Good CapeTown Flying schools ???

[gilesparnell]

Hi

Does anyone know of any really good 'quality' driven flying schools in Cape Town (or commutable surrounding area). I did my PPL at 43rd, am now back in the UK trying to get the cash together for my CPL before i head back to Cape Town to retie my bonds with the beautiful cape.

Ideally i would have liked to have done my cpl at 43rd, but my seond half isn't really going to be able to live a proper life - and further her career in Port Alfred.

Are there any good schools i can do my cpl at? If done in SA, will my license be usable in the rest of the world (Europe, Oz, States ?)

Cheers

[banner boy]

Delta 200 ( Aptley named after the Training area) has recently been bought out by NAC, who now runs 43 Airschool. Just a quick catch up.

Now you can do training at Cape Town with 43. I will look out the details for you. Alexander used to run Delta 200, sold out to NAC towards the end of last year. At least the other half can be in a real town. (Pardon me Port Alfred)

Now 43 has the training school for all med cat twins and airline training courses as well I believe. Give me shout if you need more info, I will try find out for you.

[gilesparnell]

Cheers mate. Thanks for your help.

I knew NAC had brought out 43rd.... so it's interesting to know they've brought out somewhere else in CT.

I presume the prices between both schools are now going to be around about the same? 43rd was quite a bit more expensive than other options when i was doing my course. I kinda want the reputation of 43rd, but without the price tag... Suppose i can't get the best of both worlds.

Cheers

[George Tower]

You might like to check out Good Hope Flying Club and Cape Aero Club both located at CT International.

www.ghfc.org.za

www.cac.co.za

On the other hand you might want to consider training in Port Elizabeth.....just as windy at CT but less busy and a search on these pages will reveal very complimentary views by all that have flown there.

[Skaz]

NAC owns 43 Air School. They moved their helicopter training operation down to Port Alfred.

They also bought two other flying schools in RSA, one in Virginia and the other in Cape Town.

At present they only do PPL training in Cape Town, as they are apparently limited with the instructor/s.

This gen straight from the horses mouth (sorry Stevie G:} )

[Gunship]

Have you given the beautiful town of George a thought ?

Cape Flying Services comes highly recommended :D

[gilesparnell]

Does the fair city(?) of George and it's lovely Cape Flying Services offer CPL courses?

Having lived in the eastern cape most of my life before travelling abroard ... i'm not quite sure how to sell George to my bird !

:confused:

Although having never stopped in george for more than some padkoes... who knows what could lurk beneath !
:ooh:

[birdlady]

Hi Guys


Giles - have you considered JHB for your training? The reason why I say JHB is for your bird. Better job prospects here. There is a very good flying school in Lanseria called Lanseria Flight Centre. The only problem is that it is VERY hard to convert a Sa CPL into say a JAA licence for Europe. Dont ask me about Australia but I know about JAA because I have just completed my JAA PPL here in JHB. Wait, before you say oooohhhh there's a JAA school here in good old SA - they have gone bust and done a runner with students money. Im sure you know the school and there reputation already though. Dont quote me on this but I know if you do want to convert a SA CPL into a JAA CPL you have to redo all the ATP exams and have enough hours to do the ATP prac. I don't know if you can do the JAA CPL exams as very few JAA pilots do the CPL they just go straight in to do the ATP - which seems crazy to me but hey. This is what I have been told anyways by said school above so I wouldn't take it as gospel. Any how I know its a serious B!thch. Am I making sense??????

I also want to ask you guys - what school in SA would you recommend for hour building before I return to Europe to do my JAA CPL.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[George Tower]

Giles,

You might like to try posting your question on www.avcom.co.za - a forum for SA pilots mainly GA orientated but you should get some decent feed back.

In relation to JAR conversion of an SA licence it is not as bigger problem as it was when the JAR was introduced. If one holds an ICAO CPL/IR then you need to do the following:

JAR Class 1 medical
ATPL/CPL subjects
15 hour IR course of which 10 can be in an approved sim
Training as deemed necessary by an FTO for the CPL
MCC course (not part of the licence but mandatory for the initial issue of a type rating for a multi-crew aeroplane.)

I'd say you could do all the above for about £10K easily. Oxford quote £3800 for an ICAO to JAR IR(ME) conversion. Compare that with the minimum 55 hour IR course that you would have to do if doing the JAR from scratch, Oxford quote £12,200 which you then have to add the cost of the CPL which is £4400.

