Multi Engine Hour Building

[Desert Budgie]

Hi all,

I was wandering if anyone could help me with locating a good school, in Florida, Canada or anywhere else in North America for that matter that provides good, affordable multi time building.

I am looking to build 200-250 hours multi time and im trying to budget for 15000 US dollars max for the hours alone, but preferably with accomodation thrown in there too. Shared time building is also fine.

Im in Florida at the moment, but nobody ive spoke to here can help me. Also, ive researched some websites, however Id rather get some first hand, or any other good references from anyone who could give me a hand.

Any info is greatly appreciated.

Cheers
DB:ok:

[onehunga]

Have you checked out Air Desert Pacific in LA? They advertise in the UK magazines and seem to have quite cheap prices for multi. Have only rented single engine from them myself so can't comment on the multi side of things. Nothing that a call to them to find out the finer details wouldn't fix.

Enjoy.

[Gavin Sweet]

DB

I am going to ADP at the end of March to do around 100 hrs Multi. I have been there before to do some single engine hour building. Nice and friendly staff, aircraft are old but maintained well.

They have one seminole and plenty of Seneca's but do not hire out the Seneca's. I can let you know what the aircraft is like when I am out there.

Cheers.

[Keygrip]

DB - topic closed - as is the duplicate one in "Private Flying".

Tell me which ONE you would like to keep open.

By the way - $15,000 for 250 hours twin. $60 an hour, including fuel at approx $38 and accommodation. You serious?

[Keygrip]

Thanks for the 'P.M.'

(I am aware of the deal of which you speak - and of the fact that you posted at least three times, not two).

[Desert Budgie]

Sorry Key grip,

I didnt know i couldnt have the same post in different forums, just trying to get hold of different folk. Thanks for reopening the post in this forum. Just to let you know I posted it in:

Professional Flight Training
Private Flying
Canada
North America

Just to let u know if u need to shut the latter 3 down. Sorry about that and thanks again for fixing this one.

Cheers
DB :ok:

<<Canada, too??? You would have caught me with that one. :p :p . Seriously - enjoy the forums, we do actually want to help.>>

[Desert Budgie]

Thanks for the info so far guys. Just been looking at Ari-ben in Ft Pierce, FL. They are advertising just under $6000 for 100 shared hours. Any info on that place?

Gavin

Was that you advise against hiring the seneca's or they just dont hire them out? They're website says they hire them out at low rate for block time building.

Let us know how you get on. I sent them an email and will see what they say. Also, i heard on the private forum that a guy dry leased a multi in California and saved a bundle. could that have been there?

Cheers
DB:ok:

[onehunga]

There has been a lot of talk on earlier threads about how Ari Ben manage to charge such low rates. I just checked and the search function is up and running again so I suggest you have a read of previous threads. In summary though it is all about 2 guys flying together and if you are JAA then you will only get to log half the hours. Also the aircraft are flown 24/7 with preference during the day to flight training so expect to be shooting around Florida during the wee small hours.

Think you will find that the effective hourly rate is probably on a par with others that you will find but you will have the flexibility of being able to build your hours during daylight and take in some of the sights.

[FlyingForFun]

Just to clarify what Onehunga has said:

Aviator rent their twins out to two instrument-rated pilots at once. One is at the controls, under foggles, and logs P1. The other "logs" the time as safety pilot.

Under FARs, there is no problem with this - it's legal, and a very common practice. Under JARs, though, it's not allowed. Any time which you are not at the controls can not be counted towards any JAR license requirements.

Nothing wrong with them, though, as far as I know - it's just that you have to double their quoted price to get something that's comparable with anywhere else you're looking at.

FFF
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[henriksch]

If you dont min sharing time, look at http://www.aribenaviator.com/training/100multi.html?

[FlyingForFun]

Um - thanks for that, Henriksch.... but I think Desert Budgie probably knows about them, since he specifically named them 3 posts ago, and has had two replies specifically about them since then ;)

FFF
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[Gavin Sweet]

ADP don't like hiring out their Seneca's as they have had problems in the past with hirers. You will have to convince them that you have a lot of experience on the Seneca in order to rent one.

I haven't asked them about dry leasing the a/c but I know they will refund fuel you have uplifted at $2.00 per gallon.

Hope this is useful.

[Desert Budgie]

Thanks heaps guys. Keep it coming. Sharing is alright time for my FAA side, as for the JAA i was wandering if you can log more hours if you hold an MEI.

By the time I go to whatever time building school I choose, I will hold FAA CPL/ME/IR and MEI on the FAA side. If I am flying safety pilot as an MEI can I log the time as 'as flight instructor' and gain the full 200 hours for the JAA? I dont want to dig an even bigger whole into an already grey area, but if anyone could let me know anything that would be great.

Cheers
DB:ok:

[Jannik23]

Hi there


I was wondering about this quote

Under FARs, there is no problem with this - it's legal, and a very common practice. Under JARs, though, it's not allowed. Any time which you are not at the controls can not be counted towards any JAR license requirements.

