Qantas FO's and SO's-Jetstar - cont`d [Archive]

Clive

8th Mar 2004, 08:22

You're right Kaptin it is indeed way to important. However sadly (for them) I think it is all too late for the boys at QF.

I am convinced that the bulk of the QF guys would be taking comfort in the premise "she'll be right..... can't happen to us.... this is Qantas.... etc, etc". In other words similar rhetoric heard at AN before 2001. The writing is not just on the wall, it has been given a coat of protective sealant by now.

If my experience with the AIPA (re: Jetconnect) is anything to go by then I am sure that this toothless tiger may roar but will not bite. The vast majority of us who went on contract with AWAS in NZ, when it all began in 2000, were pretty sure we were only on a short term contract. The money was good, conditions great (a hallmark of AWAS - rest its soul).

When QF tookover and the pay and conditions went into a flat spin I personally contacted the AIPA to make sure they knew what was happening with what was ostensibly their flying. The silence was deafening and the arrogance frightening. "We are not interested" was the sum of the conversation. Guess with the impending move to management it was hard to be interested in much at that time.

Right again Kap..... the Oldmeadow factor is HUGE and yes I am sure a few desperate souls without work since 2001 will indeed make themselves available. However I must dispute the 200 figure offered by Thumbs Up. The vast majority have well paid jobs at reasonably commutable distances from home to want to return for those kind of pay and conditions.

proplever

8th Mar 2004, 08:41

However sadly (for them) I think it is all too late for the boys at QF.

This is not directed at you Clive, because you make some interesting, relevant points.

But the common thread amongst everyone here is that QF pilots are alone in this problem of reduced conditions.

We ARE NOT ALONE! This affects everyone in the Australian Aviation industry! When will you people wake up and realise what is happenning here!

This cannot be blamed on "market forces" or "greedy management"! This is our fault! And unless we as pilots STOP the rot it, will continue.

People like Impulse not only offering themselves for slave wages, but leaping hand over fist for it is destroying our profession!

When is this going to STOP?

Think I need a nice cuppa tea and a lie down now.....

drshmoo

8th Mar 2004, 09:34

Is it true that NSW Bus drivers get more than a Jet* F/O's? Or Just a furfy.
It seems that if you are a Dash driver for Qlink, if you wish to move onto a Jet (if that is your goal) then Virgin or overseas is your only chance. Will The non Impulse Qlink drivers be eligible for Jetstar or will they encounter that whole double training too expensive problem.

Queentual

8th Mar 2004, 10:05

Some hard facts:

The aircraft refueller, tug driver and foreman earn more that a Jetstar Captain. Maybe this is why they are operating to Avalon etc, so they dont need to use a tug driver. If you get the F/O to drive the tug 2 days/week and refuel the aircraft Jetstar will save a fortune. Good on ya IPG guys for accepting such an embarrasing deal.

Gnadenburg

8th Mar 2004, 10:52

Chimbu Chuckles

I imagine that there are half a dozen airlines that are not impressed with ex-AN 320 drivers. The reason being they lasted under a year at most, before flocking to the better jobs.

Silk Air, Qatar Airways, Gulf Air, EVA & CAL are now not meeting expansion rates, or just parking aircraft, due expending their training resources and not being able to keep crew. Not only is it ex-AN crew voting with their feet though.

Thumbs Up

F/O's or Junior 320 Captains not in Dragonair, Cathay or Emirates would probably want to come home for a Jetstar.

Personally, aswell as in discussion with former AN colleagues abroad, Jetstar not a pretty picture. We were getting paid what a Impulse Captain does almost 10 years ago- as F/O's. Consider inflation and the roaring nineties housing boom. Aswell as the hum-ho nature of domestic flying in an Easyjet ( four sectors a day ) mould.

Somebody else can have a life of financial servitude in Sunbury or Broadmeadows.

And I did hear a third ex-AN 320 pilot just appointed to the Jetstar management team. Aswell as there being 40 Direct Entry slots being available. Jetstar 340's murmurred too.

Still, no matter the creed or colour, most professional pilots abroad shaking their heads at the way Australian pilots-VB,QF,Jetstar-undercut each other so willingly.

D Rate

8th Mar 2004, 11:23

fellas,

Since when were the brighest sparks employed by IPG. People slang off at Virgin but the IPG paid for endorsements long before Virgin started charging for the privilege. Maybe that's because many of em' couldn't get into the Q, AN etc.

