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throber69
16th Sep 2001, 00:08
CNN has today interviewed Colin Powell, during the interview he commented that "it is the responsabiltiy of all demcocratic nations to fight the war against terrorism".

Later a list of countries that the US classifies as aiding or harbouring terrorism was shown the UK was included in this. This list also included almost every european country.

I find it hard to swallow that after the support of the US by the UK this was so readily shown.

The fact the Taliban were funded by the US for a great part of the eighties seems to have escaped the estimed US media, that apart the contra rebels in central america are hadrly a conventional force, and last but not least the contiual flow of vast funds to various Republican groups in Ireland.

The thouhgt that no terrorist groups are harboured or supported in the US is simply ridiculous, perhaps if the media coverage was objective we would see an deacrease in terrorism on a global scale.

Perhaps no country should be leftout of the list of countries who, all be it unwittingley, support the individuals who's actions cost the lives of many innocent people every day.

THROBER 69

The Guvnor
16th Sep 2001, 00:32
At the risk of appearing once again 'anti-American' can I assume that the US was also included on that list for its safe harbouring of IRA terrorists and condoning their fundraising activities through Noraid and other organisations?

Nope?

Why doesn't that surprise me? :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

PaperTiger
16th Sep 2001, 00:56
Agree with the Guv - 'strewth.

And depending on what they mean by harbouring, just where had the WTC cells been living for months/years immediately prior ? But remember that many of the pronouncements from US government right know are primarily for domestic consumption, understandably so. And the 'popular' US media is going to be even more isolationist than usual. Apparently it's Canada's fault that the INS failed to intercept the terrorists at the border, if in fact that's how they enetered.

Also agree with the sentiment of another thread. There is and will continue to be a lot of misinformation out there. Possibly some disinformation too. Hard facts and hard evidence will take a lot longer, some of which we may never be told.

(I'm pro-American, but not blindly so.)

pilot67
16th Sep 2001, 00:56
I must say the UK is our best budddy in the world and always has been, maybe not in the 1700's though.

Now terrorists operate the free societies because WE allow them to. Maybe it is time to tighten up some laws and rather than secretly follow some of these characters...we silently send them back "HOME" in a box...collect.

Nick Figaretto
16th Sep 2001, 01:12
I see a real danger here. The western world may in short time become a slave to the US definition to "harboring terrorists."

Whatever country the US may define as "harbourng terrorists" we may have to accept. Oherwise we will be accused of disrespecting the victims of the September 11th 2001 disaster. Which we do not!

And please don't take this as an insult. I just hope you can see that this might become a possible forthcoming problem, and a threat to the freedom of the countries supporting the US.

Nick.

throber69
16th Sep 2001, 01:19
Can't quite believe i agree with the Guv, hopefully (but highley unlikley i fear) the estimed US media will make the connection between one terrorist activity and all the rest.

And maybe, jusy maybe, they will think before they drop that note into the "Noraid" box!!!

GIVE UP NOW BIN LINER!!

LOVE AND KISSES THROBER 69

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: throber69 ]

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Sep 2001, 01:23
Agree with Guv. I've been researching whether the USA's newfound conversion to the anti-terrorist camp, which of course one welcomes, includes the destruction of Noraid, which they could have done in a day or so as a cheap initial win, and can find no mention of any such action.

Toilet Porpoise
16th Sep 2001, 01:31
As a proud American, proud to call many of my European brothers and sisters allies in both times of peace and times of war I’ll be the first to say that we are just as guilty of harboring these genetic throwbacks as is many other parts of the world.

But it’s time to set aside these statements and come together for the good of every freedom loving human and eliminate this disease before it spreads to everyone and effects us all.

I understand from many people that it was not only Americans who died in the horrible attack, but British, French, German, Japanese, Swiss and many many more…

This has touched us all.

And when we go in we go in as one. The American military has the highest regards for the Brits,

Especially the brave men who live by the motto;

“Those who dare wins”

I look forward to seeing you on the front lines brothers, when this is over the first round of beer is on me.

ShyTorque
16th Sep 2001, 01:35
Can someone just remind me where the suicide pilots were supposedly trained? Wasn't it the US.. of erm...?

