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737child
18th Mar 2004, 02:22
Anybody have any updates on what is happening with the criminal record checks and how many pilots are likely to be affected by them ?

toon
18th Mar 2004, 06:13
just another excuse for yet another government department and more tax to pay for it, complete waste of time and money.

KBaB
18th Mar 2004, 08:12
I had to have a check for my job (social services), it took 11 weeks to arrive meaning i was out of work for this long (un-paid).

The people who do the checks couldnt tell an ape from an elbow. I ended up phoning everyday at the end and getting nasty with them, only then did my check arrive. The whole system is shocking, and the sad thing is that i doubt it even highlights the criminals! While i see the point of doing CRB checks on staff (all staff in any job) i just hope they sort out the system before putting a mass of people through it.


KBaB

Arkroyal
18th Mar 2004, 10:15
Indeed, toon.

Hands up anyone who believes that Brown is really intent on slimming down the taxpayer funded army of civil servants.

KBab, that's a dreadful story. I'll soon be without a pass to go airside, and hope no-one tries to leave me unpaid!

Utter, utter abrogation of common sense, total waste of my time and money:yuk:

speedbird_heavy
18th Mar 2004, 10:41
I have my certificate just to remind me that I'm not a criminal

2 six 4
18th Mar 2004, 10:50
What world are you guys living in ? Having a criminal record check is just one sensible piece of security in a world where we need lots of it right now.

Bad mouthing the people who do it is hardly going to improve things. Do you really think they want to be months behind in doing vital work ? That "army" of civil servants work bl%%dy hard for very little just to hear ignorant abuse every day.

737child
18th Mar 2004, 10:53
2 six 4


Of course we should have checks - but these should sensible checks ! - where has the common sense element gone ?

Devils Advocate
18th Mar 2004, 16:50
The most laughable bit is that these checks only apply to convictions which can be traced against you within the UK and / or subject to the UK Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.

Thus anything that one might have done beyond our shores is of no consequence, e.g.

I could be a paid up member of the IRA / ETA / AlQeda / etc
I could be wanted in, say, Bosnia or Sierra Leone, for gun running / rape / torture / extortion / murder / genocide
I could be the ring leader of a people & drug smuggling organization in Far East
I could be living off immoral earnings from a string of child prostitutes in India
Heck, I could even be a piano player in an Aberdeen whorehouse

....... and Disclosure Scotland would know diddlysquat about any of it !

groundhugger
18th Mar 2004, 19:08
Well I dont know bout social workers but at the airport I work at no one was unable to work while they were waiting on the Disclosure being completed as if we were the companys would have had to pay as it was never a stipulation of employment before last year.
As for working abroad for Al Qaeda/eta/ira and being untraceable I think this is classified as period where you are untraceable and as far as I know rejected by the authority you are applying to?
I know this has happened to several people who have been offered jobs at the airport who were then told they could not start as they had done the whole 6 months around the world bit!

As for common sense checks where would that get us with the majority of aircrews?
Still have to deal with jumped up bus drivers with no regard for security procedures on the ground which are there for theirs and their passengers safety!!!!!!!

unwiseowl
18th Mar 2004, 19:23
Did any of the 9/11 hijackers have a criminal record, or would Disclosure Scotland have given them the the OK?

Luke SkyToddler
18th Mar 2004, 20:32
Well the checks have had one unexpected side effect ... I have heard crew room gossip from a couple of sources recently, about a chap who was sacked from his airline employer a few weeks ago, after his disclosure certificate revealed a couple of prior convictions for assault that he had failed to mention at his interview 3 years previously :{

curmudgeon
18th Mar 2004, 21:52
Agreed with Devil's Advocate.

All mine does is say that I'm a man of no convictions!

Oh yes, and the initial application was sent back because I left a gap of two months in my address history. My address in this time was an hotel in Asia, in between two other houses in Asia.

I'm wondering (a) how they checked my addresses and (b) even if I had been done for crimes against humanity or worse, how would they ever find out?

Apart from the occasional case such as that mentioned by Luke Skytoddler, is it really worth the odd sized bit of paper its printed on?

cur

Devils Advocate
18th Mar 2004, 22:10
jace - the chapter and verse is here: Department for Transport - Criminal Records Checks (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_control/documents/contentservertemplate/dft_index.hcst?n=9420&l=1)

curmudgeon - Many thanks for agreeing - however, w.r.t.

'All mine does is say that I'm a man of no convictions!'

Should that perhaps more accurately be described as:

'All mine does is say that I'm a man of no convictions within the UK legal system !'

Imho this whole Disclosure Scotland thing is nothing more than a money making joke - one designed to net the goons at Disclosure Scotland 14 per application - wherein it has little or no real effect on improving airside security.

...... now just where did I put that SAM7 which my Afghan friends shipped to me in bits ? Ah, there it is, under my airside pass ! :rolleyes: <-- the emoticon for irony.

blondeboozer
18th Mar 2004, 22:44
anyone know if you can still get an airport ID with criminal record?

redsnail
18th Mar 2004, 23:16
The security check has at least one major flaw. Since you don't have to prove who you are to a member of the police etc, then all the disclosure can say is that the person with this name hasn't got any priors. The security check as done by the NSW (Australia) Police require you to turn up with your docs and get fingerprinted.
As far as I know, it doesn't search over seas either. (I could be wrong on this one)

IanH
18th Mar 2004, 23:18
It also seems that credit reference checks are being done as well in a lot of occupations .......... Kind of sensible I suppose, someone within the aviation industry with a lot of debt and offered a load of money for information, airside access, turning a blind eye etc etc.........

