Cessna Twin SID's

[The Chef]

As I understand it, from 31st March 04 all Cessna twins that have a SID will be grounded until they comply with the Cessna Supplimentary Inspection Documentation. From what I understand, this isnt even a mandatory requirement in the US yet, and the FAA is giving Cessna owners till 2005 to comply.

Of course for safety reasons, these SIDS are not a bad idea, but why must they be implemented in Australia by the end of the month. For an aircraft that has not yet had the wing spar mods done, this work is worth between $80k and $100k and will take at least 3-4 weeks. Why not over the course of the next year???

Correct me if I am wrong on any of this - it would make my life a lot easier!!!

How can CASA expect GA owners and operators to cope with this?????

Anyone know any more / different???

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

So is this newest knee jerk reaction based on any actual findings during the maintenance of actual line use aircraft in OZ or another butt covering exercise ??, just like the R22 MRB scenario ??.

This unreasonable schedule and approach is probably just another way of bringing in some ludicrous maintenance requirement, to appease all and meet the implementation of the SIDs for C300's, they'll come back with an ammended timetable as an "effort" to appease industry, we'll see, there will be lots of operators kicking up, no doubt soon enough it will be required for all aircraft over ten years old.

Have looked at FAA web site for details of theses AD's, it was not listed for C310R, am i missing something ?.

Reading the explanatory letter from CASA suggests that other countries agree, but is the truth that it has infact not been made law ( i.e " I direct you" ) ???.

[bush mechanics]

Chef.
Intially al 402s were grounded on tuesday,But now we have three weeks to complete the SIDs program,It normally takes 4 months.It cost a little more than 100k,From experience you wont get much change from 200k.We have 3 C models which have had the SID program completed.We did 2 of the a.c and the 3 was done interstate.
Cessna call it up @ 15000 hours or 20 years.
Wingstrap mods are caried out around the 7000hour mark.
Now someone at CASA have relised that most 402 series a/c are all over 20 years old and there wings are due to fall off.This will be the same for all 300 and 400 series ac in the future.I know of one C model owner whos a/c has only 3000 hours on it,But its more than 20 tears old.
Cessna actually bought back a B amd C model 402 both with close to 20000 hours and pulled them apart and found no major defects in the Fail Safe Areas(wings and empanage)
Funny,theres alot of 30 year old chieftans getting around,There value might go up at the end of the month.

[maxgrad]

or their wings might fall off due lack of SIDs:E

[Towering Q]

Just when you think CASA couldn't get any worse....:(

[the wizard of auz]

these friggen idiots should be made accountable for these no notice, big dollar, airplane and bussiness killing ideas they have.
a week ago I owned an asset, now I own a piece of historical junk...... all at the swipe of pen from some ****** in canberra.
:mad: :mad:

[PropDuster]

A Regional operator has just had a similar problem with CASA regarding 144 monthly checks on their F100s. Fokker and and the regulators in Europe and the FAA all have no problem with extending the shedule.

This is not only frustrating and expensive for the company in question but seems to fly in the face of common sense and harmonisation of the application of our regulations with those of Europe or USA. Isn't that what the CASR excercise is all about?

When are these :mad:ers in Canberra ever going to get some common sence or employ someone with the backbone to make a decision instead of all this knee jerk :mad:

Here endeth the rant :{

Regards Prop

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Egads!!

Nothing on the CASA website.

Does anyone have a link for FAA or CASA web llink?.


R-F-G
(possible 400 series and 300 series static display owner)

[the wizard of auz]

RFG, if you have any 300/400s, you should have had some info through the mail.
I'm waiting to hear from my LAME to let my know if I have just become the owner of the biggest mail box/jungle jim in the state.

[maxgrad]

It's great to see CASA is maintaining an even playing field

1. Lets base our airspace system on the USA model
2. Lets disregard what the FAA decides with regard to life extension programs on aircraft and impose costly changes for the operators and owners controlled by CASA.

NOT

[feet on the dash]

How long do we have to put up with CASA destroying peoples lives because they don't know what they are doing.
Shut them down and hand it all over to the FAA.
The FAA give their operaters until Dec.2007 to comply with SIDS.

