of muslims that so many innocents were killed. Are you going to defend or deny the hate-filled chants of the Islamic clerics in the London streets, or the burning of western-leader's effigies in Pakistan. Or that the Taleban, an Islamic regime has so decimated its people that they starve and die in the streets whilst their supposed leaders live in comfort and increase the suffering of millions to protect one man, who if not guilty in this instance is certainly guilty of other acts of terrorism.

You assumption that most people on here are guilty in part of the same mentality as the terrorists is contemptible, and it led to an unreasonable reaction which is probably what you intended.


So, on reflection I have edited, but you do not deserve the same respect as GOODY, for you seek to sow dissent instead of the harmony and understanding that he engenders.

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: Velvet ]

Slasher
24th Sep 2001, 06:45
Thank you G-OODY for taking the time to reply to my questions. I respect you for having the back-bone to post in, wether I personaly like islam or not.

lumbalund
24th Sep 2001, 13:54
Velvet,maybe you did not read my post correctly or even if you did it did not get through to you what I ment to say.you have just proven my point and if my posts are not worth replying to then please dont. :cool:

Superpilot
24th Sep 2001, 14:44
Bailed Out, could you please provide me with the link to that. I'd like to ask him where he found that statement. Thanks.

We're flooding in now aren't we!

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]

Bailed Out
24th Sep 2001, 17:55
Superpilot,
http://forum.ymuk.net/showthread.php?threadid=1515


Second post.

Regards….

flapsforty
24th Sep 2001, 18:39
G-OODY once again you provide us with insights in a world and a way of thinking which many of us, myself included, should (and want) to know more about.

Only through better understanding can we become more tolerant of eachother.

I agree with Slash, gutsy of you to come in here and explain about what you believe in, especially at a time when it can't be easy to be a muslim.
Thank you.

HugMonster
24th Sep 2001, 18:46
I see the full quote is:- With regard to the punishment of Osama Bin Laden, the Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) said. "You shall stand by your Muslim brother, be he oppressor or oppressed." The people asked "How shall we stand by him, if he be oppressor?" The Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) replied "With guidance and good council."I see nothing there about fighting with him against his enemies...

What is the problem with this "mindset"?

Superpilot
24th Sep 2001, 19:04
I’ve searched the net and the books at home but cannot find this particular saying of the Prophet anywhere. This is the best match I could find:

Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." Sahih Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 43, Number 624.

This guy appears to have used the expression "With guidance and good council." – Thus in light of my research I have taken that to mean: if a fellow Muslim is an oppressor of a group of people we must help him in the remedial sense to not oppress anymore (like counselling a mentally ill person).

Remember the sects of Islam are mainly due to indifferences in accepting certain Hadiths (sayings of the prophet). I like to keep away from them altogether.

Sorry if this was off the topic.
:)

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]

lumbalund
24th Sep 2001, 22:18
Maybe my post was a bit harsh and for that Im sorry,all I wanted to do was to say that there are muslims around the world who do not support the taliban and their understanding of Islam and as such should not be put under the same banner :cool:

mutt
24th Sep 2001, 23:34
lumbalund

Can you name them? Because at the moment judging from the discussions which I have had this week, I would put them ALL in the same boat!

I am still waiting patiently for an Islamic country to declare a FATWA against OBL!


Mutt

Wee Weasley Welshman
24th Sep 2001, 23:51
Now don't get me wrong - I'm a fully paid up child of Thatcher right wing Tory Boy hang 'em flog 'em then tell 'em to get on their bikes and get off the dole to pay for the funeral BUT.

Its a touch unfair that these people get called either Islamic Terrorists or Muslim Terrorists when the IRA are never called Catholic Terrorists or the UVF Christian Extremeists etc.

Does anyone actually believe that religious belief is driving these people? Nah, its money, jealousy and a nice little earner for those involved.

The issues of history or religion are merely devices by which to gain passivity amongst enough of the populace that they activists can gain shelter and infrastructure.

At least there might be some good come out of this outrage - the rattling of NORAID tins in NY is going to be a dodgy hobby for the forseeable future.

Can't see PIRA or CIRA planning another Omagh or Canary Wharf somehow...