Here in UK, as elsewhere, we are reaping the results of reduced immigration controls, just as predicted. Modern liberalism has ill-advisedly allowed free movement of all groups, good or bad, because of the so-called human rights issues.

Our present government has done more to allow free movement of terrorists in UK than any other in history. I for one hope that it isn't about to blow up in our faces, figuratively or literally speaking.

ShyT :(

The Guvnor
16th Sep 2001, 01:42
Come back, Enoch, all is forgiven!

Bit late for that - he's dead, unfortunately.

Quite possibly the best Prime Minister Britain never had... :(

Is it just me or does it seem as if the US government is making a complete hash of things from a PR viewpoint?

throber69
16th Sep 2001, 01:44
Toilet Porpoise,

Remeber the actions you take today, the world pays for tomorow. Lets hope that George 'jon wayne' Bush acts with care.

So clean house first stop the noraid donations.

"THE THROBER WHO DARES WINS"

LOVE AND KISSES THROBER 69

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: throber69 ]

Toilet Porpoise
16th Sep 2001, 01:47
Guv,

Unfortunately thats just the way our government likes to do business and the media just luv's it up to boot...

Rongotai
16th Sep 2001, 01:51
SkyTorque

The dilemma the West now faces is that free movement of people has been extended not because of 'human rights', but because free market globalisation requires it. If labour, skill and expertise - central components of a free market economic system - are constrained in their movement, then you don't have a true market. For example, without immigrant labour Britain (and my country, New Zealand) does not have a functioning public health system. Without immigrant labour needs, where will many Ppruners get their break into the airlines?

The perpretators of WTC want, among other things, to destroy the globalised capitalist system. It is not the destruction of the WTC that achieves that, but the restrictions on freedom of movement that follow.

Therein lies the current dilemma.

Toilet Porpoise
16th Sep 2001, 02:04
throber69


Yes “the actions you take today, the world pays for tomorrow”


But that notwithstanding I just pray the world is physically and mentally prepared for what is most certain to happen.

George 'jon wayne' Bush as well as many many people are mad as hell and I really hate to say it but I believe our response will be massive, it will be sustained and remorseless but above all it will be brutal.

I just hope the world; especially our allies won’t look upon us as savages.
And it somewhat hurts me to say the general attitude here is vengeance and I am somewhat ashamed to say yes, I to would not mind revenge effected upon those who perpetrated this. I would not mind the taste of blood as long as we can be assured we are positive who the guilty part is.

I am not for the killing of innocent civilians whomever they may be. Even though many folks in the Arab world may hate us that does not give us the right to attack them. You may hate us and even protest us as long as it is done in a peaceful manor. But once you attack us, I feel that is the line.

Sorry if I offend you or anyone but I have not cried this much in a long long time.
:(

throber69
16th Sep 2001, 02:17
Total,

Send in the fleet and sink the whole bloody lot of them!!

LOVE AND KISSES THROBER69

Cyclic Hotline
16th Sep 2001, 02:30
BBC chief apologises for anti-US TV audience

LONDON (Reuters) - The head of the BBC, Greg Dyke, has apologised for broadcasting a live discussion programme in which audience members blamed U.S. foreign policy for Tuesday's terror attacks.

More than 2,000 viewers complained after seeing the former U.S. Ambassador to Britain, Philip Lader, brought close to tears after attempts to express his sadness over the attacks were shouted down by people expressing anti-American views.

"On balance, I think it was an inappropriate programme to broadcast live just two days after the attacks in the United States and I would like to apologise to viewers who were offended by it," Dyke said in a statement.

The scenes on the Question Time programme on Thursday night prompted Dyke, the BBC's Director General, to add: "With hindsight this programme should have been recorded and edited before it was broadcast."

"I have today spoken to Philip Lader, and apologised for any distress the programme may have caused him," Dyke said.

The programme's presenter, David Dimbleby, struggled to control the discussion and tempers became raised, according to the BBC.

The Corporation said that many of those who complained about the programme said the audience seemed to contain a disproportionate number of people with anti-American views.