[High Altitude]

I feared for my safety on completion of that 402C flight that I just did. The aircraft now has around 3100 hours total time and I just felt like the wing would fall off...

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Its just not a fair way to go about things.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Wiz of Auz:

That's why I wrote possible, I should have clarified..........

Was looking at a nice 421 from overseas when I read this forum.

The fuselage might make a nice chicken coop for the owner now.....

[The Chef]

Here is a copy of the letter and the other :mad: that CASA sent with it. Just for light reading..........

http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/aircraft/info/cessna_sids/index.htm

[Wheeler]

Thankfully don't own a 402 - but do feel for you guys that do. How can any regulator see the sense in mandating that kind of aog and expenditure on aircraft of that value and expect the (their) industry to remain viable? Oh well, if they carry on like this they wont have much left to regulate. Will Mr Anderson will still need them then?

[bushy]

I remember some years ago, reading in the crash comic about how these very clever aeronautical engineers, from CASA, or ATSB, (or whatever it was called that week) had discovered a way to safely detect and fix, developing cracks that were threatening the integrity of wings. They heroically advised the americans how to fix their problems. Surely they could not have been wrong.???????
It appears to me that the military, customs, CASA, the airlines,and the Cessna aircraft sellers do not want any of these machines around, and CASA is helping to get rid of them.
The country desperately needs these machines for much needed transport in the outback, where they have not yet built the roads,
but our coastal dwelling administrators do not know, or care about this. So there will be no more development, no more gold mines, oilfields, diamonds, and our population will concentrate around a few regional centres.
Soon GA will only consist of the local flying school, which trains pilots that no-one needs. (we are nearly at that point now)
and our gallant comrades at Qantasflot will have an absolute monopoly, operating a few outback services that no-one can afford. There will be no accidents, because there will be no flying.

[compressor stall]

Would be great if the aviation industry had a group that represented the interests of private pilots, professional pilots and aircraft owners that was a powerful lobby group with the government /CASA.

It would publish a magazine, send out media releases and do its best to get the public to realise how important GA is to everyday life in the part of the country we idolise so much. Above all, politicians and rule makers would listen.

We are a small aviation community at the moment. We need an organisation that represents ALL facets of GA. United we stand.

[the wizard of auz]

And wouldn't it b good if, once we got the group together, they spent more time on the issues at hand, and less time infighting. ;)

[Towering Q]

I thought it was going to start happening when I heard Gaunty was becoming involved. Oh well, there's always tomorrow.:sad:

[nasa]

Anyone have any idea what is happening....ie the latest from Canberra. Seems that this subject has died, particularly when it would appear to effect so many aircraft owners

[bitter balance]

Cessna Twins may be up for major modifications
http://www.ozflight.com.au/news/news.php?id=1680

The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is currently reviewing reported occurrences of wing failures and critical main spar cracking in Cessna 400-series aircraft.

The review has been prompted following a history of cracks in the wing spars, the main support structure of the wing, of numerous aircraft over the last 20 years and most recently in 1999 when a fatal crash resulted from a wing separation. Analysis from the FAA and the aircraft manufacturer Cessna, has shown that the wing spar may fail if it is not modified. The FAA has outlined that its primary safety concern is that once a crack starts, it can grow to a critical length before it is detected using current inspection methods.

The key discussion point of this review is the proposed issuance of an Airworthiness Directive, a compulsory maintenance notice, for all Cessna 400-series twin aircraft. The directive would require all of these aircraft to undergo a structured maintenance program reported to take 485 man-hours and costing up to $70,000 per aircraft.

Two US industry-based lobby groups, including the Regional Air Cargo Carriers Association (RACCA), is actively working with the FAA to identify a workable solution to meet the needs of all parties. However it potentially spells the end of 1500 aircraft operating in throughout North America as “the cost of the wing-structure modification represents a large percentage of the aircraft's total market value” the RACCA said.

The number of aircraft affected in Australia is not as high as the US with around 140 currently registered. The impact however for the operators of these aircraft has the potential to be crippling. Cessna 400 series twin-engine aircraft are used predominantly to provide air services to regional centers from major cities such as Adelaide, Darwin, Launceston and Perth.

