View Full Version : 747-400 ratings available

4th Mar 2004, 06:02
on Parc group website there are 744 self sponsored type ratings with 1 year contract on offer somewhere in europe 1500 jet hrs or turboprop time requd.
who is this with?
how much is self sponsor cost?

4th Mar 2004, 06:21
Reputable prospective employers are not interested in self funded type ratings at all. Spend at your peril

4th Mar 2004, 07:04
DO NOT PAY FOR THE RATING. CAREFUL that is often a high risk. Be warned and alerted!.


5th Mar 2004, 02:38
Would be grateful if you could justify why employers aren't interested in self sponsored type ratings and why it is a perilous expenditure.


5th Mar 2004, 07:37
I recall still with terrible clarity the day i parted with a hat load of money to get a type rating from a thieving bunch in *******.....14 months later....no contract...no job and the promised line training......well....we can all make promises...keeping them is an entirely different matter....be warned !!!!!

5th Mar 2004, 12:36
Would not be surprised if it was Cargolux. They've looked a few months ago for 1 year contract for 747-400 F/O and obviously could not find anybody qualified, given their conditions and prospects (...no Command prospects).

Read the ad on the Parc website......i.e Parc promising to find futher assignments after the end of the lease period...THAT is luring candidates with wrong promises.

After only 1 year 747 time (represents appx. 450-500 hrs on type with very little stick time) one is considered rather inexperienced on type. combine that with the minimum requirements of 1500 hrs jet.

Highly doubtful one will get assignment on contract terms with that experience.

Knowing which persons are possibly behind this....my advice is......DON'T do it. (Unless you are in aviation just for fun but not for business)


5th Mar 2004, 14:37
Reputable prospective employers are not interested in self funded type ratings at all.

Guess I don't work for a reputable employer then.

Come to think of it several friends don't either, guess it serves us right for self funding our type ratings.

6th Mar 2004, 03:45
Please excuse my ignorance but what is the Parc website ??? Im interested in getting a 747 type rating and i dont even have any jet experience. At the end of the day drastic job markets demand drastic measures in order to get that elusive job. And i agree with the last post, why should an employer not prefer me with a type rating to another without ? More detailed answers would be appreciated.


6th Mar 2004, 04:50
Blueboy ,

Sorry to tell you this but a 747 is not suitable equipment for your first jet .

Simply the likely sector times would mean that you get little consolidation . It its best to fly a shorthaul jet first for at least two years .

No doubt some will say I've done it you'll be fine but you won't be really .

This may not be what you want to hear but it is sensible logical advice in answer to your Q from a 747 TRE

6th Mar 2004, 09:31
KFW you are absolutely right. The 747 is definitely not a type to start your jet career on.

Blueboy, your "drastic" job market is the result of the desperate measures of those who think like you. You may get the job -true- but you're also the first out, because the company has not invested a penny in you. Especially if you have only little experience, you may have a very rough career-start and what is supposed to become your "dream-job" may in fact remain a "dream".

And because there is so many these days, who are willing to "pay" their way into jobs, you will have a lot of competition. If you get into the wrong company, you will get taken advantage of.

In the early 90's, the german airline Germania used to offer 737 typeratings with a prospect for a job. After the usual cost for a 737 rating, they made you pay even some 80$/hour during your supervison (flying passengers).

A lot of the "prospects" were then axed in their subsequent SIM check, creating a slot for another "prospect". A nice way to subsidise or ruthless greed, call it what you want, but it is a fact.

Not a good way to start off, and it may affect your entire career before it even starts.

6th Mar 2004, 13:04
I've got a story even better than that. In fall of 2002 a company called Jetair International, Ltd. proposed to start charter operations out of the Czech Republic and Germany to Asia. Also proposed ops from the Philippines to North America. This was supposed to be in 767/747 A/C.

They managed to get 30+ people to wire 10,000 USD "training deposits" to accounts in Prague and Manila. Training was supposed to include type rating in the above aircraft. Some of those who signed on were low time individuals looking for their first jet. But many were high time individuals whose companies had recently ceased operations in the United States, and these people found themselves out of work at a bad time. Some were nearing retirement and were looking for a few more productive years of income.

Needless to say, excuses were made for delays in the start of operations. First it was the situation in Iraq, then SARS. Finally, it became apparent one of the principals had disappeared into the Philippines and was not returning to the States. The other principals in Prague claimed to know nothing of training deposits (although evidence indicates they did), closed the Prague account, and put the company into voluntary liquidation. They are currently living quite nicely in Prague.