The BBC said that the programme tried to pick audiences with a broad range of views and had hoped to stage a frank discussion about the attacks.

tony draper
16th Sep 2001, 02:38
Well it is true Britain did have and may still have the head offices of a few questionable organisations in London.
There was a bit of a stink about it a few years back, wasn't one of them just shut down recently and some guy deported, much to the distress of the luvies?.
A lot of these organisation have contacts with each other, so if you have the offices of the ANC and other organisations like that in London, you can expect to be considered as harboring unfriendlies to some nations.

The Guvnor
16th Sep 2001, 02:54
Ummm, Tony Draper - I'd just like to point out that the ANC forms the government in South Africa at present! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

It does however show that today's terrorist is often tomorrow's President!

tony draper
16th Sep 2001, 03:02
I am aware of that Mr G, The ANC turned out to be the good guys it was a example of looking fondly on one organisation that other nations don't regard in the same manner,bad example I suppose.
Organisations such as zanu zapu bloody harpo and groucho,have had offices in London, perhaps its time the west stopped interfering in third world politics, and selecting one bunch of loonies as the one the west want's to win,no matter what the outcome, we finish up on somebodies sh*t list.
Not a rant Mr G,just a observation.
I said in another post that it is ironic that Europe and America may have to erect our own iron curtains.

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

gwallerich
16th Sep 2001, 03:29
From a Yank:

The NBAA (National Business Aircraft Association) (nbaa.com) is keeping folks like me (general aviation) up to date on the restrictions here in the U.S. They also have a link to a business aircraft security organization which, in addition to a number of good tips on corporate aircraft security in the wake of Tuesday's atrocity, lists the three areas most hazardous to U.S. citizens at the present time - the Mideast, United States, and Great Britain!

On another note, my interest has been piqued by the communications from Pakistan and the Taliban regime. It seems to me that, by putting Pakistan in the awkward position of either agreeing to assist the U.S. in the anti-terrorist fight or suffer severe consequences, they have triggered threats from the Taliban threatening reprisals for countries that assist the U.S. Should the Taliban attack Pakistan, would Pakistan use their nukes in response, thereby allowing the U.S. to stand aside and smile while Moslems take out Moslems? Hmmm.

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: gwallerich ]

LatviaCalling
16th Sep 2001, 04:28
Throber69,

I tried to E-mail you privately, but your mail listed on PPruNe came back as non-exisisting. Now, I will post the same message on the forum and maybe it will reach you:

"For my own information, I would like to know where you got the information that Britain is harboring international terrorists. In your posting, you put Powell and the list together. Was there, indeed, a list that Powell showed during his CNN interview? I've been tuned to CNN since the start of this awful tragedy and have not run across it. I would appreciate an answer.

Best regards,
Emil (LatviaCalling)"

Cyclic Hotline
16th Sep 2001, 05:02
The only story I have read along these lines, was not connected to the administration or CNN, was this one.

Bin Laden's Sister Lives in Britain
By ED JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer

LONDON (AP) - A sister of suspected terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) is living in Britain, a Conservative lawmaker said Friday.

The issue was raised during an emergency session of Parliament called in the wake of Tuesday's devastating suicide attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon (news - web sites).

Some lawmakers have expressed concern that Muslim extremist groups are using London as a base for fund-raising and disseminating propaganda.

Meanwhile, an alleged bin Laden supporter, London-based Algerian Haydar Abu Doha, appeared in court for an extradition hearing. A further hearing was set for Sept. 28.

Abu Doha has been named by U.S. prosecutors as a key figure in bin Laden's network and a mastermind of the thwarted attempt to bomb Los Angeles airport during millennium celebrations. He allegedly helped terrorists travel to training camps in Afghanistan (news - web sites) and sent others to Canada to prepare for the failed attack.

Opening the House of Commons debate, Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) said it was likely that Islamic radicals were responsible for the attacks, but "we know that they do not speak or act for the vast majority of decent, law-abiding Muslims throughout this world.''

Conservative lawmaker Henry Bellingham later asked Foreign Secretary Jack Straw if he was aware bin Laden's sister was living in Britain.

