Rolling Back NAS a Danger- AOPA

[Ibex]

The Australian Friday March 12- Steve Creedy


Extracts from the article :(
Proposals to roll back contentious airspace reforms are undermining general aviation and could lead to dangerous confusion among pilots, a key lobby group has warned.

AOPA which represents private pilots and small operators, says general aviation businesses such as flying schools have seen custom fall by 25 percent because of controversy over the safety of reforms.

AOPA vice president Ron Bertram said flying training organisations believed lower student numbers were due to claims by air traffic controllers and commercial pilot unions that the changes were unsafe.


...Mr Bertram said Airservices was only proposing a temporary rollback, with last Novembers changes to be reintroduced some months later.
He said the plan would lead to dangerous confusion and apprehension among pilots, particularly younger, inexperienced pilots.
"Chopping and changing back again -- and then back again --- does not make any operational safety sense", he said

[DirtyPierre]

Why are we hearing from the VP of AOPA Ron Bertram? Why isn't Ron Lawford making these statements to the press.

AOPA have a legitimate say in what happens even if they are only a "lobby group" according to some.

But it seems that not everyone within AOPA agrees with some of the statements made by their executive. Sometimes the executive seem to disagree amongst themselves. Perhaps it's because so many of the executive seem to want to be heard in the media.

Civilair, AIPA, AFAP, TWU, RAAA, etc all have one person who is the contact with the media for policy and comments. Why can't AOPA do the same?

But what is worst, they don't seem to have a handle on what's going on. AsA proposing a temporary rollback? AsA aren't proposing any rollback. Just an "enhancement" of NAS which includes frequencies on charts, some slight modification to the steps around some airfields, and maybe some more educational material.

Hey you dudes in AOPA. 2C is on the way.

Don't be afraid, be very afraid!

[Dog One]

If the AOPA members will have problems understanding changes to enhance safety in this airspace changes that we didn't need in the first place, then I would suggest they or their organisation seek some training, as if they can't understand change, it means they didn't understand the original changes.

Methinks that AOPA and the other lobbyists that have pushed for airspace change should put their money where there mouth is - this is the third airspace change which has failed, all these attempts have cost this country millions of dollars, completely and utterly wasted. The amount of money wasted would have funded the original pre AMATS airspace, ATC and FLight Service.

To expose the travelling public to the risk of a mid air collision in E airspace without radar must gaurantee the designer a Darwin award for stupity.

The government needs to look at the amount of money wasted on these airspace changes - as it certainly will become an election issue.

[HotZone]

:D DirtyPierre seems to have hit the nail on its preverbial head. The AOPA Exc will say anything to get into the media for their own personal agenda.

Should AOPA have just ONE media representative? Yes in order to portray some degree of professionalism. United they stand, divided they fall....is the saying I'm looking for here.

Did anyone else see the news item back in Nov when the current VP Bertram inormed us that NAS was safe and the frequencies on charts were eliminated in order to avoid confusion and "cluttering"? I know I did..interesting to see this rollback.

[bigfella5]

Just another example of low hour licence holders with far too much money than sense dictating to the professionals how to go about their jobs

[Atlas Shrugged]

I'm not a professional pilot. I'm private and contrary to what AOPA claim on my behalf DO NOT support NAS, nor indeed AOPA.

I have known Bertram for some time and have had the pleasure of flying with him on a number of occasions in the past which makes it even more difficult to understand how a group, claiming as they do to represent GA pilots, could be so unprofessional.

****su-Tonka got it - nothing more than a lobby group trying to gain the support of those gullible enough to not question it.

Most disappointing

AS

[cogwheel]

The sad part is that is seems obvious the AOPA board is in disarray and President Lawford does not seem to enjoy a majority when things go to a vote. The selfish views of a few are now destroying the Association by letting this mob rule riot over the fate of the association as the membership walks out the door.

There was much talk on the AOPA Forum a few weeks back on who should speak to the press, especially after Hamilton spoke out, apparently without board approval. The pro NAS, anti CASA view is alive and well within this board majority. Pity, but I don't believe they are representing the views of the membership.

The above (extremist) majority has given Bertram approval to "speak" on NAS matters. It does not appear to matter what the others think or what the President says. Bertram has his own views and as the operator of a flying school seems to believe that NAS will save his bacon and that all the scare talk of late is driving students away.

If only it was that simple.

[DirtyPierre]

I'm surprised that Bertram is so simplistic in his view about why his business is failing.

