View Full Version : Who is this Guvnor Bloke Anyway?

Dave Hedgehog
20th Oct 2001, 19:43
I'm new to pprune

Please answer my question

im confused about it you see, everyone seems to hate him, so whats he done?

many thanks


20th Oct 2001, 21:19
The Guvnor is ok. He stepps on toes now and then as he among other things advocates less money and more work for those "Overpaid" pilots. (PPRuNe is perhaps the wrong place to view those opinions, this being a site for Pro Pilots, not bean counters.. :D )

I met The Guvnor right here in Florida over a number of beers and spicy chicken wings, nice guy he is.
The folks that keep after him should remember free speech and find better things to do with their time: Broken record comes to mind: Same BS from the same people over and over again.

20th Oct 2001, 22:23
Steps on toes ??????
Read this little summary of him. A b/s merchant of note! http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html

The Guvnor
20th Oct 2001, 22:32
Good grief, if the only thing that anyone keeps trotting out is that tired, badly written and contradictory old piece of junk, then I don't have to worry much, do I?

As always, if anyone wants a copy of my response to Yano - including corroboration - just email me. My address is in my profile. :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

20th Oct 2001, 22:37
Yawn, seen that link many times before.

At least the guy is trying. You can build a case against anybody..(Would hate to see a similar page featuring the TowerDog, it would not be pretty.. :eek: )

If he wants to buy planes from Delta or if his got wrecks parked in the desert, so what?
Yawn........ :rolleyes:

Edited for spelling, the usual way..

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: TowerDog ]

21st Oct 2001, 01:43
No personal contact, all by e-mail, but, source of accurate information for the subject under discussion at the time. So, no complaints - for those counting posts, BEagle will catch him up soon!!!
(Edited for late night typo - it's 2 am here!)

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: HalesAndPace ]

21st Oct 2001, 01:59
Guvnor: I must admit that if I see that URL one more time, I will scream... But why not post your rebuttal (or a link to it) on PPRuNe rather than personal e-mail?

Such action ought to put a stop to anyone else trotting out the same old article.

The Guvnor
21st Oct 2001, 02:27
Sanjosebaz - because it contains certain commercial-in-confidence information that is not for public dissemination; at least with individaul mailings I can keep track of who has it.

Incidentally, as a quick check of his past posts will tend to confirm (all of which seem to have been directed at me for some reason :rolleyes: ) ZambAero is one of the alter egos of our old friend Who/Freeboot etc (who incidentally is a prime contributor to that article whose link drives a lot of people mad!)

Strange, these coincidences! :D :D :D

21st Oct 2001, 03:00
As I said elsewhere - your factual posts actually benefit Pprune. It saves us who have to actually do something during the working day from looking it all up.

I work with Airline Management day in, day out (proper Management, not the beancounters brought in to fill up empty offices!) and find it very difficult to believe that you are really planning this huge business when you obviously spend a great proportion of your time on the net - even the Pprune virgin would spot this quite quickly! Maybe your Topiary hobby (an addiction to Ppruning (ho ho)) is the reason that you've not actually had the time to set the airline up?!

I don't want a copy of your c-i-c e-mail, after all, I can send you an e-mail if you like stating that I am, in reality, the owner of an airline in Brazil. It may be true, it may not!

However, I don't incite comments about my own suitability or otherwise to run an aviation company by continually posting comments about how crap every other company's management structure is, when I (you) don't have a track record in doing so.

And that website link - well, all I can say is that it's a pretty long article and "there's no smoke without fire..."

21st Oct 2001, 03:36
Not hate (horrid word) but irritation comes to my mind.
For those of us who have been members since the days of the email bulletins he has been spouting the news of his start up airline. For a couple of years there were actual dates, then of course the inevitable delays and the continual justification for those delays. This has literally been going on for years. There was also the debacle of alter ego postings on another bulletin board when he was caught out in a big way.
I'm sure he is very personable but genuine ?

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: Damsel ]

21st Oct 2001, 07:47
Who is the Guvnor? The great wind-up merchant. He who stirs things up and provokes revealing responses. Every bulletin board needs at least one. The Pilot Profession has much more than its fair share of those who think that the world revolves around them. So when The Guvnor rattles the bars he usually provokes outrage - "Smoke'em out" as George Dubbya would say.

There's a generous portion of outrage over on the engineers' forum, caused by a couple of posts on R & N implying that LAMEs work for the pilots rather than the company. Sort of glorified flunkies as it were. "Accept" the aircraft indeed; "My life is the one on the line" - stuff and nonsense! Its an aeroplane Brian - it flies because of the laws of physics, the pilot doesn't carry the damn thing up there. The Guvnor is one of those who dares to suggest that operating a flying machine is just another job, no wonder he generates controversy on PPRuNe. Long may he continue to do so. :p

Now don't go flaming me - personally I disagree with him. The pilots that I know are without exception a bunch of jolly decent chaps with phenomenal skill, eagle sharp eyesight and the courage of lions; paragons of physical perfection honed to an edge. Not a beer belly among them even though they usually stand their round at the bar. (at the end of the month one sometimes finds they used your chit number - but that's another story...)

Through difficulties to the cinema

The Guvnor
21st Oct 2001, 12:45
Come on, Damsel - I know for a fact that just about every PPRuNer I know perosnally has at least one alter ego - and the sole reason I created one on another board was because a particular discussion had got heated to the point that the only way to try to cool things down was to introduce a 'third party' to reiterate the points that I had already made. Nothing sinister in that. When I got caught out, I immediately admitted it rather than trying to deny or squirm my way out of it (as I suspect most would have done).

Daifly - as you'd expect following the events of September, the L10 project has been indefinitely postponed. I'm working on something else, but it's at early stages yet - whigh gives me plenty of time to attend to my PPRuNeing. :D :D

The reason that article is so long is that it's badly written and contradicts itself at least three times. Take out the contradictions and the patently incorrect bits, and you're left with a TriStar fan whinging that there aren't any of his favourite aircraft flying - not that he's prepared to put his hand in his pocket to do something about it, though!

Also, I note that there are indeed factual innacuracies with your own post - I only joined PPRuNe in September 99 (not "since the days of the email bulletins"); and the L10 project was first mooted in Burundi at the very end of December 99 - somewhat less than two years ago. Perhaps it just feels longer! :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

21st Oct 2001, 13:49
So the question remains:

What does the Guvnor govern? !!

21st Oct 2001, 18:17
Telling little lies about your multiple personalities Guv. You've been caught several times using multiple personalities to argue your points on several different BB's. Definitely not innocently seeking to reiterate points.

And for anyone who wants a copy of Robertson's email to Ryosuke Yano here's one. Plenty more from others ridiculing Robertson's response are available.

This what I received from Robertson, a complete balooney who believes he is an aviation expert, and claims that his plan to acquire all of Delta TriStars would succeed.

Best Regards,
Ryo Yano

From: Neil D Robertson <[email protected]>
To: Ryosuke Yano <[email protected]>
Subject: Your article on CalWings
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 07:39:19 +0100

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.

Dear Ryo
I am deeply disturbed and distressed that you have seen fit to publish such a scathing attack on me - and on the Caledonian Wings project - on your website, using information that is false, malicious and/or misleading. Your publication of such statements constitutes libel and we reserve the right to take legal action against you for such publication - as we have done already against others.

However, I would like to set forth my version of events, which can be verified by yourself. Once you have done so, I would expect to see an apology from yourself and correction of these facts, which should be given at least the same level of prominence as this article has. Note that I have included a number of items which are commercially secret or sensitive - you are therefore requested NOT to publish this response to you.

1) Acquisition of the Delta L1011s - we have been in discussions with Delta Air Lines throughout much of 2000, both directly and indirectly. Our contact there was David de Mars, the head of aircraft disposals. However, progression of the discussions regarding acquisition were slow and mainly bogged down by internal politics within Delta - we wanted (and needed) to acquire the entire package of L1011s, spare engines, spare parts, tooling, simulators, engine overhaul facility etc; but de Mars only had control and sale authorisation over the aircraft and simulators; the spares (including spare engines, tooling and the RB211 overhaul facility) come under the control of the technical department. The combined price was, in our opinion, considerably more than we could justify; bearing in mind that all aircraft are fully run out.

Re: Meeting with DL
Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:13:46 EST
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]


Spent about 2 hours with Dave DeMars yesterday and I was on my way back to
Miami around 2 PM.

We met, I showed him what I have been buying Tristars for (showed him a
couple signed contracts on past deals), we discussed that there are less than
5 real and capable candidates in the Globe for L1011's (its a tight market as
the L1011 is not like a B737 or B727).

We had lunch and just talked about the TriStars, Delta Management Position,
Value of the spares, what he though it was worth and what I thought it was
worth. All of his other "offers" look to have petered out and died save for
possibly a couple TriStars going to Stavros in Congo/Africa if he finds money
from the **** bag Kabila. I also filled him in on Stavros (*** EVERYTHING
***) but I did say the guy does deals and he is more Africanized than he

Told him this L1011 package of run out planes / engines is not a deal we
could put alot of value in assets due to the need for having CASH on hand
after taking delivery of the planes and engines.


I also spoke about financing,,, how we have a major player for the debt in
California up to $30MM and that if certain elements line up in the deal (i.e.
potential leases of planes or engines, or pre-sales of engines, -500's or
parts) we can probably come up with a $500,000 deposit to lock up the deal
but no more.

What is the position of CALEDONIAN WINGS and your colleague w/ some money???
Is CALWINGS still a realistic option for placing planes if they can be
refurbished, etc.

I think we are going to have a hard time to do sale/leasebacks on anything
other than the -250 and -500's (and the heavy engines) as the industry knows
the L1011's are going to hell in a handbasket.... But I am confident that if
they are CHEAP ENOUGH it can work.

FYI - we took delivery of the L1011-50 (S/N 1080) last week,,, it is an
airframe less engines but with everything else in place... It has 23,000 TT
remaining on "D" and 1,700 on C but needs again... We can put engines on and
do a C check, paint and interior if there is an end-user willing to step up
to the plate.

Best Regards,

In any case, the aircraft parked at Mohave have had their data plates removed and sold to Boeing as part of a trade-in package, which means that they are permanently withdrwan from use. Most, if not all, have now been parted out.
Subsequently, we have been using a policy of 'eating the elephant one bite at a time' and using the acquisition of smaller groups of aircraft as a method of 'ramping up' to the Delta package, should we intend to finally go that route. Our evaluation of the restoration to service of s/n 1080, owned by our partner company BPI Aerospace Inc is part of this strategy.

In the meantime, Delta has pursued a policy of the sale of single aircraft to various operators (CAL and Orient Thai in particular), which obviously reduces both the available fleet and - more importantly from our perspective - the amount we would be willing to pay for the balance of the aircraft.

2) ACMI operations: you appear to be confusing the proposed ACMI lessor with Caledonian Wings, which would be simply a client. There has never been the slightest suggestion from me that CalWings would be operating more than probably three aircraft initially. The ACMI lessor would function in the same way as Air Atlanta; providing aircraft and crews to various client airlines around the world.

3) Other statements made in your article: I will now go through your article to show you the inaccuracies:

"We haven`t talked with Caledonian Wings." was the reply when I asked Delta Air Lines about the airline. Who did you talk with at Delta? As our discussions with them were confidential, only David de Mars, his direct colleagues and those he reports to would have necessarily been aware of them. In addition, in December 2000 both John Poindexter and I had a meeting with an Atlanta based attorney - arranged by Mr de Mars - to be briefed on the situation at Delta.

RE: Update
Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:25:16 -0400
"DeMars, David"
'Neil D Robertson'


Will be in on Thursday / Friday. Please call me and we can confirm time.

Best Regards,


404 715 2840
Frequent visitors of this website, or people who know about the Lockheed L-1011 TriStar well, probably thought "What!?" the moment you read this first sentence.
Caledonian Wings, formerly known as Celtic Airways, has been known for its humongous, ironic plan that took the airline industry observers by surprise; a plan to
purchase 44 L-1011s from Atlanta-based mega carrier Delta Air Lines. Neil Robertson, the Chief Executive Officer of Caledonian Wings has been telling the media since early this year that he is under negotiations with Delta Air Lines, and that talks were progressing smoothly, despite slowly. According to Robertson, the new airline would offer low-fare transatlantic flights from Scotland's Prestwick International Airport commencing April 2001. He claims that the airline will grow quickly, becoming the largest operator of the L-1011, and opening and thus developing Scottish tourism. Well, then what does Delta's words mean!?
Wrong - I have never said that CalWings would operate all the aircraft. CalWings would be a client of the leasing company.

Recently, I had been receiving letters asking whether Caledonian Wings really existed or not. They had announced their existence in spring 2000, and surprised, or
should I say took everyone by doubt, when they told the media that they intended to acquire 44 L-1011s from Delta for ACMI services.

ACMI ops are not the CalWings business...

Robertson reported that the new airline would be based at Shannon, and that a huge L-1011 overhaul complex would be built there.

That was due to various financial incentives being offered by the Irish Government; together with our perception (subsequently shown to be erroneous) that it would cost too much and be too complicated to get the Delta aircraft onto the UK register.

TriStar enthusiasts around the world were probably delighted to hear this, since it was like a dream coming true. But, when Robertson kept giving similar announcements on and on that he was "making progress, despite slowly", the dark clouds started to gather in our minds.

Why should this be? Look at Mike Garland's Big Bird operation which looks as it it may be getting started with the ex Caledonian aircraft; it's taken him more than 4 years to get off the ground. Our proposed operation was only initially thought up in December 1999.

When Robertson first emailed me, he was not asking me to find an airworthy L-1011 TriStar available at a reasonable price, but instead asked me if I could suggest a good name for his new airline!

Really? I can't find such an email in my files here. Can you send me this, please?

Later, he told me that "Celtic" was his favorite word, no it isn't! so he decided to name the airline "Celtic Airways". Recently, he told me that he would rename his airline "Caledonian Wings", although he didn't tell me the reason this time. Then he emailed me a large chart identifying the names he hopes to apply to the L-1011s being acquired. After that, he introduced me Africargo Airlines, and told me that they operated ACMI leases worldwide with Boeing 747Fs, L-1011Fs and "many" cargo propliners. I searched for the airline in many aviation directories and publications, including "JPAirline Fleets", but I could not find anything about it.

Try looking on the City Connexion website (www.cca-airlines.com) and then look up City Connexion in JP...

Robertson told me that he negotiated with BWIA for three months in acquiring three L-1011-500s. He says that the negotiations were terminated since BWIA asked too much money for the aircraft. But BWIA has nothing about the discussions on their website.

Why do you think BWIA would put something on their site about negotiations which had broken down - especially as afterwards it emerged that a large part of the reason they were overpriced was so that a high asset value would be attributed to their balance sheet - BWIA had a very controversial IPO late last year.

Re: BWIA Rotables holding
Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:29:52 +0100
Neil D Robertson
Celtic Aviation Group
[email protected]

They want to sell me three L1011s plus the spare engines and spares package. We
would then lease back two aircraft to them, as well as providing them with
contract provisioning service (both existing spares and all their
requirements). This will be extended to cover the proposed joint venture
maintenance base.

I'm looking at around US$25m for everything.

What do you think?


[email protected] wrote:

> Neil,
> We are taking a 2nd hard look at the BWIA L1011 & RB211 material. Can you
> advise what their plan or you plan is??? What is their asking or target
> price and would the want to "SELL" it now and lease or enter into an MRO /
> LRE support contract with BPI AEROSPACE (to free up cash and we stock items
> there)?
> Best Regards,

and John's response:

Re: BWIA Rotables holding
Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:44:45 EDT
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

Hello Neil,

They are DREAMING in la, la land. We checked with other MAJOR lenders and
aviation bankers in Europe and in USA about the DA deal and they puked all
over trying to finance the Tristars at a high number (the Future Market
Values are not determinable) and TOO many in the market.

Due to the precedents set in a few prior L1011 deals it would be hard pressed
to get $25MM right now on a package of all the Tristars even if they are
-500's that would include the parts and a spare engine.

We may able able to do a package deal in the $11MM to $12MM range as this is
something we could take to the table and accomplish, but more than that would
be met with too much resistance. Keep in mind they would have lower lease

If they SELL OUT now it may be best for them as the future FMV for non-active
Tristars parked in the desert w/ BWIA history is nil value.

Run that up the flagpole at BWIA and let us know their level of interest....

Best Regards,

Miami, FL
Before summer, Robertson told me that he had plans on setting up a TriStar-only leasing company in Gibraltar named Elten Acquisitions Limited, and that Caledonian Wings would lease the L-1011s from them. Well, what's the point in leasing aircraft from a subsidiary leasing company not even set up? Sorry, Ryo, but I'm afraid you're showing your ignorance of corporate finance here. Because of Gibraltar's tax laws, it makes a great place to register an aircraft or ship lessor as the profits are effectively tax free. I didn't have a Gibraltar company at the time - so one would have had to have been set up. That company would then lease the aircraft to CalWings and other clients - it makes perfect sense!

Recently, Robertson told me his tie up with BPI Aerospace to form a large company to acquire the L-1011s from Delta. But BPI Aerospace has nothing about it on their website either. That's not true - look at their website. On their home page, there's a link to a page on the celticairways.com site announcing the establishment of the partnership; plus see the various emails attached....

Re: Dave DeMars
Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:32:29 EDT
[email protected]
[email protected]


Yes Dave DeMars at Delta did give me a call and he left a message but I was
in Bogota for negotiations with AVIANCA AIRLINES on Thursday and Friday
related to surplus parts, plus I was looking at some tubine/corporate turbo
props that are for sale cheap but without records!!! LOL

I will give Dave a call and thanks for giving him a call to give him a heads
up about the deal and our business relationship, as now he knows there is
collectively ONE group after the planes that is real...

Best Regards,

Anyway, why would anyone form an airline by forming an alliance with a company who's major is in providing spare parts? Think about it! Firstly, the alliance with BPI is at a much higher level than that of simply being an airline - it's at the ACMI point. What does the 'M' in ACMI stand for? And what's one of the biggest requirements in maintenance of L1011s? That's right, spare parts! Now do you see what we're doing? - we're putting together an integrated partnership of companies that would allow us to provide turnkey support to airlines.
One day, a pilot who had lost his job with Kitty Hawk International, because of the airline's bankruptcy, came up to me if I could help him find a new job, of course
as a TriStar pilot. At that point of time, I did not know much about Celtic, so I suggested him to try Celtic, since Robertson had asked me if I could assist him to
collect pilots . The pilot later told me that Robertson answered him, but his words had absolutely no reliability. "The salaries were too good to believe." Eh?? Go to the salaries page on the celticairways.com site. Now compare them with what Delta pilots get - you're looking at 60% or so! Our salaries areabout right for European operators and most certainly are not over-generous.

Turning back to the basics, the most important thing for any kind of business is money. Quite right, it is - and this is the biggest stumbling block that we have, as well as people like R&R (who, incidentally, still do not have any aircraft either) and other prospective L1011 operators. L1011s are effectively unfinanceable - which was why we needed to acquire the whole Delta L1011 package and not just the aircraft. Our plan was to sell the engine overhaul facility and do a sale and leaseback on the RB211-524B4s, which would have generated sufficient cash to finance the acquisition of the aircraft and the refurbishment of those being put back into service.

He has boasted of creating 250 jobs at Prestwick with direct flights to
Orlando, New York, Los Angeles, Toronto, Washington D.C. and Boston for as little as 165 pounds roundtrip. Now, you're using an article that appeared in the Sunday Mail and for which we are taking legal action against them - with the result that this is subjudice. Incidentally, my attorney tells me that your publication of it opens you to action within that case as well.

Here's what I said about this article at the time:

THE man behind Scotland's first international airline is a failed pilot linked to a trail of broken businesses.

Neil Robertson, 35, claims his firm, Caledonian Wings, will pioneer flights from Prestwick to the USA and Canada.

Last week, he claimed he was buying Tristar jets which would be flying across the Atlantic by Easter.

But the closest Robertson has come to being an airline tycoon was running two clapped-out freight planes from a dusty airstrip in Africa.

Even that ended in disaster. Seven months ago, both planes were blown up by explosions which killed more than 100 people.

Wrong - both aircraft were damaged; one has since been repaired and is once again fully operational and based in Kinshasa, DRC on lease to a local airline.

The Sunday Mail can also reveal that Robertson, who calls himself "The Guvnor", has been involved in more than 10 "airlines" - few of which ever made it into the air.

10?!?! - Four, actually, three of which were operational! And 'The Guvnor' is just my nick on PPRuNe, an aviation bulletin board!

His bases have included a string of war-torn African countries notorious for diamond and arms smuggling.

My past bases have been Ostend (Belgium); Lagos (Nigeria); Calgary (Canada); Johannesburg (South Africa) and Bujumbura (Burundi). Not one of those countries could be said to be "notorious for diamond and arms smuggling".

Fife-born Robertson, whose only pilot's qualification is a lapsed licence he bought in Nigeria for pounds 60, returned home to set up Caledonian Wings.

Nope, I've got Nigerian, Burundian and South African licences.I certainly didn't pay £60 for my Nigerian licence! I have some 4,500 hours in total of flying experience - of which over 2,000 hours have been in command of four engined jets.

Plugging the firm on TV and in the Press, he said it would be Scotland's first international airline. Prestwick's managing director, Tom Wilson, was persuaded the new airline could get off the ground.

To the best of my knowledge, it has never been 'plugged' on the TV. Nor have I 'plugged' it in the press - I have simply answered questions as they were posed by the Press - including the author of this article.

He said: "If it gets the planes and finance to start up, there is no doubt it will work.

"We would welcome transatlantic flights back with open arms. It would be a major stimulant for the Ayrshire economy."

Nothing to argue with there - seems to make perfect sense to me!

But despite publishing ticket prices and advertising for staff, Robertson's airline has no aircraft or pilots.

Perhaps the Sunday Mail/Daily Record would like to cover the cost of having aircraft sitting around doing nothing? And doesn't one normally advertise for staff before starting a company - especially one requiring some 250 people?

The company's "switchboard" is Robertson's mobile phone, while the "office" is a laptop computer.

So? This is the age of modern technology. I can run the project effectively from anywhere in the world with that system - for example, I'm in the USA at the moment

And the Civil Aviation Authority has never heard of him or his firm .

The website <http://www.celticairways.com/> makes it very clear that we're going to buy an existing company - this removes the need to apply for our own AOC and Operating Licence - and saves very substantial amounts of time.

On his website, Robertson claims he will be raising pounds 350million to buy and overhaul 44 Tristar airliners.

No, that figure also includes the financing required for an additional upgrade project, which won't happen for several years.

He has boasted of creating 250 jobs at Prestwick with direct flights to Orlando, New York, Los Angeles, Toronto, Washington DC and Boston for as little as pounds 165 return.

Last week, he said he was close to clinching a pounds 30million deal with US airline giant Delta to buy three of its ageing Lockheed Tristars.

Three?!?! That's for the whole Delta package!

The "deal" was to have led to Robertson buying the airline's entire fleet of 295-seater jets.

Don't think too much of the Sunday Mail's subeditor - he's left this glaring inconsistency with the previous sentence in!

He boasted: "We will have no problem filling our seats. It will be carriers like British Airways who will feel the pinch when we start up. As long as we can conclude this deal with Delta, we will be flying by Easter."

That's complete rubbish - I never said that at all! Furthermore, BA doesn't even fly out of Scotland to the USA - only Continental Airlines does (to Newark) and Icelandair (to Baltimore, via Reykjavik)

But a senior Delta source revealed: "The last time this news came out, I checked and the reality was we have never actually talked with them.

"We run up against this sort of thing on a regular basis. It enhances their public perception and, in a lot of cases, enhances negotiations with governments and others to say they are talking with Delta Airlines."

Who exactly was this 'senior Delta source'? We've been talking at some length with their Director of Aircraft Sales - and my partner (John Poindexter, CEO of BPI Aerospace) had a meeting with him 12 days ago. Also, I have no idea how by saying that we're merely talking with Delta that it can "enhance negotiations with governments and others"

Yesterday, an official Delta spokesman said it was their policy not to identify firms involved in buying aircraft until the deal was complete.

Again, the subeditor seems to have left in a glaring inconsistency with the previous sentence!

Robertson's last HQ was an office at Bujumbura Airport in Burundi.


He was involved at various levels with "airlines" in Equatorial Guinea, Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzania and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Nope: Burundi, South Africa, Canada and Nigeria, actually.

The area is notorious for its civil wars, corruption and lawlessness.

Robertson's firms included City Connexions, SecureAir, FreshAir, TransOceanic, PegasusAir, Lionair, Skymaster Freight, Trans Lloyd Cargo and Africargo Airlines.

SecureAir, FreshAir and PegasusAir were all 'service brands' covering particular specialities of Africargo - valuables, perishables and livestoick (especially horses) respectively. TLC was the previous operator of the CL44s; and Skymaster is a company that now owns one of them. Transoceanic was a Nigerian based carrier that operated mainly out of Ostend in the1980s, with two Boeing 707s and a DC8. City Connexion operated regional services from its base in Burundi; which also owned Congo Com Airlines.