The individual in the Philippines it turns out has a history of involvement in questionable schemes, despite his background as a Captain for a major U. S. carrier. He still claims to be starting an operation there, and has even claimed to be associated with a Canadian humanitarian organization that has never heard of him. His family in the United States has had local authorities open an investigation of his activities.

The money put into this scheme will most likely never be recovered. Although we are trying to bring criminal sanctions against the principal from the United States, it is difficult to get interest in what is essentially a wire fraud case. And the individual continues to hide in the Philippines. It is even harder to move against the principals in Prague, although we are trying. Both of these individuals were respected 747 Captains working as expats for an overseas carrier.

The moral of my story is be wary of these start up operations. These individuals were both well respected Captains in our profession, and that meant nothing. When funds are lost in these ventures, particularly overseas, there is very little legal recourse. They have told lie upon lie, and have continued to point fingers at each other. Stick to established carriers. I will freely admit to having made a bad decision in becoming involved with this operation, but in due course I received an excellent employment offer from an established carrier. Be patient, no matter how hard that may be. I was out of work for 18 months and was high time. I know how hard it is for those just starting out to heed that advice when employment opportunities are so scarce. Better than losing 10K.

Anyone that might have any other helpful information regarding Jetair International of Gibralter, please feel free to send me a message.:cool:

6th Mar 2004, 19:58
Dear 8driver

Like you and many others, I too handed over a cash training deposit to "the respected American” presently in the Philippines and having attempted to recover my funds have written this entire matter off as a "bad and foolish experience"!

Also working for a highly respected Asian carrier operating in to Europe on a regular basis, I have been able to personally visit the offices of the Gibraltar company in question and sufficient evidence was produced by the liquidators to show that our "American" friend was the majority shareholder and therefore responsible for any and all losses.

The Czech and Swiss projects were real and may still be resurrected subject to “real” financial backing and the Czech group are currently discussing their operations with a well known ACMI operator in Europe.

The “other” respected captain in question is personally known to an acquaintance of mine and I have been assured that this individual and his family have been the real losers in this unfortunate episode headed by our “American” friend.

Another acquaintance of mine who also deposited a cash training deposit with the “American” has personally visited this “other” captain in Prague and all documentation, including emails to and from the “American”, contracts, bank statements (originals – not copies) and other pertinent original documents relating to this venture were disclosed and it is clearly apparent that the “American” has pulled the wool over many eyes!

Having written this matter off, I do not wish to elaborate any further, and this posting is merely to shed some light on this matter and hopefully divert any blame away from the Prague connection as they are in my considered opinion, totally innocent of any injustice or malpractice.

Naturally you’re upset (and rightly so) of these two “individuals” pointing fingers at one another, but the authorities know best and all investigations against the Prague connection have been satisfactorily completed and no action is being taken by any governmental departments.

Due diligence on the company and it’s principals should have been performed before anyone of us parted with our training deposits and I conclude by advising anyone contemplating sending funds for any form of training not to do so, no matter how secure or established the company may be!

Once bitten, twice shy – that’s the lesson I have learned!

As you’ve rightly said 8driver, be weary of start-up operations! And a final word of advice 8driver, with all these worldwide litigations going on, naming a company could be detrimental and there could be repercussions against you personally. Perhaps the company name you’ve mentioned in your post should be removed?


6th Mar 2004, 21:21
Hi to all,

i can confirm 8drivers history about this company. I was also in contact with this company and they told me the same lies. I should also pay 10,000 USD, but I didn't.
Becaus of that they became very angry.
I had contact to many other people in Europ with the same problem.


6th Mar 2004, 22:22
Gave SS $10,000 in cash and I'm still waiting for a training date?

Won't hold my breath though!

Luckily for me that I'm in full-time employment and just looking for greener pastures as we all do from time to time.

I'm one of 8 that I know of personally that paid SS in cash before his timely departure from KE in December 2002!

SS (KE, CAL, Eva, Asiana and Delta guys know who I mean) is still claiming to reimburse everyone but once again, don't hold your breath! He's a real (censored)!

There's also a string of oriental women claiming he's the father of their children! How does he do it and where does he find the time? I guess with the money he's collected for his retirement, he can afford a harem!