Im gonna hourbuild when I finish my JAA IR and will do so in California (ADP) I will then get a FAA IR so I can rent the planes og build shared, BUT Im flying in a N-reg plane in USA airspace on a FAA license so whats wrong with logging shared hours in my JAA logbook, all I want is te total multi time build up, so what do you mean when you say it does not count towards a JAA license (I already have them, except the ATPL)?

Jannik

[FlyingForFun]

DB,If I am flying safety pilot as an MEI can I log the time as 'as flight instructor' and gain the full 200 hours for the JAA?You can only log the time as flight instructor if the "pilot" logs the time as PUT. It's perfectly legal if you can find someone who's happy to do that - but I can't see that too many people would be.

Jannik23,

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. When you apply for a JAA license, the JAA set the requirements for the experience you have to have. If that experience includes XXX hours, then these hours must all be loggable in accordance with JARs. Doesn't matter which country's aircraft/license/airspace you're using.

FFF
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[onehunga]

Jannick try the following:-

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118236&highlight=logging+time

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63612&highlight=logging+time

Couldn't see a link to Lasors or wherever the legal bits and bobs are but the search function is up and running so good luck.

[Jannik23]

Hmm you almost need a major degree to understand the rules here:p but what if I do 200 hrs shared multi, just to get the first job, ok CAA will only accept 100 but if you get your first job that will then build the hrs up to ATPL. Caus all I want is to get some multitime to get a job NOT a license, once I have a job then the hrs will come.
Is this acceptable?

Jannik

[FlyingForFun]

So what you're suggesting, Jannik23, is that you pay for 200 hours at a reduced rate (around half the normal rate). However, you only put 100 of those in your logbook. The rest of the 1500 hours for your ATPL will come from your first job. Have I understood you correctly?

If that's what you're thinking, then yes, that's legal.

For what it's worth, the advantages/disadvantages of doing this (IMHO):

The downside (maybe?) is that the marketing of the school that offers this is (un-intentionally) misleading you into thinking that you're getting a very good price, when you're actually getting a fairly normal price. Nothing really wrong with this - it's not deliberate, because what they're advertising is perfectly clear to someone who grew up with the FAA system. Once a JAA license holder understands this, it isn't a problem at all.

The upside is that you get to spend 100 hours watching someone else fly, learning both good and bad points from another pilot. Which I would guess outweighs any negatives.

Incidentally, if you do want to log your safety-pilot time, LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF) (Section A, Appendix B) tells you how to do it. Entry N on the table is for a "Pilot acting as Safety Pilot". The operating capacity is to be "SNY", and you can "Enter time in 'Any other flying' or spare column and annotate 'SNY'." You obviously don't add it to your totals, though.

FFF
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[Jannik23]

HI FFF


I actually wanted to log all 200 to get the first job what that might be and then go from there, knowing that CAA only will accept 100 out of the 200. Is this ok?


Jannik


and thank a lot FFF for quick replies

[onehunga]

If what I think you are saying is that for your logbook (ie: CAA purposes) then you log 100 hrs multi PIC time but on an application form for an employer you log 200 hrs? If that is right then surely when a UK operator (airline, charter, freight, etc etc) check your logbook to the application form they will see that you have only done half the hours than what you applied to them with. I can't see them being interested in the fact that you were a safety pilot, looking out the window, playing with the radios (maybe) or were even asleep! Hours are hours under the CAA/JAA rules.

If you were the sole manipulator of the controls and the commander then they are your hours.

[Jannik23]

Hi again


What about Eaglejet.net`s multi programs are they any good? lets say you pay 15.000$ for 500 hrs on the Navajo and CAA only accepts 250 hrs that still a VERY good deal is it not?


Jannik

[englishal]

A couple of points:-

First, will someone actually rent you a multi without an instructor if you have low ME time? The lowest I have found is 50 hrs multi, OR 25 dual with their MEI. I have only ever found one place which will do this, and I believe they have stopped it now. More typicay is 500 hrs TT, 100 ME, this is due to insurance requirements, so I would be interested if anyone has actually found somewhere with lower requirements.

Secondly, PUT doesn't exist in the US, so in theory there is no reason why a FAA MEI can't log "As flight instructor".

Thirdly, if you want all the "shared" hours as yours, why not link up with a US person, or someone building time for the FAA ratings. You fly, and as sole manipulator log all the hours. Charge the other pilot say a third the costs, they can also log all the hours as safety pilot towards their FAA ratings. Actually, all is not quite true. Only the time when the other pilot is nunder the hood can be logged as SP....sounds stupid, but when an examiner checks your logbook, and sees a flight as safety pilot (not that you are required to write in "as safety pilot") for the WHOLE DURATION of the flight, he knows that you've been incorrectly logging. Normally the start and end 0.3hrs is not loggable by SP (taxy etc)....

EA

PS Edited to say, if anyone wants a SP as in above example, I'd be up for it. Working towards my MEI, so RHS is good experience for me....(ME CPL/IR)