The other benefit of already having a ICAO licence is that you will have demonstrated to yourself (and the SA CAA of course) your ability to fly to a high standard which should mean in theory at least the chances of a first time pass is higher. Given that a test costs £1200 x 2 for both CPL and IR, failing can be something you can't really afford to do.

Birdlady,

As for hour building - go wherever you feel happy. If you have contacts in JHB best you fly from there. It is probably best to try and see the whole of SA though. As you probably know the country is vast and has an array of different climates each with it's own set of challenges from a flying point of view. One example - very few people from the UK ever experience the density altitude you would find in Jo'burg, as well as the very big CBs that develop. In the Cape you learn to fly in wind - if you can't then you won't do much flying.

For what it's worth 43 in Port Alfred offer what they call "structured hour building" - personally believe that it is a waste of money. I can't see what it would achieve compared to just having a good relationship with an FI and periodic check rides.

NAC (the owners of 43) have recently acquired the Delta200 flying school at CT International. From my own experience D200 comes third behind Good Hope Flying Club and Cape Aero Club with regard to flying at CT international.

[birdlady]

Hi George,

You seem to know what you are talking about so I hope you dont mind if I pick your brains a little bit. See, the thing is I have been offered a grant that is going to cover 75% of my training and i never have to pay a single penny of that back. OHHHHHHHH YEEEAYYYYY!!! There are some catches though. I can do it anywhere in the world but sa and I have to be fininshed by my 24th bday which is in less than 10mths. I have just completed by jaa ppl here in sa and have started pricing hour building here. And beleive it or not, it is cheaper here than anywhere even without my grant. So I presume it would be the same for the sa cpl. If i did my JAA ATP through bristol distance, did my CPL here in SA with my multi IR, do you know what I would have to do to convert my sa cpl/multi IR into a JAA CPL/multi IR. If you could point me in the right direction it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[172-Captain]

Birdlady

Give Good Hope flying club a call in Cape Town. +27 21 934 0258.

They are a flying club more than a flight school. Their aircraft are very well maintained (best I have seen for a flight school) and they often encourage away flights. I suggest doing at least one serious cross country (FACT - JHB - Botswana return). They may however require you to do a fair amount of training before you go away on such a flight. I did my comm training there with their CFI and she is very good. For Comm training purposes it may take a little long, it depends on you. Because it is a club and not a 'school' the comm is a little less structured so it relies on your own self discipline.

All in all I think where ever you go for your final training, what you put in is what you get out. (Personally I am also very weary of some of the 'big' flight schools , 43rd excepted, don't throw all your cash at them, pay as you go).

Any more info PM me email ([email protected])

Regards

MB

[George Tower]

Hi Birdlady

I'm interested to know how you managed to have got your training paid for but anyway that's another story.

When the JAR's were first introduced in 1999 (I think??) they didn't really allow much training overseas to be credited, since then they have been revised somewhat in 2002.

All the information on this is available from the CAA in the UK and is published in the LASORS. I have just tried to visit their site to give you the exact link but it appears not to be there any more (instead they are selling them).

If you send me a priavte message with an email I will email them to you as a large pdf.

Oxford and Bristol would be able to tell you what you need to do step by step in respect of converting an ICAO CPL/IR to a JAR licence. To do everything in 10 months I think you are going to be challenged but it is not impossible but it will mean you having no outside distractions in your life.

The main points to convert ICAO CPL/IR to JAR are:

1) Pass all relevent exams having undertaken an approved residential or distance learning course (Oxford and Bristol run these)

2) Satisfy an FTO that you are competant to take your CPL skills test - no minimum number of hours training are required. Obviously if your rusty you will need some training.

3) The minimum number of hours for the IR (when copnverting from ICAO) is 15 hours - 10 of which can be in an approved simulator.

4) Although not part of the licence most employers will require you to hold undertake a MCC - prices vary from about £2k for a basic multi crew course in a kingair to about £4500 when done in a fancy jet with EFIS etc. Pro's and cons debated endlessly on wannabee forum.

[Jelly Doughnut]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF

Hi birdlady
above link to Lasors should work.
good luck
:ok:

[Goldfish Jack]

As a goldfish operator, I sit back and watch many of these postings with great amusement.