Tibesti 3415
6th Mar 2004, 23:38
Likewise with Jetway Aeronautics,they where also selling type ratings with a promisse of line training and job after getting your rating on the A-320.
Jetway Aeronautics is an outfit managed by David Kaci and Jean-louis Ferrand Who is an A340 Captain with Air France,they have trained about 100 A-320 pilots with low experience in hope of theyr first job but again David Kaci is a lier and about 7 guys got a job on their own with no line training as promised of total about 100,one of them was Jean Louise Ferrands son who is now flying with Air Tahiti.
There is a lot of pissed of guys and girls around that has been ripped of by these guys.
Here is a list of Airlines that David Kaci has promissed a job with.
"Jetway Airlines" of course.
Fly Fti-
Aero Lloyd-
Khalifa Airlines-
Trans Air Sweden-
Egypt Air.
Air Luxor.
Air Tunisia.
Be warned These guys are some real Crooks and they will f__k up your career and litterarly steel ypor money.

7th Mar 2004, 07:35
OK so i get the message. Do your homework on the company before sending off an application and certainly money ( which i have no more of so that shouldnt be too hard!!!)

So whats the answer ? I trained at one of the best schools in the UK, 290 hours TT with frozen ATPL, where can i guy like me start ? Or even get an interview ??? It seems that most selection processes have closed for the summer and there doesnt seem to be many opportunities knocking around with the major airlines. Ive scouted the Pprune forums and there isnt much to go on. Theres even green card issues if i wanted to go and fly in the States (although i prefer Europe but beggars cant be choosers i know!)

Any advice would be much appreciated and oh, does anybody know what the Parc website is?


Capt Fathom
7th Mar 2004, 08:45
does anybody know what the Parc website is?
Why don't you type it into your browser and find out! :confused:

7th Mar 2004, 10:02
Jock 747:

I will refer to the American as Captain "A", and the English fellow in Prague as Captain "B".

I had thought to refute your post point by point, but that would be missing the point. Pun intended. Suffice it to say that I don't know who the principal shareholder was, that documentation has never been shown to me. Captain B did, however, control the Prague funds. He excercised control of the European operations, and Captain A had no control of those funds. Approximately 30% of the training deposits went to the Prague account. It is unclear what became of those funds, as Captain B has told at least two different tales in this regard. There was no investigation by Czech authorities. Captain A and Captain B both have long histories of involvement with startup schemes. Which brings me to my point.

If anyone out there hears of opportunities in the Philippines flying for a foundation associated with ERDO, stay away. ERDO has never heard of this operation. This is Captain A's pipedream, and it involves using money from a treasure hunt to start some type of flying operations. The "foundation" doesn't exist, nor do facilities at Clark AB. Captain A spends a considerable amount of time on Mindanao, a rather unfriendly place. Captain A is under investigation by local authorities in his hometown of Orem, Utah. The total amount of funds lost should reach the threshold for FBI involvement. Do not get involved with this.

Likewise, if you hear of proposed charter ops out of various points in the Czech Republic to Asia by Jetair International, this is Captain B's baby. Stay away. At least 6 people have lost funds in the Prague account. There are no airplanes. Captain B is living quite nicely in Prague. Don't get involved with this operation.

If you wish to send resumes to these type of operations, that's one thing. But do not send any money. These guys both refused training bonds in leiu of training deposits, which says a bunch.

Like you and many others, I too handed over a cash training deposit to "the respected American” presently in the Philippines and having attempted to recover my funds have written this entire matter off as a "bad and foolish experience"!

Couldn't agree more. But the intent here is to seek criminal sanctions and stop these guys from future schemes. As you can see, they are both unrepentant and continue to weave their tales of falsehoods.

And a final word of advice 8driver, with all these worldwide litigations going on, naming a company could be detrimental and there could be repercussions against you personally. Perhaps the company name you’ve mentioned in your post should be removed?

No worries 747 Jock. Everything I have asserted in these posts is fact, and can be proven. I have saved every E-mail and communication in regard to this matter. Captain B attempted intitially to put me off with such threats, but they are groundless. Enough people have contacted me that I have a pretty clear picture of his involvement.

Anyone who is considering association with either of these schemes, please PM me, I will be more than happy to share the information I have accumulated with you.


The answer is patience. The industry is currently in a difficult period, but hiring at U. S. regional airlines is picking up.

I spent 1 year instructing, 1 year flying night freight, 1 year doing corporate, 7 years in the regionals, and 5 years at U. S. Part 121 supplemental cargo operators in heavy jets. Then I was unemployed for 18 months. I was laid off/furloughed 3 times during my career, two airlines ceased operations. I am just now starting with a "real" airline, at the age of 39. Gone through several 401K's, etc. Been through several down cycles in the industry. And you will find guys on here that have been through twice as many airlines as I have in the same amount of time. A lot of it comes down to either being in the right place at the right time, or the opposite. I'm hoping I'm finally going to the right place at the right time.

So if you're committed to this career, it might be tough. It goes with the territory. Instruct if you can. Try to get in the right seat of a corporate airplane. Meet and greet people. Seek out the opportunities, limited as they are. The industry will recover, hiring will pick up. Try to position yourself to have the necessary experience to get hired when that happens.

If you can work in the U. S., you will probably find it easier to get work with a regional airline, but the pay will be horrendous, much worse than Europe. It's just part of the career path.

Bottom line, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.


8th Mar 2004, 03:40
Though 8Driver is correct about the need to be Very Carefull with who you forward money to, there are many options to consider. blueb0y79, have you tried CTC/McAlpine? It is not a 747 Rating, but it could lead to a job. It has worked for several of my mates.

On a side note; 8Driver I have the utmost respect for instructors, I was one myself, but I must ask what is the Yank obsession with "Instructing"? It seems that some Americans seem to "bad mouth" to the point of vulgarity on some American websites, anybody who does not become a flight instructor before a multi crew operation? Outside of the United States, there are many paths one can take to a cockpit, and a person will not be put down because of their choices. Some Americans seem to think that paying for your training, or buying flight time is a cardinal sin. It is quite entertaining reading some of the postings.

I am not implying you are like this, I am just interested.


8th Mar 2004, 03:52
It is indeed Cargolux...

Fright Level
9th Mar 2004, 02:00
topman999 said Reputable prospective employers are not interested in self funded type ratings at all. Spend at your peril

B737NG said DO NOT PAY FOR THE RATING. CAREFUL that is often a high risk. Be warned and alerted!

I paid for my own 767 rating and secured a tenfold rise in salary compared to my turboprop job when I joined a reputable employer a month later.

That employer gave me the time I needed on type to then move to my current job where I was paid to obtain a 747 rating.

I agree a 744 might not be the best choice of first jet but don't dismiss the value in paying for your own ratings.

9th Mar 2004, 15:05

It is Cargolux who needs pilots - cost of rating is 32.000 Euro

cold canuck
9th Mar 2004, 15:39
I paid for my 747 rating aswell. It was for a -200 and only cost 7500 euro mind you, not 32,000. It got my ass out of turboprops (after 5000hrs) and onto a serious jet. Now my career prospects and salary have increased substansially. I will recoup the 7500 euro after my third month online is over (difference in pay as to my previous turbo prop job), HOWEVER, I cannot condone paying 32,000euro. That is insane. The rating can be done for under 15,000USD. How much does a Cargolux FO make? Surley not 64,000 euro a year as a new hire. So for the first 6 months are you working for free? Given I don;t know the deal being offered, but if they aren't paying over 100,000 euro then the cost is extreme. If they are paying over 100,000 euro then maybe....

Dan Winterland
9th Mar 2004, 18:40
I was messed around by Cargolux through Parc about 2 years ago.

Cargolux needed more pilots, I applied direct and was interviewed along with several of my colleagues - all of us with 747-400 ratings. We all failed the initial aptitude tests. I was than offered work with Cargolux through Parc on what was a reasonable contract despite having failed their initial selection. I accepted the offer and then went through several months of being messed about with different start dates and reducing renumeration. Eventually, I told them to forget it.

Cargolux through Parc - wouldn't touch it, especially if you're paying for your own rating.

9th Mar 2004, 20:30
32000 is RIDICULOUS, with the pay they are offering you are likely to break even in 1 year !!!!

Mind you after this year your contract ends and you will be on the street.... broke!

9th Mar 2004, 21:49
Gave SS $10,000 in cash and I'm still waiting for a training date?

When I first started reading this thread that was the name that popped into my mind. I met him once in Taiwan in 1996 or 97. He was pushing some currency trading deal in Hong Kong at that time. Both my friend and I smelled a rat from the very beginning. Needless to say we weren't interested investing with him at that time. Sorry you guys got taken.