Would his business viability have anything to do with;

- rising price of consumables like fuel, oil, office equipment, etc
- rising cost of maintenance and engineering
- rising cost of insurance
- rising cost of maintaining documents and licences due to government regulations
- increasing cost of living, and the fact he is providing a service to customers who may spend money on other priorities when finances are tight?

Nah! Nothun to do wit dat!

[ferris]

IMHO it's far more simplistic than that.

When I was a kid, an airline pilot= loads of money, hardly ever worked, days away in 5 star luxury, surrounded by gorgous young things, glamour, glamour , glamour.

Now= path to airline job fraught with loads of potholes (including huge debts as you pay for endorsements), then monotonously boring job punctuated by minimum rest in whatever hotel co. can get away with, earning a teacher's wage.
Anyone spot the difference?

Am I wrong?

And they wonder why flying schools are struggling?

[INSIDEOUT]

Where to start.
It is not that often I visit or comment on forums but I could not resist this one. I am Ron Bertram in case there is any doubt so I will start.

"I'm surprised that Bertram is so simplistic in his view about why his business is failing.
Would his business viability have anything to do with;
- rising price of consumables like fuel, oil, office equipment, etc
- rising cost of maintenance and engineering
- rising cost of insurance
- rising cost of maintaining documents and licences due to government regulations
- increasing cost of living, and the fact he is providing a service to customers who may spend money on other priorities when finances are tight?"

DirtyPierre
Please don't take this personally, but your lack of understanding on operating costs astounds me for a start the only real costs that have changed in all of the above is the cost of fuel, My insurance renewal was the exact same price this year, have not seen any rise in maintenance cost in fact I would argue that with some of the regulatory changes that have taken place they have actually reduced.

In fact recent figure release indicate that people are spending more on recreational activities with record sales in Jet ski's, motorbikes and new cars this year.

"The above (extremist) majority has given Bertram approval to "speak" on NAS matters. It does not appear to matter what the others think or what the President says. Bertram has his own views and as the operator of a flying school seems to believe that NAS will save his bacon and that all the scare talk of late is driving students away."

cogwheel,
Now I am not sure where you get your info from, but I have been working on NAS for a year now. Your are so far removed from the mark as far as representing my own views it’s unbelievable. ? Have you ever asked me my views if you would like to know them I will be happy to discuss them in private 0408 637212.

AOPA had a pole with members and I continually ask their views in passing conversation as far as I am aware the entire board agree and have the same policy.


Atlas Shrugged,
You would know that my personal views may differ at times to policy, I don’t know how to explain this in a way you all will understand, but that is not my job in AOPA I am here to represent its members views and board policy. I actually have better things in my life to do than this believe it or not. My boat has not been on the water this year as yet :(. Some of you may be members if so and you want your say talk to me I will bring it up at a board meeting and leave it open for debate.


"But what is worst, they don't seem to have a handle on what's going on. AsA proposing a temporary rollback? AsA aren't proposing any rollback. Just an "enhancement" of NAS which includes frequencies on charts, some slight modification to the steps around some airfields, and maybe some more educational material."

DirtyPierre
This is getting silly you know fine well what becomes of a temporary roll back in this industry. I will now tell what happened at a recent haz id workshop.

Hazard, without frequencies and boundaries on maps on maps VFR pilot’s aircraft may be on different frequencies so there is an increase of collision. Mitigator place frequencies and boundaries back on maps.

Sounds fair? Not my decision.

Later in the day.

Hazard, when transiting from class E to class C and back again a VFR pilot may not be aware or misidentify the boundaries and be on the wrong frequency causing an increased risk of collision.

Now which is it to be guys in one argument boundaries and frequencies are used as a mitigator and in the other a hazard. This comment coming from a professional pilot?

Common denominator to above private VFR pilot simply should not occupy MY airspace after all he is not a professional.

Look we can argue this all day I accept people have various views. I also do what I am told if Ron Lawford wishes to do all the media work that’s fine by me, just for interest I have never made a media release without 1. Ron L reading and authorising it. 2 Been given permission in the first place. 3 Alway stuck to board policy.

As far as TV and radio they generally always go to Ron L, if he is not available then he may pass it on to me there are also times that they need to be done at the last min and I will have always contacted him for permission that is the job of a VP sorry if you don’t understand this.

Finally the board is not in fact in disarray sorry to disappoint you all we may not all agree but surely that's what active debate is all about. If any of you think that most public companies act any different then you need to do a bit more research. If you don’t like what’s happening stand for election and change things or become a member and vote I can't say much more than this.