"Are you aware that there are still a number of extremist Middle East organizations in London fund-raising and peddling evil?'' he asked, and named a Muslim cleric based in a north London mosque. Bellingham did not allege the sister was involved in bin Laden's activities.

Straw said he was aware of the cleric, but said nothing about the woman.

Blair's official spokesman said relationships in bin Laden's family "are quite complicated.''

"Bin Laden himself has distanced himself from his family for the last 10 years. As to precisely whether his sister is here or not, we are checking that out,'' he said, briefing reporters on condition of anonymity.

Britain's Press Association later quoted an unidentified Home Office source as confirming the woman was living legally in Britain, and that security services were keeping an eye on her.

New anti-terrorism legislation that took effect earlier this year empowered Britain to ban groups that commit violence abroad and to crack down on supporters who channel funds and recruits to terrorist organizations.

The government banned 21 radical groups, including bin Laden's al-Qaeda. More than half the banned groups are militant Islamic organizations, including the Palestinian group Islamic Jihad.

Rollingthunder
16th Sep 2001, 06:21
Latvia Calling...

LONDON is still a haven for Islamic extremists preaching global terrorism, despite tough laws passed last year to curb their activities.

Dozens of Islamic activists, wanted in their own countries on terrorism charges, are still resident in Britain, and are active in movements supporting the violent overthrow of pro-Western governments in the Middle East. Embassies in London said that the law passed after the Omagh bombing, which was intended to prevent London being used to plot terrorism overseas, had made little difference.
At least nine governments have asked Britain to extradite terrorists who they complain are operating freely in Britain. They are believed to include India, Yemen, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Afghanistan, Algeria, Jordan and Sri Lanka. Already this year, 16 men with alleged links to Osama bin Laden have been arrested in Britain. One of them, Khalid al-Fawwaz, is alleged to have bought the satellite telephone that was used to give the orders to bomb the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. He was moved from Brixton to Belmarsh top security prison within hours of the US attacks as he is still awaiting extradition to America.
A senior Israeli diplomatic source said that known Palestinian militants were sheltering in London. “Just because you put some groups on a banned list it doesn’t mean that its members just sit at home knitting. They are still active. They just are a bit more careful and operate under different names.”

Yemen has sent Britain a detailed dossier on Sheikh Abu Hamza al Masri, a militant cleric whom it accuses of masterminding a plot to bomb British targets in the port city of Aden in 1998.

Security sources in Sanaa have evidence that he sent his son, stepson and others from his Supporters of Sharia (SOS) group to training camps in Yemen run by the Islamic Army of Aden. His recruits confessed in a Yemeni court to giving £2,000 to Abu Hassan, a local terrorist leader, to pay for weapons and their training.
Abu Hassan led the kidnap of 16 Western tourists and told his gunmen to murder as many as they could when the Yemeni Army tried to rescue them. Four tourists, including three Britons, were killed. While Abu Hassan was holding his hostages he contacted the Sheikh at his London office using a satellite telephone provided by the SOS group. The Islamic Army of Aden is on the banned list but Hamza’s own SOS group is not.
Tunisia, which has demanded the extradition of several prominent extremists who have claimed asylum in Britain, said that the entire leadership of the banned al-Nahda party was now in London.
Tunisia is calling for this party to be added to Britain’s list of banned organisations. “There is a whole terrorist cell here with links with other extremist groups,” Muhammad Bou Gamra, the Tunisian press counsellor, said. “We have been warning our partners in Britain and Europe, and a month ago we again asked Britain for their extradition. We have still not received a reply.”
A prominent Tunisian Islamist who heads the list was convicted in absentia in Tunisia of plotting a terrorist explosion that blew off the foot of a British girl visiting Tunisia.

Egypt also has demanded the extradition of Yassir Serri, whom it accuses of responsibility for the Luxor massacre. Zaki Ghazi, the Egyptian press counsellor, said that a number of Egyptian Islamists lived in London. “The new law has not stopped their activities. They have linked up with other terrorists.” He said that Mr Serri had recently published a book by an associate of Osama bin Laden, encouraging Muslims to kill Americans, Christians and Jews.

