Australian Airlines exodus of pilots to Dragonair [Archive]

Kaptin M

10th Mar 2004, 04:54

Add to that the cost to QF for promotional training once replacements have been given.........it all adds up.

But is fully tax deductible.
I've come to the conclusion, from my experience, that most airlines don't give a fig about "training costs".

At my present company we have calculated that the training costs of bringing a current pilot into the system is USD250k. This was confirmed as correct by the contracting agency.
Yet this company will bring - as an example - a B744 pilot on to the B737 for 3 years, and then send him onto the B777!!
This has been the system for the 5 years that I have been here, with the annual turnover around 12 (12 out - 12 in).

When someone figures out what accounting system airlines use they might like to post it here.

And yes, Dragonair have been busy recruiting and pay reasonably well, I've heard. They've even managed to attract Aussies from Silk Air and SQ.

The lack of $$'s in Oz (plus the possible, impending confrontation with QF's overpaid management) make employment as an expat. pilot a far more attractive proposition.

Australia's airlines are stepping stones - where inexperienced pilots can gain some airline jet time - before moving overseas to the REAL jobs, that will give you the financial capability of buying a house AND supporting a family!

The_Cutest_of_Borg

10th Mar 2004, 05:04

It adds to my feeling that we have seen the bottom of the cyclical trough as far as the availability of experienced airline pilots is concerned.

Expect to see more of this in the future as Asian LCC's compete for pilots and mainline airlines further recover from the setbacks of the last two years.

While it won't go all the way to ridding OZ of the systemic problems we face re pilot supply that have been discussed in other threads, it does offer some hope and should also strengthen the backbones of thosed faced with moves such as Jet*... A bit of resolve now will pay off in 12 months time...

splatgothebugs

10th Mar 2004, 06:06

Hey, would it be at all possible if someone could send me some info on dragon, requirements ect if you have some time.

Also a website might solve all of the above, cheers

splat :ok:

TIMMEEEE

10th Mar 2004, 09:49

Kaptin M - correct about the cost of training but when you talk about "the real jobs" I beg to differ.

Have quite a few friends out there with CX on the old A scale, as well as EK/BA/SQ etc that would give their left nad to be working and flying from Australia.
Earning good money in these places is one thing, but the cost of living coupled with family being some 10 hours away or further can and does put a strain on some marriages.

Working tours has knobs on it also in the long run.

The money is good but at the end of the day lifestyle is important and in most cases paramount to happiness.

My down point here is that with the added expense of training (to QF in this case), then some dingbat bean-counter will suggest that pilots be directly recruited into Australian Airlines rather than go through the Qantas system.

Money is great to have Kap M but at the end of the day I suppose it depends on whether the wife and kids are happy!!

REM

10th Mar 2004, 10:10

Spot on Timeee.
There are plenty of Aussies working for airlines overseas who would trade in the apparent high pay to return home in an instant. Life-style has a high premium.
The other thing that you find out o/s is that there is quite often no way of enforcing your legal rights, consequently pay and conditions can be changed at management's whim.
If anyone needs evidence, have a look at what is being said about EK on the Middle East forums. (And EK used to be the Holy Grail.

Ralph the Bong

10th Mar 2004, 10:26

10 years overseas and you can have all the Ozzie lifestyle you want. Guys who go to EK and Dragon for 15 years will come home as multi-millionaires as they pay no rent and stuff all or no tax. If you rent your house out in Oz and invest the proceeds, you come home to a very tidy sum. Combine that with the Golden Handshake when you leave these carriers, plus your super money growing in Oz and anything that you save after beer and smokes... I know a guy at Dragon who has bought 2 houses in Oz after two years in Hong Kong. His plan is buy 1 house a year. (15 years, 15 houses..). I do miss the Oz lifestle and would have given anthing for an early morning surf when I woke up today, but you can create a great lifestle here as well.

Kaptin M

10th Mar 2004, 12:46

"Life style" is something people with $$'s and free time think about - I'm not sure how many Aussie-employed pilots are in that position.
Possibly those who had worked o/s previously, but how many of the younger guys and girls who haven't are (in that position)?

You're possibly correct, REM, when you state, "There are plenty of Aussies working for airlines overseas who would trade in the apparent high pay to return home in an instant.", however it's more than likely that those Aussies have had the advantage of several years tax free salary, free accomodation (and utilities), and subsidised schooling for the brats, whilst renting out their home(s) in Oz.
The lifestyle THEY dream of is a far different one to that those working in Oz aspire to.

So in light of Scooter's opening post, my question is, are Australia's airlines setting themselves up as the bottom rung of Australian pilots' career ladder?
An entire working life as a pilot is not guaranteed - lifestyle might extend the Dollar days of those who will retire prematurely due to medical reasons - but it won't pay the bills.

I knew a guy (an F/O) in SQ who was doing the same thing as Ralph's mate.

oldhasbeen

10th Mar 2004, 13:25

Sorry to burst yu bubble bongman,but we do live in Aus,have 2 houses ( why you'd want 15 is beyond me ),the sun's shinin',the waters warm and I managed to get an early wave in this morning.Sure I don't get the dollars the boys are getting in HK ,but 'fraid you can't underestimate the value of a good lifestyle.:)
Have a good day where ever you maybe

The Messiah

10th Mar 2004, 14:10

What is it with everyone assuming people are in HK under duress?.......and that the lifestyle option means living in Oz?

CX do have bases in Oz.

I have a great lifestyle living on my boat, playing golf, skiing at Whistler, waterskiing and sometimes going back to Oz if I really have to.

Oh and when offered with a course date for QF I politely declined as I chose the lifestyle option, and kept my dreary spot in HK.

Its a big world out there and when I retire from work altogether ie 45yo, I won't be rushing back to Oz..........the South of France is more like it.

404 Titan

10th Mar 2004, 14:37

The Messiah

Couldn’t have put it better myself. Some people need to get a life before they make comments about others. Horses for course I say.

Ultra

10th Mar 2004, 14:45

I'm tired of hearing about the "great Aussie lifestyle". A resounding BS!!

How do you survive in any Aussie cap city on the salaries now proposed in the LCC regime, with family in tow?

Talk to the Virgin blokes about how much time they spend with their families in a week. Talk to the Regional drivers about how much spare dollars are left for a night out after working a month, or getting their garbo neighbour, who owns his home, to believe their payslip and why they can only afford to rent.

The great Aussie (aviation) lifestyle - what a croc ....

I'd give both nads and half the old fella for a job in some of these tax-free havens just for a little while - so I could catch up with the rest of the professional society.

Dexter

10th Mar 2004, 15:27

lifestyle in oz
yeh i get that 10 days strait in a month every month an then another 30 days a/l on top
an i put $15k in me pocket every month
work in australia? you jokin or wot!

GT-R

10th Mar 2004, 15:33

Okay well I hope you have all finished comparing penis size.

Scooter any chance of a few initials for the three confirmed you mentioned?

rtforu

10th Mar 2004, 16:28

Interesting topic, I think the Aus government are currently running a senate inquirey into why so many young Australians are moving off shore. Maybe a good hard look at the tax system might be a good starting point.

ftrplt

10th Mar 2004, 16:41

wouldnt want to give all the facts here would we.

I know 2 of the 3 in question applied to Dragonair years ago before AO even existed; caught up in the worldwide slowdown. I dont know when the 3rd applied.

One of them has stated that if he wasnt offered a job he wouldnt have minded so much as he was quite happy at AO. He was actually quite sad at leaving. One of the other is going because it suits his family situation to be based in Hong Kong.

Kaptin M, you regularly make the mistake of speaking for everybody with your wonderful wisdom. I am quite happy living in OZ earning the money I do. I have had my time overseas and dont wish to do it again. I have a REAL job; can buy a house and support my family. I am paid significantly more money in an Aussy airline that I was in the RAAF and working a whole lot less.

Each to their own; there are a thousand different reasons that people do the things they do. Its not always money!

Don Esson

10th Mar 2004, 16:41

It didn't take long for the young lads to realise how small a town Cairns really is. Are the FO's concerned some of the younger guys who were well down on the seniority list who received accelaretd training to take FO slots with Australian when the alternative was to remain at Qantas as SO's for much longer before promtion to FO? Nothing quite like ambition, and shows what smart and careful thinking can do.:cool: :cool: :ok:

oldhasbeen

10th Mar 2004, 16:59

Apologies to the Messiah.(He's not the real Messiah... he's just a very naughty boy!! )
I didn"t intend to infer that our mates in Honkers or the desert were there under duress.I have probably more mates in those airlines than I do here. The last sentence said it all.. wherever you are , for whatever reason,under whatever circumstance, just chill and enjoy it. Just like I keep telling my kids , you only live once and your maggot ****e for a hell of a lot longer so don't waste what you've got and don't fret for what you have'nt.
Have a good one.
Back for more Beam

The_Cutest_of_Borg

10th Mar 2004, 17:21

Don, I know one of the guys is an ex-AN 767 FO. Can't speak for the other two but this guy would have been an FO till the cows come home in QF mainline due to a very low seniority number.

rockarpee

10th Mar 2004, 17:54

So people, what is the "Aust dollar value", of working/Living in Oz/NZ. It would have to be worth more than 100 grand extra,IN THE POCKET, for me to live in Hongkers or some Arab state.And I guess here lies the problem.......The financial sacrifices one makes to live here in Oz, because ,despite what some have to say, tis a great place to live!!!!! :D

AirNoServicesAustralia

10th Mar 2004, 18:05

Ok not a pilot but a controller working in the UAE, but very similair situation to the expat pilots. Tax free pay, medical cover paid for by company, school paid for for my two kids at a top notch private school, furnished accomodation paid for (ok its a 3 BR flat not a house, but pros and cons), return flight to oz paid for each year, water, electricity and telephone rent paid for, 8 weeks leave per year, and a nice golden handshake when I leave. I say that if you take the blinkers off and realise there is a great world out there, you can spend 5-10 years O/S and well and truly set yourself up.

I can understand the whole family happiness thing being a consideration, but for the life of me I can't understand why a single bloke who is a pilot or controller, would not take the opportunity to live overseas for 10 years, have the time of their life, make great friends, drink way too much beer, and go home with wads of cash.

Anyway each to their own.

itchybum

10th Mar 2004, 19:28

TWO KIDS.................. ??????? :confused: ;)

redsnail

10th Mar 2004, 20:59

UK ain't tax free. Not all of us can work in the Middle east.

FlexibleResponse

10th Mar 2004, 21:25

Australian Airlines exodus of pilots to Dragonair
"If they you paid them what they are worth, they wouldn't be leaving." DFO of CX in telephone conversation with the Chief of Personnel RAAF 1987.

The DFO's comment still seems to be somewhat relevant, albeit in a slightly different context....

To my mind, Kaptin M's comments are also accurate. It's difficult to convey how rewarding an expat pilot job can be when talking to someone who has not experienced it.

Jet_A_Knight

10th Mar 2004, 23:42

Regional pilots wage in Sydney?? try it on a GA WAGE:{

spinout

11th Mar 2004, 03:52

DRAGONAIR have a new training company based in Sydney it’s called JETSTAR!

RaTa

11th Mar 2004, 04:08

spinout

I think you have hit the nail on the head......but those real sharp execs. of Jetstar don't see a problem, after all the planes come with the training for the Impulse guys and the rest buy their own endorsements!

Gnadenburg

11th Mar 2004, 08:48

Fortune favours the brave - ballsy move by the gentleman concerned.

Aviation a funny thing too. Maybe, just maybe, Dragonair will be a quicker route to a Sydney based 330 Command or F/O slot than Australian Airlines!:p

A handful of Ansett pilots noted writing on the wall. The rot started with Kendell's CRJs and an indifferent union-sound familar? Anyway, they pulled the pin months before the collapse, didn't swim with all the rats post collapse and Sept 11, and most achieved rapid command promotons.

With globalisation occurring quicker in aviation than other industries, slow promoting, career airlines such as QF may be foolish places to be.

stillalbatross

14th Mar 2004, 18:32

Paid scant attention to the API back when I was living downunder. There is a very good reason why you are paid good money to work in Hong Kong.

Iakklat

15th Mar 2004, 09:10

Smartest move these guys could have made.
With the cancer spreading rapidly in Australian Aviation with the likes of Vb,Jetstar and the kiwi low cost carriers flying the tasman, any opportunity to work for overseas carriers that will put you in a far superior financial position is well worth taking.
Lifetsyle in Oz working for Vb- you have got to be joking!!!!
The career progression that is offered overseas also has it all over flogging around Australia in a 737 for little or next to no coin. :O :O

rtforu

17th Mar 2004, 01:58

Well said Iakklat! All this BS about the so called great life style in Australia, please, give it a break folks! Nothing wrong with Aus but it's no better than most places around the globe. The people who seem to have the most problems as expats are the ones who keep looking over their shoulders. As for thre low cost operators, if they are going to exploit pilots then it only makes sense that pilots should exploit them.

oicur12

17th Mar 2004, 09:19

"With globalisation occurring quicker in aviation than other industries, slow promoting, career airlines such as QF may be foolish places to be."

Gnad, what a load of malarky.

Have you heard of the IASC?

Do you know how hard it is for non nationals to get work rights in Oz?

How many foreign owned and operated airlines are permitted to fly domestic sectors freely within Oz?

How many local pilots do QF have based in Manilla or Bangkok?

These are barriers that no longer impede many other industries from globalising thier business and operations - hope like hell the airline industry doesnt globalise like some others already have.

Wizofoz

17th Mar 2004, 10:32

How many foreign owned and operated airlines are permitted to fly domestic sectors freely within Oz?

Err..Actually...

Any who want to as much as they want to...

TIMMEEEE

17th Mar 2004, 23:16

Well said Iakklat! All this BS about the so called great life style in Australia, please, give it a break folks!
Sounds like bitter words.

RTFORU/Iakklat - I have to disagree with you here lads.
I've just spent some time in Asia and the middle east visiting friends working for a few different airlines that offer a career - not just a contract.

The resounding opinion of those that have spent much time in those countries is that they are not truely happy there - they are just there for the money and the simple fact that they were offered a job in those countries and not Australia which suited them at that time.

They dont enjoy their lifestyles that much but they earn good money, have nice cars/properties etc, live in what are considered affluent areas and socialise primarily with other airline staff.
At every available opportunity they get out of those places and either come back to Oz for a stint or holiday somewhere briefly.
Thats their saving grace.

One mate who has spent a long time in the desert gave a good quote.
"I live a one of the wealthiest states but consider myself a second class citizen in whats effectively a third world country in terms of legal rights".

Some guys that went overseas some time back reackoned they would do it for 5 or 10 years tops then come home.
That was 15-20 years ago!
Young guys just starting out are enjoying themselves but the novelty hasnt quite worn off.
The jury is still out on those guys.

For some that go overseas and things dont go quite to plan (career/family/health etc) or they are not really happy, then matters are compounded by being a long way from home.

The opinion of 4 different friends and their wives after much time in the desert and asia is that they would be home in a flash if they were offered a job flying reasonable equipment in their port of choice.

As for the Australian lifestyle guys, just woke up and went down the beach for a surf (2 mins away), had a cuppa and breakfast in a cafe with a few schoolmates and watched the waves roll in from the pacific ocean.
Playing golf this arvo, taking the dog for a run then going to visit the family farm down the coast tonight after a 2 hour country drive.
Catching up with some mates at the old local tomorrow night for a good steak and a few bottles of red.

No - its not fiction.
Yes - I am bloody fortunate to be able to do these things and get paid reasonably well to support my very basic lifestyle.
I consider myself blessed.

All I can say is that if I were to go overseas the money would have to be a whole lot more than Emirates/Singapore/Japan/Dragon/Cathay/Gulf Air are paying in order to compensate.

Rockarpee hit the nail on the head when he said "what price do you put on living in Australia/NZ."

If the money and lifestyle were that great then these companies would be beseiged by applications and the Oz airlines would have to employ from elsewhere.

RTFORU - you may have made the right decision for you and are happy which is great, but dont go rubbishing Australia or our lifestyle which in my opinion is second to none.
The weather is great, the skies are clear and everyone speaks our language (taxi drivers and convenience store owners are exempt here).
Feel free however to rubbish our politicians at any time!!

In a world gone mad there is nowhere else I'd rather be.

IAKLATT - my mates in VB based in Brisbane and Melbourne are doing just fine raising their families and living in nice homes on what you describe "for no coin".
They have enough to live on and enjoy their lifestyle choice.
Perhaps you'd like to tell us where you are working, for whom, what you earn and how you spend your time?

As a famous individual once wrote "Home is where your family is".
No truer words.

Oz Ocker

18th Mar 2004, 00:43

Yeah - an maybe it's cos none of youse could get those high payin' bl@@dy jobs overseas!!
They figger they're left with the rejects here in good ol' Ozzie, so why pay 'em the big bucks!

After all's said n done, the flyin' here is pretty piss easy so far as the weathers concerned. Just ave a read of old TIMMEE'S last post - givin 'is dog a run this mornin' an 'e'll probly give the ferret a run tonite if 'e's lucky!

Still, long as you blokes keep signin up evry time they chuck out a handfull of chicken pellets, they keep a few more fer them selves next time round, jest to see how many more suckers jump in.
Seems like its only the pilots who can live cheaper - ya don't see too many of them fat@rse lawyers or acountants gettin their pay slashed just cause they live in Ozzie.
Bit ard to edumacate the sprogs on lifestyle tho', and a lot bl@@dy harder to pay orf a house morgage an retire on it.
Any of youse ever tried sellin that lifestyle to pay ya hospital bills?

Be seein' youse round.

Karunch

18th Mar 2004, 01:45

Oicur, its not the Thai's or Phillipino's the Qf pilots need beware, its the low cost Australian labour force 'just getting some jet experience' that pose a greater danger. Gnadenburg is spot on, those without qualifications and experience (ie the 10 year Qf f/o) in a rapidly changing evironment risk being left behind. Qf has clearly become simply a job, not a career, as evidenced by the departure of the more astute players.

Timmee, there are far more rewarding places to live & work offshore than the desert I can assure you. Perhaps you should increase your sample size before drawing conclusions, the results may surprise you. Reference the lifestyle issue, I went for a run in the foothills this morning, meeting a schoolmate for lunch (most of my schoolmates enjoy the higher offshore income as well) and off to look at Ferrari's this afternoon (Modena prices are starting to come down). I doubt I'll bump into any Qf/ Vb guys there though. A good lifestyle is not an Australian exclusive, Cheers,

TIMMEEEE

18th Mar 2004, 03:22

Karunch........ great having a Ferrari but having both the long and challenging roads to drive it on are just as important.
Country roads are also great which are somewhat lacking where you are.
Ditto the racetrack where you can pay a few bucks and go mental without worrying about the cops.

Not only did I reference the desert but also 2 places in Asia, one of which I know for a fact you are familiar!!
Secondly these guys have all been there for over 10 years as opposed to yourself that have only been in Asia for 2 years if that.

I'll ask you again in 10 or so years what are your thoughts.

As for me.......I'm off for a leisurely drive old son!!

The Messiah

18th Mar 2004, 04:02

TIMMEEE as I said earlier CX do have bases in Oz which trade off so called lifestyle for income, but not many takers.

As for saying if expat lifestyle was such a great option Oz airlines would have no-one and have to employ from overseas? CX currently have more Ozzie pilots than any other nationality, and they are only the ones who were accepted. You don't just phone a company like CX or Emirates and say 'ok I'll take that job now thanks'. The recruitment files are full of Ozzies crying to get up here but these companys have the luxury of choosing from all over the world, and they do.

If you're happy with your lot, good for you, 'cause I'm also very happy with mine. Living outside my comfort zone has been very good for my personal development.

The above is not opinion but the facts as I know them and TIMMEEE I'm not interested in comparing who's better off, 'cause it sounds like we'd only ever tie.

Karunch

18th Mar 2004, 04:22

Timmee, perhaps you should go back to the topic- it is Australian pilots going to Dragonair, not vice versa. Don't bother asking me in ten years, I'll be retired by then, Cheers

TIMMEEEE

18th Mar 2004, 05:47

The Messiah - very true.
The fact that there arent many takers emphasises their priority for money over lifestyle.
Would be great working for CX based in Oz and a great trade-off in my opinion.
Great for young guys doing a command and being based at foreign ports where they can experience not only the flying but broaden their horizons also.
Would have loved to have done a short stint in the US or UK.

Karunch - cheers old son.
Just conveying my opinion and mine only.Everyone is different and so too are their individual circumstances.
You made the right move for yourself and at the right time.
Very astute and great timing I might add.

I too hope you are retired in 10 years or so and sounds like a great plan.We should be so lucky.

As I mentioned in my post that my mates in Dubai,HK and Bahrain said all those years ago - they were only going to be there for 10 years max.That was 15 years ago!!
Some are sending their families home and they will probably follow in the near future as they are dedicated family men.

Horses for courses as the man said.

I just hope that the individuals leaving Oz for HK have made the right decision and that themselves and their respective families are both happy and successful.

Skypatrol

18th Mar 2004, 05:59

Always an interesting debate this one, but as said, it's horses for courses! The money on offer o/s is extremely tempting, but compared with lifestyle choices in Oz, it's obviously a personal decision.

The Oz aviation scene would be most interesting if CX, EK, SQ, etc.. all set up aussie bases, then we may see the Oz airlines treating their drivers a bit better!! A 777 slot in EK would be irresistable!

Personally, nothing beats the aussie beaches, mates and weather, although the women could be improved on!!! :D

ftrplt

18th Mar 2004, 06:48

I cant believe this has gone on for 3 pages.

Everyone does things for their own reasons, and there are hundreds of them. Its not always lifestyle, money or career.

One of the reasons I hear that the Aus basings for Cathay (FO's anyway) arent popular is that they need to go back to HK for a command. All of the ones I know would love to be back but wont for that reason.

The Messiah

18th Mar 2004, 07:52

TIMMEEE you don't seem to get it old mate. Lifestyle is a relative term, and just 'cause you like to surf in the morning and go to your local coffee shop doesn't mean everyone does.

I have not traded any lifestyle for money. Having money gives me the lifestyle I want. There is no trade off, do you get it? I left Oz by choice, not 'cause this was the only job on offer.

The saying is
'the world is your oyster' , not 'Australia is your oyster' .

Kaptin M

18th Mar 2004, 08:52

Short post ftrplt, but there's a lot in the one line you posted:
"Everyone does things for their own reasons, and there are hundreds of them. Its not always lifestyle, money or career."

In a nutshell, it seems that this topic has broadly determined why pilots prefer to work/live in Oz or o/s.

Oz pro's
LIFESTYLE
Career airline

Oz cons
Low salary
Slow career advancement
Possibility of drastically altered employment conditions
The beer/beaches/women/shopping is better in Bali..Waikiki..Redondo...

Overseas pro's
BIG salary+benefits (= earlier/wealthier retirement)
Possibility of accelerated (above Oz employed airline pilots) promotions > BIGGER salaries....newer/newest type ratings

Overseas cons
Missing out on the everyday, great Aussie lifestyle
No guaranteed employment - after all, you're only there because there weren't enough "locals" at the time!
The beer/beaches/women/ shops just aren't as good as you find in Oz.

404 Titan

18th Mar 2004, 09:42

ftrplt
One of the reasons I hear that the Aus basings for Cathay (FO's anyway) arent popular is that they need to go back to HK for a command. All of the ones I know would love to be back but wont for that reason.
You only have to come back to Hong Kong for twelve months. If you get your command on the right aircraft, i.e. A330 then you can reapply for a base after that time. The real reason bases aren’t very popular with FO’s is because the pay is S**T. It is less than the equivalent QF pay after tax thanks to the change in the tax ruling by the ATO. The tax department thought they were smart but all it resulted in was that most on the bases gave them up and returned to Hong Kong. They now get no income tax or GST. Very smart of the ATO if you ask me. No wonder there is a senate enquiry going at the moment trying to understand why so many bright Australian are leaving Australia for jobs overseas. The answer is very simple. The pay in Aus is crap and the taxes are the second highest in the world. Fix those and some of us may return. Don’t and continue watching the intellectual draining of this once great country to the rest of the world. :yuk:

QFandlovinIT

18th Mar 2004, 09:54

Must admit, a fair few guys are talking about the dragon and cathay. Interesting. But nothing beats home with the barbie, mind you the pay????????????

hmmmmmm

JY9024

18th Mar 2004, 13:19

My family and I have been in HK now for a couple of years and to be quite honest wouldn't even consider a return to Aus at the moment.
Lifestyle is all about what makes you content with your "individual needs" and we as a family are very happy with what HK has to offer.
I can give my kid's a good education plus the experience of living o.s while still having Aus only a 9 hour flight away for when they want to catch up with family.
All I would say is until I came here I was an Australian Lifestyle person as well but since comming here, not one person that I have met has left yet by choice, and that's not just pilots but other expats as well.
With commands at KA less than 2 years, it's not a bad career choice, when you see whets happening with the "lifestyle Jobs" in Aus.
BTW, had a great steak on the BBQ tonight and followed up with a couple of icy cold VB stubbies as well.

Cheers.

itchybum

18th Mar 2004, 13:37

Don’t and continue watching the intellectual draining of this once great country Hahahahaahaaaaaa ! ! !

Sorry, couldn't help it. I thought you meant pilots but realise you surely meant the wider professional community. Even though I, myself, am a pilot, the first take on that statement gave rise to unqualified mirth! :D

:E

TIMMEEEE

19th Mar 2004, 05:21

There is no trade off, do you get it? I left Oz by choice, not 'cause this was the only job on offer.

The Messiah - no need to get defensive pal!
I didnt make any reference to you personally but to others I do know!
I dont know you or your circumstances but was simply replying to some that seem to think the lifestyle and freedoms we enjoy in Australia are a joke which is far from the truth.

My lifestyle works for me and is something I value with great respect and appreciation.I'm not going to get into comparing lifestyles because in the end we may as well drop our dacks and compare sizes!!
Yes - I do wake up in the mornings and thank God for good weather and a stable country that affords me numerous opportunities both inside and out of work.
Similarly others out there are the same.

Sure - some in Oz and in the aviation industry aren't that well off,
I'll grant you that.
But on the whole for others to call what Qantas pay "a joke" and refer to the VB guys as working for "no coin" is way off base.

Seeing mates getting sent on extended leave and offered reduced conditions in HK when SARS hit gave me no joy, as did seeing other mates have their contracts cancelled overseas for either reasons political or economic.

As JFK said people, we all inhabit the same earth and we all breath the same air.
Like it or not we are all in the same industry and enjoy the rights and privileges they offer - lifestyle being one of them one way or the other as we choose fit by being based where we are.

Anyone else want to take a swing at me or is a beer the order of the day??

404 Titan

19th Mar 2004, 05:53

TIMMEEEE
Seeing mates getting sent on extended leave and offered reduced conditions in HK when SARS hit gave me no joy
Yes but in December when it was obvious SARS was behind us, we got the unpaid leave paid back plus two weeks bonus. So in essence we got paid for an extra three weeks leave last year and then got a two week bonus. If SARS was centered on Australia, what do you think QF or DJ would have done. Remember we had our loads drop from 40000 + per day to about 5000 and we parked 1/3 of our fleet.

gliderboy

19th Mar 2004, 06:07

Question:

If everyone loves their "lifestyles" so much (particularly the outdoor stuff), why are so many of you spending so much time on your computers??????????????

Beer Can Dreaming

19th Mar 2004, 07:46

SARS and the like give me the heebee jeebees.
We got out of it lightly last time round.Reackon next time we maightnt be so lucky.All we needed was a mutation of the virus and it would have been a different story.
Still amazing how things turn around and how airlines have modified their forward planning.

