PNG/Aid/Africa ? for a newbee ?

[7gcbc]

Having read that excellent "PNG Diary" a few months back, I thought I'd ask the question.

Whats the go with a raw 200+ hr cpl (with tail) in PNG ? Assuming bare Twin and VFR, no MEInstrument.

Is it do-able ? would you get employ ? Could you live on it ?

Southern.Irish, Aussie perm, Married , 2 kids, and congenitally , acutely, unequivecally bored bored stupid working in the city. (SYD)

is it possible to do a six monther ? and perhaps return with tail bwteen legs to city ?

Where do I start ?

I'll ask the same question in the Africa Thread.

Thanks in Advance.

7gcbc

<was a pleasure knocking the wheels of that sweet chariot last weekend>

[Eee Tee]

Mate from what i hear of png, flying up there on a bare CPL with no CIR would be a recipe for disaster! :ouch:

It seems most operators up there are seeking hours in the vicinity of 1000.

[PropDuster]

7GCBC

I've heard from reliable sources you don't need CIR for PNG. There are next to no instrument approaches outside the major airports (ie where you'll be flying) so an instrument rating is of little use anyways.

You start of on a C206 then end up on a "Bongo Van" (BN2). Money supposidly OK, at least you can live on it.
Operators usually like to see 500 hours in command ME not essential.

Hope the wife is V understanding. GOSH essential.

Good Luck

Prop. :cool:

[OzExpat]

Much as I hate to be a kill-joy, I'm compelled to say that I think the information posted by PropDuster is seriously out of date.

7gcbc... with the experience you've implied in the opening post, there's no point sending letters and CVs. They'll go straight in the bin. Your best chance - and it still isn't a very good one - is to come up here at your own expense at go door-knocking, so to speak. If you happen to turn up at the right door, just as a pilot is going out thru it, headed for another job elsewhere, you MIGHT be lucky.

That is the absolute best that I can suggest.

There are very few C206s left in the country these days. My latest copy of the Register (not up to date) shows that the vast majority of those still flying are with Church organisations. You need to be from a very religious background for those jobs, I think. Even the venerable "Bongo Van" is a rapidly disappearing breed, with only a few companies still using them.

You MIGHT get away without an instrument rating but most companies still like to see one.

I'll let other people who haunt this place tell you more.

[7gcbc]

OZexPat, Prop & Tee,

Many thanks for the info, I know I'm a fair distance away from it right now, but unless I know what the reqs are i'm wasting my time. 500 could be achievable, Wife and kids would go fot it, but not long term.

I guess I'm like everyone else, throwing money at hours is pointless unless I have a goal...<back to my desk>

Thanks again.

7gcbc

[wishtobeflying]

Read this thread .... slowly and thoroughly. I know you're not suggesting the same madness as "Safari Suit", but the info in this thread is well worth paying attention to.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115103

Cheers,

SLC.

[7gcbc]

Thanks Sim,

Never would I do anything as silly as Safari is suggesting, (gotta admire his bottle though - from a safe distance, but to be honest it sounds like a wind-up), I'm just looking at all the options, Lines are not for me, GA is really where I intend to stay, so anything that involves taxing, challenging and exciting/interesting flying rings my bell.

And I agree with that thread, lots of good advice, thats why i posted :)

[Torres]

"Whats the go with a raw 200+ hr cpl (with tail) in PNG ?"

200 plus hours - and you think you can fly in PNG - and you think a PNG operator is that hard up he'd will employ you with your lack of experience???????? :{ Do you think a PNG operator is going to go to the expense of induction, CAO 28 route endorsement and probably aircraft type endorsements - all for six months work?

As OzExpat is very qualified to advise you, but hasn't, I will. You have a lot of learning to do son, before you start thinking about PNG. Or Africa!

Take a couple of Aspros and a long lie down. The feeling will pass!

[7gcbc]

I'm just asking the questions Torress, and if you read my responses, you will see that I am listening and understanding what has been said back to me, now if you wish to start flaming - be my guest.....suit yourself.

I value OzExpats opnion, and many others here also, I would also dearly value your opnion , but you are already ensuring that it may not be listened to by you're online demeanour.

Since I am asking
& getting answers, I now know that 1500+ is more realistic, with CIR and multiple types, I am not privey to the market in PNG, nor the people, suffice to say I know that I am well out of my league with 200+ in that environment, or would you rather that I eat humble pie publicly in front of you ? If you have advice, then you could perhaps offer that, rather than trying to demean people you hardly know.

Perhaps it is not me who needs the aspros, and of course when you had 200 hours, you never asked a silly question ? did you ?

apologies in advance for the recipocral.

rgds

7gbc.

[tinpis]

Quite apart from the skinny hours I would think PNG is no place for wife and kids, pack rape and murder being a national pastime.