Egypt has been so angered by Britain’s refusal to expel Egyptian Islamist activists that it has on several occasions summoned the
British Ambassador in Cairo and warned him that Egypt would take diplomatic measures if nothing was done. Islamic Jihad, one of the Egyptian militant organisations, has been placed on a banned list.

Turkey has also demanded the extradition of political and religious extremists in London, but never succeeded. Two Kurdish groups, the PKK Workers Party and HKPC, are now banned in Britain, but an embassy spokesman said that its members were “still terrorising people and extorting money in North London”. He said
that some extremists had now established legal businesses in Britain, but many were also involved in anti-Turkish and terrorist
activities.
Before the law was changed to ban the collection of money for terrorism overseas and to outlaw conspiracy to commit terrorism,
Britain was seen as a haven for any extremist wanting to hide from his government. Britain’s partners, especially France and Germany, were angered by the number of Algerian and Kurdish militants who made London their headquarters and co-ordinated
operations overseas from there.

As Prime Minister, John Major promised to make extremists unwelcome in Britain but proposed Conservative legislation to outlaw the advocacy for or support of terrorism in Britain was defeated after Labour objections.

Indian diplomats have evidence of young British Muslims being recruited by British-based groups to fight in Kashmir. A suicide bomber who attacked an army base in Srinagar in January came from Bradford. One diplomatic source said: “We have arrested a
number of Britons trying to infiltrate into Kashmir with explosives with the intention of carrying out terrorist attacks. We know who
is recruiting these people and they are not on the UK’s banned list.” He added: “We have also listed mosques and colleges where money is raised for terrorist activities in Kashmir.” Three groups, including Jaish e-Mohammed, Lashkar e Tayyaba and Harakat
Mujahideen, are on the banned list. A senior Indian diplomat said yesterday: “We now hope that Britain will introduce tighter enforcement laws on militants operating in the UK and make extradition a swifter process.”
Last year two Sikhs, Mukhtiar Singh, 27, and Paramjit Singh, 26, fought extradition in the Court of Appeal in London. They had been arrested for plotting to smuggle explosives from Pakistan to India and planning terrorist attacks. A judge blocked their deportation, saying that the pair were at risk of torture if they were handed back to India. Both belonged to the International Sikh Youth Federation which has been outlawed.

British security services found evidence that the pair who arrived in Britain illegally, were using their base here to continue to plot terror activities abroad.

The Russian Government has also protested at the number of British passport holders who have been recruited by extremist Islamic sects to fight in Chechnya.

The Times.

mutt
16th Sep 2001, 08:29
Bin Laden's Sister Lives in Britain
By ED JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer

Talk about a bloody witch hunt!! Are they going to dunk her in a pond to see if she drowns, if she does then she wasnt involved with her brother!

There is one thing that people are totally forgetting here, OBL is just one person, his power comes from his religious ideals and total hatred of the west and Middle Eastern puppet goverments, especially in his former homeland. Removing him will not solve the problem, if anything it will just make it worse.

IMHO, OBL and his supporters firmly believe that they are fighting for God, their actions on earth will be richly rewarded in Heaven. Therefore, if the bodies of the 18 hijackers are ever found, I hope that they are buried facing North or South. (I would say more about how they should be buried, but it isnt appropriate for Pprune.)

The British tried to win a dirty war against the IRA, they failed miserably.

For the US and the world to win this war, they will have to rewrite the rule book. They can learn from the UK, send in the military and leave CNN at home.

I just hope that the US's resolve is strong enough for the task ahead of them.


Mutt.

mutt
16th Sep 2001, 08:40
By Terence Nelan
ABCNEWS.com
Question: Which of the following nightmarish scenarios is the plot of a Hollywood film with a special effects budget of $100 million?
A) An Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organizes a band of dedicated followers intent on violence and mayhem in New York City. Then the group plots to assassinate the visiting President of Egypt, blow up the United Nations, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels and the federal building.

I hate to say it, but this isnt taken from last weeks newspapers, its from http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/terror_tech991101.html


Mutt.

Cyclic Hotline
16th Sep 2001, 09:12
Mutt,
I am glad to see you back. I have been thinking of you in the last few days.

