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bushjock
7th Aug 2001, 10:26
Was just wondering.........
I was reading the thread on the Irish saga! I was wondering what gets to you? I'm a white South African from English decent, but do not consider myself English. When I hear about African Americans, I can just Sh*t Myslef!!! You have no idea about being African!!! You are American!!!!!!!!!!!!
:mad:

Blacksheep
7th Aug 2001, 13:46
I'm a white South African of English descent too, only I DO consider myself English. My old school mate Keith Bowes was English, but he had tight curly hair and a hell of a suntan! Adopted as a baby, Keith was English in every respect (English as opposed to British that is); he would have been totally lost in Africa, or America for that matter. There are plenty of British people who are culturally somewhere else though...

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

SLF 999
7th Aug 2001, 16:31
Although I hold a British passport my nationality is Scottish. Im sure that most people in the UK will say that they are Scottish, English, Irish or Welsh and not British.

There you are set myself up to be shot down :D

You want it when?
7th Aug 2001, 17:04
Actually SLF I count myself as coming from Great Britain, and being British - and being proud about it. The union of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales has not been devolved (to my knowledge) despite the best attempts of the current lunatics in power.

There is not enough pride in this country, for what it stands for and for its achievements both historic and current. ;)

Evo7
7th Aug 2001, 18:03
TBH, I think of myself as British. My parents are both Scottish, but I was born in London, lived in Amsterdam until I was 6 and grew up in the south of England. Don't feel Scottish and don't feel particularly English either.

Velvet
7th Aug 2001, 18:07
Agree, British achievements are not taught these days, and comments like 'English are a mongrel race' do not help. Strange if an English person used that about any other nation / race we'd be castigated roundly by the very person who used it.

I've an English father and a Scottish mother which means I'm British and proud of it.

We have a culture and a history stretching back centuries; why do most politicians now think it only started in the latter half of the 20th Century. Incidentally, I welcome most of the immigration - it makes us stronger not weaker and we should celebrate our differences, not try to homogenise them.

Evo7
7th Aug 2001, 18:08
Hurrah to that :)

SLF 999
7th Aug 2001, 18:58
Seems Im in the minority here, but I still say Im not British Im Scottish, ok I agree there is a British history going back , but there is also a Scottish history before the union.

Im not going to start or get into a slagging match about Scotland V England etc, but I think that no matter what nationality you think that you are (In Europe), there will never be a European union, as people will not give up what they feel is important in terms of history, culture or nationality, it gives them an identity which is very dear to them (be it right or wrong, wars are fought for such things !) and I think that Europe will never provide that identity.

Personally Britian doesnt provide it for me.

How do the americans manage, is there the same feeling about states ?

JudyTTexas
7th Aug 2001, 19:05
I'm a pound puppy... :)

Springbokkie
7th Aug 2001, 19:20
I am a white South African, born of SA mom, and French dad, however I consider myself to be African. I really get a little grated up when you get these stupid forms for the pilot cadet scheme's which have 4 choices of "population" being African, White, Coloured or Indian.

What do I put? I put African in and they say I am wrong, I put White in and they say, sorry, we can't take you because we need to be in line with the affirmative action procedures...

You don't win in this country! grrrr :mad:

flapsforty
7th Aug 2001, 19:25
What fascinates me is WHAT nationality means for an individual, apart from the obvious things like having a "safe" passport.
Answers would be gratefully recieved.

And why does it mean so much to some people and so little to others?

My parents were East Block refugees, yet I grew up feeling 100% Dutch and proud of it. I cook the same hungarian dishes for my Norwegian kids that my Mum prepared for us in Holland, and I'm proud of that as well.

And nowadays when strangers ask me where I'm from, I usually respond "Europe".
Running the danger of being considered naive and stupid here, I really think that the EU is something to be proud of as well!

No it's not perfect by any means, but what a fantastic social advance for a continent war torn in the previous century.
What courage it requires for former enemies to embark on this course of erasing the bad things that borders bring, while preserving the good that European diversity has to offer.