Africa might be no better.

If your ambitions run only to GA you must have private means? None of my business but consider that you will be constantly looking for a job and living on the bones of your ass while you have one.

[troppo]

mate...
all torres was offering was a dose of reality spelt out a little bit differently...
wife and kids...no
6 months...no
200+ hours...no
have a read of the posts by the likes of torres and ozexpat and you will value both their opinions...they should know...
i know of a young kiwi guy that has been sitting in port moresby for three months and has family there that can't find work with 300 odd hours...

[7gcbc]

Thanks Troppo, tinpis


"wife and kids...no"
"6 months...no"
"200+ hours...no"


Thats' exactly what I wanted to hear, I apreciate it.

and I have had a good read of posts in here, thats how people like me learn to survive, by listening to advice from people like you, Ozpat, and Torres, he could have phrased it like you did, thats all.

[Sharpie]

I go along with the comments of Torres and please read the posts on Alan Mourilyan. I left last year after 37 years in PNG and the waste of life saddens me.

Be assured that 200 hours is not for PNG especially with a family to look after.

All the best for your future career.

Sharpie.

[7gcbc]

Fair enough sharpie, point well and truly taken.

Alan Mourilyans' death is disgraceful waste, I had no idea it was so dangerous. :(

No way would I be willing to put my family at that risk nor hardship for "hours" in that environment, apologies if my niaevity has offended. :uhoh:

Guess it's flying landomatics in Sydney basin for me then ? That'll be the ticket ?

:ok:

[OzExpat]

Torres... sorry mate, the "6 months" comment slipped past the radar in me saki-soaked brain... :( I am suitably castigated for the oversight.

7gcbc... I know that you didn't intend any offence and none has been taken, I assure you. After all, you only learn about things by asking questions.

In defence of me good mate Torres, who was here for a lot of years, he's seen a LOT more body bags than I have. We both want to see young blokes get ahead but, equally, we want to see them survive in the process.

There was a time when pilots with bare minimum hours could get their first job here. Many of them even survived and some of them are now flying heavy metal. But far too many of them didn't survive, so the employment culture changed.

It has changed even more over the years, mainly because most of the operations are IFR. The only thing that ahsn't changed is the hostile environment - terrain, weather and... yes, even law and order.

And, just to set the record straight, since I missed this point initially, nobody is going to offer 6 months work here. If you're planning to follow your dream, try for a job or two in Oz. If you still want to try PNG after that - for MUCH longer than 6 months - a CIR, DG Awareness Course and at least 1,000 hours will go a long way toward it for you.

Twin time and turbine time will also be a big help.

[the wizard of auz]

Hey Sharpie, I heard a yarn about you, aquaplaning and F27s the other day. I would love to hear your version, and if you were shaking as much as the stoey teller said. ;)
you know the old story. three sides to a story and all that.
:} :D

[Torres]

Wiz, don't start on the legends of Sharpie! :p Probably more stories about him than most other long term PNG pilots! You mention "the other day" - don't tell me Sharpie is back flying, presumably in his Asian paradise?

7gcbc. I wasn't flaming you - just giving you a reality check. If you are really interested in PNG flying I am rather amazed you had not done more research before asking the question. Do a search in PPRuNe. Go borrow and read the Balus trilogy of books by Jim Sinclair.

200 hour pilots should never be flying commercially in PNG. Unfortunately there was a time, as OzExpat said, when my employer took on a few low time pilots. One comes to mind around '79 or '80 - lasted four weeks before he took eight passengers to their deaths, off the end of Bundi strip. By the greatest quirk of luck I wasn't on C206 KRO when it went in south of Daulo with eight POB in the mid '70's - and the bodies were riffled by the locals for baggage, even the pilots wizz wheel and shoes. I've arranged more than enough pilot bodies to be flown back to Australia after accidents.

For families? Last Sunday my past work mate and friend of almost 30 years was shot in Mt Hagen. A few years ago a woman helicopter pilot was pack raped and murdered in Lae. In 1996, I was returning to accomodation on a short term visit to Mt Hagen and happened upon an expat who had been shot in the head and chest - killed in a car napping. My sister in law's life was ended by a drunken group of locals in Goroka.

Sharpie, OzExpat, Tinpis et al were all long term residents of PNG. I lived in PNG from 1963 to 1985 and raised a family there. The "good days" are gone, probably forever.

PNG never was a place for low time pilots and now it's also no place for families.

I think you've made a very wise decision to remain in Australia.

Zimex Aviation (http://www.zimex.com/) (based in Geneva) used to do a lot of Red Cross aid an relief flying in Africa. At least the terrain is better than PNG - even if the personal safety isn't. Heard of a few Zimex Twin Otters ended up with bullit holes (as did a Hevi Lift PNG helicopter a few years ago.)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Gotta agree with all the above...I was one of those low time guys who went to PNG for my first job...350 odd hours TT.