People want to know bout good schools, quality of toilet, etc etc and I just laugh. Surely more relevant questions should be asked, ie:
a. Quality of service provided
b. Amount of time spent in the air vs time on the ground iro QUALITY and QUANTITY of instruction
c. Avaialability of (training) airspace near airport and time spent (wasted) flying to and from that area before training begins
d. Availability of (IFR) slots for training
e. Availability of time iro IFR letdowns and does one have to wait for long times before one can do IFR training
f. Suitability of alternatr airfields when one wants to do night flying and what happens if one has to divert to these airfields.

These are some of the questions students should be asking. But no, they seem more interested in where to park you car, whether your hair is cut, whether you will get avgas on your (new ) shirt that (daddy bought you).

It is a given fact that there has been a dramatic increase in the number of scheduled flights and IFR charter ops in and out of FACT. The more these increase, so the pressure comes on aircraft to be compatible with these aircraft, iro operating performance and speeds, etc. Alternatively one can expect (short) delays whilst we adjust the traffic pattern to handle the IFR aircraft. (One must remember that the priority of IFR movs is much higher than either IF or VF training)

Slots are also becoming a premium at Cape Town during certain hours. We as controllers certainly try our best to accomodate everyone, but it comes down to the bare facts - how do you accomodate a C150 wanting to do an ILS with a 25kt wind, when you are handling 30-40 IFR movs per hour on the same runway and most of these aircraft are jets and high performance turboprops doing 120-180kts at 4nm from touchdown? How many pilots know the wake vortex spacing requirements iro departing aircraft - eg a light aircraft departing (from an intersection) behind a medium aircraft that departs from the full length requires a 3 minute departure interval not 2 minutes?

Common sense will determine that it will not be easy to do this. In addition with the limited amounf of airfields around FACT suitable for IFR training, it gets a bit hectic. So surely one should look elsewhere to find where you can do your IFR training with other more suitable options around you?

Furthermore, we often get complaints from light aircrft pilots that they had to sit for ages in the hangar area before they could get taxi instructions. Have any of these pilots EVER been to the tower and seen the problems the ground controller has to move aircraft on the apron to and from the runway and try to ensure they will be kept within their slots (with arrival slots coming in soon, this will be even more critical and place an even greater burden on the controllers to move aircraft). Then you have the problem of ACSA not being able to allocate bays correctly and aircraft being given bays that are occupied, etc etc, so it all adds up and then last thing you want is a student to put his C150 too close behind an B747 and it does happen - ask the pilot of ZSUYS a few years ago where he was BLOWN to!! So these things add up and put more negative factors in when it comes to flying in and out of Cape Town. And to add to it there is only 1 way of getting aircraft to and from the holds due to taxiway layouts.

One should be looking at getting max value for the money one spends iro QUALITY and QUANTITY of training (flying) time and can one get this at Cape Town? You will get it at Fisantekraal, as the airfield is right there next to the FAD200 flying training area and you can start your training the moment you are airborne. Can the same be said for Cape Town and the time it takes to and from the FAD200?

Please I am not chasing you away - I am thinking in hard economic terms and reality - when I get a service I want the best around for the best price and max output? Can this be said of the clubs at Cape Town? Maybe yes, maybe I am missing the point, but them maybe no as well. I would far rather spend a bit more time in my car and drive to Fisantekraal and have a full hours instruction not 40 mins per hour.

[birdlady]

Goldfish Jack

Is there a bee in your bonnet by any chance? Although having said that in a very sarcastic tone could not agree with you more. Just recently switched flying schools to a school here in JHB, Lanseria, and what a nightmare. 30 minutes just to get to the holding point and then another 10 waiting for clearence to take off. Then 30 minutes flight time just to get out to the training area. Not impressed just thinking of all the money I am spending (not all of us have daddy sponsering us) just farting around. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Goldfish Jack]

NO bee in my bonnet - my colleague has removed it already!! One just get a bit :mad: at some of the junk that gets written here by so-called experts and how some poor innocent people trying to get their licenses are ripped off by so-called experts who are in the game to rip others off.

Aaah the joys of trying to get a PPL!! Have you tried George airport.

Could not agree more with Gunsss. From what I have heard I can only concur and agree with him.

