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View Full Version : Some E-Mail I Received - Different Reactions To WTC Attack


Winston Smith
12th Sep 2001, 19:21
Note: I'm posting this on Jet Blast because Danny asked not to turn the corresponding threads on Rumours & News into "political discussions"

Let me share with you three reactions I got after engaging in the World Trade Center thread (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=015388&p=1), where I (admittedly at an untimely moment) suggested that the USA are now experiencing what they have been (directly or indirectly) inflicting on others for decades, comments which have been more or less deliberately misinterpreted by some.

One individual, who apparently used his real name (which I'm withholding), wrote the following: Sir, I will not respond to you and your posts on the forum. I will do it private. I am an airline pilot, I am not a US citizen, but I am sadden but the events of today, we lost brothers and sisters in those cockpits today and only God knows what kind of hell they went through.
I am letting you know that I have sent to the FBI and CIA copies of your posts along with your Pprune email and membership number. I don't know if Winston Smith is your real name or not, but I am certain the proper authorities whereever in the world you might be will find out soon enough.
As you can see I have emailed you from my email and using my real name, in other words being a real man. I hope the punishment the law enforcement or God have in store for you are painfull and extended.Please read my posts (the first being on this page (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=015388&p=4)) and decide for yourself exactly who is dangerous: I'm disgusted by the thought of there being professional pilots with that kind of police-state mentality. But then, it's just a case of killing the messenger anyway.


Another E-Mail by someone from the Midwest: Mr. Smith - I salute you for being one of the few people willing to speak the truth. While I am sickened by today's events, one phrase does come to mind...
Payback is a bitch.
As an American by birth but not by political belief, I think it's all pretty simple. You slap people around for forty years and kill innocent people, assassinate foreign leaders, overthrow duly elected governments, etc........and someone, eventually, is going to slap back.
I applaud your honesty.

And the following PPRuNe Private Message by a British resident: It's not helpful to turn a level-headed board into a flamewar, so I'm not posting this publically.

Please count me as supporting your view that America's own chickens had returned to roost. Obviously I don't support this, but I'm certainly not surprised by it either.

The sad part is that they'll probably over-react in some entirely inappropriate way, like bombing the whole wrong country. A country that powerful, yet _still_ so naive is truly scary.


Now, what are your opinions? Should "we" indiscriminately retaliate against muslim countries, thus accelerating the downward spiral? The next major terrorist attack might be chemical or biological. Don't you think it's time to reevaluate Western involvement in other parts of the world instead of continuing down the path which made such a catastrophe possible?

heloplt
12th Sep 2001, 20:04
I am an American...and proud of it. I do not know what nationality you guys are but I assume that there might be an English, German, Ruwandan, Iraqi, Syrian, French, Belgian, Spanish, or some other nationality that has some excess baggage in its collective past.

To excuse the horrible tragedy that occurred yesterday by suggestion we got our justly deserved come uppance is a load of bullshit.

Innocent people just like you and me, while going about their daily business were struck down by criminals of the most heinous type. To include ordinary citizens as legitimate targets of murder debases your very argument.

The European powers and the English of all people need to hold their tongue. Should we remind you of Ireland and so many other colonies that were held bound to the Crown by force including murder, rape and pillage.

It is not a nice world out there. There are people who seek to destroy freedom and democracy such as we have in the United States. The freedom that has produced the greatest nation in history. A nation that is the envy of the world over and hated by those who cannot help but be jealous of our prosperity and position in the world politic.

Do not think that we are apologetic nor ashamed of our country and its ideals. The terrorists who attacke us yesterday proved yet again how great this country is. This event has pulled us together as a nation and they shall realize just how bad a mistake they have made. The country is united in the desire to wage war on those who attacked us...the people who suported them...and woe be any nation that defends them. You foreigners do not comprehend the strength of American public opinion regarding this event.

You are welcome to your opinion but please think about what you are saying before you let lose such drivel. It just might be you in the crosshairs next time and not an American. This is a war against the western world by a very limited number of third world religious zealots and you too are vulnerable. Think about it?

old_cross_bound
12th Sep 2001, 20:14
It's really very simple!

If those flights would have had one or two federal marshals, armed and undercover on each plane, this wouldn't have happened.

The problem is in the thinking of these social agenda authorities who think everyone needs to be disarmed for peace and safety. That's stupid. Hang in there Winston, emotions are high right now.

Heliport
12th Sep 2001, 20:33
Winston
You refer to your earlier post on the main thread, but do not quote it (perhaps for obvious reasons).
The main thread was emotionally charged, people were obviously in a state of shock at this atrocity, the distress of ppruners was obvious. Fellow pilots and Flight Attendants were amongst the thousands of innocent people killed so, not surprisingly, messages of condolence mixed with anger and disbelief were pouring in at such a rate that PPRuNe even had to be shut down at times because the system couldn't cope.

One of the contributors (an American) wrote:
"Words fail,I was born and raised in New York and I feel physically sick at this horrific attack. Those poor people, just starting the day at work, the same as millions the world over and now...Anyone who attacks the United States is attacking democracy and our very way of life, an attack on the US is an attack on all of us. Noone can escape that fact. Nobody attacks the United States and gets away with it. God bless all those people who have suffered today and god bless America."

You chose to make your contribution to the thread a reply specifically addressed to him by name, saying: "It's just that until now the United States got away with attacking everyone else. Like the schoolyard bully who finally discovers that violence can work both ways."

You claim you have been "more or less deliberately misinterpreted by some". :rolleyes:
Let's see:
Not one word of condemnation of the terrorists.
Not one word of respect for the thousands of innocent victims killed or maimed.
Not one word of condolence for their families.

Misinterpreted!
I think people understood all too well what you were saying.
Now you're just trying to squirm your way out of it.

A discussion?
No thanks. I find discussions more enjoyable if I have some respect for the other person, even if I disagree with his views.

Edit:
To Heloplt and other American friends who read this thread:
Your feelings are understandable, and I agree with your disgust.
But PLEASE, PLEASE don't think for a moment that the views of this man (and the other America bashers who will inevitably come out of the woodwork) reflect the views of the vast majority of decent English people who are appalled by this atrocity.
Just look at the opinions expressed on the main thread in R&N. They are representative of general thinking in the UK.
We really do share your shock and pain at this barbarous inhuman crime against the free world.

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Heliport ]

Token Bird
12th Sep 2001, 20:47
While I don't condone the attacks, I can't help feeling that while there are still people with opinions like those expressed by heloplt above there will continue to be attacks of this kind. Surely the US can't continue to dismiss the hatred felt for them by many people all over the world as 'jealousy'. Please get your heads out your own arses!

TB

Evo7
12th Sep 2001, 21:17
Winston - I read your original post and I'm not going to comment on it here. However, at a time like this, if you have nothing positive to say then SHUT UP.

It's bl**dy easy to spout off in front of a computer when you are well distanced from what is going on, but some of us have family in New York and God knows how the the American PPRuNers feel right now. Show some decency before starting some childish flamewar.

Velvet
12th Sep 2001, 22:10
I have not read the original post either, and so can't comment. I would just remind all that this is not just an American tragedy, there were hundreds of British and other nationalities working in the WTC. Some may well have been Muslim, they too suffered from this.

Heloplt yes, precisely because we have suffered from terrorism we can empathise with what is happening. No-one deserves terrorism, It is wrong to demand that we should hold back from comment, even though you feel angry at what has been said. We, the British, stand shoulder to shoulder with the Americans and are consequently also in the firing line.

We may be foreigners, but does that make us enemies? What will you do if the enemy is within?

nomdeplume
12th Sep 2001, 22:45
Token Bird
Winston hans't got a TV. What's your excuse?
This is the biggest terrorist attrocity in the history of the world. The latest news reports say:
"Emergency workers fear the body count in New York alone will top 10,000.
Hospitals in New York are full and bodies - and body parts -are being ferried across the Hudson River to a makeshift morgue and rescuers waded through the World Trade Center's smoking rubble.
Emergency service workers say the full extent of the slaughter may not be known for weeks but already the bodycount has included 300 firefighters in New York and an estimated 800 people at the Pentagon in Washington DC.
More than 250 lives were also lost on the two hijacked airliners which crashed into the World Trade Centre yesterday toppling its twin 110-story towers.
Emergency workers fear the body count in New York alone will top 10,000.
You criticise Heliplt.
Can you really not understand that ordinary American citizens are shattered at the moment?
Or that it is human nature in such circumstances for people to unite in grief and shock?
Or that victims of crime, being human beings not saints, sometimes express themselves more forcefully and defiantly than they otherwise would?
Do you really think it was appropriate to tell an American only hours after this atrocity: "Please get your heads out your own arses!" - even if you do happen to think that is where they are?

Evo obviously sees the wisdom of Heliport's suggestion that we should not rise to Winston's invitation to a discussion about US foreign policy.
So do I, and I invite other decent people to do the same.
Now is not the time.

Velvet
Winston's original comment is quoted in Heliport's post. For my part, I can understand Heliplt's reaction in the circs - isn't it asking quite a lot of any American not to react to such a callous post.
Although many nationalities will have lost their lives, the motive was hatred of America and the object was to kill and maim as many American citizens as possible. Neither the crews and pax on the aircraft, nor the occupants of the WTC were military targets.

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: nomdeplume ]

Golden Monkey
12th Sep 2001, 23:01
Velvet, well said. This is a time for people to act together, not to pull away from others. This is a common threat and should be countered by all nations concerned.

Winston, again I have not read the whole thread. I did, however, see your first posting. I disagree with your views but you do have an entitlement to your opinion. However, this is neither the time, nor the place. People on these forums are grieving, and very few are untouched in any way by this tragedy.

Heloplt, please do not seek to judge other nations without expecting them to apply the same standards to your own. Some of your words, I fear, will only serve to reinforce negative views held by some of your country's critics. I am relieved to note that you do, however, acknowledge that this is the result of actions of a few.

I pray that this does not descend into any unjust action against persons of any one nation, religion or political belief to provide missile camera footage for CNN. We need justice, yes, severe justice, but not blind retribution. I hear on the radio of shootings of Sikhs in New York because they wear beards and turbans, mistaken for those of the Muslim faith wrongly demonised by a media searching for an easy enemy. If this is turned into religious persecution I really fear for so called civilisation.

I hope there are no massive attacks against innocent people of any nation. Bush has already said that he draws no distinction between terrorists and "those nations that harbour them". If that was a reasonable view then we would have been clamouring for the RAF to carpet bomb Irish cities in retribution for the actions of the IRA. That is not the solution.

Find the group responsible, soon, use special forces or other applicable means to eliminate the threat. Attacking more civilians makes us no better than the terrorists and will recruit more suicidal extremists to these causes in an ever worsening cycle.

[Edited in retrospect for removal of a measure of heated reaction]

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: CZBB Is Full ]

Winston Smith
13th Sep 2001, 00:31
heloplt,

not one poster on PPRuNe ever suggested that "we got our justly deserved come uppance". Much less did anyone "include ordinary citizens as legitimate targets of murder".

You are so deeply immersed in your pseudo-patriotism that you are obviously unable to read a statement the way it is written.


Heliport,

as with most of my PPRuNe posts up to this day, I usually don't expressly write anything that either goes without saying (and, in this case, can be expected of any decent human being), or
has already been said by dozens of other posters.
Like anyone who has got a family my thoughts and compassion are with those who lost loved ones, and I admire the heroes who knowingly put their lives at risk to help others. Maybe you are right, probably I should have included some words of respect and condolence in my first post on the topic. But please note that you just admitted to reading what I did not write, and falsely implying that I did not regret that human tragedy as much as you do. Now that's what I call misinterpretation.


Evo7, nomdeplume, and CZBB Is Full,

I already conceded on the original thread that any remarks on the political background of this tragedy are not very appropriate at this early stage. However, some posters who suggested retaliating by killing even more innocent people literally forced me to hold a mirror into their faces.

trolleydollylover
13th Sep 2001, 00:56
CZ you hit the nail on the head. You have said what I am too upset to write about.