But only Africargo operated any aircraft. It was run by Robertson and another of his firms, City Connexions.

Yet another inconsistency - the journo just said that 'only Africargo operated any aircraft'! In any case it's untrue - City Connexion and Congo Com had several Let 410s, one of which is pictured on the company's website at http://www.cca-airlines.com/

Africargo's two propeller-driven freight planes, built in 1961 and 1964, were destroyed at Kinshasa Airport in the Democratic Republic of Congo in April.

Turboprops actually - powered by Rolls Royce Tyne engines - but who's arguing? Both were damaged; one has since been repaired and the other is being repaired at the moment.

The inferno was blamed on a soldier dropping explosives. At least 100 people died and 200 were injured.

Shortly before the catastrophe, City Connexions were also grounded, with Robertson blaming it on "political problems".

The First Vice President of Burundi fell out with the Belgian owners of the group that owned City Connexion - he's a hard-line Tutsi that wanted to impose 'ethnic cleansing' against the Hutus, and the Belgians were quite rightly opposed to this.

The Civil Aviation Authority said anyone wanting to run an airline in the UK would need both an Air Operating Certificate and an Operating Licence.

But a CAA spokeswoman said yesterday they had not been contacted by Caledonian Wings or any other firm Robertson has used for his latest venture - Celtic Airways, Celtic Aviation, Celtic Caledonian, Wings Holdings or the Odyssey Group.

Of course not - we're planning on buying an existing company with those documents already in place - as it clearly states on the website!

One friend of mine who is in the airline business said that in the beginning of this year, Robertson came up to him and asked if he could find a job! Who was this? I certainly have not asked anyone for a job - I've been too busy with the project!

An airline is nothing without aircraft and employees. I tried writing emails to different departments at Wings Holdings, but all of them were replied by Robertson. Is there anyone who works for Robertson? There are around 12 people who have been consistently involved with the project over the last 17 months, with a core team of five of us. I have also looked at all of your emails that I have replied to, and every one of them was sent to either [email protected] (my old email address) or [email protected] You're therefore lying about this point.

Talking more about "aircraft", Robertson reportedly purchased N31023 (msn 1080) from PK Airfinance. It was purchased by our partners, BPI Corporation, Inc; who have previously acquired and broken up L1011s from IAL, Air Transat and TWA; together with B747s from TWA.

Re: Cayman registration
Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:28:12 EST
[email protected]
[email protected]


I just got back from another out west trip to AZ (Kingman) and Las Vegas as
we finally closed and took delivery of our 5th L1011. It is a -50 S/N 1080
(a possible flyer w/ 23K rem to D Check and 1.7 on C check).

HEY - I finally spoke w/ Dave DeMars (he finally called back) and I may go to
see him in ATL on Tuesday AM for a couple hours or so to discuss the L1011's,
how you fit in on the engine OH and airline and leasing side. But I want to
speak to you before I go there.

I will read the CAYMAN thing and get back to you tomorrow ( I am wiped out
tired) as I missed my flight and waited 5 hours in Las Vegas airport last
night... Have you ever gone to an airport gym and done a complete workout
at 3:30 AM?? ( I DID )

Take Care and we will talk tomorrow as Delta is interestedb even in a lower
offer at this point, our lender is more than interested and I found the
EQUITY 25% with the Indians from here (as in TEPEE and FEATHER TYPE).... I

John Poindexter
This fact is extremely hard to believe, since this aircraft is one of the TriStars which have accumulated the highest hours, having logged almost 71,300. In addition, the aircraft has been stored at Kingman, Arizona since its retirement from Trans World Airlines in September 1997. A photographer shared with me a photo of the aircraft sitting on the desert sands at Kingman, and it did not seem airworthy at all.
Well, it doesn't have any engines on it for a start!

Asking PK Airfinance, they said that they haven't heard of Caledonian Wings, (as I said, the aircraft was purchased by BPI) and that the aircraft had to be scrapped soon, since a new owner could not be found. First of all, from an industry observer's point of view, how effective could acquiring 44 overaged, fuel thirsty widebodies be for a startup airline, when maintenance fees and fuel cost a fortune these days?

It seems that you've taken this section from one Holger Ludwig, a seemingly rather unbalanced individual who describes himself as

Holger Ludwig
Chiefpilot EuCom Airlines
High realistic virtual Airline since 1997
Home of the Lockheed L1011 TriStar
Mail : [email protected]
Web : www.eucomairlines.de (http://www.eucomairlines.de)

in an email to me dated the 29th November, he said:

In the last time you sent me some mails and promise me the earth. There
will be hell to pay.You cheat me out of all european L1011 dreams.
That's just why i call my circle of friends in ICAO, FAA, JAA, LBA and
"Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH" (national ATC organisation) to put an end
to your 10th virtual Airline. So much is certain : You have to answer
some unpleasant questions from official site in the next time.
Furthermore i write an articel about you and your Airlines for
publication on all european Airline / Aircraft websites and all german
Aircraft magazines.
Enjoy yourself, delete your caledonian site and go back to africa.

This is not the writing of a 'normal' person - it's really very much over the top and I see that you have listed him and his 'friends' as sources of information.

Tracing Neil Robertson's biography, it revealed that he is a failed pilot linked to a trail of broken businesses. I'm not exactly a "failed pilot" either - the only one of my airlines that I ever flew for was my first, based in Nigeria. My specialities are more along the commercial and marketing areas rather than simply flying aircraft.

He is at age 35, and he claims his firm, Caledonian Wings, will pioneer flights from Prestwick International Airport to the USA and Canada. Hardly - Prestwick was the original Scottish gateway airport and until the late 1980s was the airport into which US and Canadian carriers - as well as UK airlines - would often enter the UK.

Here you contradict yourself as the Sunday Mail did before you...
But the closest Robertson has come to being an airline tycoon was running two clapped-out freight planes from a dusty airstrip in Africa under the name of Africargo Airlines, which was not listed in any airline directories. But, as previously mentioned, Robertson boasted that the airline operated Boeing 747Fs, L-1011Fs and many propliners. That's true - we leased and chartered in aircraft from various airlines to operate cargo services, mainly within Africa.

Robertson has been involved at various levels with "airlines" in Equatorial Guinea, Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzania and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The common
fact about the areas is that all of them are notorious for its civil wars, corruption and lawlessness. Robertson's firms included City Connexions, SecureAir, FreshAir,
TransOceanic, PegasusAir, Lionair, Skymaster Freight, Trans Lloyd Cargo and Africargo Airlines. But only Africargo operated any aircraft. It was run by Robertson and another of his firms, City Connexions. Africargo's two propeller-driven freight planes, built in 1961 and 1964, were destroyed at Kinshasa Airport in the Democratic Republic of Congo in April. The inferno was blamed on a soldier dropping explosives. At least 100 people died and 200 were injured. Shortly before the catastrophe, City Connexions were also grounded, with Robertson blaming it on "political problems".

Hang on .. how could City Connexion have been grounded if it "doesn't exist"? And how could the CL44s be blown up if they don't exist either? Can't have it both ways! In any case, Africargo is/has been listed in several directories.

Even if they had been contacted, applying for such rights takes more than six months national and an additional four months for international routes. Robertson`s plans seem way too premature, don`t they?

Our initial plan was to acquire an existing UK operator that holds the appropriate Operating Licence and Air Operator's Certificate. This would mean that we only have to apply for route licences from the UK (originally, we were going to operate the first season with charter licences which are even faster to obtain) - which out of a non-London airport would be a mere formality; and obtain a DOT402 Foreign Carrier's Permit which again can be accomplished within a few months - no more than six months altogether.

In January 2001, Robertson reported that due to "difficulties", the inaugural flight will not take place until April 2002. But he says that he would take advantage of this
period of time making efforts to gain many certificates he needs in order to commence operations. That's right - we'd now apply for our own Operating Licence and AOC as the company we were going to acquire's licences runs out at the end of this month (here in the UK a company's CAA licences go into suspension for six months after it ceases operations; at the end of which time they are cancelled. This particular company ceased operations at the end of October last year).

He also says that he has posted the availability of their L-1011s for wet-lease contracts and that the response from the industry was great. Can this be? Even Air Atlanta Icelandic, who is well-known for their ACMI leases, is having some hardships in finding contractors.

Where do you get that from? Air Atlanta are doing very well with their 747s and have been actively acquiring additional aircraft (B747s and B767s - something they would not be doing if they were having "hardships" finding lessees!) I've had enquires from perhaps a dozen potential lessees.

Later, Robertson released news that he is now ready to place his first TriStar online, which he claims is N31023 (msn 1080), as previously mentioned. He used the wording "ready to rock'n roll", but is the aircraft really going to? Early this year, a representative from R&R Aviation made a visit to Kingman, Arizona, where N31023 is parked, like most other remaining TriStars which were with Trans World Airlines. He reported that the aircraft was still sitting on sand, missing all of its three engines and many other vital parts, - untrue; the only part other than the engines that have been removed is the TCAS - and looking like if it is going to be scrapped soon. According to his report, the aircraft has not been touched for many years. Well, then what did Robertson mean by "rockÕn roll"?

Simple - as I told you, we have been evaluating its return to service. It's dependent on where it stands in terms of expensive checks and modifications such as the rear web spar, aging aircraft, etc. I have a client that will take it but it needs to make financial sense - otherwise we'll probably just sell it on or break it up.

Well, from the points viewed, a man named Neil Robertson is planning to start transatlantic services as Caledonian Wings, but they have no aircraft, no crew, no
rights, and they are missing the most important thing of all, cash!

As you correctly say, the most important thing is cash - without which there are no aircraft or services. In that area, I'd be the first to admit that we have been very unlucky - the company that owned (and recently sold) Prestwick Airport was very interested in financing the project as it would have had a number of spin-off benefits for them as well as enhancing the marketability of the airport, but with the sale of PIK they have now got themselves out of aviation; and we've come close to doing a deal with a couple of venture capital firms that ending up pulling out because they lost too much in the high-tech sectors to go into another risky area like aviation.

From a financial standpoint, with the sale of the engine facility and the sale and leaseback of the engines, the ACMI operation is self-financing. That's the easy bit. But no one is going to buy those items from us if there's no assurance that we have lessees for the aircraft committed and in place - the whole thing becomes a 'Catch-22' situation.

To set up an airline is astronomically expensive. The UK CAA applies what it calls the 'Free Asset' test: a new airline has to demonstrate sufficient cash reserves to cover three months worth of expenses assuming a nil income. Therefore, to set up CalWings, we would need someone to put up some £25 million (equivalent to nearly US$40m) in cash and guarantees in exchange for around 75% of the company - we would get the balance in exchange for providing the aircraft, crews and management at a much reduced cost.

Also, as this article points out, there are serious doubts about Robertson's words.

I trust that I have now been able to set the record straight and that you will remove this article, replacing it with the apology requested, within no more than seven days.

For some reason best known to themselves, I have come under consistent attack over the last year or so by one or two individuals (including Holger Ludwig) who have absolutely no knowledge of business. One of those individuals has been rather more sinister, though - using multiple identities on PPRuNe and airliners.net including Freeboot, Freenum, Who?, ADC, Whoring_around, etc it was he that gave the Sunday Mail the information in their articles - and which as I previously mentioned we are now taking action against them.

Fwd: Celtic Airways/Africargo
Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:52:51 -0800 (PST)
Free Boot
[email protected]

Oh dear Neil, can you guess what have we told them?

wrote: > Subject: Celtic Airways/Africargo
> To: [email protected]
> From:
> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:42:22 +0000
> Freeboot,
> I would be extremely interested to hear of any
> information about the above
> companies or their CEO - a man you appear to have
> some knowledge of.
> Celtic are aquiring a great deal of publicity in
> Scotland, all favourable.
> There is, I believe, a different side to this story.
> I have already gathered a great deal of information
> about the companies and
> CEO but I am convinced you have information which
> you would prefer was more
> widely known.
> As you'll see from the e-mail tag, I work for
> newspaper.
> Any correspondence between us will, of course, be
> completely confidential.
> You have my word.
> Regards
> IMPORTANT NOTICE The information in this e-mail is
> confidential and should
> only be read by those persons to whom it is
> addressed and is not intended
> to be relied upon by any person without subsequent
> written confirmation of
> its contents. Furthermore, the content of this
> e-mail is the personal view
> of the sender and does not represent the advice,
> views or opinion of our
> company. Accordingly, our company disclaim all
> responsibility and accept
> no liability (including in negligence) for the
> consequences of any person
> acting, or refraining from acting, on such
> information prior to the receipt
> by those persons of subsequent written confirmation.
> In particular (but
> not by way of limitation) our company disclaims all
> responsibility and
> accepts no liability for any e-mails which are
> defamatory, offensive,
> racist or in any other way are in breach of any
> third party's rights,
> including breach of confidence, privacy or other
> rights. If you have
> received this e-mail message in error, please notify
> me immediately by
> telephone. Please also destroy and delete the
> message from your computer.
> Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying,
> disclosure, modification,
> distribution and/or publication of this e-mail
> message is strictly
> prohibited.

