RAAF can't get enough pilots (or keep them).

[Al E. Vator]

Seems under freedom of information documents released recently, the RAAF cannot find or retain pilots (what's new)!

However now even they are 'admitting' it.

The FOI documents are on this link................


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8881412%5E2702,00.html

[ruprecht]

With pay rates for RAAF pilots lagging - a junior pilot in the force gets about $56,000 a year rising to about $95,500 for a senior pilot - the report says the RAAF is almost powerless to stop the exodus, unable to match the pay and conditions offered by airlines.

Actually it's a little higher now with the last pay increase and, with Virgin and Jetstar on the scene, it seems like the salary gap between the military and the airlines is getting smaller.

ruprecht

[Double Asymmetric]

Not that it's stopping you from getting out..... :p

[ruprecht]

:D

I didn't say that the gap was that small.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Looks to me like a cut and paste from about 20 years ago! Why become a knuck when you can become a media magnate, venture capitalist or a futures trader? A future bograt flying around on 70K in the JSF....seems out of whack. Whats a train driver/baggage handler make again?

[No Further Requirements]

G'day all. Not just pilots - ATC, Engineers, Doctors and Dentists too. I'm sure there are more. Not always about the money though. The two biggies for me were locational stability and recognised qualifications. Just becuase the Army moves everyone around every two or three years doesn't mean the RAAF has to as well. What is the point in some jobs? My two cents.

NFR.

[Sheep Guts]

Maybe a slight payrise in going ti Virg or Jet Star but, they will definitely start working for a living / doing 90 hrs a month as opposed to 30 will definitely change the rythm.:E

Sheep

[Captain Sand Dune]

No real surprises in that article. The RAAF is currently awash with pilots, a direct result of a downturn in the airline industry.
But – shock/horror – some pilots actually leave the RAAF!
:eek:
Just as the newly CPL’d sprog working at Dodgy Bros. Aviation Services in Upper Woop Woop West eventually moves on to other things, so do some RAAF pilots.
When they arrive at the RAAFs’ front door all a young potential pilot can think about is flying all day and f******g all night. A few years down track he has a few flying tours under his belt, maybe a staff (non-flying) job and now a family – ie priorities change. This has always been the case, and will not change. Don’t make pariahs out of those who seek a change of life.
As far as money goes I honestly think I get paid fairly well for what I do. I consider it unrealistic to expect the RAAF to pay the same money to its’ pilots that QF pay to their captains (although I’d happily take it!!).:E

The internal air force report says the RAAF's pilot system is deeply flawed, with ineffective management and "severe structural problems" creating "a fundamental sense of dissatisfaction" among pilots.

I assume that “the RAAFs’ pilot system” refers to man management. If this is the case I mostly agree with the authors’ sentiments. Ask any ex-RAAF pilot why he got out and I’ll bet that one of the reasons is that he was sick of moving every two years. While recognising the fact people must be promoted and moved, I consider the RAAF can definitely do it better. At the end of a “standard” two year tour a pilot has just reached the point where he is actually being useful to the squadron. He knows the aircraft and the job intimately, and is passing good gen on to the squadron bogeys. What does the RAAF do – post him to a completely new job where the cycle starts again. The net effect to a flying squadron is dilution of corporate experience, and more stress to the individual.
How hard would it be to lengthen flying tours?

"For over 15 years, the pool of experienced junior officer pilots has been progressively shrinking"

Experience. This one word encapsulates the problem. Overall reduced flying rates, more pilots and short flying tours all contribute to the problem. Lots of pilots does not necessarily equal lots of experience.


So what would I do if I were in charge?

1. Wind down the training rate down to one course/year. Difficult to do at the moment because of the cocked up contract with BAe, but that’s another story.
2. Lengthen flying tours to four years.
3. Keep those who want to be there. If a pilot wants to stay a FLTLT pilot a particular squadron for the rest of his life, let him.
4. An inescapable fact of life is that the RAAF must have pilots in some ground jobs because of their experience. Another fact is that many pilots actually don’t mind a ground job after 15 or so years of flying. Why not advertise them within the RAAF? Having a pilot in a staff job because he’s actually interested in being there is so much more beneficial to both parties.
5. Don’t force promotion. Many pilots would rather stay junior officers. There are also quite a few who seek promotion. Again, why not advertise that senior officers’ job that will become vacant next year rather that shove in someone who doesn’t really want to be there?


I concede these suggestions will not satisfy everyones expectations of the RAAF man management system. Yes, there probably will be need to post someone into that s****y ground job that no-one wants yet someone has to do. There will also be a need to promote someone when he doesn’t really want it. However if the RAAF stops banging on about “the needs of the Service” and starts allowing its pilots to have more say in running their own life, they could make life a lot easier and happier for both.

Time for a lie down and a Bex……….