It weird but while we all LOVED the flying we certainly felt like we'd survived a trial by fire when we finished our last GA flights and moved on to airline flying. Many of us started our airline careers in PNG too on the venerable DHC7s & F28s at PX, in my case, or DC3s/F27s etc in the Sharpie era.

I used to believe that it was better to have a low timer newbie in PNG because they were empty vessels you could mould into usefull bushpilots.

1000 -1500 hrs seemed to be the more dangerous experience level but perhaps only for those of us who went with 300 hrs. When that style of flying is ALL you know you probably have a fear threshold that is too high for your own good.

PNG style bushflying really is the stuff of legends and is, almost exclusively, a (relatively) young mans game....older, very experienced newbies either went home in stunned disgust fairly quickly at what they were expected to do with aircraft or were marginally usefull if limited to trunk routes and kept out of the mountain strips.

It would be accurate to say that the only 'old guys' really bushflying in PNG today have been doing it since they were young guys....there are maybe 5 or 6...and I won't jinx them by naming them as they are all people I consider friends and I'm sick of losing friends in PNG.

All said and done the era of PNG being a place where a young pilot can prove himself, for want of a better expression, is gone in my opinion.

Having said that I can foresee a time when 1000+ hr pilots will simply not go there and economic reality may force employers to hire 300-500hr guys again. How they'll cope with insurance is another thing entirely....my first employer paid a higher premium for a few months, not huge...$500 from memory...times have changed though.

I stopped encouraging young guys to go there probably 6 or 7 years ago. 800kg of coffee is not worth dying for.

As with Torres I raised a duaghter up in PNG till she was about 7 and all my peers had wives and kids who enjoyed wonderfull early childhoods there...that would be untenable these days.

I look back at 13.5 years, 9000 (truly wonderfull) hrs, 36 friends killed in aircraft accidents, 3 friends (now) murdered, several raped, 6 or 8 more wounded, being shot at myself a bunch of times, having a gun held to my head (several times) while being robbed (with my wife lying on top of our daughter a few feet away on one occassion), close calls in aircraft that left my knees shaking....and worse still as the years rolled on a few occasions that should have left them shaking but didn't.

And of course friendships made that will be for life!!!!

I look back in wonderment that any of us survived to enjoy the view from 37000' with a tray of business class food on our laps, a fork in one hand while the other dances over the FMC keyboard....probably programing a cat 3b approach to zero zero in fog :( :uhoh: :ok:

Bit like Finchafen in the wet season Bob:E

Chuck.

PS- RIP AL

[tinpis]

with a tray of business class food on our laps, a fork in one hand while the other dances over the FMC keyboard....probably


Well you survived the rocks in PNG Chimbu now watch out for obesity , high BP , diabetes and terminal boredom

[Torres]

Chuck is on the money - not sure what Tinpis is on! :}

In the 60's to 80's PNG operators mostly had good check, training, endorsement and maintenance systems with experienced supervision of low time pilots, generally posted to coastal ports with less terrain and weather problems. Also, "The Department" was fairly active trying to keep us all honest - whilst trying not to bend too many Merlins at Mt Hagen! :p

Times have changed. Considering CASA were investigation and auditing PNG operator's Australian AOC's some time ago, one can only assume PNG operational standards, like most things in PNG, have declined significantly.

[7gcbc]

Really apreciate your comments Torres, as you say, if the standards have lapsed, and the old foxes (like yerself , Ozexpat and chimbu) are gone, then it's no place for a low-timer.

lets face it, I realise that with scant 200, even 5-10 times that, I would still need looking after.

besides , its nowhere to be for a young family.

rgds

7gcbc

[Chimbu chuckles]

Tinpis I probably already qualify as borderline obese :D but the BP, Blood lipids etc are all straight down the line, as for bordom....8-10 hr sectors are definately less exciting than 8-10 minute sectors but as my father says..."You've had a good time for nearly 20 years...time you grew up":(

Long haul is just a different kind of challenge...that of staying awake:E

And enough of the 'old fox' ****e too young grasshopper:ugh: :uhoh: :} Good luck in your career...you'll find your own golden era, anyway Torres is more like a ****house rat (as in 'cunning as') and no-one has yet managed to describe adequately Ozex...many have tried :E :ok:

Chuckles.

[OzExpat]

Thanks Chuck... I think... :} Hope yer managing to stay awake these daze mate! :D

I'm not sure that I enjoyed the reference by 7gcbc to being "gone", but it's probably pretty close to the truth anyway... ;)

Innkeeper... more booze! :E