Yes, European is how I would define myself, and thanks to my job, I feel that I'm also one of those very priveliged people, a World citizen.

Tartan Gannet
7th Aug 2001, 19:32
I may have posted this before but in my case I consider myself as follows:-

Ulster Irish by descent, Scots by Birth, English by adoption, (having lived here some 30 of my 48 years), British by Legal Nationality- that's what is on my Passport, and European by intention and desire, (I most certainly have absolutely NO wish ever to be a citizen of the "51st State of the USA"!)

Vortex what...ouch!
7th Aug 2001, 19:58
I consider myself English. Always have and I guess I always will. I donít see anything wrong with that, but some people seem to think it is a terrible thing. English nationalism is bad but patriotism is good in my view.

Times change and countries move on. Scotland is moving on. Wales and sloooowly Ireland (both of them for the purists) too. So why are the English not allowed to without it being a bad thing?

Anyway we are all going to be Europeans one day, less far right conservative politicians. :D

tony draper
7th Aug 2001, 20:46
Don't think the luvies will allow Englishmen and women to be proud ,not utill we have all apologised and groveled for the last four hundred years of our history.

birdbrain
7th Aug 2001, 20:51
and T.G.(G SPOT...) pray tell, where, in your opinion, is the 51st State ?? Alaska, Hawaii...whats wrong with them ??

Tartan Gannet
7th Aug 2001, 20:56
I thought there where only 50 states in the USA including Hawaii and Alaska or has Puerto Rico now been given this status?

My intention is quite clear, 51st, 52nd or whatever I do NOT wish to see the UK become any closer than we already are to the USA but instead become closer to our neighbours in Europe.

FlyingForFun
7th Aug 2001, 20:57
SLF, I think you and I think along very similar lines on this subject.

I consider myself English first, with British being a very close second. Way behind that comes Jewish, and even further behind that is European.

To answer Flaps' question, I think nationality is a feeling of belonging, of sharing, of being together. Doesn't matter whether it's supporting the same football team, learning the same things in geography lessons at school, or sharing - in a very broad sense - political views (e.g. I'd suggest that the English are traditionally much more right-wing than the Italians, but much less right-wing than the Israelis, but only in very general terms).

That's why I consider myself English before British. I am a rugby fan, and as well as my local club, I also support England and the Lions - but I am far more interested in England than I am in the Lions. I know my way around England, but would hard pushed to locate any Scottish city on a map except for Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen. And my politics fit in much more with those of London stock-brokers than they do with Welsh farmers. (Not that there aren't any English farmers, but you get the point - this is all very general.)

I will *never* consider myself European for exactly those same reasons.

FFF
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flapsforty
7th Aug 2001, 21:07
.

Thank you for answering my question FFF.

Anyone else care to?

f40

VnV2178B
7th Aug 2001, 21:24
I am of a mind with Vortex, draper and FFF.
I consider myself English first, British second and European a long way third.

I do have a problem with this, however, as the political climate seems to imply the Englishness is comensurate with racism. Why this is so is not a question our political leaders seem to want to answer.

The concept of 'institutional racism' appears to be only a conceit of the chattering classes in London. On the street it is simply a matter of who has power and who has not.

I do think there is a place for everyone's views in this debate and I also think that youe perceived nationality depends less on where you were born as where you feel comfortable living.

50+ years on I still don't know where I want to be, I just know where I am at the moment. sad isn't it ?

VnV...

birdbrain
7th Aug 2001, 21:54
Apologies T.G. I was always under the impression there were 52 states in the Union...don't ask me why. Understand and agree with you now.
Velvet I know where I want to be, but some how can never seem to manage it... :D

Send Clowns
7th Aug 2001, 22:20
English, British, (European), Earthling.