Wee Weasley Welshman
18th Mar 2004, 23:29
All pointless.

Next time it will be you at work in the flightdeck, a mobile phone picture message showing a terrorist with a Stanley Knife at the throats of your kids, and a voice telling you unless Canary Wharf goes down in the next hour then they do.

My advice? Don't start trying to think hard about security and terrorism. If you do you'll realise its all window dressing and emigrate.

Cheers

WWW

Luke SkyToddler
19th Mar 2004, 05:33
the whole thing's so stupid ... there are holes in it big enough to drive a bus through. There are plenty of pilots who have in fact spent periods during their youth, backpacking around Africa or surfing trips in Mexico or whatever for a few weeks ... there is of course no way you can prove where you were or what you were doing, but if you just put any old mate's name as a reference they certainly don't follow it up :eek:

Little Friend
19th Mar 2004, 09:52
737child,
check your PMs tx

Meeb
19th Mar 2004, 18:47
but if you just put any old mate's name as a reference they certainly don't follow it up

They certainly do!

Lets not all get mixed up here, DS is a criminal record check, nothing more, nothing less. Backpacking round Mongolia or wherever still has to be accounted for, but it has nothing to do with DS.

Some folks need to READ the rules before spouting off methinks.

IanH, calm down, you watch too much telly...

unwiseowl
19th Mar 2004, 19:03
Wee Weasley Welshman - If that happens, you may as well go to the police and hope for the best, because the terrorists will probably top your family anyway; either to cover their tracks or just for the hell of it!

Billy The Squid
20th Mar 2004, 03:05
anyone know if you can still get an airport ID with criminal record?

I managed to get one despite owning a Five Star LP....does that help???

toon
20th Mar 2004, 06:10
ground hugger !

don't be so b****y rude, you are on a pilots forum, 99.9% of whom are level headed normal tax payers who see their considerable contribution to this country's tax system wasted by politically correct fools and stupid government 'initiatives' that are mearly there to employ some more people who all get pensions etc funded by the private sector, ie. you and me !

Would i be correct in assuming that the staff at 'disclosure scotland' are all squeaky clean then ?
What a complete farce that we have this 'system' and i bet if you go to most of the catering companies around airports they have illegal immigrants working for a pittance. We in this country are a laughing stock, we have no idea who is in the country and just for good measure those that do claim 'asylum' (read economic migrant) get 20,000 ish, so i think the fact that i have a paper telling me i have no convictions is rubbish.

toon
20th Mar 2004, 07:46
:p

oh, and while we are on the subject of security, removing nail clippers etc just seen two blokes up big ben with all the climbing equipment !!!

tell me we didn't once rule half the world !!!

Nineiron
20th Mar 2004, 08:32
One of the disqualifying offences for holding an airside pass is"Having an article with a blade or point on school premises" Better declare the old school geometry set eh?

CAT3B
22nd Mar 2004, 10:18
Just had my Credit Card company on the phone, apparently DS have taken their 14 fee twice. (But I have not even got one certificate yet).

My companies advice is toapply at least 10 weeks before you
need the paperwork.

And you can apply online

Presumably direct from a cyber-cafe in Afganistan?

Its just another tax.

Bluejay
22nd Mar 2004, 10:51
OK now does this make any sense to anyone

Because my job involves possible contact with the Old and the very young I have to complete an Enhanced Check (I have no problem with this I understand why). This has been done and I have recevied my Certificate from DS saying all is well.

The bit I don't understand is that I now have to complete a BASIC check, why is this when all the information has been provided for the Enhanced Check???????? :confused:

steamchicken
22nd Mar 2004, 11:00
I had to do one of these for a job as a kitchen hand in an old folks' home! It took FOUR MONTHS! And came out clean! This was with the ordinary CRB, not these mysterious Scotsmen, but the principle holds. Expect serious trouble if you have had a lot of different addresses...

Devils Advocate
22nd Mar 2004, 11:04
.... and here's another stupid thing.

It's entirely possible to fail the Disclosure Scotland check and yet still get airside.

"Well how's that then ?" I hear you ask.

A). It's easy, all you need is a boarding pass !

FougaMagister
22nd Mar 2004, 12:29
Can't figure why the CRC takes up to three months in this age of IT. On the other side of the Channel, a CRC (called Extrait de Casier Judiciaire) done by the Justice Ministry is free of charge and takes... 14 to 20 days!

Just like the CAA, Disclosure Scotland are really quick at taking your money, much slower at doing their bit :*

Pollyana
22nd Mar 2004, 12:34
The CRB (which covers England and Wales) were supposed to do the checks, but they can't cope. The police said all along they wouldn't be able to cope with the volume when they took over the checks from the police forces, but the CRB (using the same computer company that caused the Passport Office fiasco) said "No problem, we can manage....." since then, more wrongly issued criminal record checks than ever before, more people having their fingerprints taken to prove innocence than ever before, and more hold ups in clearances than ever before.

So, enter Disclosure Scotland........ who said they'd do it quicker and cheaper........ :rolleyes: