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maxalt
17th Sep 2001, 03:20
Just listened to a 'moderate muslim' on TV explaining that it is

The last wish of every muslim to die a martyrs death.

Is this true? Is there a muslim on the BB who could explain that concept...or refute it? Because if it's true then Islam...well I better not say any more! :mad:

HugMonster
17th Sep 2001, 06:01
He was right - it is so, for many true, believing Muslims. The snag is, that you need to be a true martyr. That does not, unfortunately, include dying whilst simultaneously murdering innocent men, women and children, in an act which does not further Islam, or promote the Word of The Prophet, or bring people to believe in Allah.

mutt
17th Sep 2001, 09:20
Huggie,

Are you really going to try to convince us that an Arab suicide car bomber, or an airplane hijacker who conducts the worlds largest terrorist atrocity, didn’t think that they were doing it in the name of God and would therefore receive direct passage to heaven where they would be justly rewarded as a true martyr?

Could you therefore enlighten us as to what drives this kind of person?

Mutt

PS, Maxalt, have someone explain the part about the Virgins!

golden_hands
17th Sep 2001, 12:59
It is a misuse of martyr-ship to say that they die for a "good" cause. They are told that to die in the holy war is going to get them martyr-ship

Those people are indoctrinated by a system that wants power. They misuse their religion for political power, see Iran, Afghanistan etc.

Understand that they are religionwise at the level of 1000 years ago the same as when christians had their holy wars, only now the muslims have more technology. :(

Token Bird
17th Sep 2001, 14:57
Mutt, don't blame HugMonster for merely stating a fact. Doesn't mean he knows what goes on in terrorists heads. Don't be so quick to jump on people just 'cos they're not jumping on the bandwagon of 'hating all Muslims' like a lot of you seem to be doing,

TB

PS. having now spent much of the morning on Jet Blast, I see that all lot of the anger had died down and sensible voices have started to pervade through the ether where there was mostly hatred and bigotry last week. Hence my bandwagon seems to have evaporated. Good news, as I would have been very distressed if the views being stated on this forum last week were a representative subset of those of the nation as a whole

[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]

HugMonster
17th Sep 2001, 17:10
Mutt, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I'm simply giving you what is the middle-of-the-road Muslim teaching. There is no need to jump up and down because someone tells you the facts. I'm sure you'd like to believe all the nonsense and lies about Islam that have been peddled in recent days (and years). It's much easier to go to war believing that your enemy is evil, with twisted propaganda fed you by your media and politicians in the breast pocket of your DPMs...

However, Islam, and Muslims as a whole are not the enemy here. Some twisted individuals (who happen to be Muslims) ARE.

Suicide bombers, hijackers, etc. etc. have been mislead by those with a political, wordly agenda that is simply about land and power, not about bringing people to Allah and to belief in Islam. Therefore such terrorists are not, in the view of most Muslims, martyrs for their faith.

Velvet
17th Sep 2001, 17:37
Huggy, Mutt probably knows more about Islam and Muslims than you can ever hope. He lives amongst them and has done so for some years, so have understanding for his view. Do not be so convinced that you understand the 'facts' of the Arabic mentality or Islamic teaching, accept he may know better than us how they view this action.

Mutt, you mean the virgins or houris, who would cater to every whim once the martyr gets to paradise.

In Islam a houri is one of the beautiful maidens who dwell in paradise and reward true believers with the sensual pleasure of their companionship after death. The houris are perennially young and pure, although they have the power to conceive and bear children at the will of the faithful.

And yes, they probably were indoctrinated in the belief that they would go to heaven and be pleasured by houris and have everything they could ever dream of granted to them for what they did as 'true martyrs'.

golden_hands
17th Sep 2001, 19:02
Mmmmm, now I know where the Dutch word "hoer" (hooker) is coming from! :o

HugMonster
17th Sep 2001, 21:03
Velvet, I don't particularly care where Mutt lives. I rarely care for people whose responses on here are as rude as his was.