Ron Bertram

[bigfella5]

Ron B,
Just for the record..........
1. Just what is your position on NAS?
2. Why are schools failing?
A couple of simplistic questions I know however......
Cheers

[tobzalp]

Serious question Ron. What is your point?

[INSIDEOUT]

bigfella5
Now you should know better than to expect me to answer those Question, s on a public forum that’s why I left my number.
For the record I never stated in my post that I thought schools were failing or to the media for that matter I basically stated that since 27/11 we have suffered a decline on new people wanting to learn to fly, this is not my view it followed a meeting of operators in Sydney these are facts not fiction and supported by records of flying hours.

tobzalp

Not really trying to make a point, there are allot of misconceptions and accusations out there just attempting to shed a little light.

[bigfella5]

Ron,
If it is the case that schools are experiencing falling flying hours, what then...in your view...are the prime and ancillary reasons behind this decline of individuals wanting to learn how to fly?
The NAS one I'll leave to ask u personally!
Cheers

[Richo]

Hello Ron B

Good to see you have a go here on PPRUNE. I hope the light you spread is reflective.

I see that you make the point that student numbers/ flying hours have dropped off after 27/11. I aggre that it is not nessecarily because of the amount of ready cash about in the community in general.

But to assume that it is because of the aviation community in general not supporting NAS in the media is not a good ground to stand on.

How about just maybe the public are staying away beacuse of NAS and the REAL reduction in safety in our skies. The people out there a not inclined to belive eveything they hear, especialy from Pollies, lobby groups and media junkies like Dick. But when they hear the respected and normaly conservative pilots and air trafficers bieng so concered about something then they may listen more, hence the low numbers, its just as plausable as your theory.

Personally I self predicted a down turn in avaiation training some time ago, but my resoning was the them move to LSC which has caused major increases in the cost of learning to fly for the majority of our city dwelling population.

You attened HAZID, good for you. But just were did anybody say you PPL or private operators must stay away from OUR CTA. They did'nt, anybody can use CTA, sure you pay, but the vast majority of users are IFR RPT/charter operators who operate aircraft in a high performance cattegory and are happy (sometimes) to pay. Should we use a LESS safe system just to appease a small amount of operators??, its a fair question.

As a 20+ year pilot, GA instructor and >57000 pilot I liked what I saw at the recient WA RAPAC from AsA for the enhacment of NAS, it will put back a lot of the safety, in some aspects its an improvment but overall the NAS structure is to present less safe operating environment, and that does not have my support.

Thanks for your time, and good luck to AOPA. Just remember you need many diferent views to make a truly representive body, the proof is in the ability to get over the speed bumps, and to climb the mountian.

Richo

[INSIDEOUT]

bigfella5

I cannot give you all the answers to that there is probably multiple reasons, expense, age of training aircraft, difficulty of finding work, attitude of instructors, training standards to name a few.

But what I can say is that I am part of a working group that is meeting regularly to look into these area's with a fine tooth comb and hope to find some answers I would also love some of you guys out there to forward reasons why you think there is a decline my email is [email protected], hope that answers your question.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Ron,

Understood. I'm sure you realise that I was not having a go at you personally. I just find it insulting when a AOPA claim to represent me on matters where our views oppose. It is based entirely upon the assumption that because I hold a private licence I agree with and support their stance on various issues. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Whilst it is of no concern to me what goes on inside AOPA, from the outside it seems that they (and others) have done no end of damage to their reputation by the way in which thay have handled the issue of airspace reform and regrettably, this is what is being fed to the public.

AS

[cogwheel]

cogwheel,
Now I am not sure where you get your info, but I have been working on NAS for a year now. Your are so far removed from the mark as far as representing my own views it’s unbelievable. ? Have you ever asked me my views if you would like to know them I will be happy to discuss them in private 0408 637212.



Good for you Ron, Dick has been working on NAS and it's variations for 15 yrs he says, so your one year looks real good.

NAS has a minimal effect on the state of GA or its survival - any thoughts that it might save the day is a pipe dream.

I have some difficulty in the belief that you (and the board) are all working as a team. You seem by default to have aligned yourself with the extremists, which is clearly the problem AOPA has. Get rid of those (extremists) and you may just see a turnaround.

As a member, when I see a such a turnaround I will gladly give you a call. In the meantime I suggest you are out of touch with the membership that is not in the training world or lives outside of Sydney.

[bigfella5]

Ron,
I'd like to do that however I'd suggest it might be more interesting for whoever is following these threads and economical from at least your point of view to put these discussions out on an open forum.
What say we start a thread called "Reasons behind the flying training demise" or such and give everybody a go?
Someone might even learn something!
Waddya say?
CHeers:E

[INSIDEOUT]

bigfella5

I agree after all everything to gain nothing to loose.

[bigfella5]

In that case, get yourself over to the Ga forum and away you go.
Start off with your views, thoughts,observations etc and giddy up:ok:

[INSIDEOUT]

cogwheel

Must be good to stand and fire shots behind the line and no one knows who you are. I do and we have talked this issue before I will go further to say it is people like you that are destroying AOPA, members vote in directors and it is their decision not yours or mine. Every one is entitled to a view.

"Good for you Ron, Dick has been working on NAS and it's variations for 15 yrs he says, so your one year looks real good."

What’s your point I have only been a director for a year? I thing your comment is out of context to the reason I stated this.

"I have some difficulty in the belief that you (and the board) are all working as a team. You seem by default to have aligned yourself with the extremists, which is clearly the problem AOPA has. Get rid of those (extremists) and you may just see a turnaround."

The difficulty you suffer is listening to one side of the story and this is so because of your personal hate towards the individuals you mention let it go it will sort itself out in time. I am now starting to believe that your views are becoming as extreme as the very people you are quoting.

By default crap I have no alignment with any party you know this so stop attempting to say otherwise in fact your comments indicate that it is actually you that is taking sides. I listen to debate on all issues and vote on reasonable argument when no reasonable argument exists and the issue is this kind of childish trash I abstain and will not get involved with such behaviour.

Sir I am a simple working man have been in aviation since I was 17 I work daily running my own business and also spend hours and weekends working with our members to build AOPA. your comments are non constructive and driven by your hatred towards other board members.

To end I talk daily to AOPA members form all over the country and listen to what they are saying not just in the Sydney basin as you suggest. As always I listen and bring up their views at the appropriate table and as long as I am re-elected will continue to do so. Should the members not re-elect me at least my boat will be back on the water and I can get on with other relevant issues. Ron B

[Bob Murphie]

You appear to be holding your own here Ron, and good on you for sticking to the thread even though it appears to have gone off topic NAS wise.

Those of you with the barbs should know that Ron has seen who the frauds and pretenders are at AOPA when he was slandered and liabled with words he's never seen in the Bible. He's been lied to and threatened and had to deal with cleaning up the mess that others have caused with corporate incompetence.

A lot of people seem to forget the "strict liability" matter that probably has done more harm to AOPA membership than any "radical" elements therein, these that probably, (if I am guessing right), are the epitome of conservatism.

Perhaps there are winds of change in a new AOPA Board come May and one would hope that the membership will vote for those they have confidence in and not at the behest of the barb throwing throng who would see us "low time pilots" go unreprersented.

The President's duty is primarily the Chairman and should be referred to as such. Media and other matters should be the responsibility of the CEO or VP which, in this case is Ron Bertram.

One last thing. Ron Bertram was never part of the "A team" ticket of last year. He was an independant nominee. He was appointed by the "A team" to load the Board to 12 and as such he has to run for election this year.

This will tell if his efforts are appreciated or not by the Members.

[HotZone]

Phew - what an introduction to this site! Better than reality tv with the length and breadth of the tirades.:D

Butting in....I'm still waiting on the reasons for, and debate on why flying training schools are failing. :zzz:

It seems forum members are in agreement (well - no one has disagreed yet) that it would make better sense to have a thread to discuss this aviation problem. So can we get on with it please.

DirtyPierre seems to have plausible reasons so maybe we should start there.

- rising price of consumables like fuel, oil, office equipment, etc
- rising cost of maintenance and engineering
- rising cost of insurance
- rising cost of maintaining documents and licences due to government regulations
- increasing cost of living, and the fact he is providing a service to customers who may spend money on other priorities when finances are tight?"

Ron B - can you do the honours and start a thread, as you need the info to feed back to AOPA. :ok: As an owner of a business in the leisure industry I have certainly been hit by points 3 and 5. Can't believe that other leisure business have managed to escape.

Cheers

P.S. Dig this conspiracy theory. :p

[INSIDEOUT]

HotZone

Keep smoking what ever it is you are smoking must be good. As for conspiracy theory nice try you should be a little more careful with your private emails tut tut, sorry not really interested in playing your political band standing games. You should stick to a topic you know about good luck in finding one.