404 Titan

19th Mar 2004, 08:58

Beer Can Dreaming

Unfortunately you too have fallen for the media hype this thing generated. The reality of the situation was that it wasn’t very infectious at all and had a mortality rate less than normal Pneumonia. Every year in Hong Kong 30000 people die from Pneumonia while SARS only killed 299. If we all constantly worried about what diseases could kill us we wouldn’t leave our house, mind you the number of things that could kill you in your own house is staggering.

404 Titan

19th Mar 2004, 12:22

fire wall

Yeh, that was meant to be 3000, sorry. I have heard the same said about the cocktail of drugs and that they could have had a lot to do with the death rate here compared to other countries including China. If this is the case the mortality rate would have been even lower. Maybe just above the common flue.

Australia2

25th Mar 2004, 16:07

GT-R,

Just curious, as an interested party to this topic what difference would initials of those concerned have made ?

Curious .......

rtforu

26th Mar 2004, 03:22

Hey TIMEEE, glad to hear you are enjoying life mate. Yes Aus can offer a great life style, but so can many other places. There are great beaches in other parts of the world together with great people, great wine and all the other things that make our lives so pleasant. Aus, nice place that it is, is not the only place to offer these pleasures!

As for your suggestion that I am rubbishing Aus, I fail to see how you came to that conclusion.

Finally let me say this, being an Australian, I will always defend my right to bl##dywell say whatever I want about my own country, good or bad. The day we all stop doing that is the day we will be in trouble!

Anyway hope you enjoyed the bottle of red

RT

Whiskery

26th Mar 2004, 08:32

Get yourself based somewhere where you pay NO tax or minimal tax - say 15% or less.

A radius of no more than 12 hours by air to Oz.

Save every dollar, dinar and pound you can and invest them in the money market or futures.

Then retire at 55 years of age and come back to Oz and fly your last 5 years with Virgin or JetStar.

Don't worry about the tax in your last 5 years, the way things are headed, you won't be earning enough to get you into the tax paying threshold. :ok:

Soulman

26th Mar 2004, 11:51

Well, as an aspiring 17 year old in rural Victoria, I'd just like to add that I'm enjoying my flight training at the moment. Yes, one day I hope to make it to the big league - but right now, I think I'll settle for my current lifestyle... school, mates, flying and socialising.

Beats the hell out of arguing about who lives in the better house or the better economy.

What I'm trying to say is - sure I might only be young - but I know if you're happy with where you are, why bother arguing about it?

Go spend time enjoying your lifestyle instead of wasting it.

Soulman.

itchybum

26th Mar 2004, 14:19

I know if you're happy with where you are, why bother arguing about it? Because that's what the die-hards in D&G like to spend their time doing.

Gnadenburg

27th Mar 2004, 02:10

Back to the topic at hand.

Qantas pilots, despite their groanings, have historically been ready to undercut themselves. Remember the S/O's a few years ago accepting B scale domestic conditions, domestic 767 drivers not doing that much better than VB drivers, Australian Airlines ( most guys I knew spent their GA lives trying to escape Cairns ) and now, it would seem, QF pilots are bending over collectively to accept Jetstar "opportunities".

Up north, Dragonair ordered 7 A330's last week with industry rumours suggesting half a dozen 747's aswell-passenger or freight? Rumoured Sydney bases and quick commands.

Despite the discomfort it may cause their former colleagues, the Qantas pilots joining Dragonair may be thinking outside the square.

Whiskery

I agree but would 1- Prefer property

2- Never work for VB or Jetstar.

'Woods a little tired last night? Made Richardson look like half a footballer.

Soulman

You will fly jet airliners one day. Most do. But conditions have halved in 10 years and not likely to improve.

Not important to you now, but the first air hostess you ask out may make more money than you!

Oicur

If you aren't observing globalisation I can't help you. That the quickest way to long haul command and an Australian base, may be through a foreign airline, as opposed QF, one inkling.

No, QF are not employing cheap foreign pilots to cut costs. Foreign airlines are employing cheap Australian pilots to compete with QF, basing these guys in Australia-SQ,CX and more to follow.