More British and Citizen of Earth than anything else. Living in a house with regular throughput of people from, among many other nations Japan, The Netherlands, Columbia, Russia, The Czech Republic, France, Ukraine and Norway it is very hard to be anything else.

tony draper
7th Aug 2001, 23:55
Difficult to define what Englishness is, British yes, the most inventive and talented race he world has ever seen, up to fifty years ago anyway.
We may hate to admit it but we do have far more in common with America than we ever will have with Europe culture wise.
If you don't believe that look at our news coverage, reams of news from across the Atlantic, zip coverage of Europe, mainly because most of us havent the slightest interest in the place.
The people on this forum may be the exception to that, bearing in mind the main profession represented here.
If you wish to see the way UK culture ,with a small C, is heading in the next ten years, look to the USA.
I think when that pompous stick insect De Gaul said non! the first time we should have instigated much closer ties with America and the commonwealth, rather than grovel for a place with people we don't have much in common with except endless wars.

Baggy
8th Aug 2001, 00:18
Lets see..

Grazed knuckles, forehead you can shelter under, droopy shoulders, and an overhanging jaw.... ;)

Can only be from the darkest depths of Cumbria - so must be British.

To be frank, does it really matter where I'm from??

Velvet
8th Aug 2001, 00:33
Flaps honey, when I'm in Scotland I feel Scottish, when I'm in England I feel English - I'm not sure what being British feels like. Living abroad for so long may bave loosened the ties to my homeland, but I'm still very proud to part of the British Nation (race).

For me having a dual nationality, I feel a connection with the past of two great countries stretching back into the dim mists of time. I can remember vaguely my Great Grandmother who was born in the 19th Century - isn't that a kind of immortality.

SLF, I meant the English history actually.


VnV, I've felt comfortable living in Canada, Middle East (several countries), Switzerland and England and Scotland. Like you I'm not yet sure where I want to be, just where I am at the moment, but I don't think it's sad, it just means I'm not decided where I want to end up.

birdbrain ;)

LatviaCalling
8th Aug 2001, 02:04
Well, look at me. I'm the typical WW 2 baby swaddled in evacuation from Latvia when the Russian mobs came in. Went to school in Sweden until my parents were allowed in to the U.S. Currently I carry a U.S. and Latvian passport. Favorite: American (always).

NoSurrender
8th Aug 2001, 02:19
I`m a brit, 50% Welsh 50% English, will never be anything else. Europe is a continent not a nationality the only other race in the European continent worth a toss are the Dutch. How can any self respecting Brit even think of joining Europe when its full of frogs, daygos and guidos. :p

tony draper
8th Aug 2001, 02:30
Perhaps we will finish up as three superblocks as in Orwells work, we are halfway there already, Newspeak, political correctness, doublethink, anything any poxy politician says,big brother, the granny state,and wall to wall surveillance.
Thoughtcrime, well they can't read our minds....yet.

Gash Handlin
8th Aug 2001, 03:02
I knew you were gonna say that Draper, and i work for THEM :D

Blacksheep
8th Aug 2001, 05:16
Flaps Forty and FlyingForFun have raised a confusing problem for me. If nationality is about shared common cultural experience and values then I am more Malay than English, British or European. You'd never guess by looking at me though... :)

The British Government classified me as African, despite my blonde hair (originally! Its grey now :p) and blue eyes, but have graciously consented to grant me a passport on the basis of being the legitimate descendant of a recent English/British ancestor. But I've spent twenty years among one of the world's nicest people and now, when I go "home" I feel a stranger in what is supposed to be my own land.

Its very disturbing and disorienting. I think I'll go and lie down for a bit...

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

Blacksheep
8th Aug 2001, 05:22
It worked!! A quick lie down and the answer just sprang into my head.

My true nationality is "Expatriate". I was born as an expatriate in South Africa and I've really been an expatriate ever since. :D

Thank goodness, I thought I was going mad for a while... :D

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Through difficulties to the cinema

Bob Hawke
8th Aug 2001, 05:34
Nationality: Defines your regional origins.

Race: Defines your ethnic origins.

Religion: Defines those origins that aren't compatiable with the other two, but wishing you were something.

Now, I really am confused! What am I?