I only post these stories, don't write them, nor endorse them. I share your opinion on this matter.

Another story, perhaps far more relevant to the reality of fanatiscim of any kind, is the fact that it is not shared by all.

I have considered in the last few days, whether if these terrorists had been caught prior to the act the accomplished, if anyone would have believed it, or taken the threat as credible if it were averted.


Osama Bin Laden Denounced by Family

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - The family of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) denounced the notorious Saudi dissident on Saturday and offered their condolences to victims of the terror attacks in the United States.

In a telephone interview from the Red Sea port city of Jiddah, the head of the wealthy bin Laden family, Sheik Abdullah Awad Aboud bin Laden, expressed deep sorrow over Tuesday's attacks.

"The family has previously announced its position (to distance itself) from Osama and condemned his acts. All the family members condemn all violent and terrorist acts, even if Osama is behind them,'' said the sheik, who is bin Laden's uncle.

Bin Laden and his al-Qaeda organization have been named by the United States as key suspects in the coordinated airborne attack on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon (news - web sites) in Washington.

U.S. authorities also suspect bin Laden of masterminding the August 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, which killed 231 people, including 12 Americans. Additionally, he is believed to have played a role in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, the 1996 bombing of U.S. military housing in Saudi Arabia and last year's attack on the USS Cole (news - web sites) in Yemen.

The bin Laden family issued a statement in 1994 expressing its "regret, denunciation and condemnation of all acts that Osama bin Laden may have committed, which we do not condone and we reject.''

Bin Laden, who reportedly inherited $300 million from his family's construction business, has lived a nomadic existence for several years. He was deported from several Islamic countries before finding a haven in Afghanistan (news - web sites), which has rejected U.S. demands for his extradition.

A fundamentalist Muslim, bin Laden is known to run training camps for Islamic fighters in eastern Afghanistan, and he is thought to have many followers in many countries.

DC Meatloaf
16th Sep 2001, 09:17
I'm very saddened by this thread.

You may disagree with way in which the U.S. has gone about exercising its foreign policy. But to suggest that this attack would have been prevented had we been more compassionate, more open to hearing the grievances of the monsters who perpetrated this atrocity is absurd, insulting, and naïve.

It also makes you, who would raise this suggestion while we stand bloodied, look quite small.

I wish you’d stop.

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: DC Meatloaf ]

SLB
16th Sep 2001, 10:09
Latvia Calling, I haven't seen an answer to your valid question.

throber69, I agree this isn't right if it is so, what list are you referring to? . Excuse my skepticism.
Is this "list" a wind up? :confused:

Bluemax2
16th Sep 2001, 10:37
UK is a soft touch indeed for most things hence the huge log jam of so called refugees trying to enter UK,
Bomber Blair has let a whole load of terrorists lose with no real deal in place.
After Omagh bombing I remember Blair saying all the same thing that Bush is now saying about going after them but it was all hollow words which sounded good on the day. Bush I think is made of different stuff and does not have to keep in with a load of bearded anorak clad do gooders which we in the UK are plagued with.

fcom
16th Sep 2001, 13:48
I think now would be a good time to stop the flow of so called asylum seekers into the UK.It never ceases to amaze me that these people can illegally eneter this country and when they are caught and imprisoned they are released with compensation.Lets get these people deported immediately before they blow the ***** out of this country.

Jolly Tall
16th Sep 2001, 14:16
Thanks Bluemax2 for your most constructive and enlightening posting. Despite so many generations of bloodshed and policy failures in NI, obviously Blair should have kept his "bearded anoraks" at bay, and with more of the same could have gone on to victory in N. Ireland eh?

Fcom,
There is deemed to be currently no practical way to enter the UK legally as an asylum seeker, and the vast majority of those who do enter DO NOT do so with the intention of "blowing the ***** out of this country". We need to get a grip of this situation before we unleash something deeply unpleasant - echoes of 1930's Europe.

QM
16th Sep 2001, 14:17
fcomm,

Here here, after spending time in the Metropolitan Police, i did my bit to deport illegals, but the government kept on bringing them back! Where does it stop.

P.S. UK Teletext has a report about the SAS training the Taliban warriors in Scotland back in the 80's.