WWW

lumbalund
25th Sep 2001, 00:51
Mutt,If you look at the Talibans version of islam and the other islamic states you will see some disparitys.1.islam has equal rights for women while the Taliban dont.2 To be a real beliver of islam you have to also belive in MOSES and JESUS and the faiths they gave to this world .The jews and the christians are called (AHELE-KITAB),basically the belivers in the book of GOD and as there is only one GOD we all belive & pray to the same GOD in our different but same ways.The taliban reject this.They also reject any Muslim who does not conform to their belifes ,hence you get people who walk into mosques in my country while the faithful are saying their prayers and open fire at them with AK47s,or kill a shiat clergyman while he is taking his two sons aged 7 and10 to school killing all three on the spot.There are many more events I could mention relating to the atrocities these so called muslims committ against fellow muslims but this is not the place for them ,this is the reason why I object to being put in the same boat as these murderers.I hope I have answered your question. :cool:

mutt
25th Sep 2001, 02:54
WWW

Firstly I would like to offer my sincere condolences for your friend who was in the WTC, my thoughts and prayers go with you.

As for your message, I certainly do not intend to condone the actions of the IRA, but they have never played the religion card to the same extent as what we have seen in the Islamic world. I have never heard of the Noraid calling for Italian Roman Catholic Aid, nor have I heard of any IRA terrorist who has willing died in a suicide attack with a view to going to a better place in heaven. To compare the two is like chalk and cheese.

lumbalund
Thank you for you frank and open answers.

As for your point 1, I have severe problems with what Islam considers to be “Equal Rights For Women”. I most certainly have never seen this and would ask the question “Is a women allowed to be a witness in an Islamic court?”.

Your 2nd point is against the Taliban’s interpretation of Islam, unfortunately, I don’t know anything about their interpretation, I am only willing to comment on what is before me.

Can I be so crude as to compare your Sunni Vs Shi’Ite battles within Islam as the same as the Catholics Vs Protestants within Christianity? Are these actually in the name of religion, or territorial battles?

I probably have more questions than answers, but I guess that comes from living in a place where the mosque is the guaranteed source of information ;(

Mutt

Wee Weasley Welshman
25th Sep 2001, 03:02
Mutt - thanks for remembering my WTC loss - I am dealing with it a private and dignified manner but your rememberance is touching.

Sorry but as I see it a terrorist is a terrorist. Be they planting a bomb in a car, flying a plane into a building or strapping a bomb to your waist.

Its time the people of the world stood up to the actions and not the excuses of terrorists.

With every inch of violence we can muster.

WWW

Bailed Out
25th Sep 2001, 03:11
HugMonster, Superpilot, So it’s all down to interpretation? I don’t see many a mullah voicing the tame version or am I looking in the wrong places.

Religion or jealousy, I still maintain there are millions of Muslims who are of the opinion that Islam must prevail under any circumstance. Most moderates will stand by and watch whilst their brethren go forth and do as they please, or else how do you explain the riots in Pakistan.

I’ve read that all the manipulation occurring is by the Americans for their own ends, it now appears that we're all capable of reading our own ends into any situation.

I’ve seen both sides and I’d sooner live under an American system rather than the alternatives.

You don’t find many liberal views in the middle of a battlefront and it looks like that’s where it’s going, like it or not.

maxalt
25th Sep 2001, 03:55
Women equal in the eyes of Islam? Then why is there such a debate going on at the 'Young Muslim UK' site about why women are more likely to go to hell than men? The popular idea seems to be that females are of lower moral and intellectual strength than men and are bound to damnation. So much for equality of the sexes in the eyes of Islam (what a preposterous notion that is...female equality under islam...puhleeese!)

And I'm getting a bit tired of this rap about the IRA being called Catholic terrorists.
Long before the WTC attack I tried to explain on this forum that the issue in N.Ireland is not religion. How many times do you have to hear it folks? I know it's easier for you to grasp when you just think "Prods v Taigs" but that's bullshit of the purest ray serene! If anything the recent events should have finally opened your eyes tothe difference between islamic terrorism and the terrorism in N.I.

Allow me to compare and contrast.

The mullahs and the ayatollahs declare jihads and fatwas demanding all good mussies kill the enemies of islam (a religion). That includes all Americans, men women and children. This is my definition of a religious war.