I sincerely believe that the world is grieving as one. For those who have a view please just refrain for a while.

Winston I dont generally agree with a great deal of your posts, and my opinions at this time are my own, I would hope that you would temper yours. For the sake of peoples grief prehaps you could adjust/edit your original post. Out of Compassion only.

That is why I started a thread in JB.

I am not afraid to admit that I broke down in tears last night at the scenes of shear hatred, and tears are welling up in my eyes now at things that will haught me forever. I have looked into the eyes of terrorists in NI and the only thing that I can say is their souls are dead. They are beyond retribution - forever in damnation.

nomdeplume
13th Sep 2001, 01:40
I don't know which is more cringe-making.
Winston's original post?
or Winston trying to waffle his way out of it with a thoroughly dishonest explanation?

In a funny sort of way, I'd have slightly more respect for him if he had the bottle to admit that he did mean that the US had got it's 'comeuppance' but has since thought better of it.
Winston's first excuse (on the main thread) was that he hasn't got television and made his comment before knowing the extent of the attack.
What a pathetic little man.

Bailed Out
13th Sep 2001, 02:43
For what it’s worth I’m English but I’d sure as hell sooner be American than "European" and a lot of my countrymen feel the same. My American friends, you tell us where and when and we’ll be there, beside you…………..

HugMonster
13th Sep 2001, 03:50
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that there has been far too much speculation on all aspects of this affair. Go read the main threads - some people don't know when to stop.

Like many of you, I was flying when this horrible sequence of events was occurring. The thought of my cabin crew having their throats cut to lure me out of the flight deck just makes me totally sick. The thought of passengers being totally powerless, sitting there, possibly realising they were going to die, and with them, thousands of others does not bear contemplation.

I read Winston's post. It disgusted me. I am not pro-America. I dislike many aspects of their foreign policy. However, nothing, but nothing can explain or justify this obscenity. The cynicism, the degrading of the value of human lives in someone's mind to make them a tool simply for your own purpose is beyond belief.

Winston's post displayed a total lack of any sympathy, understanding or empathy with what people were going through. But then, we're beginning to get used to his crass stupidities and political naivete.

Like some of you, I spent quite a bit of last night desperately trying to contact people in NY, among whom was my last g/f, who is a lawyer there. Whilst doing that, to be confronted with a post that more or less says "Well, the USA deserves it" was particularly nasty, and to be expected from nobody but the most insensitive cynic.

There is nothing that justifies the deliberate targetting of innocent civilians, thousands being wiped out by a few fanatics. For that reason, please, people, don't blame Islam, or other Muslims for the acts of these subhumans. Nothing in the Koran or any other accepted Muslim writings justifies or permits such atrocity. In fact, it is condemned quite specifically. For that reason, do not believe that a nuclear attack on Tripoli, Addis Ababa, Nablus, Baghdad, Damascus or Kabul will do anything constructive, save reducing us to that same depraved level, and dehumanising all of us.

Hoverman
13th Sep 2001, 03:51
To our American colleagues, friends and allies:

The vast majority of people in the UK stand united with you. Please ignore the despicable comments made by the likes of Winston Smith.

I wouldn't support blind retribution but, as your President rightly said, no distinction should be drawn between those who organised this atrocity, and those who harbour them.
If the organisers are identified, the state harbouring them should be given a reasonable but very short time to hand him/them over.
If they fail to do so, then swift and lethal action should be taken - not token gestures, but extreme and dire retribution.
America, with the support of its allies, has the fire-power to eliminate entire states, and should do so if necessary.
Yes, I know it reduces us to the level of those we condemn, but truly exceptional circumstances call for truly exceptional measures. It's the only language these animals understand.
The US and it's allies should demonstrate that nobody can attack the world's super power, and defender of the free world, in this way and get away with it.

Some will say it wouldn't be effective.
Perhaps they're right.
But I, and I think millions of others on both sides of the Atlantic, would feel a lot better for it.

OneWorld22
13th Sep 2001, 04:00
I was the one who wrote the message, quoted by heloplt, that Winston responded to.
I just want to assure people that it was not me who e-mailed Winston about the FBI/CIA etc. I'm a real democrat who believes in free speech and even thought Winston's comments were to say the least, ill timed, he still has the right to speak his mind even if I don't agree with him.

Feelings are running high, I do feel that the free world was attacked yesterday and not just the US and now NATO have confirmed this, envoking clause 5. The US will suceed in this cause, I have enormous faith in the American people and the way my fellow New Yorkers have responded to this has been amazing. Those who attack the US have made a grave error because the US is resiliant and defiant.

New York is a symbol of how great the United States is and it's spirit will never be diminish, New York and indeed America will come back more united and more determined then ever before and will become stronger. New York will put up buildings to replace those that were lost and will become even bigger.

What I don't want the US to do however, is to just blanket bomb somewhere and kill masses of civilians, without proper and full evidence. They must be absolutely certain of who is responsible, then take the appropriate action.

I feel sorry for those who oppose the United States, because it will always be a fruitless excersise. We will prevail.

Wedge
13th Sep 2001, 04:12
I was not going to get involved in the politics of this (yet) out of respect for the dead, but I will make a few points, this is the way I see it:

This was more than an act of war, it was a war crime. An horrendous, brutal act that targetted innocent civilians.

As a British national I fully support my American friends in this terrible time, but I don't think you do your nation credit with your comments heloplt. Of course Imperial Great Britain has been responsible for outrageous crimes down the centuries, and we don't need to be reminded about Ireland which in my view is the last colonial problem. But your post about 'the English needing to hold their tongue' seems to suggest that you think we English are all hypocrites who can point to the crimes of America and forget our own. You are wrong about that.

For me the most positive thing to come out of this so far is the extent to which the world seems to have come together in condemnation of this event. North Korea, China, Syria, Libya, Lebanon, the PLO have all condemned this outrage and offered condolences. Quadaffi even offered aid! I never thought I would see that happen. I hope that therefore this event will create a new stability rather than uncertainty and war.

I don't think the CIA and FBI will be particularly interested in Winston's comments, I think whoever wrote that email is utterly naive. In the Land of the Free people are not prosecuted for holding an opinion. Well not in theory anyway.

America should retaliate, as I am sure they will. I also believe Bush has enough sensible voices around him to ensure that the response is the correct one and that he doesn't start World War III. There appear to be very few nations now who would deny that America have a right to ensure justice is done - and this of course includes the use of military action.

I have been utterly shocked and devastated by the events of the past two days and I hope I never see such events again. The loss of life is incomprehensible. In the words of the Dire Straits song:

We're fools to make war on our brothers in arms.......

[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: Wedge ]

Paterbrat
13th Sep 2001, 05:03
Winston Smith since you saw fit to bring this to JB and to air it again you obviously felt that you had somehow been victimised for simply airing the truth in your first post.
Do you not find it strange that quite a large number of people seem to have found your posting at the least highly insensitive, and at the worst highly inflamatory. Various of your postings in the past have had a unique flavour, that flavour is unsavoury Winston, ill timed, insensitive, and unpleasant are but a few of the reactions that have gone through my mind in the past on reading your contributions. These are I add simply my own feelings, that presently mingle in with the horror shock and disgust I feel for the perpetrators of the obscenity we all witnessed.
The massive mindless murder of thousands of innocent men women and children in that sick way derserves condemnation not justification, their actions can have no justification and your comments sounded suspiciously as though you felt that there had been.
My interpretation of your posting since you appear to have asked!!!
P.S I thought you were a Mugabe sympathiser the last time now this, you really don't come across very well do you.

"forced to hold a mirror up...." who forced you you sanctamonious pr.t!

[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]

heloplt
13th Sep 2001, 05:56
I may have over reacted in my first post on this,but then I feel any effort to minimize the evil nature of this event or to trivalize the human suffering it has caused, is just plain offensive and ignorant. The entire civilized world, not just the Americans, were attacked yesterday and the losses we suffered belong to all of us.

If I painted with too broad a brush in suggesting that other nationalities also had experiences in their own background that should prevent them from pointing fingers at my country's politics then for that I apolgize.

I shall not grace some of the comments that provoked my reaction by quoting them...but the authors know who they are.

My government has affirmed it shall take a measured, swift, and determined response to this act of war. The President and Secretary of State , each said they would utilize every avenue to bring the attackers to justice and noted repeatedly that they would form the greatest possible coalition of world powers possible , to assist in that goal. They specifically said that when required, they would request the full assistance of any country's government that was in a position to assist in the handing over of persons known to be involved , and that they expected that full support.

In the event that support was refused, then the American government , in conjunction with coalition governments, would take whatever action was deemed appropriate to obtain custody of the attackers.

And yes, before you say it....that is both a dire threat and not very diplomatic. Our leaders have decided in this war against international terrorism, you are either with us or against us. If that offends you, then we know which side you are on.

For me....I would love to be in the front seat, of the lead AH-64, in the first raid, on the first night, with all the rockets, missles, and ammunition I could shoot, when we do hit the perpetrators of this atrocity.

Forever an unrepentent American!

Roofus
13th Sep 2001, 07:51
A wise man knows when to say nothing.

America! My heart, thoughts, prayers & tears are with you.

To debate now the what's, where's & whyfor's is wrong.
Now is not the time for debate, now we need to come together.

So to all the would be 'experts' stay off your soapbox's a while longer out of respect. Thank you.

Cyclic Hotline
13th Sep 2001, 11:14
Who, other than Winston Smith, is proposing?

Should "we" indiscriminately retaliate against muslim countries, thus accelerating the downward spiral?

This has already been attempted in Tokyo if you recall;

The next major terrorist attack might be chemical or biological.

Finally;

Don't you think it's time to reevaluate Western involvement in other parts of the world instead of continuing down the path which made such a catastrophe possible?

I think that quite enough time has been spent discussing this in the past. That is what made this situation possible in the first place. These are not individuals waging a debate - they are blatantly waging a war against the free world.

You are quite correct here though, we are reevaluating the western commitment to the rest of the world at this time. The portions of it that will not work to removing the blight of terrorism from the world, will have that work done for them. There is a front of unity unheralded in the modern world. It is time to capitalise on it and deal some hard and efficient justice to the individuals who wish to declare themselves enemies of freedom and civilisation. The choice will be theirs - take your position, because the day of judgement is here.

This is the opportunity for the entire World to stamp out the foundations of terrorism. This catastrophe was made possible by the lack of appropriate action to dissuade these type of actions. None of this UN crap - real action. Leaders lead, others wither by the wayside.

There is absolutley nothing that can mitigate a reprehensible attack of the nature that has just occurred. If you want to encourage more of the same, then just sit back and do nothing!

You sum your argument up quite nicely;
Let me share with you three reactions I got after engaging in the World Trade Center thread, where I (admittedly at an untimely moment) suggested that the USA are now experiencing what they have been (directly or indirectly) inflicting on others for decades, comments which have been more or less deliberately misinterpreted by some.

Tell me when it will be a timely moment to flippantly discuss the massive loss of life due to terrorism?

What exactly has anyone been misinterpreting (directly or indirectly) about your comments and viewpoints?

The only words used here are your own.

Swamp Rat
13th Sep 2001, 13:49
Winston Smith you really are a shitstirrer aren`t you ? After reading your comments on the white Zimbabwean farmers thread, I really thought you were a D!CKHEAD, but this takes the cake, have you no humanity ? I would like to have read your postings had you lost innocent loved ones.
Keep your ramblings to yourself, if you have nothing decant to say at a terrible time like this.
@RSEWIPE :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Swamp Rat ]

Token Bird
13th Sep 2001, 14:41
nomdeplume - I realise that this is the worst terrorist atrocity of all time. I think that it is disrespectful of the dead for people like heloplt to put it down simply to 'jealousy'. It is not I who am being disrespectful. Please think before you post in future. All I'm suggesting is that the US consider addressing the cause not the symptom. This is the only way to prevent something like this happening in the future. Killing the terrorists will not prevent further terrorists arising in the future, it will occur as long as the US give the rest of the world reason to have gripes against them. It is a fact that most Americans have no clue as to the real reasons behind others' hatred for them. Heloplt's post demonstrates this. I disagree that I have to tread softly softly around Americans. They don't deserve immunity from criticism just because they lost a lot of countrymen the other day. They need to address the issues.