[Double Asymmetric]

You've hit the nail on the head. By the time ROSO is up, RAAF pilots are earning a respectable wage (although it doesn't compare with many jobs outside the sheltered workshop). What drives people out is the constant moving and changing jobs. The fact that you arrive in a new location/squadron, and within the first six months having to start thinking about what/where you want to go next, and then slowly starting up a campaign to get that posting gets old very quick.
If your partner has her own career than that complicates the matter greatly. Also the implied threat of undesirable career consequences should you keep refusing the third stripe wears thin. There are lots of promises and platitudes out there that the system recognises that some people just want to fly/remain FLTLT etc etc and many want geographic stability, but there has been no tangible change in the way business is done.
The Air Force has been lucky in that the worldwide airline recession has bought them some time, but perhaps this has been wasted. I would suggest that seperation rates from the service over the last few years have not reflected the common dissatisfaction/skepticism within. As the world airline market continues the upward journey on the sine curve, it will be interesting to see what happens with respect to pilot seperation rates. Then the RAAF will see an experience crisis.

[tubby one]

Wow Sheep guts - I am sure there are more than a few drivers of Hercs and Orions who would find 90 hours per month a downturn. Remember the RAAF is not just p***ks on primuses there are more flying heavy than fast twins!!!!

Would also note that the drain on the RAAF whilst cyclic is constant - like the sh*t it is only the rate or the depth which varies. In the early 80's the then chief of personnel actually requested the white rat to slow down their rate of RAAF pilot intake.

For Capt Sandy - winding back training has never been a sound solution at any time, you are better of with the short term problem of a surplus than the long term hassles of winding the process back up - plus the lag and lead time is just to difficult to comfortably handle.

Ah well - back to the red!!!

[Captain Sand Dune]

90 hours/month of autopilot time vs real flying………no contest!:cool:

T1…agree re the lead/lag thing – it’s just too hard to predict and yes, it’s more realistic to have a constant rate output. However I still reckon the rate we’re presently outputting graduates is too high, especially when you consider the surplus of pilots in the system at the moment. That’s why I say we could still wind it back a little more.
In addition I’m not sure we’ll see those huge recruiting drives of the 80’s for a while – be nice if I’m wrong though!
:D

Back to the Emu………….:ok:

[Mr. Hat]

I have a question.

Does VB/JetStar/Regionals and so on employ many defence force pilots?

I realise QF and CX take quite a few but have not heard of defence blokes flying in regionals or in VB. Are there many? Do defence guys consider regionals.. or is the pay cut too large?

[ruprecht]

Mr. Hat.

VB has quite a few ex-defence pilots in it's ranks but I know of a lot more in CX and QF. This has probably more to do with the size of VB compared to CX and QF than anything else.

I know of a couple in the regionals (Rex etc..) but not too many.

ruprecht.

[CSL]

From the other side of the fence,

I left the RAAF in 1998 (after 12 years service) to continue flying in the desert for BAe - 6 years later I am read to go back and willing to accept any position. Given that I now have, 4500+ military time, 8 years instructional experience, caribou time, DPO experience and willing to go operational I thought that i might be able to continue flying for a bit longer but no - the answer at Xmas was "not interested maybe call again after 2 years".

Now that is how to keep experience levels and manage pilot numbers!

later dudes.:cool:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Mr Hat,

Pre 9/11 (or is that 11/9?), SARS, Iraq etc there were a reasonable amount of ex –ADF pilots in the regionals.
The net effect of 9/11, SARS etc was (as you undoubtedly know) to slow up recruiting across the board. In addition the ADF significantly increased aircrew pay about 5 years ago. Obviously these two factors join to keep ADF pilots in, or in CSLs’ case wanting to get back in.
There appears to be signs of an upturn in airline recruiting, so it remains to be seen if ADF pilots will go for the pay that the regionals are offering.

CSL – keep trying mate, things change. Do you like country music? :}

[donpizmeov]

You have to remember that the RAAF needs pilots to leave....this is how the bogies get to have a go at being boss. If everyone were to stay, the system gets block, and the 1st tourists do not get a command, nor a ride on that huge learning curve of sink or swim!
I think if you were to take a look back its always been this way. Its just that one day you wake up, and the bogies are looking to you for advice, and you realise all the guys you did that too have died, retired or left! It is always said that the flying is not as good as it was.....(happened when I turned up at 35Sqn 19yrs ago, and was still happening when I was finally put out to rest from Maritime 15yrs latter....still a Fltlt and with no ground job to boot!).
Enjoy your time driving those military machines while you can. If you want to make a career of it well good for you. But if you want your family to enjoy one place to live of your choosing, and to keep having those first night overspeed overnights, well you have to change uniform.
The choice is all yours, and either one has a whole bunch of merit.

Now Ruppie...have you got a job or what? About time if you have, hope it all goes well. Headbutt fish head for me.
Don

[ruprecht]

Don,

No job as yet, but as close as I've ever been. Fishy has moved to CB, something about wanting to be CAF....

Check your PM's.

ruprecht.