Perth based Skippers Aviation operates airline and charter services throughout regional Western Australia to ports including Geraldton, Kalbarri and Monkey Mia. Skippers is one of the larger operators of the aircraft in Australia with the turbo-prop Cessna Conquest comprising a third of its fleet. The airline has an excellent safety record and this aircraft has proved to be safe and reliable for the regional carrier. Suffice to say, the impact of 485 hours of maintenance work on these trusty workhorses of the air may see them grounded with the financial burden proving to be too much for the already cash-strapped regional aviation industry.

The FAA held public talks earlier this month and is likely to release further information following an industry consultant period closing on April 5th.

[the wizard of auz]

Strange, the artical doesn't mention the 300 series. the letters I have recieved from CASA state, this SID program involves all 400 and all 300 series aircraft except the 336/337 and the 303 crusader.
I doubt that we are going top have much of an impact when trying to deal with the states, as we have bugga all (reletivley) of them flying over here.

C310 x124
C320 x3
C340 x26

C401 x4
C402 x57
C404 x30
F406 x5
C411 x1
C414 x12
C421 x17
C441 x23

Most of these aircraft have had the mods done to the spar straps and spar end caps, at great expense and with engineering approvals. Now we are going to have to remove them and start again as its not in Cessnas interest to approve the mods already done. even if they do approve them (doubtful) it will be at great expense.
The owners of the 400 series aircraft will be pretty cranky to find out that their, once pride of the hanger, will be a useless piece of scrap after 20yrs/40,000 hrs, whichever comes first. That aught to knock most of the fleet out in pretty short order.
and most of the 300 series are going to go the same way....... who is going to spend between 70 and 120K on an aircraft thats worth between 100 and 200K ????. not many,I would venture a guess.
:mad:

[bush mechanics]

Wiz,
Ive had a read of the SIDs and cessna does say its valid for any 402 which hasnt been structurly modified with a STC,This includes ,vortex generators,Winglets,approved wing straps and diffrent engines.Where the a/c has been moded contact the STC provider.Mate contact John Hardy (Hardy Aviation)as he organizing operators to form a group to loby CASA,
Bitter Balance,The 402 that lost its wing had a extremely high cycle time.It operated low level 15 min sortes over the grand canyon.Its the cycles which realy stress out your a/c.
Cessna now have there own spar strap kit available.

[QSK?]

compressor stall:
We need an organisation that represents ALL facets of GA. United we stand.

Such an organisation exists! It's called the Australian Aviation Council (AUSAC). Contact Gary Lawson-Smith on (03) 5282 0514

[High Altitude]

I believe there has been breathing space granted?

[the wizard of auz]

yeah, A whole two weeks................ big deal!

[High Altitude]

Wiz, you sure? I believe it is longer 6 months? I haven't checked the docs though been flat out. Heard this from an owner.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

H.A. is right;

It is 6 months.

6 months for nearly 300 twin engine aircraft in Australia to have 500+ hours work done on them (each) to remain airworthy.

If I was an owner of any 300/400 series, I would immediately book an engineer to do the work.

There are not enough workshops or engineers to go around to do all the inspections in time as well as their normal duties.

6 months will go in a flash!.

Otherwise, you have 6 months to try and sell your aircraft to a country that does not have a program to ground the aircraft.

[the wizard of auz]

Hmmm, OK, maybe I havn't recieved that letter yet. I got the second letter from CASA the other day telling me they had extended the compliance period until the 31/03/04, and after that date, if I hadn't complied with the AD, I shouldnt fly the aircraft.

[TeamTerminal]

Where is the 6 months comming from? The CASA web site still says 31Mar04, and we haven't received any letter or other advice giving 6 months.

http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/aircraft/info/cessna_sids/index.htm

[the wizard of auz]

I just heard on the grapevine that the AD is possibly about to be cancelled, and reissued at a later date with a few ammendments.
The amendments are, I believe, an extention of time to comply with the AD and the removal from the compliance of aircraft in the aerialwork/private catagory.