[Cardinal Puff]

Wonderboom at Pretoria is not a busy field and is about 4 minutes from the training area. It's a controlled field and is on the edge of the Special Rules Area so has the best of both worlds. Good restaurant, accomodation available on the airfield and close to town (15 minutes to Hatfield - Varsity party zone). Plenty of good schools here too - Blue Chip, Pretoria Flying School and a bunch of others. Flying time to Lanseria, Rand, Krugersdorp, Grand Central, Sun City (Pilanesberg), Witbank and numerous others between 15 and 50 minutes in a C172. Game farms in the area as well as other attractions that can be reached by air.

Best kept secret in SA up till now....:E

[43 Air School]

As an organisation that prides itself on providing a quality service to its clients, we are obviously disturbed by some of the recent comments made in this forum re. our Cape Town branch.

Though we have gone quite some way to upgrade the service provided by the school in Cape Town, and some problems clearly still have to be sorted out, there will always be room for further improvement, so balanced and constructive input is most welcome. Clients who are experiencing problems or have suggestions to make, please do contact Frans Meyer in Cape Town or myself in Port Alfred. This will enable us to deal with matters more effectively.

For the record, Mr. Crookson was invited by one of our Directors, Mr. Steve Goodrick, to discuss difficulties he said he was experiencing. He declined to do so, preferring, as has since transpired, to rather use this forum. Mr. Goodrick continues to endeavour to achieve the former and hopefully we can satisfactorily address his problems and establish a better service provider/client working relationship with him for the future.

Frik Schoombee
Marketing Manager : 43 Air School

PS: For more and accurate info on the location of other 43 Air School branches and on helicopter training please contact Steve Goodrick or Frik Schoombee

[Frogfoot]

Though we have gone quite some way to upgrade the service provided by the school in Cape Town, and some problems clearly still have to be sorted out

OK
Let us all know when you have fixed all problems with school, then we can recommend it to everyperson.

[Gunship]

A fantastic answer by Goldfish Bowl ;)

He mentioned the REAL important issues.

I fully agree with Cardinal Puff as well (we did our PPL's roughly the same time at the same school many moons ago (see my rant and rave post).

If I think what Goldfish Bowl was saying I would not look further than George / Wonderboom and of course Stellenbosch and 43 Air School.

No slagging but Stellenbosch 's prise was crazy .. no instructors available (they where writing exams at Maties) .. just no personal service ... (although lots of parking - a beautiful view .. and LOTS oohhh's and ahhhh 's from visitors on Sunday's when you start your might 150 in front of them ;)

Good luck mate - hope you find the CORRECT school for YOU !

And please give us feedback.

Cheers,

Gunnnsss

PS: Mr. Frik Schoombie - I incorrectly named you as 43 's CFI - sorry about that ;)

[Deanw]

Great to see that 43 AS have joined us to state their case.

Every story has three sides: Complainer, complainee and, somewhere in between, the truth :rolleyes:

Let's hope 43 sorts out the problems in CT soon.

[Stassiebal]

I did my training all over the place.... PPL at 43 at FAPA, then most hour building at Stellenbosch and some Simi training with them and then my Multi/IF at Cape Aero Club!

Did my Groundschool through Deal Alliance (Debbie Mann's Operation) at Cape Town, making use of Avex and FTC notes.

Quite diverse, but it's been great!

The waiting time did get a bit annoying at FACT every now and again, but generally if you picked the right times to go flying, it wasn't all that bad. Don't expect to do a Full procedural approach though, it might be difficult to squeeze you in between the big boys! Most of my IF training was done over RIV or West of GERAK and it seemed to work fine for me! Only ever had one problem and that was on the night I did my initial Multi/IF/Twin test. Got stuck in the hold at RIV for 45 minutes. Number 17 in sequence. Hideous.

The great thing about a place like Port Alfred or Port Eliza is that you get to go to more than 1 Instrument capable Airport. There is FAPE, FAEL,FAGG,FAPG! It makes it slightly more interesting than just being vectored onto the ILS. These Airports are all roughly within an hour and a half of each other with any half decent twin. So if you have 1 instructor between 2 students it works out okay. Fly there, do an approach, land, switch seats and then the other student takes you home! I know 43 does things in this way sometimes!

I haven't read many comments about APTRAC at FAPE on the forums yet, but a friend of mine went there to finish off his comm and he really enjoyed it!

Basically what I am trying to say is that IMHO, you should shop around for a school which suits you. I did, went to several different places. I got my Comm and I have no complaints!

Deán S.