Nor do I particularly care what the individual responses of some Muslims are to the events of a week ago.

I know personally a great number of Muslims. I have read the Quran (admittedly in English). As part of a comparative theology course (admittedly many years ago) I studied Islam in quite some detail.

All I have provided above is what mainstream Islam is taught. If that gets twisted and abused by some fundamentalists, then that is not the fault of Islam itself, or other Muslims.

Wherever Mutt lives, whatever Muslims he lives amongst, they will be a very different breed from elsewhere, like Christians. The Saudi Muslim is a different person from the Indonesian Muslim, from the Pakistani Muslim, from the Turkish Muslim. All are affected by the politics of their region, like Christians. All are susceptible to twisted teaching, like Christians.

The houris are irrelevant. The attractions of Paradise are, I assume, guaranteed. Otherwise there's not much point in aiming to go there. Whether or not you're going to get there is a rather more material affair than exactly how you'll get to enjoy yourself and enjoy your rewards once you get there. And, according to everything I've ever learned about Islam, not many genuine Muslims believe that these murderers are martyrs for their faith, and, having killed many Muslims in the WTC, are subject to:-

In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate

And whoso slays a believer, wilfully,
his recompense is Gehenna, therein
dwelling forever, and God will be wroth with him
and will curse him, and prepare for him
a mighty chastisement.
As for how the Quran sees other religions:-

In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate

Surely, they that believe, and those of Jewry,
and the Christians, and those Sabaeans,
whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works
righteousness - their wage awaits them with their Lord,
and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.
The Quran is even tolerant of other religions, of unbelievers:-
In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate

Say: "O unbelievers,
I serve not what you serve
and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.

To you your religion, and to me my religion!"

[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]

Velvet
17th Sep 2001, 22:01
Don't shoot the messenger Huggy my dear - not everything is as straightforward as we would like it to be. There are always reasons for people's reactions, even if we don't like them.

HugMonster
17th Sep 2001, 23:33
Vel, I'm not shooting anyone, except, perhaps, people who don't like the facts I quoted about orthodox Islamic teaching, and prefer to pour scorn.

As for people's reasons for acting as they do - well, if their reasons depart from what Islam teaches, then they forfeit the protection of their religion. Their problem, not mine.

If you have anything to argue against what I have stated above, please do so. You and I (and others) normally leave out attacking the poster, arguing instead with the posting. Let's keep it that way, and leave the personal stuff to people like Mutt.

RW-1
18th Sep 2001, 00:07
If someone came to me and stated that I could be atrue martyr in performing that kind of act, my first question would be:

"Whay are you not going, oh mighty leader?"

Of course, then you get some sort of excuse/answer ...

Se how the Taliban has now moved the decision to the Islamic council whether or not to hand over bin Laden, gee didn't they say for the past 6 days that they have no knowledge of his location?

Another ploy to keep bin Laden's own factions from attacking the ruling power, if the council acts to turn him over, they are in the clear.

Still, I feel for the "guy/gal on the street of Afganistan, the Taliban is just as bad as any terrorist organization, and on top of that they are now afraid of what we will do.

Make no mistake, people of Afganistan: I have no quarrel with you, and if/when we come, we are not coming for you.

All you have to do is not let those scum hide in front of you, which they will do.

All I can say is unlike them, we try not to cause collateral damage to your families, buildings, etc.

Velvet
18th Sep 2001, 02:37
Huggy, I wasn't attacking you, only your rather trenchant opinion. I never said that Mutt was Muslim, just that I know why he reacted as he did. I was hoping that you would understand and have compassion for someone in a very difficult and possibly hazardous position. Who’s to say you wouldn’t react in the same way if you were where he is.

I too have studied the Quran and Islam and lived in Middle Eastern countries for ten years. However, neither of us could even possibly understand the current Arabic thinking and view, just because we have Arabic or English muslim friends. It would be like expecting an Islamic Scholar who has only read the Bible in Arabic and knows a few British people to comprehend the difference between you and guyincognito. Or understand why two different factions of Christianity are at each other's throats across the Irish Sea.