Hoverman - your entire post is disgusting. So we should bomb countries suspected of harbouring the terrorists, perhaps killing many innocent people along the way, to make us feel better? Do you think that killing a lot of American citizens made the terrorists feel better, even though it is the government they have the gripe with? I'm sure it did. Terrorists consider innocent civilians to be the spoils of war. Is that what the civilians in the harbouring countries would be? So explain to me why you are any better than them. As for wiping out the terrorists, as I said above, it's not going to prevent future terrorism. It's not going to be a deterrent as these people have demonstrated quite vividly that they are not afraid to die for their cause, whatever it happens to be. In fact, if civilians do get caught up in Bush's revenge, this is more likely to push people over the edge into terrorism who normally may have just kept their anti-US feelings to themselves. After all, Timothy McVeigh's bombing in Oklahoma City was a revenge attack against the FBI for killing innocent women and children at Waco.

[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]

Winston Smith
13th Sep 2001, 22:00
HugMonster, nomdeplume, and others:

I'm fed up with your kind of word-twisting:

Exactly where did I say the USA deserved this?

In my so-called "original post" (just two sentences, reproduced above by Heliport) I tried to voice my opinion that they had to expect something like that considering their own past record of barbarism, which is not at all the same thing as saying they deserved. For those still unable or unwilling to understand, I will provide a simple example: If I said to someone "You'll catch a cold if you don't wrap up warm" that certainly doesn't imply that I think they deserve to fall ill if they don't heed my advice.

Unlike a few among you (see below), I never thought that murder of innocents should be answered by killing even more innocents - which the terrorists did.

As for those deranged individuals who suggested that I "rejoiced" on hearing the terrible news, **** off. Apart from the human tragedy, how can anyone whose heart beats for aviation even remotely welcome such a desaster?


Hoverman,
America, with the support of its allies, has the fire-power to eliminate entire states, and should do so if necessary.
it's people like you that compelled me to post my "insensitive" comments (interestingly, almost no one claimed that my observation, however "nasty", was wrong in itself). But at least you agree that your attitude reduces you "to the level of those we condemn". - Oh, and why is it that the "defender of the free world" denied and still is denying the right to live in a free world to so many others?

As an aside, you might be relieved to hear that I'm not living in the UK. No need to apologize.

Cyclic Hotline
13th Sep 2001, 22:36
Tokenbird suggests;

All I'm suggesting is that the US consider addressing the cause not the symptom. This is the only way to prevent something like this happening in the future. Killing the terrorists will not prevent further terrorists arising in the future, it will occur as long as the US give the rest of the world reason to have gripes against them.

The civilised free world is aligning itself to address the cause, not the symptom. There is only one answer to heartless individuals, the cause of terrorism; who take their own lives, along with others, in the the name of ANY belief.

You do not bow and shirk from people how threaten you with death and fear. You eliminate the problem. You continue the campaign until it is complete. You renew it if the threat reappears.

The only defence against violence and death is an aggressive offence. The fear of retribution and open warfare is one of the reasons for the success of the cold war toward peace and stability.

The Nations that do not unite in the fight for peace, and harbour terrorists, should be treated in the exact same manner as the organizations and groups that are going to be eliminated.

Normal people of all nationalities, political views, races and religions abhor what has occurred. Many of these same people are held hostage to the same factions and organizations within their own countries.

The factions that have a hatred of anything American (or anything else) are a minute portion of the world's population. The minority do not represent, nor control the actions of the majority.

The use of innocent people to form a defence around them, is the domain of the coward. It is exactly the technique used by Saddam Hussin, Muammar Gaddaffi and even David Koresh. I do not recall the bombers of the US embassies, Pan-Am 103, nor any of these reprehensible actions on the 11th of September, taking any steps to ensure the safety of the innocent - they TARGETTED the innocent - that my friend, is the reality of the war that is being waged against us.

I have lived and travelled all over the world. I know the feeling of being a minority in a strange land. I have been on the receiving end of policies against my home nation and people. I understand the realities of people assembling in the name of some cause and targetting me.

I cannot believe you have the gall to advise posters to reconsider what they post. This is a debate on reality, not some utopian discussion about the rights and wrongs of the world, over coffee. This is real and is happening now.

It is not my place to dictate your opinions or views. However, I would suggest that you take yourself down to the Imperial War Museum in Lambeth and view the Holocaust exhibit that is currently showing. Understand the reality of a world that swings out of control and is not STOPPED in it's tracks. Understand the violence and fear that the world experiences when it fails to deal with, however terrible the consequences, an imbalance of evil over good.

This is the opportunity to rid the world of terrorism whilst uniting the nations and peoples affected by it. If something good might come from the horrors of the actions of 11 September, then this is it.

Vortex what...ouch!
13th Sep 2001, 22:37
Winston,

While it may be true that the US has erred in the past it was done in the overwhelming belief in that it was for the greater good. To equate that with the disgusting crimes commited by the terrorists on the 11th is insulting to all of us here.

As someone once said to me "if you have nothing adult to say shut up"

I suggest you shut up.

Freedom of speech is quite fankly wasted on some people. :mad:

TowerDog
13th Sep 2001, 23:17
Winston:

You keep digging a deeper hole for yourself and it is filling up with [email protected] [email protected]

HugMonster
14th Sep 2001, 01:07
Winston, what you said (and I quote) was:-

OneWorld22:

:
Nobody attacks the United States and gets away with it.

It's just that until now the United States got away with attacking everyone else. Like the schoolyard bully who finally discovers that violence can work both ways.


You imply that the USA has "got away" with barbarism and attacking "everyone else". Everyone? Really? And explain, if you would, how the USA's policies in, say, the Balkans, the Gulf or Afghanistan differ from the objectives of any other Western Nation?

You liken the United States to a schoolyard bully. The direct and unavoidable implication is that you feel that a schoolyard bully deserves his comeuppance. No word-twisting, no misrepresentation. Simple consequence.

And by the way, I think you're wrong, if you feel nobody disagrees with you. (Noting that you still maintain you're right). Nothing, but nothing, explains, condones, or justifies such a horrific act of barbarism.

Now go away and take your idiocy, your prejudice and your insensitivity with you.

BmPilot21
14th Sep 2001, 02:12
Unfortunately, at this tragic time, it IS appropriate to discuss US foreign policy etc. President Bush is doing so right now and deciding on his course of action. It is possible to be respectful, mourn, and also debate politics at the same time.

I am not able to make the kind of decisions that will be made by our leaders over the coming weeks/months, that is why we elect them to do so on our behalf, as they are privy to all the facts and intelligence. HOWEVER, we are entitled to have opinions and discuss aspects of it on a lower level. That is called a democracy. The action taken over the coming weeks/years will affect us ALL, especially in the aviation industry, and it's effects may last for decades. Make no mistake of the importance of the US' response, and let History be it's judge.

We MUST fight terrorism on every level. However, we all agree it must be a measured an effective response. It is interesting that every nation bar Iraq has sent its condolences - partly because of the US' reputation for revenge, and they are afraid of it. Even Afganistan are rumoured to have arrested Bin-Laden. Even Gadaffi has sent condolences.

I also think world leaders ARE truly shocked by these events. I think the terrorists actions have back-fired. Yes their mission achieved every one of their evil ambitions on the day, but they now stand alone, isolated and shunned by everyone bar Iraq.

I saw the pictures yesterday of Palestinians mourning the dead. They said they could empathise with the victims as they have suffered much. And so they have. Yes, some of their countrymen are terrorists, but so are some of NI's, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority aren't good, innocent people.

I hope that some good can come from this tragedy. It MUST. Thousands must not die in vain. It MUST bring the world together against a few evil people who are intent on death and destruction for their own warped end. I think the world's reaction will deter future terrorism. Nobody is prepared to support them at this time, and hopefully the terrorists will see this and think twice. They are alone and we must take this oppurtunity to defeat them while we have this unprecedented opportunity to bring the world together against them.

Imran Khan was interviewed on TV and said:
"While there can be no excuse for this barbarism, and we wholly condemn the actions of the terrorists, some thought must be given as to WHY people are driven to taking their own lives to attack America. What is causing such all-consuming hatred, and how can we address this".

These people are not mentally ill, or 'nuts', they believe in what they are doing. This is one of the levels on which that we must fight terrorism. If we can take away the hatred and the motive, there would be no terrorists. I know seemingly impossible, but we must try. This is ALONGSIDE more direct methods to deter them (security, bringing the guilty to justice, political pressure and sanctions, and military action if necessary).

If we can bring world leaders to justice (Pinochet / Milosovic), if we can have a peace settlement in NI (a LONG way still to go I know), then we CAN do this.

Paterbrat
14th Sep 2001, 06:51
It would appear that there are many 'terrorist' organisations throughout the world, each with it's own particular cause, however there has in recent years been an unprecedented networking of these organisations with cross training and helping of one another.
They have generaly in common a psycopathic ability to use any means to achieve their ends, generaly violent and deadly. It is now time for all people throughout the world to unite, co-operate, transcend national boundries and politics and realise that 'civilisation' is subverted and destroyed by such elements. They should be hunted down brought to justice and either shut away from the society they would destroy, or indeed be destroyed by those they would harm, in an act of self defence.
It is unfortunate that when faced by one who is prepared to expend his or her life for their cause, there sometimes is no other way to defend oneself except by destoying the would be destroyer.
The nihilist extremists who have perpetrated this latest massive and bloody outrage have indeed knocked on the doors of Armageddon. Their act will undoubtedly set in motion events which will have far reaching consequences which may well engulf us all. It can only be hoped that everybody decides for the immediate future anyway that there already exist mechanisms, imperfect though they may be, for attempting to solve the worlds ills. The idea of power by terror and mass murder of innocent bystanders is not one of them. Those who practice it and the countries that condone it should be left in no doubt about that.
I believe that process is about to begin.

old_cross_bound
14th Sep 2001, 07:41
Winston Smith,

I hear what you are saying. These spineless cowards are just twisting your words. It's their way of glorifying themselves and stroking their own spiritually lost ego's yet one more time. They look pathetic while you're making sense whether anyone agree's with you or not.

old_cross_bound
14th Sep 2001, 07:45
Paterbrat,

Good post. That about covers it.

Cyclic Hotline
14th Sep 2001, 09:11
I'm sorry OCB. Exactly what part of Winston Smith's post are you in accord with?

You've lost me on this one.

[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: Cyclic Hotline ]

Dark Knight
14th Sep 2001, 09:23
Let me tell you about my friend, the American people. "They are a vast and quarrelsome family; a family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. the're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae, a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.
The're wealthy; too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, they walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. They are fundamentally decent, though — peace-loving and compassionate. They struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And they are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
Some people — you, perhaps — think that any or all of this makes them weak. You're mistaken. They are not weak. Indeed, thry are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.
Yes, the're in pain now. They are in mourning and we are in shock. They are still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make themselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.
Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, indeed, the history of the world. You've bloodied them as they have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making them bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit themthis hard, the last time anyone brought them such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, they are righteous in their outrage, terrible in their force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, they will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.
In days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation; fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. They will go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
You see, there is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of their character is seldom understood by people who don't know them well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans they will weep, as Americans they will mourn, and as Americans, they will rise in defence of all that they cherish.
Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach the Americans and Us. It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred.
If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're about. You don't know what you just started.
But you're about to learn.