The Catholic church does not demand the IRA commit murder in its name. In fact the Catholic church condemns their acts.
The Protestant church does not demand the UVF commit murder in its name. In fact the Protestant church condemns their acts.
The IRA do not state their cause to be the murder of all non Catholics. Their cause is a united Ireland.
The UVF do not state their cause to be the murder of all non Protestants. Their cause is the retention of the union.

This is not my definition of a religious war.

The terrorism in NI is diabolic and I roundly condemn it. But it is not religious in nature or origin. There may be plenty of sectarian hatred, but to compare the motivations to those of Ayatollah Kohmeni or Ossama Bin Laden is just lazy and actually worrying in it's ignorance of the nature of these recent events.

I hope Dubya understands the situation better than some people on this BB. Or else we're screwed.

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]

HugMonster
25th Sep 2001, 05:07
No Bailed, in my view it is NOT merely down to interpretation.

When your quote lacks the second part, the meaning is totally changed.

This is the old trick of book or play reviews. Leave out one or two words, and there you have it - a good review instead of a bad one!

For example - in London once, I saw a billboard for a stage show which featured Richard Briers and Paul Eddington. The billboard said "Richard Briers and Paul Eddington ... two fine actors (Evening Standard)". I had actually read the original article, and what it in fact said was "I cannot for the life of me understand what Richard Briers and Paul Eddington, two fine actors, are doing in such a dire production as this."

So, which are you going to accept - the snippet that cuts out all the context, or the whole thing?

All down to interpretation, I guess... ;)

Stage3
25th Sep 2001, 05:13
Maxalt:

Who says the Young Muslims speak for Islam?Does a small group of religious leaders in a messed up country declaring jihad mean there is a holy war going on? Did David Koresh set himself and all his followers alight for Christianity?

Perhaps Ian Paisley represents the Church of England.

Get a grip. :rolleyes:

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: shutupgringo ]

Bailed Out
25th Sep 2001, 05:29
HugMonster, To reiterate and expand on my last post and to include the bit you feel is relevant

." The people asked "How shall we stand by him, if he be oppressor?" The Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) replied "With guidance and good council.""

So where is the “guidance and good council”? your good self being the exception of course.

Bailed Out
25th Sep 2001, 05:46
Shutupgrindo,

“Who says the Young Muslims speak for Islam? Does a small group of religious leaders in a messed up country declaring jihad mean there is a holy war going on? “

Right on bro…

"Young" Muslims don’t count eh?

Oh, and "a small group of religious(!?!) leaders in a messed up country?" Well no tears if it gets obliterated then.

“declaring jihad mean there is a holy war going on? “ No way, they’ll go round murdering with or without Jihad, they’ve already done it you see.


BTW, thinking of changing my Pprune name to f*uckoffwop, what do you think?
:mad:

HugMonster
25th Sep 2001, 05:54
Bailed, I'm not sure I know what you are failing to understand about this quote.

You originally used it as an example of Muslim "mindset" in that, as originally quoted, it appeared to most people to be saying "Support and fight for other Muslims whether they're in the right or the wrong". In its entirety, it actually says (as I read it) "If your Muslim brother is the oppressor, you should help him see reason".

Does anyone else see it the same / different from that?

As for the meaning of "guidance and good counsel", I don't think anyone would understant that to mean "Go into battle beside him", nor even "Suggest ways to him he can win the battle whilst you stand back guiding and counselling him".

PS The name "shutupgringo" is, I assume, a reference to a CFIT incident in Brazil some years ago, I think a VARIG 727. The crew were (allegedly) listening to the commentary of a football match, and when the GPWS warning went off, their (CVR recorded) response was the above words as they switched it off. I hope this helps.

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]

lumbalund
25th Sep 2001, 13:55
MUTT.Women do have the right to bearwitness in a court of law ,where I live women run succesful businesses are journalists ,bankers ,schoolteachers and pretty much involved in every walk of life.We have had a Women as the head of state and if you are following the news,our Ambassador to the U.S.A at this time is a woman.We even have women flying for our national carrier, no discrimination as far as I can see. :cool:

flapsforty
25th Sep 2001, 14:27
Lumbalund, no doubt valid for your country ( and good for it's women) but at the same time very invalid for a number of other countries I have visited while working.