Having said that they are J Star.

Nobody is gunna unite, whilst there are people who think pilots are overpaid, particularly in Mainline. What the dic*head bean counters don't get is that you do not pay pilots for 99% of the flying, but rather the 1% when it all goes wrong......You get what you pay for:E

In essence it is done, the IPG think they have it in the bag. You cant blame them, the sad thing is they aren't the brighest globes in the box.

They have as a result of a founded fear(regarding job loss) exposed themselves to management as insecure wannabe Qantas pilots. Let em be, many of them are the guys who wore uniforms around the shops when they worked in GA!!!!

I do not share the notion of an AIPA president who does the negotiation for the pilot group. I don't care how good he thinks he is, sadly pilots should stick to what they do best...fly aircraft. Get an industrial advocate on the payroll of the union, who doesnt have a cyclic every 3 months and who fights because he is paid by the guys he represents.An appropiriately briefed and well versed repsresentative can exert a great deal more pressure than a line Captain who is paid by the company but works for the union because (as a majority of the com do) they want to give something back....

you know I worked in finance, did pretty good analysis of financials..That was a long time ago. Now I fly planes, get an advocate who is a heavy and if the company wants to tender as though we are blue collar, then lets be blue collar..Where is the TWU?

Want to unite the pilot group......Get the Eastern, Southern, and Sunstate guys n girls under one banner and then add the Virgin guys and gals...Do that and we got a stalemate :ok: That leads to negotiation.

As i said before we should as pilots do the flying and leave the negotiation to the heavies....Where is the TWU!!!

Col. Walter E. Kurtz

8th Mar 2004, 13:26

What have mainline and their representatives done to defend their position or 'remedy' the situation?

Frankly, the idea of having a National Pilots Union representing ALL Australia's pilots is at least a start; not to mention using 'blue collar' tactics?

proplever

8th Mar 2004, 18:18

Sounds like a good idea, D Rate. Get all the pilots n the country under one banner, except those who have shown an incredible willingness to undercut the final bastion of "decent" pay in this country (read IPG).

Then leave them to rot. What goes 'round as they say....

Rostov

8th Mar 2004, 19:28

Sound's great proplever!
Why don't you start it up!
What'chya gunna call it?
How exciting! Can you be chief negotiator? Pleeeaaase you have such a great way of expressing yourself!!
wow I'm so excited I think I need an asprin.:ok: You da man. I think this industry needs you to lead us all!
VOTE 1 PROPLEVER

Next Generation

8th Mar 2004, 19:49

Proploser

You are your own worst enemy.

Mr. Hat

8th Mar 2004, 20:15

Will Pilots ever unite in this country?

It seems impossible just by reading forums of pages and pages of bickering and name calling.

And in the meantime accountants can't believe their luck! Its perfect.

Very sad. But a the end of the day it starts with the bottom levels of GA - (buy 150 hours ICUS) and ends with salaries of professional people being halved.:( . What other profession has had their money halved in the past 3 years?

The only way it will ever change is if all the name calling and tit for tat ends and people sit down and have a resonable rational conversation with one another.

At the moment if you knock back a flying job for what ever reason you will cause absolutley no problem to anyone apart from yourself. The reason being that there are 1000 people that will do it instead. The reason behind this is that their are too many students being pumped out. The numbers need to be capped. It needs to get a lot harder to get a CPL. Why do bus drivers get paid better than some airline pilots? Because there ain't that many people that want to do the job. How many people go "wow he's a bus driver unreal" not many - a few sure. Lots of people want to fly planes and this is where the problem starts.

If you don't control the student numbers (like in medicine) then you have not a hope in hell of controlling salaries unless of course you have an extreemly united front.

Best of luck guys. We are all watching over here in GA.

My 2 cents worth.
Mr. Hat

Keg

8th Mar 2004, 20:43

You've got to be kidding NG.

Originally posted by Next Generation:
Proploser

You are your own worst enemy.

'Independant audits' have shown you to be exactly the same thing- except in your case NG, it's to remind us that you make grand standing, groundless statements and contribute little to the discussion except to 'play the man'. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just when we think that you've taken the hint, you stick your head up and make a goose of yourself again! :p

Prop,
Whilst I know the pain, it's time to let the water go under the bridge. If we ostracise any part of the aviation community, we just set ourselves up for the same thing to happen again in the future. We MUST accept that what the IPG did was a result of inaccurate and insufficient information- some through no fault of their own and others by their omission- and resolve now to structure pilot associations in this country so that it can NOT happen again. This means accepting guys like the IPG for what they are- professional pilots.

It's time to get BEHIND the AIPA pres on his efforts. Who knows how the AusALPA will turn out but we can not afford to be alienating other professional pilots in this industry because we'll spiral down to nothing. We already have F/Os on good equipment (like the Dash) earning less than F/As. Let's band together NOW to stop the rot and ensure that we ALL get decent conditions. The more we keep poking our tongues out at each other, the more the management of the airlines laugh themselves stupid at ALL of us.

Lets work together. It's the ONLY hope this profession has in Australia :ok:

?...

8th Mar 2004, 22:53

I LOVE BEING A PILOT. It makes me feel in despair when I see what's happening in the very place I aspire to be one day.

I will however say that the problems at the top end aren't isolated, in fact it's industry wide with the roots of the problem being from the moment someone wants to be a pilot.

The mentality that is prevalent throughout the industry that perversely intrudes into every pilot's life is that he is dispensable. He is a nobody that CAN AND WILL be replaced with someone that can do it cheaper. This is especially prevalent today and will only get worse with business bottom lines growing in importance.

Mr Hat's got the idea, it's obvious he is seeing the "Big Picture" and unfortunately not too many people do. It's far too easy to be a pilot. I'll go one step closer to a solution. It should be made like most other professions and require a uni degree to begin with. That'll sought out a heap of people way before they start chewing up the precious job positions and the hours they go through until they decide to pack it in, which makes it that much harder for the rest of us. But that's not the end of it.

I recall someone mentioning that a degree in life is all that’s required. Totally true, emotional and social understanding combined with life’s setbacks are required and do provide positive character building. Someone who is given everything and gives nothing is emotionally empty and will never succeed in life anyway. But who can honestly put their hands up and say the set backs that we experience in aviation are remotely justified. It just makes people more pessimistic and desperate to do anything to keep their jobs!

Times have changed. The world is changing and yet the aviation industry and a lot of those that are in it at large in Australia still hold on to that lets get pi$$ed and go bush and do the hard yards just like I had to mentality. A moment of caution here, not to detract and pay any disrespect to those that have done it hard and made it to airlines or even those that were pioneers, Reverend John Flynn as an example. However in today’s world if you want to be a professional airline pilot from now on you should require the groundings that most professions require. That'll definitely sought at least half of the wannabes out. Hell, cap the maximum amount of successful applicants. Just watch how quick the industry shapes up when faced with a shortage of pilots!!!!!! Give it 7 years max and everyone in the top end will have some real bargaining power. What about those that miss out? Well to be blunt about it, maybe amongst other things they should've tried harder at school. You can do anything you put your mind to and I will always stand by that conviction. If you haven't made up your mind that you want to be a pilot by end of school then obviously the romantic idea of a pilot wasn't that high up your agenda in the first place and maybe it should be left to those that have wanted this from their first memory. Keep in mind the long goal and how this will benefit everyone in the end.

Unions. Apparanently they only exist in airlines. Every pilot, especially those in GA should be part of one (for the moment, as past history shows, an in-grained and over powerful union movement can actually have a damaging effect) That'll give them the stance and confidence they need to say, and without fear, that I’m a professional, and as such should earn a full time wage for an honest days work. This should be at all stages in the industry from the very first day a pilot is employed regardless of the fact of his experience.

The above are only a few of my thoughts on the matter and of course a far more detailed look into the industry needs to be made by both the regulators and those in government. Why the hell should those in GA have to crawl their way to the top only to be slapped in the face again just when they think they've made it?! :confused: :confused:

proplever

9th Mar 2004, 04:32

Well, these's a graphic demonstration. Nice one NG and Rostov. They believe they are making fun of me, and undermining what I say.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

Opposite is about right. Fellas, you have made jokes of yourselves. Now how 'bout debating the topic, in a mature and rational way, without playing the man.

Gee, you might even win some respect that way.

ur2

9th Mar 2004, 07:33

Just ask some of the older guys in QF, why they didn't help us during the dispute of 1989.
Their silence was deafening. I guess its all comming home to roost now.

Lazarus

9th Mar 2004, 07:58

Ever read a book called "Animal Farm".

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

It seems some still harbour such prejudice beliefs. To unite we must brush these aside. However, to really fix the problem we have to go to the source. While there are too many pilots to fill positions in this industry we'll always have this undercutting happening. The number of cpl trainees needs to be capped. But this is unfair to the flying schools who have worked hard and stayed tight to make a profit. Perhaps a buy back scheme of AOC's (in the same way as the Botany Bay fishing licenses have been reduced). Or limit the issue of new Flying Training AOC's.

There's a number of ways this can be done but only a united workforce can seek to achieve the best result for us all over the long term.

It would also be prejudice to say that how much i get paid determines how professional i am. For example, professional tennis players get paid a lot more than professinal Hockey players but are no less of a professional athlete.

live long and prosper

FatEric

9th Mar 2004, 10:50

Chimbu,

Gosh. Where do you work? Eva? Silkair? SQ? Vietnam? Pacific? Brunei? China Air?

Yep, Ex Ansett guys are really struggling with the high standards of Asia.

How blunt is your axe?

To limit the number of AOC?fs or pilot licenses issued within the industry is to ignore the market forces that bought you mobile phones and DVD players.

I hope the person proposing such outdated practices is happy using their gramophone and carrier pigeon.

Pete Conrad

9th Mar 2004, 12:41

We can debate the issue till the cows come home - but the fact is - we are progressively getting sold out by management to scabs that will work for peanuts when there is absolutely no basis and no reason given the profits QF make and will continue to make. Impulse went squealing to QF and begged for mercy - FACT - and played right into the hands of GD.

Now we are all staring down the barrel of lower conditions of service thanks to a toothless union, uncaring management a shortsighted pilot group.

34R

9th Mar 2004, 16:17

Kind of ironic that the time honoured method of years out bush in GA, working for peanuts (and sometimes for peanuts) may have in some way leant itself to this dilema of pilots all too quickly accepting fantastic flying jobs with somewhat lower conditions.

?...
How arrogant of you to imply that someone who didnt start their flying until later in life, rather than fresh out of high school, in some way has missed their chance and shouldn't join the clutter of aspiring airline pilots. From my earliest memory I wanted to fly, however financial constraints can restrict many, and I worked damned hard to start as late as I did. Very narrow minded pal...

Kaptin M

9th Mar 2004, 16:22

Whichever way this now goes, it is going to be - in the words of one, J. Strong - another "watershed for Australia's airlines".

Unless you Q guys can quickly get your act together,and realise that unity (of ALL pilots employed by QANTAS) is your strongest defence against a greedy, ruthless adversary, then you had best start planning how you are going to pay your kids' school fees, home mortgages, and plans for the future, on drastically reduced incomes...when you're at home.
Because as ruthless as many of these "LCC's" are with your salary, they are hopeless with scheduling efficiency.
In other words, expect to get paid LESS, see your family LESS, but be "at work" MORE!

As long as some of you see the IPG as your enemy, and want to continue "sticking it to 'em" at every possible opportunity, you are playing into your true adversary's hands.
The IPG/J* is a done deal - get over it, and move FORWARD.

ur2

10th Mar 2004, 07:36

Kaptaim M,

"Get over it and move forward"

Bit RICH comming from you !

Mr. Hat

10th Mar 2004, 07:53

Gents while IPG, VB, 89, Qf, Asia are out on the front lawn argueing the accountants are inside emptying the safe and looking under the materass for any stashed money.

Allied Pickford are going to rock up with a truck to take the furniture in a minute.:ouch:

commander adama

10th Mar 2004, 11:49

I could not resist.

What we have here boys and girls is a 4 cornered boxing ring.

In 1 corner we have the QF mainline boys. Aka Proplever. Whom are quite understandably concerned about their future pay and conditions. In the other corner we have the wannabee and GA. This group includes the majority who will never fly for a high capacity airline. ie Pete Conrad. The 3rd corner are the symapathises or the I dont cares. This may include those from the previous 2 corners. These people understand the Jetstar boys and girls had no choice but to try and save their jobs. In the last corner are the Jetstar crew.

Now it does not take an Einstein to figure out. The Jestar crew had the IPC represent the 150 Impulse pilots and put a proposal they thought was fair in order to preserve their jobs and career. A proposal in which everybody seems to forget. Is on par YES PAR with Virgin Blues. The Jetsatar pilots unanimously voted in favour with a backing of 100%. In other words anyone else what have done the same bl00dy thing.

Now the bells has sounded Jestar has won the fight so please put an end to this endless pathetic diatribe.

Chimbu chuckles

11th Mar 2004, 08:51

Fateric

Not standards, attitudes.

"But when we were at AN we did it this way"

Chuck.

Gnadenburg

11th Mar 2004, 09:02

Chimbu

Bumbling enthusiasm, that's all. Probably not warranting sweeping generalisations.

The guys that don't adopt their new airline's culture will cop a professional fall. A fate not reserved exclusively for ex-AN pilots on the international market!

"We did it this way in AN...." would be foolish-considering the long line of hybrid (mongrel) Airbus procedures at Ansett.

Ozzie Jet Pilot

11th Mar 2004, 14:41

Alan Joyce - So much credibility.....such a successful track record at Ansett...where are they now?

Impulse Guys - Had GD over a barrel.....he needed an AOC fast to start porn*...they had a reasonable negotiating position to get a reasonable wage......short sighted?

Pay peanuts get monkeys - they hope they will entice good quality pilots back from overseas, but for those wages i suspect they will get a lower standard......won't know until we see incidents occurring...hopefully no major ones...

My Hope - People will use J* as a stepping stone, get some jet experience, then leave after a year or two to proper jobs, wherever that may be, hopefully no loyalty to a rip-off employer........the turnover should cost a lot of money, and some accountant might realise it is economically viable to pay pilots properly to get the job done right, to hire professionals, and to stop people leaving.......

Hope this post doesn't offend anyone......

Skyknight

11th Mar 2004, 14:55

I agree that what is done is done. It is time for a more united front line. A mutually benificial deal between AIPA and the IPG to campaign for better wages at Jetstar. A win for the jetstar pilots, as it woud give them some industrial muscle to achieve this outcome.

Whats in it for AIPA members? If Jetstar wages were brought into line with say Virgin, it would help to stop the erosion of all airline pilot wages within Australia.

By also offering a deal to Virgin pilots for coverage, AIPA would achieve a position of reasonable strength, helping in future EBA negotiating and reducing the possibility of situations like the impulse guys are in with Jetstar.

:8 I'll shut up now!

faar_canal

12th Mar 2004, 06:49

The deal is already on a par with Virgin with projected overtime rates. If the overtime does not eventuate, there is a written agreement from the company to make the pay the same as Virgin.

proplever

13th Mar 2004, 09:42

So you're working a heap of overtime, just to get what VB pilots get without the overtime?????

Just bend over!:sad: :mad: :yuk::confused:

cunninglinguist

13th Mar 2004, 10:16

There's alot of talk about doing this and that before it's too late.

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the horse has bolted, found a mare, had a family, died of old age, been buried, turned into oil and is currently providing fuel for your car.

Funny how " I'm alright, screw the rest of you " aka AIPA only stir when they are worried about saving there own R's ( from personal experience, only ever heard from them when NJS looked anything like intruding on their turf )

Douglas Mcdonnell

14th Mar 2004, 05:48

OK, another entrant in the endless line of Pulse bashers. Nice one Ozzie 152 smoker. The tone in your post tells me that you probbably dont fly airliners. Rulling the roost at a country aeroclub? Jeez, youve got it made.

I would suggest you retire. 2 posts is enough from you.

proplever

14th Mar 2004, 06:27

Now the bells has sounded Jestar has won the fight so please put an end to this endless pathetic diatribe.

Thanks, Adama, for clarifying the issue. But this "pathetic diatribe" as you eloquently put it, is really a discussion about the future of our profession. So maybe, just maybe, it is worth discussing?

The real topic behind all of this, is that our professional renumeration has been and is under attack, and it is due to groups like the IPC allowing management to dictate terms to them.

Now, I'm not attacking your professional standards here. But it sure looks like management are. They obviously don't think you are worth much, do they?

And nor do they think much of the rest of us now, either.

Rostov

14th Mar 2004, 07:38

And how right they are, about you ol' propy!!!!:ouch:

proplever

14th Mar 2004, 10:02

Ahhh. If it isn't the old "lets play the man" ROSTOV again. How are ya mate? Haven't copped any insults from you recently?

Just completed a search on your posts. ALL of them are are insults directed at QF mainline. Turned down were we?

You will be welcome in AIPA, Rostov. There's an old saying:

Keep your freinds close; keep your enemies even closer.

Sonny Hammond

14th Mar 2004, 12:30

Apparently all will be revealed soon....

Kaptin M

14th Mar 2004, 23:06

Well it would appear that the Impulse pilots (captains only) might be able to realise their TRUE worth in the very near future, as I have been told that the MD rating they hold could be gold in their pockets - around USD9K tax free.

But they`d have to leave Impulse :{ thereby extricating themselves from this sh!tfight, and perhaps leaving AIPA some more room to manouevere.

Check here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1226003#post1226003

This throws an interesting factor into the equation, does it not?!

proplever

15th Mar 2004, 01:52

Ahhhh, you forget Kapitan San...

THESE GUYS AREN"T IN IN FOR THE MONEY!

Maybe if they offered peanuts then the IPC would look at it seriously...?

Or maybe I'm just old and cynical....

spinout

15th Mar 2004, 20:01

The flow on effect has started!
The Regionals are now being told that they are over paid compared to J*

:mad:

Pete Conrad

18th Mar 2004, 09:19

Proplever - I think you've hit the nail on the head re Rostov and his men - they have been turned down.

As for Adama - he doesn't work for mainline - so what would he really know?

QFandlovinIT

18th Mar 2004, 09:57

the bloody shame of it all is that if these loosers didnt take up jobs with DJ and impulse etc etc etc this job would still be worth doing with a bit of pride and cash in the bank.

gone are those days now i guess. thanks all concerned

Kaptin M

18th Mar 2004, 10:51

So are the "etc etc etc' meant to apply to the new joiner J* pilots, QFnluvinit - most of whom you'll be familiar with from a past life I'm sure?

Isn't it about time for pilots to (try to) stop putting sh!te on each other, wake up to where the REAL erosion of our conditions is being initiated, and start to pull TOGETHER rather than APART??!!

commander adama

18th Mar 2004, 12:46

Kaptain : well said

Once again the so called aviation profession is being bagged and let down by a grubby little few. Good old lots of mates Pete Conrad, Propy and QFnluvinit.

The non aviation people who read this forum will probably be afraid to fly with nut cases such as yourselves fueling all this hatred at Jetstar folk. The jetstar folk did what any other person what do in the same situation.

Go for the real culprits. The Jetstar folk have houses and families to feed. Unite and join forces. There is more power in numbers and use this to fuel future growth in conditions. All this hatred falls under the category of divide and conquer. Funnily enough you jokers just don't see this. Ahh. Must be all that bent up wisdom you pocess of which you are so happy to share with us.

AIPA must attract Jetstar folk and with that strive to maintain current and improve future conditions.

Happynow?

Pete Conrad

18th Mar 2004, 19:10

Hey Adama? You get knocked back from stage 1 at QF did you?

Keg

18th Mar 2004, 19:46

Give it a rest Pete. Adama may be a reject from Battlestar Galactica but that doesn't make him a reject from QF. His comments may be crappy but we don't need to be reacting with b/s and arrogance.

Just once it'd be nice if we took someone 'out' legitimately instead of resorting to the 'reject' comment. :( :mad:

Cactus Jack

18th Mar 2004, 20:23

Actually, it is interesting to note that Adama wishes to join something by the name of "Apia"...?

Apia must attract Jetstar folk and with that strive to maintain current and improve future conditions

Now that is either a city in the South Pacific, or it is the Australian Pensioners Insurance Agency.

And whilst this discussion is condusive to nought, you should note Adama, that you have dished out your little bit of invective on this forum. So don't be at all surprised if Pete, Propy, and QF give just a little bit back, eh?

And Keg? Please stop moderating this forum on behalf of QF. Thanks mate.

commander adama

18th Mar 2004, 20:48

Why start now Keg?

Pete Conrad

18th Mar 2004, 21:09

Sorry Keg, didn't mean to offend you. If they can't stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen - this aint an early learning center, then again - it just may be.

Being a wellspring must get tiresome Keg - management are not going to praise you any more or less.

Kaptin M

18th Mar 2004, 21:39

Well you might like to think of it this way, PC (and it`ll probably give you a warm, fuzzy feeling inside as well :hmm: ).
The number of pilots who apply and subsequently qualify to enter QANTAS, is only a small percentage of the original applicants (getting warm & fuzzy yet, Pete ), so when you abuse the likes of Commander Adama, by calling him a reject, you are - in fact - insulting probably a majority of the readers here!

But then you are a QANTAS pilot, and I would have thought that with your supreme intellect that you continually remind us you possess, you would have realised that already.

You disappoint me, Pete.:(

Pete Conrad

18th Mar 2004, 23:12

Hey Kap, bit rich coming from a man who wallows in his mistake of 89. Guess if you had of used your supreme intellect in 89, you wouldn't be on pprune now.

Sorry to sound harsh Kap, but you dissapoint me, I agreed with alot of your posts but it is a rumour network and ones voicing of opinion is a right we have here in Australia. Have you not got something more constructive to add rather than comment on a bit of banter between self and Adama?

I dish it out as good as I cop it on here Kap, if people can't handle that then it aint my problem.

Le Pilot

19th Mar 2004, 00:24

The gangs are forming.

Let's not wallow in the mistakes of AIPA even if CM bought his beach hut in APIA;)

This forum should be used to show a united front instead a splintered group of bitter individuals.

And Pete we would'nt be in this situation if 89 never happened.
A lot of experience OZpats helped to set up the 717 operation. They were not rejects of QF but victims of 89.

Jet* is reality, the queue to mainline command just got longer and management are looking at this as classic "Divide and rule"

bitter balance

19th Mar 2004, 01:12

Hang on - I though Pete Conrad was working in Asia. Since when has he been a QF pilot?

Cronus

19th Mar 2004, 02:20

I am sick and tired of hearing the bleatings of the disaffected and maligned at QF who believe the industry is done for and how while you weren't looking, the IPC copped a feel of your mum's... Why don't you leave, quit, go do something else.

Do you really think it's all happy gas, ferris wheels and big bucks in the real world? Think about what kind of garbage you (people like) Pete "Mr IQ" Conrad and his emanance, Proplevered are spreading here.

I don't work for QF, never have and don't want to if it means dealing with some of the precious individuals posting comments on this site. Never the less I do have close friends working for them and Virgin, Eastern, Impulse, Rex, Skippers, Air North and ******. All very capable and intelligent people. To basically brand the Impulse guys and girls scabs and paint them as the root of all evil is just plain pathetic.

Proplever, why don't you do something affirmitive about what you obviously believe so strongly in? Whinge to AIPA, go on strike, ring A Current Affair, maybe they will champion your cause. They could follow GD in the carpark and get hidden cameras on your flight to see how hard you have it? I can see it now though you'd hide behind a shillouette and have your voice altered, because hey, it's anonomyous right!

As I understand it only 400 pilots out of the 2200? or so in QF mainline bothered to lodge a formal objection to the outsoucing of the LCC operation. I guess this was probably most of the S/O's and a few F/O's? The way I see it GD has played a polished game, he's got AIPA's hand's tied, secured a lower cost base than DJ for the LCC and comes out looking squeaky clean whilst morons like you blame Impulse pilots. It was essentially job preservation. My heart bleeds for you and your arguments about how the Impulse crews should not take the job for less remuneration. Your job is being secured by QF's ability to remain competitive.

There wouldn't be too many pilots in the country who haven't worked for below award wages etc. It's all too easy to sit back now that you're in an airline and bag everyone. Perhaps if when we earned our CPL's we were elligible to join a pilot professional body that was apolitical and protected our interests, like just about every other profession, we could stand united. AIPA has eroded it's negotiating clout by it's elitist membership criteria.

Sorry if I don't counter the inevitable backlash to my post but I do have other things to do outside the aviation creche.

Cronus, wants to eat your children....
xx

Sunsetbird

19th Mar 2004, 03:29

The non aviation people who read this forum will probably be afraid to fly with nut cases such as yourselves fueling all this hatred at Jetstar folk

I think you're fooling yourself adama because you are obviously missing the point. People like prop are debating this because the industry is cutting pay therefore judging their professionalism. Just remember if they were getting paid for cruisey great parts of their job 99% of the time fine, but what about the 1% when the sh*t hits the fan! i'm sorry but i want a pilot who is able to handle that situation and quite frankly i don't care how much money i have to pay i want to know that the person flying my plane is going to get me home safely. Yes, i do understand that the j* guys have families and mortgages but where was their professionalism when they accepted such a pathetic deal. It really has started a downward spiral for Australian pilots. And, i'm not saying that pilots who are paid less are not as professional, just that pilots should get paid what they deserve! It's a bit different if the pilot is crop dusting to if they are in charge of a commercial airliner full of passengers because then it's about the passenger's safety!!!

proplever

19th Mar 2004, 06:34

Sunset, thanks! I'm glad someone has shown an understanding of EXACTLY what I'm standing for.

This situation affects ALL of us.

Cronus, instead of whinging about the whingers at QF, (which makes you equally a whinger BTW), try and understand what it is that we are upset about.

The downward spiral continues whilst you and others like you stick your head in the sand and attempt to somehow justify and rationalise the actions of people like the IPC.

And 400 pilots out of 2200? Thats nearly 20%! You see what happens if 20% of the Australian population wrote to John Howard. Jeez, you reckon he'd sit up and take notice? In any democracy, a figure of nearly 20% is a massive turn out. AIPA would be doing well to take more notice than they are.

Adama? Please don't call me "grubby". And I won't call you nasty names either.:mad:

Douglas Mcdonnell

19th Mar 2004, 23:23

Sunsetbird. I think you have really missed the point here. To question a persons professionalism, on the basis of coporate decisions is frankly hopeless. I love the way in your post you infer that Impulse pilots actively went out to undermine mainline pilots. I guess if you are drawing such a long bow, you might as well question the sanity of mainliners " allowing " jetconnect to go through to the keeper. Whilst also sitting down and having a good look at the fellas that didnt even raise an eyebrow when AIPA blocked any entry into the union of Impulse pilots.

If being a professional is to be blind to the facts and to always deride fellow aviators then a lot of posters here are at the top of the tree.

The reality of the situation was that no support was offered to impulse guys and girls from the start. The high and mighty real aviatiors sat back and waited for the operation to fizzle out. It obviously didnt.
So when things dont go your way, what do you do. Bag everyone of course. After all thats what constitutes being a professional pilot.

Having worked in large operations both in Aus and abroad. I can tell you that the pulse is a good thing and a great place to work.
To have a united pilot group, that has the groups interests in focus, not just individual big heads that cant see past their own noses, is a real treat.

Funny how after all the bagging and the abuse now they want to play? Figure that one out.

DM

spinout

20th Mar 2004, 03:03

Forget about Jetconnect and Jetstar, how long has Airlink been in operation and they are not even Qantas employees. AIPA have allowed contractors to operate Qantas services for a long long time. Regardless of the Qantas Management AIPA need to come out with a mission statement along the lines that they would like to represent all pilots employed by Qantas or their subsidiaries and that they support and recognise the right of all Qantas pilots to move within the group to positions that their seniority dictates.

Kaptin M

20th Mar 2004, 03:48

I agree, spinout, that AIPA need to bring all pilots who operate under QF under their (AIPA's) umbrella, but what makes you think that this should give the pilots the entitlement to join the QANTAS seniority system?
As you state, "they are not even Qantas employees.", however, if, in the future, they were to become so, they might at THAT time be entitled to tag on to the end of the QF seniority list, and then "move within the group to positions that their seniority dictates." :D

longjohn

20th Mar 2004, 13:29

Reading the comments here, and just generally listening to comments around crewrooms etc. it appears to me that QF management may have underestimated the effect that Jetstar would have on morale.

The latest QF Flight Ops mag suggests that QF crew should all be excited about the fact that the current recruitment rate is the 4th largest in the airlines history.

However, the airline is larger than it has ever been by some margin, and all around airlines like Dragon, Emirates and now Jetstar are promoting at rates only dreamed about by QF pilots.

Worst of all, Jetstar is fully owned and subsidised by QF.

Personally, I will be voting NO to any deal that offers QF jobs to others, (i.e. transmission of business) and that offers the unborn better opportunities than I.

There is no changing the fact that the Impulse pilots will secure the initial positions, but as far as I can see it the deal after that, as it currently stands is woefully inadequate.

spinout

20th Mar 2004, 20:08

Kaptin M,

You may have miss understood me, AIPA should represent all Qantas Employed pilots, by that I mean all pilots working for Qantas Mainline and there wholly owned subsidiaries. The only way to stop the divide and concur is to accept that each subsidiary has a standard equal to mainline and there fore all pilots should be able to move within the Qantas operation. As for Transfer of Business this has been going on for a long time also, Eastern operate Dash 8’s into Canberra that used to be a mainline Jet service, Southern then Impulse now Jetstar operate services to Hobart Launceston etc that used to be mainline flying.
One another point why does AIPA allow contractors i.e. National Jet Systems to operate Qantas services all over Western Australia, surly if that was brought in-house there would be plenty of commands….