President Bush quoted from verse four of Psalm 23: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me." In his statement, evangelist Dr. Billy Graham quoted from verse 10 of Psalm 46: "Be still and know that I am God."

Those passages apply to the here-and-now. I found another that might offer guidance to America's leaders in the days ahead. Each night in September, I am reading the Psalm that corresponds to that day. Verses five and six of Psalm 11, the one for that "day of infamy," say that "The LORD trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hateth. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest – this shall be the portion of their cup."

Sounds like good counsel for America's military and political leaders right about now."

nomdeplume
14th Sep 2001, 11:24
Bmpilot21
Good, thought-provoking post.
Nobody suggests that we shouldn't discuss what the US should do in reaction to this cowardly attack.
It was the reaction of Winston Smith (especially) and Token Bird to the attack and to our American friends on various thrads on this forum which shocked and disgusted so many of us.

As to the attackers.
Whatever grievance is felt towards the US in some parts of the world, nothing but nothing can justify what occurred this week.
Anyone who can do such a thing, whether as hijacker or organiser, is either mentally deranged or thoroughly evil - or a mixture of both.
Those of us who have read what Bin Laden has said (and done) in the past can judge for ourselves. The man believes in the total destruction of the US, and all it stands for, by any means and has called on 'all who seek their reward in heaven' to kill American citizens whenever and wherever they can.

Old Cross Bound
Are you the same OCB who has espoused Christian principles on this forum in the past?
I'm a Christian, and believe in what Jesus taught. Do you think that Jesus, who died on the Cross, would share Winston's view that the US bully has got their come uppance?
That's not the Jesus I know.

twistgrip
14th Sep 2001, 13:02
Mmmmmmmm........

Have you thought what the result would have been if one of the targets had been a nuclear power station?

Are you sure that the increased security measures etc etc will prevent another attack of this nature at some time in the future?

Until last Tuesday I thought I was old enough, experienced enough and therefore wise enough to listen to rational argument and respond in like manner.

This time I think the American President has got it absolutely correct - ".......and those that harbor them"

America should declare war on the country proved to have been sheltering these killers, give sufficient time for all interested parties to get the hell out and then go in extremely hard.

Otherwise, one day, all our rational and moralistic and GOOD people equating NI (or elsewhere) with this recent escalation may find themselves slowly dying from radiation poisoning - or whatever. And what the hell is the point of that?

Of course the military action will be inconclusive and of course there's a good chance the main perpetrators will escape and of course more innocent people will die, which in itself is terrible - but a line will have been drawn in the sand. You shelter and harbor these killers at your real peril. Not peril to your lives but peril to your powerbase, position and aims.

And as a result of this action America and the West will have to prepare for a long period of threat - but a containable threat.
Anyway, what have we been living with these past years?

It's either that or everyone say sorry, shake hands and promise to live in peace.

Token Bird
14th Sep 2001, 14:50
It is evident from the people who are attacking me over my posts, that you either haven't read or can't read my posts. I suggest you do. If you think that it's faithful to the memory of the several thousand people who died on Tuesday to act the way you are then you are the sick ones. Someone said that now is not the time to address the issues. I can't think of a better time. Is there a statutory period of mourning that you require before starting to try and address the problem? If so, how long is this period? Until the next terrorist attack? Then comes another statutory mourning period and the issues will still not get addressed. I do not believe that I am being insensitive to people's feelings by suggesting that we address the causes of terrorism rather than just wait until thousands of people die, then go and kill the terrorists that did it. It won't stop more terrorists coming to the fore. This is common sense. Something which the vast majority of you don't appear to have. Now I've spelt it out in plain English for the 3rd time, if you don't understand by now then I don't know what I can do,

TB

Capt PPRuNe
14th Sep 2001, 16:58
Firstly let me make my statement. My sympathies lie at the moment with the families and friends of the innocent people who have been massacred and maimed by these inhuman beasts following their sick indoctrination and subhuman lack of respect for humanity. The evil spawn who attacked our colleagues and used their aircraft to mount a cowardly attack on innocent civilians going about their daily work do not deserve one iota of consideration by ANY decent and civilised human being.

There can be absolutely NO justification whatsoever for these atrocities and for anyone to turn this into a debate about comeuppance or trying to make sense out of the carnage by saying that America should look at its forign policies in the Middle East should be ashamed of themselves. I am utterly disgusted by the self righteous types that are quick to say on one hand how they are shocked but on the other hand they had it coming or words to that effect.

This website exists primarily for professional pilots and others engaged in our business and who may have an interest in it and is not a free for all website for religious nutters or fanatical extremists who want to smother us with their ramblings. This forum in particular allows us to express our thoughts on topics which are not appropriate in the other areas of the website and I have always been an advocate of allowing people to have their say but with the limitations that they do not, in my opinion, break any UK laws or my own moral beliefs that blanket racism, of any group, is not acceptable.

There is not one country, people, religion or whatever that can look back at its past and believe that it is lily white in everything it has ever done or preached. To continue to read here some individuals try to put a reason on the inhumane attacks on democracy and civilisation is extremely annoying. At least we get the opprtunity to respond in a dignified and reasoned manner here.

I put it to those individuals that try to make sense of the mass, deliberate murder of innocent civilians goig about their normal business, that they are only using this tragedy as an excuse to air their own political beliefs under a veil of hypocracy. If they are going to say it then do so clearly. It is my understanding of their hypocritcal comments that they believe that the USA should abandon its policy of supporting Israel in the Middle East and that they should leave them to fend for themselves amongst these same barbarians that perpetrated these murders.

To make those veiled statements in the shadow of these attacks is totally unjustified and goes to show how well the misinformation and manipulation of the media has been carried out over the last few years. Not everyone is as gullible as the media would like to believe and many can see through the constant and repetitve cry of how nasty the Israelis are but see the manipulation through the likes of Arafat who pleads through the heartstrings of the gullible that he is totally subjugated but at the same time incites the intifada where children are encouraged, no, taught, to be in the front line.

No one has yet mentioned the schools, yes schools, for young children that indoctrinate them in some teachings of Islam that all infidels are the devil and to die as a martyr, taking out as many infidels as possible is not only acceptabe but will be rewarded in the afterlife. There can be no justification for any people or religion that encourages and indoctrinates young children to grow up and believe that they can carry out attacks and mass murder as we have seen in the last week and anyone who argues against that deserves the wrath that will befall them ultimately.

I, in no way believe that the majority of Muslims believe in the preachings of their more extremist, fundamental leaders, whether political or religious and I am sure that the majority were as sickened as the rest of us were. I do believe though, that until those leaders that allow and even encourage the indoctrination in hatred and glorious murder in the name of their religion are brought to justice then we will have to be on our guard to protect our liberties and freedoms. Wherever they are in the world, whoever provides them with a place to operate should be made outcasts and forced to bring their own countries into line with the decency of good humanity.

When we talk about civilised society, we have to include the rights of everyone to have their own beliefs and unfortunately, many of those governments and leaders denouncing the mass murders we all witnessed appear to be doing so with the aim of deflecting the likelyhood of their two faced stance exposed because of the hypocritical lack of basic civilised freedoms in their own back yards.

There is no justification, none whatsoever for the mass murder in NY, Washington and Pittsburg. On behalf of my friends in the aviation world I repeat my condolences and sympathies for the families and friends of the those caught in the horror of the events on the 11th September. There are citizens of many countries and of different faiths who were murdered on Tuesday in the USA and I am sure that the majority of us lend our support to our American cousins in coming to terms with the after effects and in bringing the groups and the supporters of this attack to justice.

Feeton Terrafirma
14th Sep 2001, 17:57
Danny,
Thats a very hard post to follow, except to say, well said.

Flying Lawyer
14th Sep 2001, 18:10
Token Bird
You claim that you're not insensitive to people's feelings.
How curious then that, within minutes of this evil atrocity, your response to a post by an American pilot, who was obviously and understandably distressed and in a state of shock, should conclude with the words: "Please get your heads out your own arses!"
Call me old-fashioned, but that's not what I regard as sensitivity to people's feelings.

neutral99
One small point: The contributor's username is 'Token Bird', not 'Token Turd'.
Finger trouble? ;)

I'd rather
14th Sep 2001, 18:59
BmPilot21: you have articulated almost everything I wanted to say on this post.

I think there is some confusion on this thread between JUSTIFICATION and CAUSATION.

What happened on Tuesday can never be justified - of course it can't, and I don't think you'll find anyone on whole of Pprune who thinks it could.

What happened does, however, have causes, and IF those causes can be found then maybe, just maybe, we can stop this turning into a self-perpetuating spiral of hatred which will result in the deaths of many more innocents.

Somehow we must find a way forward - a way that means no more innocent people will suffer. That,to me, would be the most fitting memorial to those who died on Tuesday.

TowerDog
14th Sep 2001, 19:17
Well spoken Danny:

I agree with your sensible post.
The part about schools brain washing children hit the nail on the head.

Having lived too many years in the Middle-East, on both sides of the various borders I have seen just that. Kids learning to hate.
Kids that never smile.

All in the name of religion.

HugMonster
14th Sep 2001, 21:07
I'd rather, I appreciate that there is a big difference between Justification and Causation. I wonder if it's not somewhat bigger than you appreciate?

US policy in the Middle East (or anywhere else) did not cause these atrocities. You may argue that the string of events becomes a cause, but nothing, nothing beyond their own fanaticism made those suicidal, murderous, subhuman animals stab and kill cabin crew to get access to flight decks, and then deliberately crash the aircraft into major buildings, killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people.

To call that a cause is to argue that child #1 was caused to hit child #2 by having his or her hair pulled.

We all have free will. To claim "cause" is to deny your own freedom of choice, and freedom of action. It is to make a victim of yourself. "He made me do it" - rubbish. When it eventually comes down to it, you cannot be made to do anything against your will. Even if you have a gun put to your head and are told to do something particular, you still have a choice. You may not like the consequences, but you have that choice.

One of the aspects of this that has particularly upset me is putting myself in the place of one of the pilots whose cabin crew were being so callously killed with razorblades. To open the flight deck door to save them, he opens the way to this further obscenity. Yet who among us could sit tight, knowing that the girls with whom he has worked for however long it is are having their throats cut behind him in the cabin?

The cynicism and callousness of the hijackers is quite extraordinary. Such a method of taking over the aircraft was planned in advance. It was no moment of anger, of frustration at not being able to get through the door. Whoever planned that is, in my humble opinion, not fit to live.

TowerDog
14th Sep 2001, 21:34
HugMonster:

Thanks for expressing my exact feelings.

On this one we are in 100% agreement.

Will see you in the pub one day over a beer,
we won't have much to argue about....

I'd rather
14th Sep 2001, 21:59
Hugmonster, I agree with what you have posted. The atrocities committed are almost beyond belief and have affected me greatly - I cannot bear to think what those people on the aircraft went through, nor what the loved ones of those who are missing are going through now. Nothing I say is intended to diminish the horror at what happened, or the pain and the rage we feel.

Please understand that I am not seeking IN ANY WAY to excuse what the terrorists did and I agree that they should receive justice for what they did. I also agree with your point about free will - these people had free will, they were not somehow forced to do what they did; they had a choice and they chose to do evil.

Their fanaticism has turned these people into monsters and they are, I would say, beyond human understanding. What I think we can seek to understand is what breeds such fanaticism - why do people end up as monsters? The answer no doubt goes back generations, resulting in the sort of brainwashing of a whole new generation referred to in others' posts on this thread. What I am concerned with is how we can stop the cycle of hatred.

No more innocent lives lost - that is my single most important concern. Justice is important. Remembrance is important. We need to find a way to go forward and make a peaceful world - so that those who died on Tuesday did not die in vain. Depending on the way we handle this now, we could make peace their legacy.

Too idealistic? Maybe. But then, Huggy, you've always struck me as a bit of an idealist yourself...