Lets stick to facts prey tell me on a comparative basis how much aircraft insurance has change say in the last 3 years, or maybe tell me about the cost of aircraft maintenance at GA level has it gone up or down and why, while you are there perhaps tell me how much fuel and oil has changed in the last year or so.

Lets see on a trend analysis basis tell me what the national average flying hours are doing? I have spent 100's of man-hours looking into these issues with others that are attempting help GA.
Tell me something constructive or stop wasting our time

Perhaps its all a conspiracy maybe we all imagined the record spending on recreational activities like Jet Ski’s motorbikes and cars etc. Above all maybe myself and other operators will wake up tomorrow and realise our loss of hours since 27/11 is just a dream and maybe I imagined that parents with students have been calling me about their concerns about airspace safety.

Are you for real?

[cogwheel]

Hotzone:
I got a good laugh out of your conspiracy theory, I think you and Ron must be dreaming together! Maybe you are just dreaming?

Ron B:
Good to see you contributing even if we don't fully agree. Maybe we should keep this discussion on topic and keep our eyes on the ball? If you don't see the huge problems in AOPA now then as one of the more responsible members of the board, with respect we don't have much hope. The 'extremists' are there and one would hope they have not brainwashed you! And no you are wrong: I don't "hate" anyone on the board, I just question if AOPA would be better off without them? I happen to believe it would! (and this election is not going to fix that, worse luck)

Bob M:
I agree and would also hope that Ron B does not participate in any team this year. He has told us here that he is his own man, so we should respect him for that. Teams will not get my vote, just the best people for the job. Mind you I don't believe there will be much choice!

As for the NAS Rollback. I guess we will all find out what ASA are going to do on that soon: option 1 or 2 ??

[Woomera]

The thread topic is:

Rolling Back NAS a Danger- AOPA

This is not a forum for personal attacks on anyone, whether or not they have posted to this thread.

Please keep personalities and personal differences out of PPRuNe.

Keep to the topic!

Woomera

[Bob Murphie]

When AOPA was formed over 50 years ago the idea of September 11th would never, never have been dreamed of. We now live in a world vastly different yet we still have a representative body like AOPA with a corporate structure the same age.

It does not represent contemporary values and has severe limitations on its operation abilities because of endless internal struggles.

Simultaneously we have a regulatory authority that, in my opinion, is running the aviation industry into corners with arcane and duplicitous legislative instruments that have little or no bearing on common sense safety issues.

Throw the fear of terrorism in with over regulation and we get further over governed by "big brother"such that it is little wonder aviation, especially GA, is suffering.

In this world gone mad sceneario, the grass roots of aviation, where our future airline pilots and entrepreneurs come from, is ignored and we certainly deserve better.

Unless this tier of aviation can be better represented by a body like AOPA with their interests at heart we will be doomed to dust with the sort of "centralised governance" we have at Board level now.

The membership are a wake up to the ego trippers and fraudsters and except for apathy, we would speak as loud as some here on Pprune. But as we say, "who cares".

I believe, from what I have seen to date, there WILL be an election with quiet a few new faces throwing their hat in the ring. All have a vision of what they would like to happen with AOPA, and most believe that nothing is going to change by leaving things the way they are, and it's up to them to make it happen.

All are running as individuals but are united in the goal of ridding AOPA of the incessant and nagging vitriolic attacks from within and without.

A "ticket", I doubt, but a team of like minded individuals with an aim of progress for the organisation, yes, more than likely, given the "ghosts left over from the last "ticket".

"Extremists" ? are you going to give us a hint ?

[tobzalp]

This thread no longer makes any sense. Posts I have previously read are different and some even removed. Might as well be the AGAF boards. Pretty weak.... see the thread on censorship.

[Bob Murphie]

You are right. NAS and AOPA should never have been mentioned in the same sentence. Guaranteed to get a rise out of someone.

If AOPA have 4000 odd members out of 30,000 odd pilots in Australia they should not warrant the attention they get here. If the anti NAS group are so powerful, AOPA should not be seen as a threat to their various agendas.

Anything AOPA should be kept in the GA section where we belong, not with you professionals.

I apologise for keeping the thread alive and being part of its meandering off it's intended track, (whatever that was).

[Jedi]

1. Dangerous to roll back NAS? would it be less dangerous than leaving it as it is?!?!?!?

2. Less flying training = less meat through the sausage machine.
Maybe Im out of line, but wouldn't that be a plus for everyone.

eg, reduce supply increase demand, the industry becomes attractive again = increase in students... everyone wins.

(sounds familiar, the recession we had to have)

Swings and Roundabouts.