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/

Unfortunately, by publishing the article you have done, it simply makes my job of trying to get financing for any of these projects so much harder and it therefore makes it much less likely that the L1011s will return to the air. You have therefore done exactly what people like Freeboot want you to do - for confirmation of that, go to www.pprune.org (http://www.pprune.org) and click on the 'non aviation issues' forum where you'll see a a posting from him (in his Who? guise) providing a link to this article.

Why do I say this? Well, not only do quite a few financiers and other well connected individuals read (and sometimes post) on PPRuNe and airliners.net; and even those that don't use the internet (and search engines such as Google) as part of their due diligence. This is why we view articles such as yours in such a negative light and why we have already taken legal action against several people.

I have invested over a year and several hundred thousand dollars in trying to get this operation up and running. At stake is potentially many millions of dollars and a very successful operation - and as I am sure you will understand, I do not look at all kindly on people such as Freeboot, Holger Ludwig and the Sunday Mail and now yourself jeopardising that.

If I was doing something illegal - such as taking money from prospective pilots or passengers, or otherwise defrauding people, I can understand you and others wanting to warn people. But I am not. I am simply trying to accomplish the near-impossible - get a fairly large L1011 ACMI operation up and running.

At the end of the day, like it or not, we are the best hope the L1011 has of medium term survival. I - and my colleagues - are fully convinced of their economic and technical viability, as long as we can acquire them on reasonable terms that takes into consideration the market's view of them. If, however, thanks to the crap that some people have been trying to create about us for their own personal reasons it becomes impossible for us to do something with the L1011s we will simply more on to much more financeable - if much more expensive - aircraft, such as the B767 or DC10 and leave the L1011 to its fate.

It would be a dreams-come-true for we TriStar fans and enthusiasts worldwide, to be able to see 44 L-1011s return to the skies, and it`s sure that Scotland would appreciate the development of tourism, but we can't hold much hope in this one. Caledonian Wings is likely end up betraying all our hopes and dreams, turning itself into just a cluster of broken promises...

This last bit really is unfair. I don't see you - or any of the other "TriStar fans and enthusiasts worldwide" contributing so much as a cent (let alone dollar!) to the very large amount of money we've spent on this so far. Where, then, are the promises we have supposedly broken - and as for your "hopes and dreams" then don't you think that it would be nice to see a positive contribution on the part of all those "TriStar fans and enthusiasts worldwide"?

Ryo, I hope that you can now see how you have been used by others and that you will do the honourable thing and apologise. In particular, I was very hurt that you saw fit to publish this without the courtesy of at least giving me the opportunity to put my side of things; I have kept you well informed as to what has been happening at my end.

I look forward to hearing from you in the very near future.


22nd Oct 2001, 00:44
I am sure to get flamed here, but what the hell (and no I am not a Guvnor clone!)

I read most of the long letter which you posted despite the Guvnor's request that you do not.

It seems to me to be a fair rebuttal of the claims made in the web article that gets trotted out just about any time that Mr Robertson enters the PPRuNe fray.

Clearly, I am new to PPRuNe (actually I do have an older id, but I cannot remember its name, let alone the password!), so that may go some way to the fact that I am far from fed up with his posts. Long may they continue.

I confess that I am somewhat surprised that he takes most of the flaming in good humor. A lesser mortal would have given up with PPRuNe long ago. But no, The Guvnor takes it all on the chin and continues. I have the greatest of respect for his humility.

Lastly, as he has stated above, the Cal Wings project is on hold, for obvious reasons. Please can we put the "failed business" aspects of your response to the Guvnor to rest now, once and for all? If you are dissatisfied with his posts, say so - fair enough. But don't make his failed Tristar venture an excuse as to why you feel his points are somehow wrong. He makes valid, entertaining posts, which add to the discussion on PPRuNe.

Or just maybe you're just jealous that he has exceeded the 3K post mark? ;)

22nd Oct 2001, 02:49
Sadly, I thing the Guv is in the situation of being between the devil and the deep blue sea!

I can, of course, understand that any airline developments are being put on hold at present, however, as is being seen on a daily basis by all the major carriers, the 11th is being used as an excuse to cut all manner of services (BA/LHR-BFS is *alledgedly* a prime example) and I do, in my cynical way, wonder if this carries to Caledonian Wings?

But posting that e-mail above hasn't helped either, as e isn't a legal document (i.e. you can change it as you see fit) so I'm not sure what Guv was hoping to achieve by forwarding that to people who posted stuff about him on a website. If they are, as he implies, Tristar nutters, then as the saying goes "Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".

I think, personally, I'd have just let it be, wound my neck in and given up posting controversial tosh that incites comments...

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: Daifly ]

22nd Oct 2001, 03:15
Who cares about L1011's anyway? The Guv is an interesting sociable guy. He sure has a talent for drawing out the worst in folks though! :D

22nd Oct 2001, 04:19
He's very generous with the Cuban cigars, as well! :)

22nd Oct 2001, 15:59
That The Guvnor has a talent for stirring up strong emotions is undenable. He has on several occasions got me on the verge of getting angry. However, with one exception I haven't joined the 'Guv bashing' as most of it is repetative and often a bit silly. Sometimes he posts things that are out of order-ie running down the managment of just about every other airline.
The point is, he does come up with some VERY GOOD POINTS. But the truth is not always easy to hear, is it?
I think many people on PPRUNE see the name GUVNOR and switch on AUTO_RAGE mode with out actually thinking wether his opinion is valid or not.
Why not just count to ten and then give a considered approach to what he says? If he's talking rubbish (and most people are far more qualified to decide that than me, as I don't yet work in the airline industry) then fair enough-tell him. Otherwise-live and let live.
For all his faults, The Guvnor is one of the most literate writers, and is capable of entertaining posts.
Like him or loath him, he is formed part of the character of PPRUNE!
(And please don't assume form now on I'm a Guvnor worshiper. I'm not that or an detrator. I'm just sugesting some common sense to be applied to him!)

Dick Deadeye
23rd Oct 2001, 06:46

Nope, he's still a tosser!

23rd Oct 2001, 06:57
Cuban cigars eh, maybe I oughta met this guy.

23rd Oct 2001, 08:30
It doesn't matter where a cigar comes from, all you're really doing is sticking a big 'ol smelly turd in your mouth, why waste more than ten cents a piece on them?

ps. I was a smoker for seven years, and tried a cigar or two so I'm not saying this as some kind of militant anti smoker.


23rd Oct 2001, 12:53
Well, I have to admit that I haven't actually tried an honest comparison, but I think I probably could tell the difference if I tried to light up a turd...

24th Oct 2001, 00:07
Mert, you infidel. :D :D

24th Oct 2001, 04:23
Sanjosebaz - jealous of having made over 3000 posts? I doubt it. Personally I would be embarassed to have led such a sad life over the past few years to spend that amount of time on Pprune.

24th Oct 2001, 05:01
Fair comment! I unreservedly withdraw that remark ;)

24th Oct 2001, 11:10
Cigars eh? Now what was it that ex-Pres. Clinton did with one of those in the Monica saga? Does The Guvnor do that too? :D

The Guvnor
24th Oct 2001, 11:33
Kiltie - there are a fair number of other PPRuNers that have similar levels of postings - HugMonster and BEagle to name but two!

The overwhelming majority of my posts are out of working hours - which might indicate that I don't have much of a social life, but then that's my problem - not yours.

Or perhaps it indicates that I'm actually working an 18 hour day, seven days a week, trying to put together an airline so that pilots, engineers and support staff (I assume you fit into one of those categories) - can have a job.

Now, what positive contribution to the world of aviation have you been doing? :D :rolleyes: :D

Sensible - I cannot tell a lie. So I'm not telling. ;) :eek: ;)

24th Oct 2001, 12:36
Having formed single-handedly and run a successful company for the last seven years I can agree that, yes, you do have a "problem" as you say not having a social life and I have met many people with big ideas and no financial clout over the years.

Your Godly-like ending to your last post of "making a positive contribution to aviation" implies that all aviation staff owe people like you a favour. Bull. Frankly you come across as too much of a computer geek to be a serious businessman; your handle of "The Guvnor" just demonstrates how important you think you are already even though you don't actually govern anyone or anything. My staff work to earn themselves money and are fully aware that they line my pockets at the same time. That's the way it works.

Perhaps this airline of yours would have more chance of getting off the ground if you stopped discussing your business tactics and plans with complete strangers on a social website and learned the importance of discretion.

I'm off to work, followed by 2 airline sectors, followed by a night's socialising (with non-virtual friends).

The Guvnor
24th Oct 2001, 13:53
Kiltie - so what sector is your business in, then? And how long - from original concept - did it take you to get up and running? How much money did you have to raise? All of that needs to be put into context.

As for discussing things with 'complete strangers': to me, that tends to show that either you're perfection personified when it comes to business matters - in which case congratulations are in order and I'm sure your net worth is well in excess of that of Soros or Buffett by now - or you're someone that believes that they are right and everyone else is wrong - in which case I don't think your business will be around a lot longer.

You see, the reason that I discuss general concepts - and those who are really in the know in terms of what I have been working on will agree with this - is that I am fully aware of my own weaknesses and lack of knowledge in certain areas. I can say that I have been helped immesurably by these 'discussions' - many of them with people presenting a point of view that I initially disagreed with but subsequently was persuaded as to the merit of their arguments.

One can be an MO'L type CEO and rule by fear in the sure and certain knowledge that whatever s/he does is 100% right; or alternatively one can aspire to be the sort of CEO that Herb Kelleher was and recognise that everyone has a positive contribution to make in the organisation no matter what their title may be.

I know what type I'd rather be!

24th Oct 2001, 17:39
From the archives:

From : "Ryosuke Yano" <[email protected]>
To : [email protected]

Subject : Re: Celtic Airways-new start up.

Date : Mon, 23 Apr 2001 00:25:01 -0400

Thank you for the support Freeboot.

I have received so many emails from Robertson that keep saying that everything in my article is false, and that ALL OF MY SOURCES (including Delta and Sunday Mail), are either liars, or fooling me. How can this be? Although I am not related to any kind of L-1011 organizations, I am linked with a number of people who work with the L-1011. Everybody except for Robertson himself has denied the existence of CalWings. Even Sunday Mail, a newspaper in the UK, which has taken up Robertson a few times before as a "dreamer". The soruce also told me that Robertson once became a scandal when it revealed (don't know how) that his laptop computer had numerous "inappropriate" images.

A few days ago, I received the following message from Robertson:
"You therefore have until 0900 GMT on Monday, 23 April 2001 to respond to my various emails, remove the article and
submit to me an appropriate apology. I have given you more than ample opportunity to rectify things; and unless you now
comply I will instruct my attorneys to take appropriate action against you."

More research revealed that my article was not ALL correct. Actually, the situation was even more rediculous. The article states that all Robertson has succeeded was in flying two CL-44s in Africa. Wrong. The owner of one of the CL-44s came up to me and said that Robertson is a compete liar, and does not even own, or has owned a single aircraft... and has NEVER have even created an airline. All he had for each "airline" was dream-like homepages. Robertson also claims that he is a "good" certified pilot, and that he has $50 million in his hands to start CalWings. False. According to a man who has been in a plane with him, he does not have any kind of certificate and is not even close to getting one. Delta has reported that they have "talked" with Robertson a "few" of times, but revealed that Robertson did not seem to be reliable client. But Robertson tells me that Delta says that all L-1011s are "reserved" for him. Impossible, don't you think?

So many people have come up to me to tell everybody the TRUTH of what Robertson is doing, and who he is. I will continue the investigation, but most of this has already come out of the dark. I am willing to retain the article on my website until Robertson withdraws from fooling and telling lies to people who work hard with/on the L-1011.

Best Regards,
Ryo Yano

24th Oct 2001, 18:22
Oooooh! The plot thickens!!

The Guvnor
24th Oct 2001, 19:10
Well, at least it shows one thing - that ZambAero is indeed Who?/Freeboot/Freenum/Napoleon and too many other identities to recall.

The previous posting by Freeboot, sorry, ZambAero includes an email from the journo who wrote the Sunday Mail article to Freeboot - and from what I've been able to establish, Freeboot was in fact his one and only source of information - all of it maliciously erroneous.

I am indeed a part owner of the CL44s - as has been independently corroborated by other PPRuNers - together with two other individuals; and as for any of the other 'claims' made by Yano; he manages to contradict himself so many times that by the time one has finished reading it one doesn't know whether one is Arthur or Martha! :D :D :D

24th Oct 2001, 19:22
Well then Guv, sue him! You said you would, so do it!

If your story is so watertight, you've got nothing to lose!

I've got a part share in a Ford Escort 1.6... beat that.

24th Oct 2001, 21:38
Guv: Maybe you can excuse him from being a little retentive, once you realize that Ryosuke Yano is an anagram of Ye rooky anus. ;)

The Guvnor
25th Oct 2001, 00:14
Daifly - do you have a cool £100,000 (rock bottom minimum) to waste on some student in Japan? Nope? Nor do I. I did go some way down track with the Sunday Mail which as Scottish readers know makes the News of the World look positively cerebral - but my solicitor advised against it on the basis that they are likely to have lots more money than I do and there's no such thing as legal aid for libel - you have to pay the full whack.

It's probably cheaper getting one of those tattooed Jap gents to pay him a visit ... :D ;) :D

Sanjosebaz - probably explains why he speaks out of his nether regions then! ;) :eek: ;)

[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

25th Oct 2001, 00:28
probably cheaper getting one of those tattooed Jap gents to pay him a visit

Careful - he may well be one of said tattooed people.

Best leave be: Nips that pass in the sh!te :D

Deep Float
25th Oct 2001, 02:50
He kicks against frele pilot's egoes, gets discussions going and rocks all the holy houses in aviation. As mentioned, every forum needs some of those. In the process, he sometimes makes a fool of himself, with the Lawyergirl saga on airliners.net as one of the highlights. I think it's very entertaining. I was even on one of his business plans once!! Never met him, but would love to share a beer once. You can't really judge someone until you've met that person. In the meantime, wouldnt Pprune be ever so boring if there were only pilots talking??

25th Oct 2001, 03:22
Hear Hear! I wouldn't mind one of his Cuban Cigars, either :p

25th Oct 2001, 22:50
Yes Mr Paranoid, we're all out to getcha, and we're all the same person :rolleyes: :eek: :p !!!

26th Oct 2001, 06:27
why does the guv get so many threads :confused:

i never see any asking who i really am :(

should i claim to be setting up an airline too :p

26th Oct 2001, 15:07
How about this one:

From :
"Free Boot" <[email protected]>
To :
[email protected]

Subject :

Date :
Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:15:03 -0000

Quite pathetic really that Robertson threatens you for not telling the truth!
I think you may have guessed that I have aquired documents and copies of documents, from former friends and collegues of this man.
Personal qualifications
He has admitted to obtaining a Nigerian ALTP through fraudulent means.
I have a p/copy of a self-made Kiribati licence.
I have p/copies of forged Liberia and Equatorial Guinea ALTP's. I also have a copy of an airport pass for Malabo with Robertson's signature as the issuing officer! The correct issuing authority is in the UK and can be easily contacted to confirm these as fakes.
I have a photograph of the licences board at Bujumbura airport which does not show a Burundi licence issued to Robertson.
I have The South African Civil Aviation Authority's details of Robertson's PPL.
We are still awiting him to provide any other flight training details for himself, let alone details of his B707 and DC8 type training. Also interested to find who insured the aircraft he now claims to have flown as aircraft commander?
I have a p/copy of his UK passport with Kiribati diplomatic status entered onto it. This passport later vanished. Very strange!
And of course we're still awaiting any details of his Msc in child psychology and Msc in air transport management. If he actually had these claimed qualification he would surely have given details to proove myself and others liars, but suprisingly ... nothing.

Sid's Stars
26th Oct 2001, 15:31
First off, Who?/Zambaero/Freeboot or whatever your name is its a bit rich to have a go at someone for having several IDs when you have had so many yourself!

Next, what's your latest bit of ****-stirring supposed to prove? I could say the same about you or anyone else. Even if you can produce these things, none of them prove anything except you've got a thing about The Guv, and given your other bs chances are you probably made them yourself anyway.

Lots of people here seem to have met The Guv and he seems to be a knowledgeable bloke with a great line in Cuban Cigars. Thats more than can be said about you.

So just p1ss off back to Zambia or wherever you really come from and stop wasting Dannys bandwidth on [email protected]

Celtic Emerald
26th Oct 2001, 18:14
I think 'Celtic Emerald Airways' would be a really brill name for your new airline Dingy if I may be so bold as to suggest ;) Has a sort of familiar ring about it, can't possibly think why :confused:

Anyway where would PPRuNers be without the Guv now OCB's gone. Everyone loves having an underdog around to kick & the Guv seems to fulfill that role on this BB for alot of ya to the tee.


27th Oct 2001, 14:33
not a bad idea emmy my dear :)
i would of course have to paint the aircraft green
and green is my favorite colour :D

28th Oct 2001, 04:24
Not bad Guv, I'd say you handled that reasonably coolly.

Can't say I read the long letters, tend to skip after the first 10,000 words, he really does seem to have an itch though, you must have pissed off someone somewhere pretty badly.

Don't agree with you all the time but you say it pleasantly enough. Danny hasn't turfed you out yet so I guess you will grace us with your presence for a while yet. :)

1st Jan 2002, 15:56
Hey everyone, do you remember that forum where The Goobner was posting as Ceilidh or some similar name pretending to be someone else, well guess what I have just discovered?

Sid's Stars is another of the Goobners aliases. I can guarantee that if the Goobner is exposed for the liar that he is then Sid's Stars is not far behind backing himself up. Even in threads dealing with the seedier side of African aviation you will see Sid's Stars popping up if not before then just after he has posted as the Guvnor.

The ONLY way this liar gets any backing is from his own aliases. EXPOSED again Guv!

Sid's Stars
1st Jan 2002, 22:03

OK, there you go. I'm the Guv. I'm also TowerDog, HalesAndPace, sanjosebaz, Daifly, Blacksheep, Sensible, Captain James Bigglesworth, Deep Float, dingducky, Celtic Emerald, Paterbrat and HugMonster.

When are you going to do what the Guv and me and others have challenged you to do and come up with proof of the [email protected] you've been posting about him?

2nd Jan 2002, 00:29
Is there anyone else out there who believes anything that the Guvnor has ever said about himself or his past?

2nd Jan 2002, 03:47
Just to add to the evidence i will post the links on here as the other thread has been closed.

Just thought I would make it easier for you all to see the evidence that Sid's Stars is also the Goobner, in fact if you follow the links I have provided to the posts you will see that Sid's Stars would get the Goobner pregnant if he did not use protection.

All the links I provide below are just some of the ones where I have noticed Sid's Stars sticking his nose so far up his own orifice as he gushes about the Goobner. Just see for yourselves because I had nothing better to do downroute in an internet cafe.

This bozo even admits it in one as he tries a bit of reverse psychology <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

<a href="http://Flighthttp://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017182&p=6" target="_blank">AA Captain Throws Secret Service Agent Off</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017060&p=2" target="_blank">BA Unable to Meet Branson's Challenge on Slots at LHR</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016847&p=5" target="_blank">Brits poised to Invade Canada? Again!</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=005257&p=3" target="_blank">Who is this Guvnor Bloke Anyway?</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=41&t=002347" target="_blank">In FLL on the 6th November? Want to rub shoulders with Sir Freddie Laker?</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016315" target="_blank">Michael O'Leary - AIR-FACED CHEEK</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016290&p=2" target="_blank">All Over for Sabena?</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016279&p=2" target="_blank">UNIQUE Swiss Pilots !!</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016214&p=2" target="_blank">Rastas thrown off plane !</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016127&p=4" target="_blank">Ryanair at it again!</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016151&p=2" target="_blank">Apology to Pilots from The Guvnor</a>

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=015644" target="_blank">Airlines to be Grounded Over Changes in Insurance Rules?</a>
THis is the one where he even admits it although he will of course deny it but those of you who have followed through this far will see the trend. [quote]Yes, Notso Fantastic I did indeed delete my original post (with your pathetic response) and I hoped you had got the message. Unfortunately not.

And yes, I admit it. I am Sids Stars.<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://]http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=004919&p=3" target="_blank">Should the Guvnor Quit Pprune ?</a>

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Just read the posts in the links from Sid and find the the Guv posts mostly before and sometimes after and you will see Sid aka Goobner sucking his own dick! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Also Sid, I will post ALL my evidence very soon and I will expose you for the liar and deceiver that you know you are. Neil Robertson aka the Goobner aka Sid Stars and a few more which I will reveal and then I will post all your lies and deceptions on here. I will prove your lies about your non existent pilots licences but I will reveal the information on the forgeries. I will reveal your lies about your non existent jet pilot experience but your bragging in many threads over the years will be exposed. I will also expose your lies about your non existent degrees but I will also expose your past of corruption and decipt.

You claim to know who I am, in that case expose me. I will help you, Bruce Hobbs from Melbourne but you knew that. You sad Walter Mitty existence is your downfall. You cannot come on a pilots website and bulshit your way around pretending you are an experienced airline pilot and in your case you bullshit about being an airline owner and I will prove the lies in that. Yes, Sid will say that he knows it is true but he would as he is the only one to back you because Sid is you. I have the evidence for that too you arsehole! :)

Kermit 180
2nd Jan 2002, 09:24
So you see, Herr Draper, it isnt just you they bring the archival Whoopass out on.

Gunner B12
2nd Jan 2002, 14:36
OZ Dude

I know there is no moderator in jet blast but try reading the bit about "ten thingys" at the beginning of the dunnunda forum and try not to attack the person. Quite frankly I don't care who proves what. The guy's posts are interesting and definitely don't have the feeling of manic obsession such as your last post.

By the way I am not the Gov.

Even if he is a Walter Mitty type his posts seem informed and informative. They provoke interesting discussion even if sometimes a little insensitve to the prima donna persona's of some.

There is a stance often assumed by some in healthy debate known as playing the devils advocate. This is because it would be boring as hell if everybody held the same viewpoint. I for one come to this site to take part in healthy debate or to observe it. Yours does not seem a healthy viewpoint, live and let live. Debate the topic not the contributor.


I think I am about to become you in this persons mind. Does this mean you pick up part of my mortgage???

Keep posting and by the way I had my own business twice. No where near the grandeur of your proposal but I say twice as I went belly up once and ended up working in a petrol station at nights while working during the day to get it going again. So I sympathise even if the others don't


No I don't work in the business I'm a 45yr old wannabe who has only been taking lessons (PPL) for a month I've got about 10 hrs in and I damn well will be a pilot one day and you will then be able to look down you noses at the mere PPL as I've already experienced in an unguarded instructors moment. It doesn't make my point of view any less valid though.

2nd Jan 2002, 17:15
Gunner, I know you are not the Goobner but you fail to understand the problem here. The Goobenr may be good at posting articles from newspapers but he is also a conman, wanted by several agencies for fraudulent activities. I know he has caused a lot of grief for a few ppruners by his illegal activities.

You seem incapable of understanding that this person is a danger to anyone who deals with him because of his slimy nature. By all means befriend him, as others have done, but DO NOT let him stay with you, do not tell him your address, do not tell him your full name and date of birth.

You are extremely naive if you think I am doing this for the fun of it. The Goobner is a con man. He will use many methods to rip people off. His airline set up is a fantasy. He would love to be in the airline business but he cant because of his reputation and the various warrants out for him.

He is a liar of the first order and he lulls people into a false sense of security with his charming stories but in reality he is out to embezzle or defraud. There are many ppruners who have met and almost all of them will agree that he is a loser.

I will keep repeating it, the Goobner is not and never has been a pilot and he has never been to university but he claims to speak with authority and add his remarks to issues that he only fantasises about being a part of. Because of that and the kind of person he is I will continue to expose him becuaese those of us in this business prefer to deal with people of upstanding character and not con men with Walter Mitty imaginations and extremely dubious backgrounds which also involve allegations of depraved acts to name a few.

Just go back and read the posts by Sid and you will begin to get an insight into how this certifiable liar acts. He has a deep need to be believed and he creates these characters because no real people exist to provide the support for him.

I am a pilot and I fly all over the world and at the moment I enjoy being able to talk with other pilots downroute but we all agree that fantasists like this faker are just parasites that try to infiltrate amongst us. You Gunner should at least be aware of what people like this Goobner/Sid can end up being like if you just do some searching about The Wizard who was exposed on here by Blackadder several years ago.

Go get your licence but do not preach to us who try to keep the Walter Mittys out of our business. The Goobner has put himself on a pedestal and he has set himself up for a fall from it. There is nothing more despised amongst pilots than someone like this Goobner who claims to be one with lots of experience flying jets when in fact he has no pilots licence except some forgeries. He is as bad if not worse than one of those people who falsify their log books.

The Guvnor
2nd Jan 2002, 18:20
OzDude - haven't you heard the old saying: when you're in a hole, stop digging?

I was intending to ignore your childish attempts at insinuating all sorts of horrible things on my part but you've gone well over the line on this one.

I've challenged you on a number of occasions - as have others - to put up or shut up. You have not done so. You claim to have lots of "proof" of things - let's see it then: now and not in the "few days" you obviously need to manufacture it. You've been making these claims for the last six months or so, so no need for any further delay.

Since you base your rather illogical premise that Sid's Stars is me simply because we have been posting on a few threads (and I note going through the links you provide that s/he doesn't even agree with me on all of the posts that I've made) then it's clear that you are, in fact, Freeboot, Freenum, ZambAero, Whoring_around, Napoleon etc. In fact, let's look on this page and what do we see... yep, your alter-ego ZambAero backing you up!

So, from the top - based on your last post, which I regard as libellous - I want from you forthwith:

1) You said that I am "wanted by several agencies for fraudulent activities" - name those agencies and specify what these 'fraudulent activities' are.

2) You say: "I know he has caused a lot of grief for a few ppruners by his illegal activities." - name those PPRuners.

3) You say: "DO NOT let him stay with you, do not tell him your address, do not tell him your full name and date of birth." - so who exactly am I supposed to be impersonating (I assume this is what you are getting at?)

4) You say "He will use many methods to rip people off." - what are these many methods, who have they been used on, and to what effect?

5) You say "...various warrants out for him" - issued by whom and for what?

6) You say "...in reality he is out to embezzle or defraud" - who exactly have I done this to, and how?

7) You say "There are many ppruners who have met and almost all of them will agree that he is a loser." - who are these majority of PPRuNers I have met that would say this?

8) You said: "...is not and never has been a pilot..." - can you prove this?

9) You said: "...he has never been to university ..." - can you prove this?

Kindly provide a valid address at which you can be served personally with the appropriate papers.

If I was your employer and I saw your postings, I'd be extremely concerned about your mental stability. As Gunner B 1 2 quite rightly points out, you're displaying clear signs of a manic personality together with obsessive behaviour. Based on these worrying personality traits, I'd say that you are therefore not a fit person to be in control of an aircraft where one requires coolness under pressure.

I am fascinated that someone with whom I have never knowingly come into contact can develop such an obsession with me.

Tell me, is this a gay thing? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

2nd Jan 2002, 18:39
Hey guys, we need to relax a bit here. This is getting a bit disturbing…almost obsessive.

I’ve had an argument with this Govnor person and I even won (well, he never came back with a rebuttal) Most of his viewpoints are at odds with mine, but it doesn’t mean he hasn’t got an equal right to express these just like everyone else on the forum. He did post a very good argument on the Cleveland child abuse saga and while I know nothing about psychology… I got the impression that he most certainly did.

That brings me to the warrants (unconfirmed) that have been issued by various agencies around the World. If they get in touch with the Scottish Police I’m sure they would have no difficulty in picking him up. Since he is still at liberty I assume that the warrants haven’t been presented or that they don’t exist or something else is wrong. (I wouldn’t know, not being a legal type chap myself) If I were defrauded by anyone, I would make sure the relevant authorities stopped him or her.

With regard to the fake licences, what use are they? They don’t give you the skill to actually fly anything. I’m pretty sure that most pilots could spot someone in a flight deck that can’t fly. I’m also pretty sure my license doesn’t give me any privilege other that of flying an airplane. In the interest of longevity it isn’t really a good idea to get airborne without the skill to land safely…ok except that really scary experience of your first solo.

I almost never agree with this guy but he does make you think. If he is a “Walter Mitty” type so what? He still has an interesting slant on things and I don’t see him as a danger to anyone, but then I’m not about to lend money or give sensitive personal information to anyone on a public forum. If he has defrauded anyone then it’s up to them to do something about it…just my two penny’s worth guys

PS I’m not him either. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I'd rather
2nd Jan 2002, 19:04
Seems to me now is the time to post your evidence, Ozdude. You've been saying you will for some time - if you delay any longer, I'd say you risk losing credibility.

The Guvnor
2nd Jan 2002, 19:07
I'd rather - what credibility? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

OK, I admit it. I'd rather is another of my identities. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> As indeed is anyone that has ever agreed with me about anything. :)

Big Tudor
2nd Jan 2002, 19:08
Well said max_cont. You would have thought that, with the amount of time The Guv spends on Pprune, it would be pretty easy for "the authorities" to put a trace on him !!! His main crime as far as I can see is that he has a go at airline management and pilots. If that is a crime then most airline ground staff are guilty!

And who cares whether he went to university or not. Jeffery Archer claimed all sorts over the years and it didn't do him any harm. Well, apart from board and lodgings at Mer Majesty's Pleasure.

Hold at Saffa
2nd Jan 2002, 20:10
Ozdude, I have to thank you. I cannot remember such an entertaining afternoon in a very long time.
First, let me reassure you that I am not the Guv'nor either, although I will admit to several pleasant and engaging emails with him over recent months. These have been, broadly speaking, a sharing of information and a contribution to debate on a variety of issues, mainly to do with my present employer
<a href="http://www.project-phoenix.ch/en/project/businessplan.html" target="_blank">http://www.airlinecrew.net/images/Airline_logos/crx.gif</a>
My wife and I have had the most wonderful afternoon reading through all your contributions and she, a forensic Psychiatrist for over 18 years specialising in adolescent cases, has suggested that you are in fact, a young woman deeply in need of attention. She, my wife, has bound me to say that you are a wonderful person with a lot to contribute to the world, and that you should share yourself with others much more often.

On the other hand, I have a rather different impression.
Are you in fact short, of either:-
a. Penis
b. Stature
c. Humour
d. All of the above.
[quote]There is nothing more despised amongst pilots than someone like this Goobner who claims to be one with lots of experience flying jets <hr></blockquote>
Actually, Dude, there is.

2nd Jan 2002, 20:16
Goobner, no use in trying to ride on the back of your 'popular' support. There will always be people who are easily fooled by your pleasant outgoing nature. It is the web of deceit that lies behind you that is of concern. Those supporters of your cause are like those environmentalists in Australia who have campaigned to prevent the regular burning off of the deadwood because it might hust a few critters but now they have uncontrollable fires in their back yard. They mean well but are really just dreamers.

As you very well know I gave you my address by private email months ago and you still have not served me with any papers because you know you are a liar. You are making all the running on this by pretending you are some big shot and claiming to everyone that you are going to sue me.

I really dont care what the others think of me. I am just making sure that Goobner is exposed for the liar that he is.

The Goobner is Sid's Stars. He can deny it as much as he likes but I have the evidence. I will reveal that evidence in good time. It is only a small part of the deception that he is involved in but a bit that you can all see for yourselves. He knows who I am but he will never take me to court as he knows he has no case.

As for his false licences, that just proves that he is a Walter Mitty and a sad case of a pretender. As one of you pointed out, Jeffrey Archer was an interesting man but he too got so far up some peoples noses on that pedestal of his and look where that got him? Prison! Precisely why Goobner will not sue me although he does know who I am because perjury is a serious offence.

I will post again soon when I have a few more days off at my next destination.

The Guvnor
2nd Jan 2002, 21:08
OzDude - I have just looked through my folder of correspondence with PPRuNers (i retain all of it) and guess what. There's nothing from you there. This means one of three things: either (a) you're a liar; (b) you're using another identity; or (c) both. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Since you claim to have already provided me with your address, you should have no problems resending it to the address in my profile.

I'm also rather surprised at this "popular support" you claim for me. Didn't you previously say: "There are many ppruners who have met and almost all of them will agree that he is a loser."

I note too that - yet again - you have evaded answering the challenge I have set. Surely, since you made these allegations in the first place - and since you spent so much time and effort putting together the links that allegedly 'prove' that I am Sid's Stars (or that SS is me)you surely have sufficient time on this long layover that you told us about yesterday to answer those nine questions?

Ah, I see that your 'long layover' appears to have been cut short. Hmmmm, are you sure that you are really a pilot?

I also note that you have revised your timescale for the great revelation of evidence from "very soon" to "in good time" which I assume is your version of "never, coz I don't have it".

Hold at Saffa - I'd go for option 'd' there.

2nd Jan 2002, 22:08
OzDude - As The GUV pointed out in an earlier post sueing(?) for libel is a bloody expensive thing too do! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

But he chould/may, and then chould you afford to deffend yourself? :)

Think about what you post in future, as I for one do not want Danny to close Jetblast (as he has done more then once in the past) coz of your Rants!! And neither whould a lot of other PPRuNEr's! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Hold at Saffa
2nd Jan 2002, 22:09
OzDude, sweetie:
[quote]It is the web of deceit that lies behind you that is of concern. <hr></blockquote>
Of concern to whom?

But since you're SO vewy vewy cwoss...go ahead...we're all waiting with bated breath. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

2nd Jan 2002, 23:21
Just to correct our Aussie mate, NDR is in fact a pilot!
True, he used to hold a PPL issued from South Africa, now expired! However any thoughts of his ever being a COMMERCIAL pilot are false. He admitted to aquiring a Nigerian ALTP by fraudulent means (interesting as he didn't even have a PPL at that time), claimed to have a Burundi ALTP which has been proved to be a lie, and manufactured for himself various documents including a Kiribati ALTP.
And then he's claimed to have 4000hours in command of 4-engine jets (B707 and DC8), and yet only a couple ogf years later he had to battle through the full flight sylabus to get a South African PPL.

Almost forgot:
<a href="http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html" target="_blank">http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html</a>
:) :) :)

[ 02 January 2002: Message edited by: ZambAero ]</p>

The Guvnor
2nd Jan 2002, 23:47
ZambAero- I think you'll find that that's the third (or fourth) time that link has been posted on this particular thread. You'll recall that - despite my saying that I didn't want it posted as it contained commecrially confidential information - you already posted my response to Yano on the first page of this thread.

As I said at the outset, if that piece of [email protected] is all that I have to worry about, then I don't have to worry about much! :)

Incidentally, I have never said that I have 4,000 hours command time. And unless you know what was agreed by myself and a former senior official of the South African CAA regarding my logged time, licences and exams (which you don't) then you're not qualified to comment.

As for the rest of your post - that's your usual BS, ZambAero (or should that be OzDude?)

3rd Jan 2002, 00:58
Interesting start to the New Year, and I thought that I felt grumpy this evening, I almost feel better now knowing that there are others out there getting really waxed up over..... what??
Well Guv you continue to keep your cool and by golly it works them all up a treat.

PC Plod
3rd Jan 2002, 04:43
If Neil Robertson is 36 how come he says in the thread at <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017060&p=3" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017060&p=3</a> "Let me put it this way: I started my career with Laker in '81. Nuff said!"

Does that mean he was 15 when he started working for Laker? Something is not right here.

The Guvnor
3rd Jan 2002, 12:45
Actually, I was just 16, and had left school with a clutch of O Levels - which I'd taken a year early - much against the wishes of my parents. I joined the marketing department, working under Robin Flood; and after Black Friday worked with Christopher Morris as a gofer for 6 months where I probably learnt more than I would have done in six years with an operating airline.

3rd Jan 2002, 13:54
Re "who is the Guv?" quesion. Who is any one on this or other bulletin board? It is the internet after all. You can either believe what you read or you can question it. Untill I know the person who posted it, I usually question it or put it in my "to be confirmed" pile.
Just because someone has something in their profile doesn't mean a thing.
I have a passport that says "British citizen". I have another that says "Australian citizen". Which is more correct?
Which one is more appropriate is my usual answer... I use them both as I see fit and as per the immigration laws of either country <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
So.... read into what you see but us Ozmates have a saying "Come in Spinner".

3rd Jan 2002, 20:45

As entertaining as this thread is, it's time to 'put up or shut up' as we say in the UK.

You have made some pretty strong accusations against The Guv, I think he's taken it reasonably well. Had it have been me you were fu**ing with, I'd have contacted some 'tasty' mates who enjoy hitting people for fun, let alone a 'hit' fee.

So come on sunshine, name names, places, companies and dates or slide back into the home for the bewildered that I'm beginning to think you've escaped from.

p.s. I'm not The Guv either!

3rd Jan 2002, 22:17
And unless you know what was agreed by myself and a former senior official of the South African CAA regarding my logged time, licences and exams (which you don't) then you're not qualified to comment.

Do you agree that you have obtained a Nigerian ALTP through fraudulent means?
Do you agree that you have never obtained a Burundian ALTP, and were lying when you claimed to have one?
Do you agree that you manufactured for yourself a fake Kiribati ALTP?

As for your South African PPL, what you've just stated above is also interesting. The South African DCA had very strict, and simple, rules for validation/issuance of licences, all legal and in black and white. Are you now insinuating that you were involved in a "licence scam" in South Africa with a senior official of Civil Aviation?

Oh, and Guvnor, we're still awaiting any information about when, where, with whom, you conducted your B707 and DC8 type rating training (not to mention what licence it was that you actually trained on).
Also you've just claimed that you acquired 700 hours on CL44 aircraft. Also interesting as I have been in touch with several pilots and mechanics who worked on the very aircraft you claim to have flown, at the time that claim to have flown it. Care to explain how come you had ZERO hours on the aircraft then, or tell us where you were going and what you were carrying?

:) :) :)

3rd Jan 2002, 22:52
Happy new year guv.....hat's off to ya

PC Plod
3rd Jan 2002, 22:55
Just a minute, according to your own admission Mr Robertson you left school at 16 in 1981 and worked for Laker. Why have you put the following details in your profile at the Friends Reunited Website? According to your own admission you finished school, quite a lot of them I may add, in 1983 and went to college for a year in 1984.

1972: Noblehill School, 243 Annan Road, Dumfries
1973: Newtown Primary School, Sprouston Road, Newtown St Boswells
1975: Trinity Primary School, Trinity Street, Hawick
1978: Lathallan Preparatory School, Brotherton Castle, Johnshaven
1980: St Crispin's School, London Road, Wokingham
1983: Budehaven Community School, Valley Road, Bude
1983: Whitstone Head School, Whitstone, Holsworthy
1984: Chichester College of Arts, Science and Technology, Westgate Fields, Chichester

You then post this information in your profile for that website:

Neil Robertson:
After Uni, I moved to Africa (Nigeria, South Africa and Burundi) where I ran a couple of cargo and passenger airlines for several years.

Now back in the UK and based at Prestwick, in Scotland, where I'm starting a new airline.
Divorced, one son (Luke) born in 1996 who lives with his mother in South Africa.


So if you claim to have left school with only O levels and have worked with various airlines since, when did you study and get your degree in Airline Management from City University? Also, when and where did you study and get your degree in Child Psychology specialising in child abuse?

By your own statement you left school, went to university and then moved to Africa where you ran a couple of airlines but you also claim to have left school at 16 with only a clutch (how many in one of those?) of O Levels and we all know that you need more than O Levels to get into any university. Also you have stated that you ran or worked for an airline operating out of Ostende in the mid 1980s. So when and where did you study for your qualifications that enabled you to apply for a University course?

You have also claimed to have trained and qualified as an airline transport licensed pilot and gained nearly 5000 hours flying with many of those on the Boeing 707. Would you care to let us know where you did your course and how long did it take you to accumulate those hours?

I am sorry but as someone involved in investigative affairs I find some of the claims made by Mr Robertson to be rather out of synch with many of his statements. I must add that I have met Mr Robertson in the past and he is a charming man but one who I found rather too keen to tell stories that were obviously unverifiable. In this matter I am just trying to clarify a few things as there seem to be many people out to undermine Mr Robertson and in my business we always investigate smoke because in my experience there never is any without fire.

3rd Jan 2002, 23:04
Ozdude's off playing with kangaroos or something. Sweetheart of a fella actualy when he's not expressing an opinion about something, or as his profile puts it knocking people off their pedestals. Unfortunately all he puts out is his opinion, which is a tad arrogant rude and generaly abusive.

The Guvnor
3rd Jan 2002, 23:13
Hmmmm, couple of things there PC Plod (a) I haven't registered myself with Friends Reunited
and (b) my MSc wasn't from City University!

Can I suggest that as you 'discovered' this information, it in fact was placed there by yourself? If not, I'd be interested to find out who!

You say that you've met me - in that case it shouldn't be a problem to disclose your ID - either on here or to me directly.

I also note that you registered your ID today and have so far accumulated three posts - all of which are directed at myself.

Could it be that you are, in fact, a rather less hysterical OzDude? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

PC Plod
3rd Jan 2002, 23:46
I may have registered today but unlike you care not be in the public eye. Suffice it say I did meet you at a pprune party and at the time you were talking about about your projects and your life in Africa and most charmingly too.

If you insist on revealing your identity and making claims about your past that are conflicting then why should I not ask you these questions. I have no grudge against you and if you do not want to answer these questions then thats fine with me but at least I am asking you questions that have nothing to do with your commercial business.

Whilst I do not agree with Ozdudes methods I did find his allegations intrigueing and I have just done a little bit of research into your background and tried to reconcile it with statements you have made. There do seem to be some inconsistencies and I have merely raised a question about those inconsistencies and you appear to be extremely defensive.

I will draw my own conclusions and I leave others to draw theirs but if you cannot answer simple questions about your past, questions raised because of dates and places you have mentioned yourself then I am afraid that will put some doubt on your credibility when it comes to qualifying anything you say, especially when it comes to others who may want to do business with you in the future.

The Guvnor
4th Jan 2002, 00:19
PC Plod - nice deflection there! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

My point was - as I am sure you must have realised - that the profile you submitted is erroneous. Indeed, it doesn't make too much sense because there's a clear reference to university in there!

Now, for some reason out of the blue I'm coming under concentrated attack from OzDude - conveniently supported by ZambAero (who it has already been established was formerly Freeboot, Freenum, Napoleon etc etc) and who has lain dormant for some time after having made similar claims over an extended period that he has consistently been unable to corroborate despite being challenged to do so on numerous occasions.

OzDude in turn takes heavy incoming fire from myself and others and apparently retires to lick his wounds. Now I have this from yourself - registered today and with four posts to your name - all directed at myself.

You have stated that you met me at a PPRuNe bash and by extrapolation must have been a PPRuNer long before today. If your intentions are as benign as you claim, then I would be happy to respond to your questions (including giving you my correct educational history, should you so wish) on application by email with your verifiable identity.

After all, I'm being asked to provide personal data and I do not think it unreasonable that you do the same.

Should you not be willing to do this, then I too shall draw my own conclusions.

In the words of Ian Fleming: once is happenstance; twice is coincidence; three times is enemy action.

Hold at Saffa
4th Jan 2002, 00:39
Ah Guv.....
Reminds me of the WWII signal from a wounded Royal Navy frigate.
"Taking on water, amunition exhausted, morale depleted, situation hopeless....shall attack at once!"
Where would we be without the British?

Legends need not parry with the riff-raff, surely!

PC Plod
4th Jan 2002, 02:11
As you wish Guvnor. You claim you have nothing to hide yet you insist on keeping secret your qualifications. You claim that other people are inventing false histories and posting them on the internet. Why would anyone want to go to such lengths? What have you done to cause so many people to make such serious allegations?

As long as you put yourself in the public eye you will continue to attract people who will question the inconsistencies in your statements, especially about your past. You have stated that you do not wish to supply the basic information to back up your statements. The only conclusion I can draw from that is that you have something to hide. Fair enough, I too wish to hide my identity but I do not make statements that involve my past, experience and qualifications so there is no need to reveal them.

You have a large audience on this web site and some of them are interested in your claimed qualifications and background. Others appear to be claiming that you have something to hide. You deny there is anything to hide yet you do not provide your audience with the information to back up your own claims.

Once again, the inference is that you do have something to hide. As you say, others have made claims that they have been unable to corroborate but you too have evaded answering basic questions which were raised because of inconsistencies in your own statements.

Make up your mind. You either have the qualifications and experience you claim or you do not. So far the discrepancies lead me and possibly many others to conclude that you have something to hide.

Tristar Freak
4th Jan 2002, 02:40
Well well, the Guvnor is getting a pasting and still people jump to his defence.

While I agree that an anonny-mouse website, allows freedom of speech, the Goober has waived this right as he has allowed his identity to be splashed around, his ego seems to demand it. He wants to sell his non existant companies to people who know better and then when others ask genuine questions he clams up. Why should we not be able to quiz the man? Noone forced him to post his business plans on this website, so, to paraphrase slightly: he who lives by the internet shal die by the internet.

He may be handy at Cut & Paste of newspaper articles but that hardly the work of a genius.

The Guvnor has been guilty of using (or abusing) the website to push his own business plans (ha ha ha!!) with no thought to paying for all the free advertising, he has continually pontificated on matters which are, frankly none of his business (the Flying Start Mk2 thread springs immediately to mind). I also remember recieving an unsollicited e-mail from Mr Robertson offering type ratings on the L-1011 for a mere $30,000, with CalWings or whatever they called themselves reserving the right to chop the lucky trainee pilot whenever they wished and for whatever reason. I seem to recall that CalWings kept any outstanding balance. Dont forget this was when Neil Robertson was still regarded as having some form of credibilty. Bit odd he was asking for so much money when he had no planes though, eh?
Please feel free to draw your own conclusions from this.

Before anyone gets on my case I am not any of the other Guv-bashers nor am I any of the Guvs alteregoed nemisses.

Also, Velvet, I am not Dash/Natterjack/Masterplan.

[ 03 January 2002: Message edited by: Tristar Freak ]</p>

El Grifo
4th Jan 2002, 03:10
Hey Guv, Take my advice amigo.
In your correspondence with PC PLOD, stick to the age old adage. "Never give your real address to a Policeman"

4th Jan 2002, 03:40
Oh no Tristar Freak I worked that out long ago - just goes to show one should always check information given one before jumping to conclusions <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Surely, you of all people know that......

I've mentioned before 'things are not always what they seem'.

Posts are not necessarily a reflection of the person who posts. They can be someone acting as Devil's Advocate, and I have met several posters who are nothing like their Prune personae. It is similar to thinking you 'know' a celebrity merely because you have seen them on the TV.

Superficial psycho-analysis of people, based on what is posted here rests on a false premise and so can never be trusted. One can only judge what is written not the writer.

Gunner B12
4th Jan 2002, 10:20
PC Plod

You say [quote]I too wish to hide my identity but I do not make statements that involve my past, experience and qualifications so there is no need to reveal them. <hr></blockquote>

Yet earlier you tried to stress your qualifications to add weight to your statements

[quote] I am sorry but as someone involved in investigative affairs I find some of the claims made by Mr Robertson to be rather out of synch with many of his statements. <hr></blockquote>

Also the Gov answers your question regarding the information you claim to have found

[quote] Hmmmm, couple of things there PC Plod (a) I haven't registered myself with Friends Reunited
and (b) my MSc wasn't from City University

Yet you ignore that and carry on claiming he is inconsistent based on that denounced? Evidence

[quote] If you insist on revealing your identity and making claims about your past that are conflicting then why should I not ask you these questions. <hr></blockquote>

Lets face it this is mainly an anonymous forum, for all I know I could be corresponding with murderers and paedophiles. I don’t know and as I have stated before I don’t care. Who voted OZ Dude and the others the moral defenders of PPrune. If Danny had a problem with the Gov he would be gone like Lame. Until that happens I for one will continue to appreciate the contribution made by all posters who stay on topic and will continue to despise those who just knock the individual poster.

Fortunately this thread is fast approaching a close.

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Ed Winchester
4th Jan 2002, 10:56
What great entertainment!

PC Plod - who are you trying to kid? Unless you have a doppelganger in OzDude there surely cannot be two people who post the same obsessive-compulsive stalker-like ramblings. You are 'both' obviously from the 'why use one sentence when several paragraphs will do' school.

Guv - 3800+ posts since Jul 99 - surely there must be more to life?!!!

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

4th Jan 2002, 11:44
PC Plod

You don't show much evidence of good detective work for someone of your suggested calling.

Your first post re Guv's claim to work with Laker in 1981 - surely you should have considered he might have left school at 16. Also, you fell into the City University trap. Could it (the place where Guv got his M Sc) be from Cranfield? Mr Robertson said the place began with a C in an earlier posting.

As this thread is approaching the 100 postings, a plea to the moderators. Let this thread run. It makes for compelling reading.

I suppose I need make the now mandatory statement. I am not the Guvnor either.

4th Jan 2002, 12:00
Ozdude appears to now be conspicuous by his absence. One is not sure whether to sigh in relief or wish the roo-wrestler back so we can all have a go at knocking him off his own pedestal.

Thinks, he might just have toppled from that mighty perch, naah, probably still upstairs with his microsoft flightsim, I have heard the latest version really is quite good. Or, heaven forbid, he's nipped into a handy phone box and is back on the forum in another disguise as the meek an umble ......????