Winston Smith
14th Sep 2001, 23:59
Cyclic Hotline, You do not bow and shirk from people how threaten you with death and fear. You eliminate the problem. You continue the campaign until it is complete. You renew it if the threat reappears.

The only defence against violence and death is an aggressive offence. The fear of retribution and open warfare is one of the reasons for the success of the cold war toward peace and stability.

The Nations that do not unite in the fight for peace, and harbour terrorists, should be treated in the exact same manner as the organizations and groups that are going to be eliminated.I can't help noticing that the terrorists must have had thoughts along very similar lines.


neutral99, Do you seriously think now is the time to "address the issues?"So would you rather wait until after a few more terrorist atrocities have been perpetrated?


HugMonster, Now go away and take your idiocy, your prejudice and your insensitivity with you.Exactly what prejudice?


Dark Knight, This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit them this hard, the last time anyone brought them such abrupt and monumental pain.Yes, it seems I can remember something about killing hundred thousands of civilians, and aircraft were also involved. However, I wonder if the pilots would have been readily willing to accept certain death if it had been necessary to fulfill their mission.


pax domina,

No, I'm not "backpedalling", I'm just being more precise to eliminate any possible misunderstandings which might arise from my first two-sentence-post. But I have said that often enough.

No, I did not expect that kind of reaction; it gives me reason to worry: So many people whom I had thought to be more sensible trying to put out a fire by pouring more fuel into it!


Token Bird,

let me simply say "Thank you" for that post.


Capt PPRuNe,

Obviously I do think that it might not be a bad idea for the USA to change its military and covert political involvement in the rest of the world. I don't see what this has to do with hypocrisy at all.

Wedge
15th Sep 2001, 01:10
Danny, I sincerely hope that you did not include me among the "self righteous types that are quick to say on one hand how they are shocked but on the other hand they had it coming or words to that effect". I have edited my comments in case they could have been interpreted (incorrectly) in that way.

I have just returned from the American Embassy to sign the condolence book and pay tribute to those who died on Tuesday.

I think you can distinguish between a claim that something can be justified and to say that there were reasons why it happened. This was utterly unjustified, but there must be reasons why it happened, and we have to understand them. I don't think Danny that to try to examine the reasons why this happened in any way at all should be seen as saying that this was justified. You have yourself talked about Middle Eastern politics in your post. On monday night I was outraged to see pictures on television of Palestinian children of nursery school age not being taught nursery rhymes but being taught to sing 'Death to the Heathen Jews'. The following day we saw what kind of a world those teachings create.

There are religious fanatics who hate America for many reasons. There are liberals who take issue with American foreign policy, citing examples where innocent civilians have suffered at the hands of the Americans and those that America supports. America as we all know does support the Israelis in the Middle East. Perhaps whoever planned this obscenity did it in the basis of that alone, and could not care less about American foreign policy in other areas. I don't know.

All I know that is on Tuesday the world changed and I have gone though a wide range of emotions - shock, outrage, sadness, depression, and also hope and the warmth of feeling that I got from seeing so many people coming together in the face of adversity.

Americans thought that this kind of thing could not happen on their soil. On Tuesday they, we all, realised that America is not invulnerable.

[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: Wedge ]

The Guvnor
15th Sep 2001, 06:28
At this moment in time, there is no proof that Muslims were responsible for the attacks on Tuesday. When the Federal Building in Oklahoma City was bombed, bin Laden was blamed - but it turned out to have been perpetrated by a WASP called Timothy McVeigh. Yet around the world, Muslims are being attacked simply because they are Muslims - exactly the sort of behaviour we saw outside schools in Ulster recently.

This comes from the Australian and was selected because Australia is about as far away from the events in New York and Washington as it's possible to get. Unfortunately, on this thread and elsewhere, it has been my misfortune to read similar sentiments from others.

Attacks stir racist venom
By Natalie O'Brien, David Nason, Luke McIlveen and Staff reporters
September 14, 2001

ISLAMIC communities around the country have been abused, attacked and had their mosques firebombed and smeared with faeces in a frightening backlash over the US terrorist attacks.

Schoolchildren have been stoned, women harassed and hate-mail sent via fax and email as Muslims become a target for public anger over the carnage in the US.

Talkback callers have jammed the switchboards of radio programs expressing racist sentiments, prompting the head of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Amjad Mehboob, to plead for calm.

"People need to use their heads and act sensibly," he said.

"We are asking Australians to act rationally, particularly in relation to Australian Muslim communities, who also condemn these acts."

Many people fear the nation faces a wave of racial and religion-based violence.

A hotline has been set up for people to report racist attacks.

Faeces was smeared across the walls of a Perth mosque and dirt was thrown on the steps of another.

Anti-Islamic graffiti has been scrawled in Sydney and police are investigating a firebomb attack on an Arabic church in the city's west.

The Islamic School in Adelaide has been closed for security reasons.

Meanwhile, Victorian police are investigating a series of anti-American and anti-Semitic graffiti daubed on buildings across Melbourne, including slogans that read: "Victoy (sic) of Islam" and "Death for Jew + Christ".

Police have increased patrols as security is stepped up at Islamic schools and mosques.

Queensland Islamic Council chairman Sultan Deen said Muslims in Brisbane have been repeatedly harassed since the US attacks.

"There's a lot of backlash there and there really shouldn't be," he said. "We have had numerous threats and phone calls, abuse has been hurled. There's been phone calls to Islamic women and abuse thrown at them."

Political and religious leaders called for calm. NSW Premier Bob Carr appealed for people to reject hateful language.

Muslims have been warned to take extra precautions and Mr Mehboob advised them not to make statements or become involved in arguments.

"We are lucky nothing more serious has happened," Mr Mehboob said.

It was incredible such racist behaviour against the Islamic community could be taking place in Australia, he said.

In a public expression of sympathy at Sydney's Lakemba mosque yesterday old men with greying beards knelt beside youths in baseball caps to pray for the thousands killed in the US. The Mufti of Australia, Taj el-Hilali, led the congregation through a prayer for peace, quoting from the Koran: "Allah condemns those who are involved in acts of transgression.

"We are feeling our sadness for victims of this horrific human tragedy."

Lebanese Moslem Association vice-president Keysar Trad said his people were opposed to all terrorism.

"Please do not blame us is what I would say to the Australian people who believe Islam is responsible," said.

"This is the time we should be working together to offer material and tangible assistance. This is not the time to create more division."

The association has taken a collection from members to help to rescuers and families of the dead in the US.

Mr Trad said he hoped the crisis could bring the two cultures together.

"There is nothing to be gained by fighting among ourselves in this time of tragedy."

TowerDog
15th Sep 2001, 09:57
Yeah Guvnor, there is no proof that "Muslims" were behind this.

Muslims are the folks that belive in Islam.
Most of them are peaceful peons and innocent little rag-heads.

Some of the "Muslims" however have spent too much time in the sun and have had their brains fried beyond hope.
They seem to be fighting a holly war all the time. Against the "Enemies of Islam".
(The 5000 victims in NY, PA and VI could probably not tell Islam from Hinduism, yet they were victims of crazed loonies that uh, happened to be Muslims.)


Ref. Tuesday's horror attacks.
If you don't think they were "Muslims", hmm, Guv, I have a bridge to sell ya...

No, I ain't got no proof yet, but if it walks like a duck, squacks like a duck and [email protected] like a duck...

Hooking Fell
15th Sep 2001, 10:12
The issue of perpetrators and those who assist and harbour them is more complex than meets the eye. Don't current investigations suggest that (some) of the suicide pilots were trained at American Flying Schools (no doubt owned and managed by "patriots")?

Celtic Emerald
15th Sep 2001, 15:53
While I sympathise with the Americans in their grief, despise this act of terrorism & kiiling innocent people and am aware that nothing can justify an act like this I do think we need to question why so many people and nations despise America and are willing to die for this hatred.

While I know that I have alot to be thankful to America for i.e. that I & most fellow Europeans do not have to live under a Nazi/fascist/racist/communist regimes and I despise fundamentalism I have not always agreed with American foreign policy, particularly their backing of Israel, their sanctions in Iraq (which incidentally affect the ordinary innocent people the most while Saddam & his cronies continue to wine & dine and live off the fat of the land, the fact that Saddam was not taken out which I am aware was due a political agreement with the Saudi's for one). Although I commend America in waiting to retaliate I fear already they are repeating some mistakes such as imposing sanctions of food and medical supplies against Afganistan and it's starving people who are repressed by this evil Taliban regime, have nothing to do with it's policies but are bound by this stance to suffer the most. If America intends to repeat it's habit of blanket bombing (which won't work in Afganistan), collateral damage, they can be sure to harden fundamentalist attitudes and escalate tensions creating more Osama Bin Ladins. Americans need to learn that the bomb and the bullet don't always work and that the killings of innocent people can never be justified in the process of weeding out these terrorists but a combination of espionage, diplomacy and directly targeting individuals who are responsible may help to stop this cycle of hatred and terrorism rather than adopting methods that will inflame rather than quench the situation and result in the deaths of innocent Arabs who lives, rights and beliefs are just as precious as those of the so-called em 'civilised' countries. (Another patronising insult no doubt)

Again my sympathies to all the people who have suffered in this terrible tragedy

Emerald (sorry I've run out of time as usual)

126.9
15th Sep 2001, 16:40
The tragedy is extreme
beyond words;
The remedy
great cause for concern.

Disaster can only be avoided by Americans now taking a proactive course of action, instead of the emotionally-charged, and understandably reactive route which they presently find themselves on!

Binoculars
15th Sep 2001, 18:14
There are lots of things I don't understand, chiefly why everybody on this thread appears to be talking and nobody listening.

I've just read through the whole thread twice, and I am forced to the conclusion that if all who have contributed (except the "nuke 'em now" brigade) were to sit down over a drink and discuss this we would all be on basically the same wavelength. There has been not the remotest hint that I can see of anybody trying to justify this horrendous act. I am no friend or supporter of Winston Smith, in fact I have ignored him since I described him as being one of an extremely small number of people on Pprune I would refuse to drink with. (OCB is the only other one I can think of, and the fact that he has agreed in his usual offensive way with Winston here does not put us on the same side).

Winston’s views on this occasion were provocatively stated, appallingly timed and completely insensitive. I also suspect that as usual his purpose was to prove himself an independent thinker by provoking outrage; not a tactic that I suspect any of us could deny having used in our youth. But none of that changes my opinion that the messenger is being shot here. His last comeback to Cyclic Hotline's well thought-out argument, that the terrorists probably had exactly the same feelings, was an undeniably well-aimed barb.

Danny, I believe you overreacted and played a completely false card here;

I have always been an advocate of allowing people to have their say but with the limitations that they do not, in my opinion, break any UK laws or my own moral beliefs that blanket racism, of any group, is not acceptable.

The suggestion that there is a reason why some people hate America is not the utterance of a religious nutter. It is not suggesting the Americans deserved what they got, and it is most certainly not racism.

I also don't understand how HugMonster's oft-repeated repugnance towards state-sponsored killing does in fact have a tangible limit.

Whoever planned that is, in my humble opinion, not fit to live.

I agree entirely Huggy, but I’m a little confused as to your thinking process. Where was the line crossed?

Wedge
15th Sep 2001, 18:44
Well said Bins - that was what I was trying to say without being accused of 'justifying' this atrocity.

There were reasons why it happened and we must understand what they were - that I believe Danny is where you over reacted in your post, when you accused people (and possibly me I don't know) on this thread of justifying this act by attempting to find reasons for it.

Something has driven these evil people to carry out this evil act - if the response from America is excessive now they will only breed more people willing to do the same, and will run the risk of it happening again. By saying that American foreign policy was partly the cause of this act does not mean, infer or imply any way that it was justified. In saying this I am certainly not making any political point, I am stating a fact.

Paterbrat
15th Sep 2001, 18:54
Binoc's you having read the thread twice, and presumably the origional posting that provoked the whole thing, I am surprised that you are surprised.
Since Winston had obviously got a fairly sharp reaction, as well he should have, and as you seem to have agreed that his posting was completely lacking in any sensitivity, compassion, or sense of apropriatness, it would seem the general reaction to his attempts to justify his first post was met with yet more opposition.
Some fairly succinct posts by helioport and hugmonster did actualy point out how and why the general drift of his origional posting was so inflamatory, and that he had indeed provoked an adverse reaction. Shooting the messenger was in fact what I personaly felt like doing when I read his first post and his second thread here simply seemed to me a rather poor attempt to justify what he had said.
Yes, I would say that most people here were in agreement, concur with your aversion to his company over an ale, and am also highly doubt whether Winston would have been invited to sit and chat over a beer about it with the majority of the contributors. Danny I don't think missed the point at all.
I would think that the majority of the world does not condone what happened, that there are people who are prepared to go to these lengths to achieve and publicise their hatreds is sadly evident in many parts of the world by many extremist organisations. It is more than likely that this was a co-ordinated effort by some of them and hopefully it will stir the world into some positive steps to endevour to eliminate those who would use these methods of comletely random blanket violence that seem to specificaly target mainly innocent bystanders. Yes we hope the US will act with care and due regard and indeed it appears that they are doing just that.

whats_it_doing_now?
15th Sep 2001, 19:17
I think America will have to think long and hard about the retribution it is planning. Personally I would love to see the persons responsible to get a thorough kicking, but as ever, a great number of entirely innocent people will be brought into it. The worst thing is, is that this is a terrorist that doesn't have an identity, and there will always be someone willing to return whatever retribution is made. These terrorists have nothing to lose and lots of glory to gain in death. The fact that they will stoop so low to achieve their victories makes them hard to beat. All the Star Wars technology you can afford doesn't seem to stop a determined man with a pen-knife and no regard for human life.
The US, on the other hand is a very visible target, the liberties that make it great also make it an easy target, and it has an awful lot to lose. The Western World needs to play a very smart game to win this, and being trigger happy right now isn't nescessarily the best move.

TikkiRo
15th Sep 2001, 19:23
Firstly as with everyone else, I send my condolences to anyone who has any personal experience in this tradegy in any shape or form.

As there's been SO many messages about this event, I haven't managed to read them all, so forgive me if perhaps I'm saying anything out of place here.

Living in N. Ireland for 40 of my 42 years, I'm pretty well versed with our own brand of terrorism here in the shape of the IRA, and can I firstly say that in my opinion NO terrorist has any sidings with any religion - they may use that as a means to get some support, but you can no more say these guys were doing this in the name of Islam, than you can say the IRA are doing what they do in the name of Catholicism - just because that might be the religion they're born into certainly doesn't make them paid-up members.
Most terrorists do what they do out of some blind hatred for whoever they're attacking.

My second point is that I truly hope that Pres. Bush doesn't take any lessons from our own government (paticularly the current PM) who promptly allows top IRA men, who have been known activists and who have between them been involved in some of the worst atrocities seen in the UK, to become MPs. Not only that but to have then put Martin McGuinness in a position of Head of Education defies belief. Any terrorist watching the situation here probably feels that no matter what the outcome, some day they'll be recognised as 'Peace' heroes and given prime positions in the US government or elsewhere. Let's face it - if you look at this province at least, terrorism pays and pays extremely well - not only do you get loads of money, (but can still claim benefits because nobody's going to tangle with you) but also you get invited to the US to wine and dine with their PResident etc. I have to wonder if the IRA had pulled off this particular stunt just exactly how the US would have reacted to it then, in comparison to how our government has 'dealt with' the IRA.

Forgive the anger, but sometimes even as a Christian, I find it very hard to see justice being whitewashed and given no court when it comes to such issues. If action had been taken against our terrorists in the early years, perhaps many, many more lives would have been saved - although I suspect in the current climate you would always have a breeding ground for them.

I trust and pray though that true justice will be seen to be done this side of heaven, and that those who have and are still going through this terrible tradegy may find some comfort from their friends worldwide at this horrendously difficult time for them.

TR

HugMonster
15th Sep 2001, 19:33
OK. This may seem a little confused. If so, you'll have to forgive me as I've just woken up (nightmail last night).

My opposition to capital punishment is not absolute, and never has been. I am not a supporter of killing someone simply because they killed someone else.

The Bible (if that is an authority) states "An eye for an eye", but that is given as the maximum penalty. Jesus modified that.

Capital punishment is one penalty that cannot be rectified if it is later discovered there has been a mistake. It's pretty darned final. There have been many mistakes.

However...
I feel that there are some crimes that put the perpetrator so far outside humanity, that are so evil, that death is the only way to deal with them. Some people, if imprisoned, would only act as a spur to others to follow them, to try to release them. Bin Laden (if he is the perpetrator) has too many blind followers who would do anything to get him out.

In this category of crime I would include, for example, the Nazis... but I'm not sure how I would define it further. Simple "mass murder" does not cover it, but "crimes against humanity" would.

As for the imposition of the death sentence, it would not be in the power of one nation, one judiciary, but I would like to expand, possibly, the powers of the War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague.

Sorry if this is a little confused, but I had a long phone conversation in the middle of writing it as well...

Davaar
15th Sep 2001, 20:59
Winston:
I gather that English is not your mother tongue. If that is so, and even if it is not, you use it remarkably well. It is clear, though, that your irony in the earlier "Mugabe" references misled at least some readers, and irony always does carry the risk of misinterpretation.

I rather wish you had not got yourself into the present situation.
_____________________________________________
“However, I wonder if the pilots would have been readily willing to accept certain death if it had been necessary to fulfill their mission.”
____________________________________________

The captain of Enola Gay at Hiroshima was Colonel (later Brigadier General) Paul W Tibbets, USAAF. In 1942 as CO of the 340th Bomb Squadron, 97th Bomb Group, USAAF, he flew on the first B-17 raid and on 24 later raids over occupied Europe. The losses of the US 5th Air Force attest to the courage of all its members, and the skill and good luck of the survivors. He flew a further 5 bombing missions into North Africa under British command. Thereafter came other missions in the Sahara area. In 1943 he returned to the USA for some 400 hours of test flying on the B-29. He held inter alia the Distinguished Service Cross, Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal, Purple Heart, and Legion of Merit. He fought a fighting war.

One of the observers at Nagasaki was Group Captain Leonard (later Lord) Cheshire, VC, DSO and two bars, DFC, RAF. That list of decorations speaks for itself, but note in passing that as Pathfinder and Master Bomber on one night raid over Germany he made his first flight ever in a long-range P-51 Mustang lent by the Americans, which he flew at low level over the target area directing the bomber stream as it flew overhead. Any comment on his combat career is an impertinence, really.

One cannot fairly impute to either officer any unwillingness to accept the risk of death in the course of duty.

They (and others in like situation in the forces of all nations engaged) were in a war. They were not mass murderers.

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Davaar ]

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Davaar ]

nomdeplume
15th Sep 2001, 23:11
TikkiRo
It was bad enough having to bear the disgusting spectacle of Ian Paisley trying to hijack yesterday's parliamentary proceedings to make wholly misleading political points about terrorism in the 6 counties of N.I.
Regarding him, as I do, as a personification of evil (aggravated by his wholly false claims to be a Christian), I expected no better.

Paisley, like you, tried to give the impression that all the terrorism, hatred and religious bigotry in N.I. was one-sided.
(No mention of Protestant/Loyalist terrorists/atrocities, I note. :rolleyes: )
Thinking people stopped believing that some time ago.

Please don't devalue this thread by doing the same thing. There is simply no comparison.

In other circumstances, I'd answer your other points. But, this is not the time.

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: nomdeplume ]

126.9
16th Sep 2001, 00:24
Mr TIKKIRO,

I'm saddenned to disagree with you; but based on the facts, there is no other option. Your motives in your speech are most agreeable, however uneducated. Clearly, you are a loyalist or protestant or non-catholic or anti-IRA or some or all of the above. That is your right. However, when one does more than verbalise on the motivation or aims of the phenominon known as terrorism, one finds it even more frightening than the recent (apparent) attack on the USA. I say apparent, because this is the most popular interperetation at present. IMHO, this attack stretches further than the borders of the most powerful and naive nation on earth. However, the primary aims and targets of these terrorists have been achieved, not in the downing of buildings and killing of innocent children, women and men; but in the broadcasting of these images every 30 seconds on worldwide television. Let's not shoot each other down in the name of our own personal and regional battles. Let us rather unite in the name of protecting the innocent! In this manner, we will all find our own argument rather petty, and perhaps strive to be more tolerant of the catholics/protestants/arabs/blacks/whites/roast beefs/frogs/jigaboos/nips/spicks/krauts etc. And hopefully of ourselves.

Whirlybird
16th Sep 2001, 01:04
There are governments, which make mistakes, and most of which are hated by someone or other. There are ordinary people, wherever they live, who just want to get on with their lives. And some of these people can only see their own hatred, or a government, or a cause - and not what they're doing to ordinary people just like them when they react to that. They have tunnel vision. They can't see the whole picture. That's why, and how, they can become terrorists.

But most of us are pilots. We have to see the whole picture; we're trained to do so. So surely we can all see the fallacy in terrorists' thinking - that killing ordinary people for what their governments do is always wrong and achieves nothing.

Or are some PPRuNers allowing their anger to prevent them from thinking clearly?

whats_it_doing_now?
16th Sep 2001, 01:39
Interesting listening to radio 5 live this evening. They were discussing media coverage of the attrocities, how Bush has performed amongst other things. Something that was mentioned was a atatement by Saddam Hussain, possibly the most sensible thing he has ever said. He spoke of understanding of the american grief, and asked them to retalliate 'from wisdom and not from passion'. I hope that is what happens, this enemy have no cities to attack and only the innocent will suffer from an all out offensive.
I do think that there is an element of political posturing going on at the moment, and flexing of military muscles. Apparently the american military is looking for an oil tanker to send to diego garcia. I'm sure they don't have to proclaim such a requirement, but it is propaganda that they know afghanistan is paying attention to.

Paterbrat
16th Sep 2001, 03:01
The act carried out was so extreme and so massive that it has impinged on all our lives. Most of us will be spared the pain of bereavment felt by the thousands of mothers fathers sisters brothers husbands wives sons daughters and friends of the victims who were smashed to pieces, burned to death with jet fuel or who threw themselves in agony from windows. We didn't have to sit and watch as hostesses with knives at their neck were used as levers to pry out cockpit crews, or as cockpit crews have our throats slit by a small group of people whose hate is so strong that they have happily killed so many without regard. But be assured every single one of us will however have to live with the consequences.
The effects will be many, the economic implications ominous for wide sectors of industry worldwide, unemployment for perhaps millions. The possibility even of uncontained war.
The efforts of just a minority of people who feel bound by no moral compunctions will reach out and touch every one of us, none of us can avoid it.
By tolerating, by sympathising, by looking the other way, we have allowed these people to utilise and abuse the freedoms our society has been so careful to nurture.
The United States is going to do something about the massive assault upon it. The greater the co-operation it recieves in selectively persuing the small groups that persue these extreme measures the less likely that it will feel compelled to strike out blindly.
It has to be obvious to everyone that this is something that we all have to co-operate in and speak with one voice on, for not to do so is to encourage these groups that they can get away with these methods.
They are anarchists, dealers in terror and death agents of destruction. They do not care who is killed or hurt or maimed in their own narrow and extremist views.
Not to utterly condemn them is to aid them, not to totaly support their suppression is to aid them, not to actively participate in their aprehension is to help them.
Every one of us should be thinking of what we personaly can do to help capture, contain, or eradicate them, or support whoever is prepared to try to do so, before they harm all of us further than they have done already

sistern
16th Sep 2001, 03:46
Quite right nomdeplume & 126.9

I chose to live in NI. The unfortunate thing is that a very large number of people here would express similar views to Mr Tikkiro. I've had to listen to them over the last few days. Call the Americans naive? (as some have in this forum). The people here make them look worldly wise :(

OzExpat
16th Sep 2001, 12:07
My thoughts and sympathies to all those who have suffered loss as a result of the horrific, despicable and cowardly actions of Sept 11. My thoughts and sympathies to all of my American friends (one of whom I feared had perished but, fortunately, was a victim of nothing more than phone line screwups) and the friends of my friends.

I also feel for all those people who are now too afraid to consider travelling in any aircraft ever again.

We, as pilots, have our own insecurity issues as a result of the effectiveness of the hijacking of four commercial airliners. We all felt that the flight deck was safe for us.

We also felt that our effays, while having to contend with a lot of sh!t on any given flight, were also quite safe.

None of these perceptions are true now. Is it ever likely to be true again? We probably won't live long enough to find out the answer. But, if there is no targetted retaliation, or if the retaliation somehow happens to fail, we will never be able to feel any safety ever again.

Little wonder many US carriers are in such deep financial trouble as a direct result of the use of innocent civil aircraft as weapons of mass destruction.

Whatever form the retaliation eventually takes, it must leave a clear message that civil aircraft must never ever again be used for any other purpose than that for which they were designed.

[Edited to remove my signature from this post, lest anyone think I'm being flippant]

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: OzExpat ]

Velvet
16th Sep 2001, 19:00
There are many people critical of American Foreign Policy and it is true that Americans have in the past not taken enough account of the consequences of their actions. Many may indeed be ignorant of what is happening in the rest of the world and for some international news is what happens in Canada or Mexico.

However, I am minded of the response I used to give to those people who once thought the USSR and communism was the salvation of the world. Why then do so many risk life and limb to escape to the West. Why do so many western countries need border partrols and immigration controls against a rising tide of refugees from the very countries who are the most critical of us. The brightest and best flee from the tyranny and terror imposed by leaders who only seem interested in their own power cravings.

They haven't fled their countries because the West needs their assistance, they haven't fled their countries because we are such decadent and irreligious communities, they haven't fled their countries because the Western World needs spiritual guidance. It is not the western nations who go cap in hand for economic aid because of serious mismanagement of the natural resources, nor put out the begging bowl every time there is a natural disaster. Their leaders may indeed be wealthy, but not at the expense of a downtrodden, poverty striken populace.

They come here precisely because of we give them what is lacking in their own countries. Freedom, human rights, dignity and somewhere that gives them relative safety to live within a fairly secure and open society. One in which they can have a reasonable expectation of seeing not just their children, but their grandchildren grow up. One in which there is tolerance for all creeds, colours, religious and sexual persuasions.

Not one where you are terrified of the midnight knock on the door, not one where only those who believe in a certain faith or religion are allowed to worship and not one where if you say the wrong thing you will be arrested and possibly tortured and killed.

These terrorists tried to dim the light of freedom and humanity, let the Americans lead the way in showing them that they failed.

America, we salute you for your courage in the face of this appalling tragedy and the bravery of your citizens in the rescue attempts. We grieve with you for the loss of so many, including those visitors who also died. We will stand shoulder to shoulder as you come to terms and deal with these cowardly and hate-filled acts of barbarity.

But do not let your anger and grief drive you to something that will result in the whole world mourning their own dead.

Winston Smith
17th Sep 2001, 02:40
Binoculars (so you are "Radar Departure2"?),

it was not my goal to provoke outrage. Of course I knew that some people (especially what you call the "nuke 'em now" brigade) were going to be upset about it, but likewise I also felt incensed about statements which smacked of the same arrogance with which the USA are treating not too few other countries. However, I was really dismayed to find people misinterpreting my comparison between the USA and a schoolyard bully. I simply cannot but consider this to be deliberate on their part since (as they will surely know) no PPRuNer could possibly feel that the victims "deserved" their fate.

I realize that it was neither tactful nor wise, especially at that moment, to restrict my first post to some kind of one-liner. I should have heeded the advice Slasher once gave: not to react, but to respond (I wish he had to say something equally sensible on the present topic as well instead of ranting about "Islamics").


Davaar,

many people in the Middle East might also reasonably perceive the present situation as war. The argument often used to justify the nuclear bombing of Japan is that the Japanese would have continued the war indefinitely (a point which is hard to refute), thus causing much more suffering. Now again, I cannot but presume that the terrorists must have followed a similar reasoning. As public opinion shows, they were wrong if they thought Americans would immediately demand that their government abandon its involvement in the Middle East, but there will be much more people questioning the price of their foreign policies, especially after further and even more gruesome terrorist strikes - which I know is easier to say than to imagine, but after this massacre, which I would have considered exaggerated if I had seen it in a Hollywood movie, the threat of biological or chemical attacks seems much more "real" to me.

Please note that I wrote "certain death" as opposed to "risk of death", and that I would never belittle the hardship American forces had to go through in the Pacific battlefield and the bravery they have shown. I just thought it worthy of mention after repeatedly coming across (in this thread and others) instances of the word "coward" being used in a sense that is totally different to that given by my dictionary ("one who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain"). Being a cold-blooded mass-murderer isn't necessarily the same as being a coward, if words are to have any meaning (a topic I'm very sensitive of, as my name suggests).

Paterbrat
20th Sep 2001, 01:27
Winston your getting close now. Just retract your statement, appologise for being out of line and choosing the wrong time to air your paticular views, no one misunderstood anything, the majority simply did not agree with your sentiments. You obviously don't agree with US policy, thought it got what it deserved and said so. Wrong time, wrong place my friend. Any other time it probably would have got by, right at this particular time you were told by a number of people to back off and keep your opinions to yourself. There is a time and a place and you didn't get either right. You are if nothing else, about as sensitive as a block of wood so I guess you will simply stick around bleating about being misunderstood. It's a free world, at least where we live, so help yourself. But if your sympathies do happen to lie with the Taliban, I don't give much for their chances if they don't make up their minds to give up Bin ladin soon, because the 'schoolyard bully' according to you, has been patient for long enough. Fair warning was given and a UN sponsored demand by the world's governments issued over two years ago is about to have a certain ammount of emphasise given to it, and not before time. Sorry if you don't feel that it's right, personaly I think it's about time someone had the balls to take out a world class trouble maker and truley evil person and send a message to a pretty violent regime who is recognised by no other state in the world except the one who created it , Pakistan. The Taliban seem to like nothing better than a fight, they might just get one that will satiate their need for violence.

[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]

Conky Joe
20th Sep 2001, 02:47
Velvet (hello, it's been a while)

Well done - fab post, you crystallised all my thoughts.

I've read this thread with CNN on in the background, reminding me of the reality. I think someone said it already - that everyone in this argument, sorry, discussion is on the same side - it is just a very long front line. Some will react in horror at that but essentially we are all agreed that this is truly an horrific example of man's inhumanity to man. My heart breaks for those who've died and those left grieving and for all of us left in a world more uncertain than before.

Aside from the coming together of a nation and countries across the world, united in an effort to rid the world of such barbaric people, a surprising good would appear to have come out of this, but I am struggling with the word 'good'. It would seem that the Israelis and Palestinians have agreed to stop fighting - the scale of the atrocity committed on American soil has apparently belittled their conflict in their eyes. That is momentous news - perhaps not for those in the West that cannot understand what seem to be pointless battles on one or both sides.

I apologise for not having the literary skills that other posters do but here is my dilemma ... I don't believe it was the terrorists' objective to cause peace to break out in the Middle East, in fact I think it was the complete opposite, but if it was, and the loss of life that has occurred on both Israeli and Palestinian sides for nearly 60 years will now cease, can this be viewed as a positive outcome of the tragedy in America? Before anyone takes a chunk out of me I am NOT looking for something that justifies what happened ... more struggling with the concept that 5000+ half a world away died and the apparent result is that where successive governments have failed, peace has now broken out. How can it be celebrated, while mourning what led to it?

Bailed Out
20th Sep 2001, 03:09
PaterBrat, Velvet, You owe it to your peers to become politians and spread the word. Never have I seen such true and guided words from anyone, let alone so called politians.

Wisdom is a learned gift, not born, given or bought

TowerDog
20th Sep 2001, 04:05
Paterbrat:

Well spoken.
I think you have said loud and clear what not only most people think, but also what makes common sense in the modern world.

Nuff said.

HugMonster
20th Sep 2001, 06:15
Many years ago (and not many people know this) I taught for a (short) while.

I had a kid in my class who was a smartarse. He didn't wnat to learn, and kept wisecracking, distracting those kids who did want to learn something, was violent, and foulmouthed both in and out of the classroom. There were numerous conferences with the parents by phone (they didn't live in this country) and they denied it could be their little boy, as they were convinced he was kind, pleasant and loving.

Every time I imposed some punishment he would whine that I was "picking on him", and occasionally simply refused to do the extra work, or remain behind in detention, whatever.

Eventually I lost patience. I didn't receive quite as much unquestioning support as I would have liked from my bosses (one reason I gave it up), but the kid was, at least, taken off my hands.

Throughout this history, which lasted several months, in his eyes, and when he was talking to anyone else, particularly, I gather, his mates at home, I was a big bully who didn't like him, picked on him, victimised him. I had had several complaints about him from other pupils, and this was part of the reason I lost patience.

I can see a few parallels here... ;) :eek:

Conky Joe
21st Sep 2001, 23:47
Danny -

Normally you are the voice of reason but, as with all of those that post on Pprune, the actions of terrorists on American soil has brought an emotive response, one element of yours was very surprising. You suggest that there are some on this thread that think the US should leave Israel to ‘fend for themselves against those same barbarians that perpetrated these murders’. Not once to my knowledge has the US suggested that Arafat is any way linked to what happened - and they seem to have run the gamut of theories to date. In fact, I would have thought it would be much easier to blame Arafat and much easier to track him down and bring him to justice.

You complain that misinformation and manipulation has warped people’s view of the ‘real’ story of Israel v Palestine. PR has gone on since Caxton invented the press back in the late 1400s (roughly where the Islamic calendar is now, by the way) and it surely works both ways, doesn’t it? There are gullible supporters in both camps; there are also those that try to absorb as much information from both sides to make as balanced a judgement as possible.

Each side can be as diabolical as the other in the Israel/Palestinian conflict, but your comments, in this instance, show an astounding bias. We could argue the points of the Balfour Declaration and all successive White Papers til the cows came home no doubt, but I find it impossible to accept your implied comments that the powers that be in Israel are an entirely innocent party. Their invasions across Palestinian borders in ’48 and ‘67 and Lebanon in ’82 were purely to further their own interests, exceeding those which were originally agreed. Their actions since ‘67 are in utter defiance of their benefactor’s insistence that they implement UN Resolution 242.

I have met American diplomats that have said their worst posting ever was in Israel – the people that they met were suffused with hatred for their enemy and they should be annihilated at all costs. The same statements that the children in Palestine are being indoctrinated with, reflecting the worst sections in the PLO charter. Do you seriously think that Israeli children are being brought up to believe that Palestinians are alright really, there’s just a few with a screw loose? I’d bet any sheckels I had they are brought up to hate in exactly the same way their opposite numbers are.

The intifada in 1987 was started by Palestinian teenagers – as with teenagers worldwide they sought to shake off the shackles of their oppresssors. Usually it is just parents – in this case it was Israel’s two decade rule. By the end 1800 were killed, the majority of them Palestinian, 300 of them Palestinian children.

The 2000 intifada was born out of absolute frustration – they want what they have wanted for nearly 60 years - their land back. In the name of that they have indeed committed unspeakable acts and although they have not taken the numbers that were lost on 11 September, one Israeli that died was one too many. How is it though that of the 800+ that have died, the majority are Palestinian? Why is it that the Israeli army responds to children throwing stones with helicopter gunships and mortar attacks?