As for the houris, I was just explaining the reference.

HugMonster
18th Sep 2001, 19:28
Velvet, this is leading us nowhere.

To recap. People were asked whether Muslims really wanted martyrdom. I said that it was true, but, according to mainstream Islam, these suicide bombers etc. would not achieve it.

Mutt then totally misread my post, and asked what on earth was going through their heads. My anser is that they probably think they will go straight to heaven as martyrs, but that they have been mislead (according to traditional, mainstream Islam) by their twisted leaders manipulating the Quran and manipulating them for their own worldly ends.

I objected to the way Mutt put his question.

I then quoted several passages from the Quran to illustrate how people's perceptions (as shown on this board) of Islam might be mistaken.

If Mutt has anything to argue with against any of the above, he is welcome to do so.

ANGELONE
19th Sep 2001, 13:55
I would ask a few questions of those defenders of Islam - why, if it is such a religion of tolerance and peace are so many of its followers men of violence, death and intolerant of others.

Why are so many of its followers capable of such evil, what spawns that desire of so many who are prepared not only to die for their faith, but murder as many innocents - men, women and children as they can.

Which Islamic country allows the same freedoms, demoracy and tolerance of other religions as the western ones. Which Islamic country would allow a group of its citizens or foreign nationals to chant death slogans to muslims. Or, build churches, and let the vicars and priests thunder out anti-Islamic rhetoric openly without fear of arrest, imprisonment and death.

All this is allowed in America and Britain - until this happens in Islamic countries, I'm afraid that neither Islam nor the Koran can claim to be a peaceful and tolerant faith.

You can quote the Koran in its entirety and it will mean nothing, unless Islam takes responsibility for what is done in its name.

tony draper
19th Sep 2001, 14:16
Islam is in the same state christianity was 600 years ago, it is loud and belligerant,it fills believers heads and rules their every action.
It has taken us 600 years to put the church and christianity where it belongs in the background.
I suspect it will take the people of the islamic countries a equall period to do the same.
I have no problem with anything people believe, little green men alien abdutions,god, ghosts or any other irrationality ,for the most part harmless, if kept in there place, way in the background.
The christian church made Europe a hell for a thousand years, I suspect Islam is about to do the same.

HugMonster
19th Sep 2001, 16:07
Angel, Islam is no more guilty of all your allegations than is almost any religion, or none. Draper's point is also a good one. Are you aware, for example, of the religion of Milosevic and Karadzic? Or the IRA, the Red Brigade?

Do you blame all Christians for what the Christian Brothers did to many school children?

Remember the Crusades, the Inquisition, the burning of "witches", the persecutions under Mary I and Elizabeth I, etc. etc. The country that was the immediate target of these attacks was formed partly out of a desire for religious freedom from oppression.

If I were to bomb Whitehall with a bunch of associates and we were to claim it was all in YOUR defence and honour, I think you would be the first to claim no knowledge at all of this movement.

Islam itself is not to blame for last week's horrific atrocity. Twisted religionists are. That is why I have such a deep suspicion of ANY religious fundamentalist, including OCB. Remember his "Death to Islam" cry? Consider, for a moment, the Timothy McVeigh's rationale was Waco and the takedown of the Branch Davidians.

Religion arouses strong feelings everywhere. In such strong feelings is the danger that anger will follow. Put someone in fear of their life and you are treading dangerously.

Yoda, that master of Britain's newest (alleged) religion, Jedi, said "Fear leads to hate, hate leads to anger, anger leads to the Dark Side". ;)

For what actions people take (or are induced to take) when their strong emotions get twisted, you cannot blame the religion. Blame the twisted clerics and leaders whose aims are set rather lower than bringing the people to God.

Slasher
20th Sep 2001, 07:12
Too true Drapes, only Id put islam more at 400 years behind christianity.

Celtic Emerald
20th Sep 2001, 15:42
You're not thinking of jumping off a building are you Maxalt dear. Well if you are thinking of committing hari kari PLEASE don't land on me :eek:

Seroiusly as far as I know committing suicide is stricting against Islam as stated in the Koran. But of course these crazy fundamentalists interpret & twist the teachings of the Koran to suit their own twisted logic & interpretation of life to suit themselves & to make life hell for everyone. What these fundamentalists believe & what are the true teachings of the Koran from my limited knowledge of Islam seem to be totally contradictory.

Salam Aleikum

Emerald :p

[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]

[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]

radeng
20th Sep 2001, 17:33
Personally, being a bit of a vindictive b*****d, I just hope that the perpetrators of last week burn in hell for the rest for the rest of time while those of their supporters still alive die long, slow agonising deaths before joining their colleagues in hell.

With any luck, for this lot, the houris will turn out to be pigs, too.

I really don't see that 'Muslim' describes these people: they're more like the equivalent of satanists - upside down cross, Lord's prayer said backwards and so on.

mutt
21st Sep 2001, 21:51
Hugmonster

I do apologize for allowing my immense anger interfere with my last response to you. While all of us have had to come to terms with the atrocities of last week, some of us were lead to believe that at least 5 of the terrorists were actually work colleagues and in one case an acquaintance. (A fact later disproved when they all showed up alive, or in one case was killed in a light aircraft crash last year.)

Wherever Mutt lives, whatever Muslims he lives amongst, they will be a very different breed from elsewhere, like Christians.

I live 40 miles from the center of Islam, a country where most of the “named” hijackers once called home. Apart from reading the Koran and living under Shariah law, I have had the opportunity to discuss Islam over the years with a wide range of Moslems, including some who are presently believed to be in Afghanistan and those who have trained there. I have spoken to people who were ecstatic to see the USA attacked, and yet owned houses in the US. People who have written famous books on Islam, and have stated that they will return to their adopted country of Canada to continue the Jihad if American attacks Afghanistan. People who firmly believe that 4286 Jews didn’t go to work that day because the atrocities were conducted by the Mossad. People who believe that the Hijackers couldn’t be true Moslems because they drank! Then there is my Moslem girlfriend, who at the age of 21, couldn’t give a rat’s a5se about any of this.

So to me, religion isn’t about what’s written in a book, but it’s about how that book is interpreted by its followers.

If I were to bomb Whitehall with a bunch of associates and we were to claim it was all in YOUR defence and honour, I think you would be the first to claim no knowledge at all of this movement.

At least for me this used to happen all the time, I believe that they call themselves the IRA!

Huggie, please accept my initial apology, unfortunately I am not getting into a debate on this subject as I only have a couple of days left before going to NYC.

Finally, thanks for the Surat’s, when I asked for some justification of last weeks actions, I was pointed towards 4:74. Read it in conjunction with the presence of non-believers in the Holy Land and the present situation in Palestine.

Mutt

Bally Heck
21st Sep 2001, 22:44
Something I've been wondering for a few days. Now bear with me, I don't have any personal enemies and I have a fairly relaxed and tolerant attitude to most things.

However, suppose there was someone or a group of people who really p!ssed me off. Could I embrace Islam, declare a fatwah on them and relax whilst others dealt with my problem and sent themselves of to an afterlife of luxury in the process.

This seems to me to be how the system works.

Perhaps I could embrace Islam and declare a fatwah on Adolf bin Laden and the Taleban.

HugMonster
21st Sep 2001, 23:17
Mutt, thanks for the apology - duly accepted.

Having just read 4:74, I think I need to get further guidance - I don't understand how it could justify last week's atrocities.

I accept your point about religion being not about what is written in a book, but about what is in people's minds. However, when they themselves claim justification for their actions based on that book, we need perhaps to examine their claims fairly closely.

Sorry about the worries about your friends and colleagues, and have a safe journey to NYC.