The Guvnor
4th Jan 2002, 12:12
PC Plod - whilst I don't hide my identity, I also don't hand out my personal details willy-nilly. I made you a clear offer:

[quote]You have stated that you met me at a PPRuNe bash and by extrapolation must have been a PPRuNer long before today. If your intentions are as benign as you claim, then I would be happy to respond to your questions (including giving you my correct educational history, should you so wish) on application by email with your verifiable identity.

After all, I'm being asked to provide personal data and I do not think it unreasonable that you do the same.

Should you not be willing to do this, then I too shall draw my own conclusions. <hr></blockquote>

You have elected not to do so and therefore I (and others) will draw the appropriate conclusions.

Tristar Freak - strange you should say that [quote]he has continually pontificated on matters which are, frankly none of his business (the Flying Start Mk2 thread springs immediately to mind).<hr></blockquote>

You're obviously talking about Malgus, which not just I but also IFR, WWW and numerous others have serious doubts about. All that I did was the basic mathematics behind it, as well as showing that their claims about the 'backing' of Scottish Enterprise were in fact false. Were you looking to do a similar scam in Germany, perhaps? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I am interested that you claim to have received an email from me about training. I certainly do not recall sending this to you and the one that did go out was not as you describe. Nor, in any way, did it indicate that any money would be paid prior to the introduction of aircraft - rather, the opposite as it made it clear that the insurers would require an operational history of at least a couple of years before such a programme could be initiated. Therefore, you're (a) lying about the contents or (b) you never received a copy of it - which means that you're lying.

Incidentally, I note that you have conveniently neglected to mention that you are one of the named contributors to Yano's article (the oft-posted url). <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

slj - actually, I didn't say that the place I got my MSc in Air Transport Management began with a C - that was Sid's Stars.

Perhaps now is not the best time to mention that one of my New Year's Resolutions was to significantly reduce my PPRuNing! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]</p>

4th Jan 2002, 12:32
As an avid reader of anything written I have over the years developed an ability to discern different styles of writing. In Bahrain for instance there are a number of people who regularly write mischievous pieces in the local rag using anonymous identities. I can generally tell who they are by their style of writing.
IMHO I have spotted very similar writing in both Ozdude’s and PC_Plod’s posts.
After reading all through this very entertaining thread I would like to forward a couple of theories.
Ozdude obviously has some major personal vendetta against The Guv. They may well have some common history which I don’t think The Guv has twigged yet.
On a previous posting on this thread it was suggested that Ozdude was a young woman.
[quote] My wife and I have had the most wonderful afternoon reading through all your contributions and she, a forensic Psychiatrist for over 18 years specialising in adolescent cases, has suggested that you are in fact, a young woman deeply in need of attention. <hr></blockquote>
Now we know that The Guv has had a bit of a problem in the past with a very vengeful ex. Could they be one and the same?

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

PC Plod
4th Jan 2002, 18:22
Unfortunately for Mr. Robertson I am investigating on behalf of someone who was interested in one of his projects. As my client has not been able to get any verifiable background information directly from Mr. Robertson I have set out to show my client that there is a hidden history and the replies recived so far only add to the theory that he has something to hide.

If Mr. Robertson is successful in raising the necessary investment for any of his projects then I will be more than happy to apologise for any offence I may have cause him although that is not my intention. In the meantime I will remain a sceptic and treat his objection to clarify the discrepancies in his statements as a need to hide something.

Whether or not Mr. Robertson received his claimed MSc from City or Cranfield Universities is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he claims to have one but is not prepared to tell anyone where he received it. I have written to both universities requesting verification and I will post the result when I receive them. It is noted that Mr. Robertson does not claim to have received his degree from either of those universities but that someone else who claims to know him hinted that it began with a C. It is also claimed by some that this other person is another alias for The Guvnor.

Because of the confidential nature of my business I am not in a position to reveal my identity but I can assure you that my client has asked Mr. Robertson for clarification and has not received a satisfactory reply. Anyone else who presumes I am somebody else who also visits this forum does not matter to me. It does not remove the fact that Mr. Robertson refuses to provide any evidence to back up statements he has made about his past which leads me and others to conclude that there is a credibility problem.

4th Jan 2002, 19:50
Sounds like a complete load of coblers PC Plod.
Weak story far too much protestation/justification.
Sounds like... no... Ozdude couldn't have kept up the reasonable approach that long, the guy is basicaly animal by nature digs straight in with his true colours showing, boorish in the extreme.

4th Jan 2002, 19:58
PC Plod or ex PC Plod if you are a private detective

Not a very professional approach, old boy.

If you are retained by a client you would probably do better to simply trawl (search) through the archives and published material on Mr Robertson.

Why did you not disclose your alleged professional (?) interest in your first post?

If you are what you claim then you must know that City, Cranfield or any University would be cautious of an approach like yours because of data protection regulations. You will (or should) need the permission of Mr Robertson for the information to be disclosed to you.

You know where he is but you will have to disclose who you are for him to grant the permission you need.

Tristar Freak
4th Jan 2002, 20:07
You are such a fool. I did indeed recieve one of your e-mails detailing your training scheme, so I would be willing to accept an apology for calling me a liar. Or maybe I should call my lawyers as well.

I donot live, work or have dealings with Germany whatsoever, so your veiled accusations of wrong doing make me somewhat angry. You have met me at a PPRuNe bash and I can assure you if you ever have the gaul to show your face at another bash I will introduce myself to you once again. You can count on that.

[quote]Incidentally, I note that you have conveniently neglected to mention that you are one of the named contributors to Yano's article (the oft-posted url).<hr></blockquote>

You are stupid Guvnor, I am obviously not who you think I am. I have never had any contact with the fellow that wrote the article, maybe you would like to try and discredit me one more time? I hope you get all that is coming to you.

4th Jan 2002, 20:08
PC Plod, are you telling us that you are really conducting a confidential private investigation on behalf of a client, on a public forum?

Call me stupid if you like…but that revelation, (if correct) is hardly likely to scare the person into answering all your questions, especially on a forum such as PPRuNe.

I know a lot of us here are perhaps gullible…but either you are incredibly clever or completely stupid, of course there might be a third option, it’s a complete load of rubbish.

I know what I believe. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: max_cont ]</p>

PC Plod
4th Jan 2002, 21:03
Without trying to get Neil Robertsons fan club too enraged I will again ask the question, if as you claim have you have an MSc in Airline Management why can you not disclose where and when you received it? Obvioiusly there are some people on here who have a problem with someone asking another person who chooses to be in the public eye a simple question which would back up statements already made.

Either Neil Robertson has an MSc in Airline Transport Management and various other qualifications that would have been needed to take that degree in the first place or else he does not. All the other people who are challenging me seem quite prepared to take Mr. Robertsons qualifications as claimed. If they are so sure then one would assume that they have seen the evidence and are defending him out of loyalty.

If any of you have seen the evidence then please put it here so we can all see for ourselves. A simple request but one that stirs up a lot of anger.

4th Jan 2002, 23:20
Come Neil.
Just tell us where you did your initial PPL training. Where did you do your hours to get your CPL? How did you accumulate your hours to get your ALTP? Where did you do your B707 type rating? Where did you do your DC8 type rating? Why did you have to complete a full course of training for a South African PPL? Which licence would you have used to get your Burundian validation?
And how come a 4-engine turboprop captain claims you are totally incompetant as a commercial pilot?
<img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

The Guvnor
4th Jan 2002, 23:39
Good grief! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I can confirm that contrary to the claims of PC Plod I have not been asked by any potential investor for further details of anything about myself or my colleagues. Indeed, given the current market situation, I am not seeking financing for any project at present.

The institutions that were approached received not just a copy of the business plan but also detailed CVs and references for all of the principals involved with the project. No other person has any need to know nor entitlement to receive such information.

I have made it clear on two occasions now that I am happy to satisfy your interest should you provide your personal details (and of course now your client's details). Yet you remain remarkably reticent about wishing to do this. I am sure those reading this will draw their own conclusions.

You will note that - unlike you - I do not demand that you place your entire life history on here. Why then should I?

Sorry, PC Plod but your story doesn't ring true at all.

TriStar Freak - unless you have assumed someone else's ID you are indeed one of those persons named on as a contributor to the article. If you've met me at a PPRuNe bash then you, too, should have no problem dropping me an email with your correct ID. Should you not be the person I have referred to, I would have no problem making a public apology to you. You can also email me the email I allegedly sent you.

Incidentally, you might also like to explain why you so vehemently opposed my posts about Malgus? Do you, perhaps, have some ulterior motive in ensuring that no one questions their viability?

Actually, you're now the third person that claims to have either met me at a PPRuNe bash and/or emailed me their contact details ... could this be a coincidence? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

The reality is this. I - and my colleagues - have spent much of the last two years trying to set up an airline which would initially employ over 200 people and ultimately many times that. I have spent a very significant amount of money of doing this.

I suspect that had things worked out, many of those who are currently on the offensive would have been first in line to submit their CVs.

Double standards, or what? <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]</p>

Hold at Saffa
5th Jan 2002, 00:25
PC Plod
[quote]All the other people who are challenging me seem quite prepared to take Mr. Robertsons qualifications as claimed. <hr></blockquote>
No, actually. I think you'll find most of us don't give a rat's whether Neil has claimed to be the Queen Mother, Tinkerbell or a Horse Stud's Shetland Pony. The fact is, he's interesting, informative, and often times, very VERY amusing.
'Fraid I can't say the same about you, me old muggle.

PPRuNe Dispatcher
5th Jan 2002, 00:43
Guvnor -

I have met you on three occasions and have no opinion one way or the other about you.

If I provide personal details in this open forum, are you willing to do the same so that we can finally lay this to rest?

"Mik" Butler,
aka James Michael Butler
aka PPRuNe Dispatcher

5th Jan 2002, 01:00
Burry the hatchet.

5th Jan 2002, 01:05
And the Ref's decision is FINAL!!! :) :) <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

The Guvnor
5th Jan 2002, 01:06
Mik - you're missing the point. This is an issue about people attacking from behind anonymity - without accountability.

As I have said on numerous occasions, as soon as I get from ZambAero, OzDude, PC Plod etc what they want from me (ie a a full and complete disclosure of all personal details, apparently including inside leg measurements and latest STD test results) then I have no problem at all in doing this.

I am sure that you will agree with me (and many others who have said as much on this thread) that frankly unless I'm applying for a job with you or asking you to invest significant sums in a project, then it does not matter whether or not what I have said is true or indeed whether or not I am myself or someone completely different. I am sure you - and anyone else - can read my posts and judge on your personal experience whether what I have said in them is correct or not. My biography is not needed to do this.

See where I'm coming from?

5th Jan 2002, 01:13
Good grief !

Burry the f*****g hatchet !

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: E. MORSE ]</p>

5th Jan 2002, 01:28
Umm, ... sorry Guvnor but you seem to be missing the point.

This is an anonymous forum, and you have entered of your own free will and spun all sorts of tales about yourself. You have enthralled us with your visions of how the major carriers should operate, and thrilled us with offers of upcoming employment on L410's, L610's, Cl44's, L1011's.
You have used this, and other forums, for what can only be described as free advertising. WE are looking for a little accountability from YOU. You've made wonderful claims about yourself and what you are going to do to the global aviation industry. Comparing what you've said you're doing to what has actually happened ... well not much in that pile is there? And then a cursory glance at your reputed resume and things just don't seem to gell.
So if you are the kind of chap that you claim to be, please provide us with some proof of the fact. Guvnor, we want to believe in you.

See where we're coming from?

The Guvnor
5th Jan 2002, 01:36
ZambAero - hardly free advertising unless I have something to sell, surely? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Since you're being rather vocal at present, we can start with yourself. Verifiable identity, educational and employment history, etc etc please.

Surely you have nothing to hide? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

5th Jan 2002, 01:40
Okay guys.

You're both under arrest now.

5th Jan 2002, 01:50
I have not had as much fun in ages, it's just like back in the school yard "you show me yours & I will show you mine".

I don't care if the Gov is for real or living on fantasy island, but one thing is quite apparent oz-dude you have one BIG axe to grind.
So a new angle tell us how the Guv pissed you off big time, I think that must be more interesting than this post.
You wern't the little bloke in the white suite pointing to the sky saying "Boss the plane, the plane!!!" where you.. :)
P.S. I am real and not an alter ego <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

5th Jan 2002, 04:49
I have just deleted a posting on this thread by Ozdude, that was over the top, even for Jetblast, and banned him.

Furthermore, as it has gone over 100 posts, I'm closing this thread. Those of you so inclined can start another.


[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: Hamrah ]</p>