Zoom
16th Sep 2001, 15:42
barefacedcheek
In relation to the troubles in Northern Ireland you suggested that the 'relative peace' was due to the Government's willingness to 'negotiate and give some ground'. The 'relative peace' is extremely fragile and exists not through negotiation and problem-solving but purely through giving ground to Sinn Fein/IRA, eg releasing convicted terrorists (loyalists too, granted), allowing murderers into government, giving up on arms decommissioning, etc. Violence will resume as soon as either a) Sinn Fein/IRA stops getting what it wants or b) the loyalist community gets fed with giving all of the time. Fact.
Some 'shining example'.

Jolly Tall
16th Sep 2001, 15:50
Not "fact" Zoom, but opinion (to be charitable to you).

Appeal to moderators: transfer this thread to Jetblast as it no longer has anything to do with R & N.

keepitlit
16th Sep 2001, 15:53
The Gov,I totally agree with you regarding funding to the Irish terrorists.
I reside in Ulster and only know too well about troubles.
I think this will help stop their privatly funded war in Northern Ireland when they find out who has had dealings with these guys.
I would however say this is not to take away from the sorrow I have for these people and their families.

Andu
16th Sep 2001, 16:56
This presents a bit of conundrum for the Americans, for weren’t their much honoured forefathers ‘terrorists’ when they first resisted the British colonial rule in 1776?

Velvet
16th Sep 2001, 23:23
As uaual Mutt, the media got it wrong. It is not Bin Laden's sister, but his sister-in-law who is British (her family live here), but doesn't live in Britain. His family have disowned him, and they are not responsible for his actions surely. Still I guess it makes for good copy - never let truth get in the way of a good story.

The reason this turned to NI, is purely because we have been fighting terrorism in Ireland for decades and have not yet found the answer. Also, that the IRA were mostly funded by misguided Americans who saw the Irish terrorists as romantic Robin Hood figures, fighting against the brutal British invaders.

Terrorism is never romantic, it is usually against innocent civilian targets - for it is not a war in the accepted sense, but fired and fueled by a belief in a cause. Supported by those who turn a blind eye to the consequences of that support, for mostly they do not want to know that terrorism is bloody and murderous.

All the rhetoric about war will have to give way to reality, for Americans cannot invade every country where there are presumed terrorist cells. By all means bring the perpetrators to justice, justice that is seen and carried out fairly. But don't go on a witch-hunt - this will ultimately achieve the very outcome that the terrorists most want.


We have to live in hope that Bush and his advisers have the wisdom to know how to deal with this.

Jackonicko
17th Sep 2001, 04:25
At least those who've gone off on the Irish tangent are concerned with fighting terrorism. I'm much more worried by the insidious racism of some of those (not all) using this tragedy as an excuse to bang on about the perils of immigration and asylum policy.

HugMonster
18th Sep 2001, 19:56
keepitlit - how's it going?

Remember - we know where you live, son!

Jackonicko
18th Sep 2001, 23:46
Neutral 99,
Wasn't really talking about you, was more offended by comments about Enoch, and by QM, FCOM and BM2, but if any of you choose to use the same language for justifying tightening up immigration controls as do the BM, NF and Combat 18, then don't be surprised if people assume that you're right-wing bigots using this tragedy to justify your own political agenda. And if that wasn't your intention, and that security implications aside you really are committed to a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic Britain, which abides by its responsibilities to the less fortunate, please accept my unreserved apology. But are you seriously saying that the average asylum seeker is the most likely terrorist? I think not.

Jackonicko
18th Sep 2001, 23:49
Neutral 99,
Wasn't really talking about you, was more offended by comments about Enoch, and by QM, FCOM and BM2, but if any of you choose to use the same language for justifying tightening up immigration controls as do the BM, NF and Combat 18, then don't be surprised if people assume that you're right-wing bigots using this tragedy to justify your own political agenda. And if that wasn't your intention, and that security implications aside you really are committed to a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic Britain, which abides by its responsibilities to the less fortunate, please accept my unreserved apology. But are you seriously saying that the average asylum seeker is the most likely terrorist? I think not.