As you well know, there are countries which, claiming it's Sharia, prohibit women from voting, from driving, from going oustside if not covered from head to toe, from giving evidence in a court of law etc etc.
Yes Lumba, discrimination by the very state organs that are supposed tp protect the human rights of ALL it's citizens!!

Lumba, we all know it, many of us have been to those countries, talked to the women, lived there even.

So let's not diminish this useful and potentially beneficial debate by being dense, shall we?

PS and before you or anybody else thinks that I dislike the Arab world, I do not. Fond memories of crab fishing in Karachi, trekking through the mountains in Jemen, the wonderful people of Oman, the way the waning light dances over the rooftops of Jeddah when the plaintive last prayer call of the day sounds. The foods of Lebanon and the breathtaking nightskies in the Kuwaiti desert...................

New Bloke
25th Sep 2001, 15:50
I have tried to stay out of this as being a self confessed “cappuccino sucking liberal” I find my thoughts quite disturbing. Initially I felt the horror and the need for vengeance, retaliation call it what you will as did most of us. I then asked where the three minutes silence was for the dead of Rwanda, but I stood silently with all the rest. Then seeing how some Muslims reacted to this outrage I swung back into my fire and brimstone mood. I still want action taken to prevent it happening again but what action.

If this were a holy war there would be no doubt about the next action, the destruction of Mecca would be the logical course, or perhaps Medina first and leave Mecca as a threat if this happens again. But this is not a holy War. It is not even a war, it is one terrorist act. One huge terrorist act but none-the-less one terrorist act. But we want a war don’t we? The people who organised this and implemented this one terrorist act did not do so in isolation, they did so with the connivance and assistance (implicit or explicit) of a larger body and possibly a Government.

If we are to believe the US government that body was the Talliban. Now if this is a fact we can turn this into a war. If this is true the way forward is to destroy the Talliban, destroy OBL, but not to leave a vacuum. Once this destruction has occurred, the people of Afghanistan should be delivered from the evil that has been done to them. They must be fed, clothed and shown that the West isn’t their enemy but their friend. And they should be encouraged to elect a leadership that will not oppress them, and the US must respect that choice, be it communist or even fascist.

Of course to fully legitimise this in the eyes of the Muslims, the force doing the destroying should be Islamic. So perhaps the U.S. should search around for a Muslim General to head this task force, the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Egyptians and other Muslim nations should all be part of it, but somehow I can’t see it.

I only know that in some part of the world people hate me enough to kill me without thinking twice about it. My Kids are “Legitimate targets” and my way of life abhorrent to them, and I don’t even know what I said to offend them.

Bailed Out
25th Sep 2001, 16:24
HugMonster, Thanks for the headsup

Shutupgringo, My sincerest apologies.

Perhaps I should change my Pprune name to “lobotomyvictim” :rolleyes:

Bailed.

Superpilot
25th Sep 2001, 17:54
Sorry peeps if you read the book which is supposed to be quote: “A perfect guidance for the whole of mankind, of which nothing has been left out” (Muslims included) and then compare this with the practices within countries like Saudi and Afghanistan you will find a lot of what they have as part of shariah has been doctored throughout the ages and is nowhere to be found within the Quran or even the Hadiths (the list is endless but I'll refrain from boring you). You may say the religion is made up of the people and their own practices. I would oppose that strongly and say the religion is as per the message (The Quran). It’s a fact early Islam revolutionised the role of the women but I have to agree today’s self-styled Islamic countries are far from demonstrating that.
;)

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]

Blacksheep
26th Sep 2001, 10:13
As one answer to the original question asked, in this Muslim country where I'm living, government "Special Branch" Police just raided one of our workshops on the airport, questioned everyone, searched all lockers and personal bags and carried away the section's computers for deep search of the hard drives. All because someone had put up a poster in the crewroom of a certain Saudi dissident with a ragged beard and turban who is thought to be lurking in Afghanistan.

As soon as news of the attack was received the Foreign Minister went to the US Embassy to express his shock and condolences to the victims' families.

From this and other evidence, it seems possible that the Sultanate is horrified by the WTC/Pentagon slaughter and that they support the USA.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema