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Unwell_Raptor
17th Mar 2002, 21:14
I don't have to go into the reasons, and I think that we all need to exercise tact, but I want to sympathise with the white and black Africans whose lives are now finally devastated.. .. .My thoughts are with you, as they are with all of the people whose lives and jobs are about to be less secure than before.. .. .Good luck to all of you.

blowawayjet
17th Mar 2002, 22:39
regarding this clown, how well is he hated now?enough for people to try kill him? what are the chances that someone will try to put him to sleep? reason for me asking is, is for a friend, who might have him onboard his aircraft in a few days, and he wants to know how save it is having him onboard....

HugMonster
18th Mar 2002, 00:00
I don't think I'd fly him if I had the choice...

Mac the Knife
18th Mar 2002, 00:23
Checkout http://www.samara.co.zw/cfu/farmininbul.htm. .. .Site can be slow so be patient.

Tartan Gannet
18th Mar 2002, 03:24
I could weep when I see what Black Hitler has done to Rhodesia and its people, black and white. Once the larder of Southern Africa, now fast becoming a desert. . .. .Who to blame? Lord Carrington and the Government of that time and their Lancaster House Agreement. . .. .Take heart however, Black Bob is said to have Testicular Cancer and it has spread to his skeletal system. The one opponent he cannot intimidate is waiting, all his so called War Veterans cannot help him against the Grim Reaper! When his death is announced I will have a little holiday in my heart. May his soul burn in OCB's Hell!. .. .Then let us step in under the guise of Overseas Aid, rid Rhodesia of ZANU PF and put a more reasonable leader in charge in Salisbury.

Velvet
18th Mar 2002, 04:20
Quite so TG. I hadn't heard about his cancer, but would it be quite awful to wish him a slow and painful death.. .. .Do we really need to be part of a Commonwealth that allows its members to act like this? Don't we condone his actions by clinging to this remnant of our past.. .. .'All that evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing'.

G.Khan
18th Mar 2002, 04:37
Hear, hear, the Commonwealth is, in my opinion, a spent force. The UK should cut its losses and get out now. Let the bludgers see how they manage then without continual hand-outs from those horrible white people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

Tartan Gannet
18th Mar 2002, 04:44
Velvet, this calls into question the very purpose of the Commonwealth. . .. .Now I understand from the papers etc that Her Majesty is very keen on the Commonwealth and would strongly disapprove of its being wound up. This means that we are stuck with it for the forseeable future. (See my remarks on the Golden Jubilee Thread about the longevity of British Queens). . .. .It is however becoming an increasingly irrelevant and an ineffectual talking shop. The majority (non white) members shake their fist at the UK and the White Dominions while extending the begging bowl with the other hand. Their attitude over the abuses of the Mugabe Regime in Rhodesia beggars belief and I can only contrast it with the strident protests and calls for draconian action that would have been issued against any White run nation treating its people in such a manner.. .. .Velvet, I am not usually given to taking any joy in the painful death of another person, indeed although I support the Death Penalty I do not agree with methods which border on torture such as the Electric Chair and the Gas Chamber and I am pleased that the USA is using the Lethal Injection in more and more executions. However when faced with a monster such as Mugabe who ranks with Hitler in all but magnitude my normal feelings of compassion tend to fade. He is guilty of Genocide against the Matabele citizens of this country and in my opinion is as bad as Slobodan Milosovic (sp?) currently on trial for his crimes at the Hague. It is typical of the hypocrisy of our politicans that they rightly prosecute him who is white but shy away from bringing similar retribution down on a similar black despot and tyrant.. .. .Like others I really feel great sorrow for the Rhodesians, white or black, Mashona or Matabele.

Constable Clipcock
18th Mar 2002, 14:33
This is precisely the state of affairs we politically incorrect types warned about back in the '70s.. .. .Anyone else fancy a Clem Tholet sing-along?

Tartan Gannet
18th Mar 2002, 15:15
On teletext today it is announced that another white farmer, Terry Ford, has been murdered by scum, (whoops, sorry "War Veterans"),on his farm 30 miles south west of Salisbury, Rhodesia. May he rest in peace.

The Nr Fairy
18th Mar 2002, 16:42
I was listening to Broadcasting House on Radio 4 yesterday and there was a skit paralleling the fixing of the London Mayoral election and the current situation in Zimbabwe.. .. .Funny primarily because the same people now bitching about Zimbabwe were the same people who fixed the election !. .. .Aside from that the scale and importance of what is happening in Zimbabwe is far removed from the trifling events in London.

ATRIXO
18th Mar 2002, 16:57
An Englishman, a Frenchman and a World Bank Economist are viewing a painting of Adam and Eve frolicking in the Garden of Eden.. ."Look at their reserve, their calm," muses the Englishman.. ."They must be English!". ."Nonsense," says the Frenchman. "They are both naked and beautiful.. ."They must be French!". ."You are both wrong," says the World Bank economist. . ."They have no clothes and no shelter. They have only an apple to eat and they're being told they're in Paradise.. .Clearly, they are Zimbabweans!"

B Sousa
18th Mar 2002, 21:21
Very Simply.......If your not gonna take it back, your gonna have to live with it....

Feline
19th Mar 2002, 01:17
Yes, I feel dreadfully sorry for the people of Zimbawe, both black and white. And the sooner Bob goes, the better because things aren't going to get any better, even for the people who voted for him.. .But -- even if he does depart this mortal coil Real Soon -- what's going to happen when he's gone? Seems to me that things in Zim are so polarised that even with Bob gone, the people there are still in for a tough time for a very long time.. .What happened in Uganda after Idi went?

B Sousa
19th Mar 2002, 09:28
Feline ....Just to stretch Mr Moderators nerves a bit....... .Idi, Bob, and the whole lot..... only a few Black run countries in Africa are within fifty years of todays date. I think history reflects when were the good times and when were the bad....Look at the leadership during those times..... .End of Story.

DuckDogers
19th Mar 2002, 09:50
God help all those in Zimbabwe, if Blair had a decent thread in him he would intervene and sort out the tyranny that now prevails. I for one would be far more at ease being sent to Harare rather than in support of the debacle in Afghanistan.. .. .So much for looking after ones own nationals and interests! Then again i've only got a MSc in IR and Strategic Studies!!

henry crun
19th Mar 2002, 10:48
If I may say so DuckDogers you give a simplistic answer to a very complex question.. .. .Is Mugabe likely to invite UK in to sort out their problems ? of course not.. .How else can UK effectively intervene without the use of force ? Diplomatic means have failed in the past and will continue to fail as long as Mugabe remains in power.. .. .Suspending Zimbabwe from the commonwealth, as is possible, will be the same as a slap with a wet bus ticket.. .. .Even if UK decided to use force to sort out the curent tyranny do they have the strength to do so, given their other current commitments ? . .I don't think so.. .. .From a military viewpoint I fail to see how it could be achieved even if Blair decided to do so. I also find it hard to believe that any other country would support such an action. . .More likely there would be vehement opposition, particularly from the African nations whose support would be necessary. . .. .So, if you have any practical suggestions as to how Blair can effectively intervene, why not tell us.. .. .Let me state, I do not support Mugabe and I am as appalled as every other right thinking person by what is happening in the sorry country.. .. .Any action against Mugabe must, in my opinion, come from within Zimbabwe itself with support and pressure from other African nations, in particular South Africa.

Dr. Hibbert
19th Mar 2002, 12:01
Well the UK can start by getting a bit more ruthless with its aid handouts. First up, make it clear that any countries continuing to support Mugabe will no longer qualify for UK aid of any kind, and will get no UK support in elections for all the international gravy trains they seem so keen to get on.. .. .Can't see the point of handing out money to countries who directly or indirectly support tyrants.. .. .Oh, and disband/pull out of the Commonwealth - fifty years out of date and counting.. . . . <small>[ 19 March 2002, 07:02: Message edited by: Dr. Hibbert ]</small>

OneWorld22
19th Mar 2002, 13:12
I have to laugh at some peoples novel way of looking at the recent history of "Rhodesia" and the revionist attitude to Ian Smith. Maybe I have the wrong Ian Smith, but the one I remember was every bit as bad as Mugabe, I presume you're talking about the Ian Smith who when he was PM, rationed food with the result that 90% of black children were malnourished and infant mortality rates were at plague like proportions. Smiths deliberate policy was to starve the rebel tendencies out of the natives.. .. .He also strove to keep them as ignorant as possible, cutting funding to just $5 per black child on education compared to the $80 that was spent on white kids. He also came up with the novel name of "protective villages" for his concentration camps in which he filled up with blacks at will. And of course he gave his police and army legal immunity in dealing with troublesome natives so they could do what they liked and literally get away with murder.. .. .So please, spare us the rose tinted view of Smith, Mugabe is a vicious and deranged lunatic who should be shunned by the world. But Smith, Mugabe, Tom a toe, Tom ah toe.

Tricky Woo
19th Mar 2002, 13:20
Depressing stuff.. .. .TW

Drop and Stop
20th Mar 2002, 03:48
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_548425.html?menu=

Man-on-the-fence
20th Mar 2002, 04:15
Speaking as one who is about to nurse his mother through yet another course of Chemotherapy trying to fight her third cancerous attack in 10 years. This after watching (with my mother) my father go through his own version of hell being treated (chemo again after many operations) for Malignant Melanoma.. .. .Speaking as one who's heart is filled with dread knowing exactly what my mother is going to go through.. .. .Speaking as one who is (at this moment in time) holding in with fingertips to the thought that there is any justice in this world, that both my father and mother who are good God fearing people, as honest as the day is long, should have to go hrough this when others, infinitely more evil should get away seemingly scot free.. .. .The knowledge that this wretch "may" be about to suffer a similar fate fills my heart with joy.. .. .Mugabe you bastard I hope that you go through everything my folks have with bells on. If true is a truly awful fate, you , and your family deserve it.. . . . <small>[ 19 March 2002, 23:17: Message edited by: Man-on-the-fence ]</small>

Tartan Gannet
20th Mar 2002, 04:23
Well said Man on the Fence. I dont normally wish suffering on anyone in a terminal illness but for Mugabe I hope as part of the sanctions against him and his regime we block all medical aid, drugs etc. The idea of him dying in agony in some filthy flyblown excuse for a clinic in his capital city and not easily and peacefully in a first class private hospital somewhere in Western Europe or the USA does appeal to my sense of retribution. When I think of that poor farmer, his corpse guarded by his dog, shown in the papers and TV yesterday, Nemesis cannot come too quickly or harshly to Black Bob!

Hot 'n' High
20th Mar 2002, 04:48
OneWorld22 - Quite agree that things were probably not that ideal when Smith was in power. But the phrase "out of the frying pan and into the fire" is most appropriate here. One only has to look at the work of groups like the Fifth Brigade in Matabeleland in the 1980's, or to see the recent election farce, to understand the tyranny of Mugabe. Or we could mention the economy.....! Smith had his faults but you cannot compare him with Mugabe. Besides, being sold out by Britain in the 60's left Smith with nowhere to go.. .. .I think, what is most depressing, is the fact that having been given their freedom, Zimbabweans are probably worse off now then they were in the 60's and 70's. Indeed, many Black Rhodesians feared the inevitable demise of White rule in the 70's as they fully realised what they were about to endure. I believe even Mugabe knows he has lost the plot. At his recent Inauguration speech, he almost threatened the surrounding Southern African states and demanded that they bail him out of the economic nightmare that Zimbabwe has become. "If Zimbabwe goes, you go" was the gist! And his continued patriotic cries about Land Reform sounds like those of a man who has just realised he's reached the end of the line but can maybe delay the inevitable through induced patriotic hysteria.. .. .I was somewhat surprised at the announcement of Zimbabwes' suspension from the Commonwealth today - not that I think it will worry Mugabe. What was significant was that two African leaders who declared the recent elections to be "free and fair" have supported the move. Me thinks they realise that "Black Brotherhood" has it's limits. Certainly the work of Thabo Mbeki and Olusegun Obasanjo over the last few days shows just how out of line they see Mugabe and how worried they are about what Mugabe could do to them in terms of collateral damage. Wherever the solution comes from, the idea of the Brits sending in "the Boys" to sort the problem out is a farce. Maybe go there as invited peacekeepers but people are somewhat out of touch if they think for one minute we could sort the problem out. Mbeki has probably the best chance - and he has the most to lose. For the sake of everyday Zimbabweans, lets hope things improve.

Send Clowns
20th Mar 2002, 05:37
When comparing Smith with Mugabe I think of something a friend told me. Ten years ago he was teaching in a village school in Zimbabwe, before going to university. He said that Ian Smith could and did walk through any township or shanty town in Zimbabwe freely and with friendly reception. Even then Mugabe feared to enter these areas without the security of an armoured vehicle and full bodyguard. That is very telling.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 00:38: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]</small>

Velvet
21st Mar 2002, 00:34
TG - with all due respect to the Queen, if she wishes to continue having a commonwealth, perhaps she ought to finance it. On a more serious note, exactly what does the Commonwealth achieve? I'm not talking about getting the leaders of various post-colonial countries attending a talking shop. Nor about the billions that are handed out in aid, often tied to contractual agreements to purchase unnecessary and expensive projects. Frequently, siphoned off by corrupt officials. I'm talking about real achievements, like a stable and peaceful coalition of countries who strive to better their people. . .. .The suspension of Zimbabwe probably has more to do with the fear by African nations that they will suffer as a consequence of Mugabe's murderous regime. Inward investment in Zimbabwe has dropped from 306million in 1998 to 3.6m in 2001. That's probably the interest on Mugabe's bank western bank accounts. George Soros stated at the UN Conference in Mexico that Africa as a whole would suffer because of Mugabe's actions. He went on further 'The elections in Zimbabwe have cast doubt on the ability of African states to create suitable conditions for private investment'. This, if nothing else, would focus the minds of men who can see their lifestyles being seriously disrupted if they didn't at least show some signs of distancing themselves from him.. .. .How sad though that it has taken years of fudging, untold deaths and a country on the brink of ruin to rinally bring the Commonwealth leaders to their senses and do what should have been done long before it was too little, too late. . .. .I agree, despite the hardship it might cause, we should stop anything other than purely humanitarian aid to any country who supports Zimbabwe and other similar regimes. Pouring unrestricted aid, however well meant, into countries which have corrupt and unaccountable governments often exacerbates the problems not cures them.

NdekePilot
21st Mar 2002, 02:57
Throw as much aid in as you like....and boy do they, Red Nose etc etc, the man in the street gets poorer, watching his children die of malnutrition, HIV and the rest. The "leaders"?? Well, they get more obscenely wealthy and travel to ever more overseas conferences in their Challengers and Gulfstreams and get feted wherever they go. COMMONwealth?? Bit of a misnomer surely. And before the NaySayers jump in with their two pennies worth, perhaps they should put down their Hello magazines and go take a real look. It is criminal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Taildragger
21st Mar 2002, 06:12
Well said Velvet. I support the opinion that when they circumcised Robert Madgabe as a boy, they threw the wrong bit away.!!

Paterbrat
21st Mar 2002, 18:02
Oneworld 22 Your argument that Smith and Mugabe are to be compared simply ignores the fact that Smith has remained in Zimbabwe unprotected and quite unafraid. Were he as bad as Mugabe he would have been killed long before now. Regretfully therefore I will have to reject your comparison.. . The spillover effect of Mugabes scorched earth policy is now taking effect in Malawi where famine is striking hard. The fact the Zimbabwe once a thriving exporter now cannot feed itself and is having to import vast ammounts of food therby driving the price of maize out of Malawi's reach is having devastating effects. . . Zimbabweans too, are looking at starvation shortly, in addition to anarchy and civil war. Black Bob has really hit the chaos jackpot on this one. He has driven a once thriving country to the edge of collapse and ruin.. . It has to be hoped that those simplisticaly PC people in the British Government at the time who helped place him in power will note well the monster they helped to create.

Metro man
23rd Mar 2002, 13:38
Where are all the demonstrators who camped outside the South African embassy during apartheid? Or all the Guardian readers demanding sanctions , surely they need a new cause to latch on to and this would be a good one .Dictator stealing election ,murdering opponents ,mass arrests etc.. .. .Only one thing wrong Bob is black and we all know that where as whites killing blacks is totally unacceptable and brings out the demonstrators in their thousands ,blacks killing whites or other blacks is quite okay these days.. .. .Come back Ian Smith ,all is forgiven.At least he had the sense to keep basic prices down so people could afford to live. He may not have been politically correct and socially aware but under him most people were twice as well off as they are under Mugape.His rule has given vast wealth to a tiny elite ,opportunities for a small number and poverty and misery to the vast majority.

Paterbrat
26th Mar 2002, 02:08
Here here. But regretfully it's not PC to demonstrate against a black government, that is of course racism.

Ivchenko
26th Mar 2002, 03:33
Feline. .. .Sorry this is a reply to a week old question of yours - you asked what happened when Amin went from Uganda. But the question is still relevant.. .. .He was replaced in a coup d'etat led by a university lecturer called Museveni, who is still President. I spent some time dealing with the Ugandan government in 1996 (not at President level but not far down) with regard to the future of tiny little Air Uganda.. .. .They have had troubles - and incompetence - all their own, but I must say I was deeply impressed by the absence of corruption, in stark contrast to some of their neighbours, and came away feeling that they are one of the few governments in Africa who try not to exploit their own people.. .. .As a more directly topical aside - I've had some dealings with South Africa and Zimbabwe recently and it's worth noting that the white "middle classes" leaving Zimbabwe tell me that they have chosen Europe or America to go to - not SA because they fear that once Mandela dies then SA will become racist like Zimbabwe. (I pass that on without comment, but I've heard it more than once.)

Hot 'n' High
26th Mar 2002, 15:46
Ivchenko - I fear your last Para is very close to the truth. Probably more than you realise. I have also heard such rumblings.

Cardinal Puff
26th Mar 2002, 20:00
The current belief is that Mbeki's just waiting to see how little the West does to curb Bob the Gob's excesses before kicking off his own little empire building excercise. So far nothing has been done to warn Bob off (ie, temporary suspension from the Commonwealth and an invitation to participate in the Commonwealth Games anyhow in the same week.), so I guess South Africa's next. How long it will take is the question....

Paterbrat
31st Mar 2002, 18:21
The problem is that any intervention by the West (other than hard currency ) is percieved as white racist interference. Imperialist Colonialist mentalities are simply unfit to interfere in this "Elected" Black Goverment's efforts to right the wrongs inflicted upon it by the previous rulers. ( stability, infrastructure, juduciary, economy, agriculteural self sufficiancy). These were all Colonialy tainted and should as such be swept away and replaced by a solution imposed... er sorry, chosen by the masses who have all so impressively have swept to unapposed victory the great and glorious leader who led them from the quagmire of oppressive self sufficiency.
His massive intellect and piercing ability to single out his opponents and pierce them, has been an inspiration to the multitude of vetrans of the liberation war. These in turn are themselves an inspiration to those of us who would dearly love to know their secret anti-aging tactics. If they sold that to the ladies magazines they could support the country for years on the revenue generated.

Metro man
5th Apr 2002, 23:53
In order to fully appreciate the depth of incompetence of Mugape and his Chicago 1930's gangster government you should compare it to the Rhodesians who ,for fourteen years survived sanctions and fought a war ,yet were able to provide everyone with a standard of living twice as high as now (currently rapidly falling ).

What has happened to the untold billions of dollars of aid money given since 1980 ? What can Mugape show for it ? For 22 years of preferential access to markets ,aid projects , training ,investment etc he can show 80% of the population living in abject poverty.

The country can feed 60 million people yet is begging for emergency food aid in the face of looming starvation.

The country could and should be a fantastic place to live and work ,with opportunities in tourism ,agriculture ,mining ,manufacturing ,yet it has the fastest shrinking economy in Africa ,is rated the riskiest investment destination in the world and is the largest source of illegal immigrants to the UK.

Compare it to Singapore ,which at independence had nothing and was a dirty swamp with a drug problem.What an amazing job they've done , their standard of living is now higher than that of the UK ,major financial centre ,thriving exporter ,transport hub , clean safe ,law and order paramount , a fully developed first world nation.

God help South Africa it's only a matter of time:(

G.Khan
6th Apr 2002, 01:27
Er... Metro Man, I was living in Singapore 1965 to 1968 and a swamp it definitely was not! Nor were they left with nothing, in fact they had a system of government, a developed infrastructure and lots more besides.
Also lived there 1991 to 2001 and yes, they have come a long way and not entirely undue to the start they were given!
Be fair.:)

Metro man
6th Apr 2002, 13:21
I used Singapore as a comparison because both countries are ex British colonies and would have been run in a fairly similar manner ;police ,civil service , education etc , and similar structures would have been in place.

At independence did Singapore have the ability to feed itself and many of it's neighbours ?,I think not. Did it have world class tourist attractions such as the Victoria falls which could attract people to come and visit from all over the world ?no. Is there vast mineral wealth in the ground waiting to be dug up ?no

Zimbabwe had all these advantages and many more and is now a basket case. Singapore had very little in comparison and has done a fantastic job ,outshining it's former colonial master.

Indians ,Chinese and Malays manage to live peacefully together ,the crime rate is very low. The people of Singapore have managed to do so much to improve themselves having started with so little.

Compare this to Zimbabwe and ask why the difference ?

Also look at Switzerland ,small mountainous ,landlocked country in central Europe ,few natural resources yet one of the highest standards of living in the world why ?

We pay a very high price in terms of aid money ,refugees etc because of some peoples inability to govern themselves properly.

G.Khan
8th Apr 2002, 23:28
Yep Metro Man, I buy all that re Zimbabwe, didn't look into the comparison with Singapore deeply enough! Soooreee!:o