Whether the children are encouraged or taught or incited, to be in the front line they can’t help it – the Israelis moved the front line to their doorstep when they invaded their borders.

“I do believe though, that until those leaders that allow and even encourage the indoctrination in hatred and glorious murder in the name of their religion are brought to justice then we will have to be on our guard to protect our liberties and freedoms.” Your statement could be said by both Israelis and Palestinians, when talking about their own citizens. The Israeli military don’t employ suicide bombers but they murder more from afar. They are not defending, they are attacking.

Having said all that, although it may appear confused, I do not believe that US abandonment of Israel is the answer. It is a small nation and has a right to be able to defend itself and to do that its economy decrees that it will always need outside assistance. There just has to be another way of solving their problems and bizarrely, 11 September could perhaps be marked down as the day in history that led to the two sides finally laying down their arms. I sincerely hope that it is and that those children that you saw Tower Dog, children on both sides, will learn to smile again.

[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Conky Joe ]

Conky Joe
22nd Sep 2001, 00:29
Danny - again

Oh bother - having deliberately ignored, until now, the thread Guv started re the possibility of Israel being behind 11 Sept I now wish I had read it, as it would have given me much greater insight into your post on this thread. I have left my post above unedited (apart from pesky typos) and hope you have time to reply. My knowledge is gained by reading, yours from experience and I look forward to you outlining the differences.

CJ

TowerDog
22nd Sep 2001, 08:11
Conky Joe:

I am a bit confused after reading your post's: Should the US abandon support for Israel? Give in to the terrorist and hope that it will not happen again?

Just roll over and say, Yes, we are guilty, please stop your terror and we will straighten out and give up democracy and the free spirit of living the modern way?

I think not:
Let the rag-heads pray to Allah 5 times a day, let them fight and back stab each other:
(Remember Iraq/Kuwait?)

Make the women walk a few steps behind the men, let them live in a dream world full of brain washing and hipocracy. But keep it over there in the sandbox please.


I have lived in the middle east and have seen how deep the madness goes.
It was confirmed again September 11th.

Would somebody please introduce mandatory abortion on those guys?
Just get read of the vermin.
The rest of the world needs it and deserves it.
Show no mercy.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Conky Joe
22nd Sep 2001, 12:17
Tower Dog

Sorry if I wasn't clear - unfortunately it's not a clear issue. My statement regarding US abandonment was pretty clear in the final paragraph. I would ask you to read it again and explain to me where I say that the US SHOULD abandon Israel - I do not - the opposite in fact.

I find your attitude understandable given the current climate but hardly constructive. If by 'vermin' you mean terrorists then I couldn't agree more but I don't think you do, do you? Are you restricting your implementation of abortion to just the Middle East or do you include all Muslims in your rants? If you called them all *******s when you lived here then I'm not surprised you saw some madness - would be like me coming over to your country and calling you all hillbillies or rednecks, wouldn't it?!

You tar a whole section of people as innocent as those that were killed, because of the insane actions of a few. I don't think 11 Sept ignited your hatred of those you call '*******s' - I think it was there all the time.


After posting discover that TD, you know that to put in your definition of the desert inhabitants you have to put in a hyphen!

[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: Conky Joe ]

Tartan Gannet
23rd Sep 2001, 17:55
Well, well, well!


I fly out of my nest and have a look at what the "great and the good" have to say about the events of 11th Sept 2001 in NY.

What do I find? Two of the three posters I detest the most, (BTW where is Jane Austen's Vicar on Earth? I thought he would have had plenty to say about it from his Ivory Tower), viz. HM and Winston Smith clawing each others eyes out. The sanctimonious in full pursuit of the obnoxious. (BTW HM, your admission that you were once a schoolteacher confirms my already unfavourable opinion of you. I can just visualise you sarcastically putting down kids unable to respond from your position of power in a similar manner to what you do on this Forum to those who dont subscribe to your personal value system. Then again, as they say, those who can do, those who cant......)

Now many of you, especially YOU HM, know my views on terrorists of ALL stripes, so the vigourous summary action I would take against Bin Laden and his cohorts need not be reitterated, join up the dots for yourselves.


Now I also recall the abuse I got from the "liberals" on my support for robust action against those who endanger the safety of aircraft, crew and pax. Perhaps a hard even lethal physical response against the scum who perpetrated these massacres either by armed sky-marshalls had they been on board or other pax might have mitigated the terrible outcome. I especially salute those passengers who did rush the hijackers on the aircraft over Pensylvania. They died but at least prevented it being crashed onto its target.

At last sensible security measures are being taken such as locking the door to the flight deck, banning certain objects from hand luggage, more rigourous searches of pax and baggage on boarding, etc, alas bolting the stable door.

Finally, whatever my own personal views about the USA, its foreign policy, globalisation, the WTO etc, I join with the vast majority in extending my sympathies to the families, friends and colleagues of the INNOCENT people who died that day, the crew and passengers of the aircraft, people in the WTC buildings, the emergency workers who were killed as the towers collapsed, and also to those not immediately involved but who have or may lose their employment as a consequence. I would also say that I feel that, whatever his opinion, Winston Smith should NOT have posted it in the manner he did at this time.

I also remind you that I did state on another thread that WW3 would be Islam Vs the Rest. Look more likely now?

[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: Tartan Gannet ]

Velvet
23rd Sep 2001, 18:18
Welcome back TG - that was some exit line, did you miss the whole thread dedicated to asking you back.

OCB was finally banned in your absence and you missed it :p

Don't be too hard on certain people, for much has happened and the aviation industry has taken much of the brunt of this disaster. Many lives have been touched by this tragedy and it would be better to hold out the hand of peace, than clutch tight the past arguments.

I also don't think the muslim community have yet realised how much it will change their lives once the economic downturn bites. Those who celebrate now, may yet find that celebration turned to dust as they reap the whirlwind sown by their heroes.

Binoculars
23rd Sep 2001, 18:24
I wondered how long it would be... :D :D

Let's face it, TG, you were never going to survive without us :)

Tartan Gannet
23rd Sep 2001, 20:29
Velvet, my very best regards.

No, I cannot extend the hand of friendship to certain persons. I feel that it is the "liberal" attitudes of them and those like them to hijackers and other malefactors that has to an extent contributed to the mess we are now in. Whether it is any faction of the IRA, UDA/UVF, Hammas, Black September, Al Fatah etc, etc, the only good terrorist is a dead one in my book.

Now I have no axe to grind against individual Islamics, as long as it doesnt intrude in my life I have no problem with ANY religion. I do however feel that a clash between the more extreme factions of Islam and the West has been on the cards for some time and the latest events may precipitate this Jihad/Crusade. While I hope that Dubya and his forces are able to quickly neutralise Bin Laden and his terrorists I fear that matters could escalate into something far bigger than most would wish. Let us hope for a speedy resolution to the matter with minimum involvement of innocent third parties.

tony draper
23rd Sep 2001, 20:42
Yo, TG, Well met. ;)

HugMonster
23rd Sep 2001, 20:45
Sounds like you've been eating plenty of red meat while you've been away, TG! :) Welcome back.

If your opinion of me is really that low I shan't bother to argue any of your assertions or assumptions. You've never met me, you have no idea what sort of a teacher I was, and as far as "those who can do, those who can't, teach" is, as most people already appreciate, total nonsense.

As for your allegation that the world's liberals are responsible for the current situation, well, I just can't be bothered to debunk such a ridiculous allegation.

Stick to your version, TG, and I'll stick to mine. I'm merely disappointed that your return to PPRuNe is marked with venom, insult and baseless allegation. I've never had anything personal against you, have in the past enjoyed debating with you, finding you refreshingly honest most of the time, if (IMO) mistaken about some things. If you find you dislike me personally for my views, then that's unfortunate. If we are to cut ourselves off from those who disagree with us, then all debate ends and wars begin.

Hoverman
23rd Sep 2001, 21:01
"The sanctimonious in full pursuit of the obnoxious."

Got to hand it to you, TG!
Although I think you were a bit harsh on HM, I have to admit that one phrase did have the wife in wondering why I was suddenly in fits of laughter.
(BTW, If you read HM's posts on the atrocities, I think you'd agree with much of what he's said.)

Tartan Gannet
23rd Sep 2001, 21:27
Suits me HM, good fences make good neighbours.

Hoverman, I suppose I ought to apologise to Oscar Wilde for adapting one of his famous quotations.

Perhaps, when the wounds have healed there may be some point in discussing if past US adventures in other countries both overt as in Grenada and covert as in Chile have brought this down upon them, but NOT I feel at such a sensitive time.

Hoverman
23rd Sep 2001, 21:36
The origins weren't lost on me, even though I'm not a hunting man myself. I think he'd be flattered.

Agree 100%, now is not the time to have a post mortem on US foreign policy in the Middle East, or elsewhere for that matter.

Paterbrat
24th Sep 2001, 01:41
Winston? Eerr Winston? Nope doesn't seem to be around. Wonder if he worked out what the majority of the reactions really were?

HugMonster
24th Sep 2001, 03:29
(BTW, If you read HM's posts on the atrocities, I think you'd agree with much of what he's said.)
Hoverman, I rather suspect that TG would rather die than admit that he agrees with anything I posted. As you can see from the above, he has no interest in listening to anyone whose views might make him think a little further than his own opinions, which are the things most dear to him in the whole world! Anyone who argues with him from any basis of knowledge he brands "liberal intelligentsia", not realising that in doing so he advertises his own lack of intelligent reasoning. And, as you see, he prefers the concept of war to any form of dialogue.

Diesel8
24th Sep 2001, 08:36
I too must admit to the fact, that I too believe it is time for the US to pull the aid to Israel, not because of the terrible events at the WTC, I have felt like this for a while. I think in most cases Israel overreacts badly to the threats surrounding them. A few kids throwing stones should not be met by attack helicopter gunships. The list of questionable actions by the Israeli's
is very long indeed. Nor does it make sense to me, that we, the US, supports them to the tune of 5 billion a year. They are not God's chosen people, they are people like everyone else and it is time they too start acting rational. I cannot condone the killing of innocent people, regardless of the beliefs held.

It also saddens me deeply, that despite the fact that the Muslims abhors the events on 9/11, they try to justify the reason. The Taliban say they want a pure Muslim state, so why do they harbor a known terrorist, who does not follow the teachings of the Koran, hopefully not because they too want death to all infidels, but it makes you wonder. Had they immediately asked OBL to leave, I would have had more respect, but they did not.

I believe the Germans were the first to say: "We will not negotiate with terrorist". Nor will the rest of the civilized world, not now, not ever and after these atrocius acts, I hope the civilized nations will hunt down and rid the world of these barbarians, where ever they may be. Regardless of what religion one believes in, I believe we all seek the same: Safety for our family, food on the table, the right to free speech. I think those dreams are universal.

I do not think there is a easy solution, but the acts of terrorism of 9/11 must never be forgotten or repeated. I was in NYC, scheduled to fly that afternoon, it is a day I will never forget, not just because of WTC, but also because that day, the whole city was acting as one big family and everyone was visible shaken, yet wondering how they could help. Now, the entire civilized world, when it comes to terrorism, is one big family.

Diesel8
24th Sep 2001, 08:51
P.S. While we are talking about one big family, lets us not forget, that US, along with many other nations, has aid workers in Afghanistan, these people were threatened with jail or are in jail on ficticious on trying to spread Christianity. Their whole purpose in Afghanistan were to help children and their families. When there are earthquakes around the world, the US sends aid, none was received when the quake hit SF. The US gives aid freely to impoverished nations, expecting nothing in return, yet we are always portrayed as warmongering and uncaring. As patriotic this may sound, the US has done more good in the world than any nation. So, please, next time we make a mistake, and we will, before you point fingers, think of how we are also always the first to lend a helping hand.