The comment I heard was, this is my first AD, and every one is allowed a mistake when thier new to the job.

All I can say to that is "Phew". :\

[The Chef]

From the CASA Website:

Dear Cessna Operator,

This is a follow-up to my letters to you dated 2 and 10 March 2004. Those letters contained a maintenance direction issued under regulation 38 of the Civil Aviation Regulations (CAR) directing that Cessna aircraft comply with a Supplemental Inspection Document (SID) where such a SID exists for the type and model of aircraft.

CASA has received a large number of telephone calls and letters from Cessna operators and other people concerned at the prospect of many aircraft being unable to be flown, and the impact this will have around Australia. The information I have received has convinced me to cancel the maintenance direction. I hereby cancel the maintenance direction issued under regulation 38 by me on 10 March 2004.

CASA wishes to see the travelling public given the safety benefits of SIDs in a timely fashion, but without causing unreasonable economic hardship to operators. CASA will communicate again on this subject in the near future.

Yours faithfully,

Neville Probert
Head of Airworthiness Standards
Delegate of the Authority






Watch this space, I wonder how long we will be given?????

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Good to see a reprieve for existing owners.

Still, it's quite some axe over an owners head knowing that at some time in the future, the SID will be implemented.

I would hate to want to sell in a hurry. A 300 or 400 series Cessna is now unsellable unless it's at a givaway price.

[hole in the air]

I think you guys are missing the point with all this. Under CASAs rules these SIDs have always been mandatory, people have just ignored them to save money. Why they need to save it is a whole other story.

The wing spar issue is only one of many. If the spar was replaced or modified under a previous AD then it's zero timed for the purposes of the spar SID from then. It would have to be replaced under the AD in the future anyway, so when the next spar SID comes around again you do it then. So the big outpouring over the wingspar is a lot of nonsence. The reason for the spar mod is that the smallest detectable crack with eddy current testing in the original design is a bees dick from failure. It's bad enough putting your life in the hands of a LAME, but there is no room for error here.

I have a 402B and started on this path last year. The SID is very comprehensive and covers the whole airframe. The structural and other problems it's shown up with my plane would turn your hair grey. Anyone who thinks this is unnecessary has rocks in his head.

If there is a major airframe failure in one of these aeroplanes now, there will be hell to pay with the public. No one will want to fly in one, the publicity will be huge, then we're really stuffed. People need to bite the bullet now and get the work done.

[High Altitude]

Very valid points.

But what about an aircraft with only 3000TT?

[hole in the air]

CASA AD/Cessna/400/40, that has been around for more than 10 years, gave the spar an 8200 hour life. Now Cessna have said that CASA was optimistic and have reduced it back to 6500 hours (SID 57-10-08) so he still has 3500 hours to go. At his current rate that's another 20 years or so! There is no year life on the spar. That's the big (485 hours) one out of the way.

The carry through (centre section) inspection is the only bad one. It requires one off modifications for doing the inspection (175 hours!).

The rest of the plane, however, has probably been corroding away. If not, then the cost won't be that bad and the other inpections will let him rest easy at night when he has someone flying the thing IFR in turbulence.

[bush mechanics]

Hole in the air
If you the owner.maintains your a/c to the CAPS,the SIDs is a minimal exercise.No mater what ,when the a/c reaches 40,000 hours,Yibida yibada,Thats all folks.You stick a flag pole up its rectum and tell your grand kids wary's.
402,a and B's have always had spar problems,especially near the engine areas.Ive seen a spar on one that looked like it had crystalized from the heat from the exhaust/Turbo.Plus having 44gal drums mounted on the wing tips dosnt give spars a good start.
Cessna adressed alot of the design faults when they buit the C models.

[the wizard of auz]

always wondered about the 44s out there on the wings. they do tend to flop around in turbulence when full.
My old 310 is 37yrs old and it would make you wonder what goes on with all the compressing and stretching. maybe a bit of work hardening in the spar area.
Certainly food for thought.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

This showed up on last Thursday's Avweb Newswire.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2004/04-11705.htm

Regards

Mark