9th Mar 2004, 23:27
Unfortunate that this is Cargolux, from my very limited dealings with them, Cargolux seemed like a great company. Now, with schemes like this, they seem like the "typical" ACMI operator.

14th Mar 2004, 10:33
Captain America (SS as some of you know him) is at it again and is "supposedly" starting an operation with Canadian registered aircraft (from Spitfires to Concordes) in the Philippines!

Send your resume to SS or his partner in crime (SM - ex-Emery) to: [email protected]

I say again - send your resumes and no deposits!

Once bitten - twice shy!

Happy landings............:*

14th Mar 2004, 13:06
Captain America still claiming to be associated with ERDO. Strange they've never heard of him. Only operation they have in the Philippines is the Noah's Ark orphanage. I'll say this for him, when he fabricates a tale, he not only sticks to it but continues to embellish it. :yuk:

15th Mar 2004, 07:35
don't do it, with 280hrs total time you could be the red baron but are not walking staight onto a 747 to get paid.
These companies see the likes of you and pull your pants down !! we have all been there and it seems like for ever but keep firing c.v's and knocking on doors and you will be suprised how one week 'nothing happening' and the next you have a job, but you have to be realistic,you work to get paid not the other way around, you have spent enough getting where your at - just wait, everyone wants to fly a big shiney jet, but when things go wrong they go wrong very very fast, dont mean to be pessimistic just realistic.

15th Mar 2004, 08:34
anyway blueboy, if you look at the parc website, you'll see you need 1500 hours jet time or 3000 hours glass cockpit turboprop, so you've no decision to make.

15th Mar 2004, 08:58
Sorry to say, but you will NOT get 75hrs/month, when you fly for Cargolux. On average, you'll get 50hrs/month. PARC is not telling entirely the truth, whether intentionally, or lack of knowledge.

If it was a scheduled pax Airline, then 75 hours would be possible, but not in a freighter outfit. You will spend quite a bit time in Hotels, if you're unlucky one month, you will fly 25-30hrs, while being on the road for 3 weeks.

Frankly, I'm dissapointed, that Cargolux is choosing to go this path...very dissapointed...used to be a good Airline...what a shame.

Scarebus PIC
16th Mar 2004, 10:05
Just did a 744 type rating on my FAA ATP at NATCO and it cost less than $13,000. Boeing (Seattle) charge a little more.

Course was 3 weeks and this included accomodation as well.

Trouble is without the magic 500 hours experience, this is of little use to me right now!

I wonder if Cargolux accepts the FAA type rating and no time?

flite idol
17th Mar 2004, 00:54
I am amazed and dissapointed that a airline such as Cargolux would adopt this tactic and more amazed that there are enough plonkers with cash on the hip, desperate enough to go along with it. The world has gone truly mad, bloody bonkers!

17th Mar 2004, 01:21
Flite idol,

you speak my mind - agree with you entirely. Sad that Cargolux adopts this kind of "exploitation", even more sad, that there are some stupid (sorry, no offense, but I just can't find a more accurate term for this, but stupid) wannabes with so little self confidence who go for it...

17th Mar 2004, 08:26
Deals like this might or might not work out for the individual. If it means that you are able to get a steady job after the 12 months is over it was a good investment I guess. If not, you got a free type rating but had to work for free for a year. I can understand why someone would be tempted, especially when jobs are scarce.

The danger is that this sets the tone for the future hiring process. Why would a company pay for a type rating when they can sell them. Perhaps not so easy to get a job then without a type rating and not able/willing to pay for one. In my humble opinion it is the sign of times and it will take many years to rectify. The companies are using the industry downturn to make changes that drastically reduces the ability to enter the market as a newbi.

Too bad Cargolux pilots does not have /are not allowed to have a real union that can fight this issue. If it is allowed to continue it will drastically changes the conditions for new hires. Time to fight for the future colleagues!

Dan Winterland
17th Mar 2004, 08:44
An opprtunity from a caring employer, or a cynical way to increase revenue? We will only know when the first pilot's year contract is close to renewal. Will Cargolux renew or take on a new batch of hopefuls? I suspect the latter.

And those of you who have taken up this 'opportunity', ask yourself how useful low hours, a widebody rating, 500 hours on type with minimal handling will be. The 744 is mostly operated by the majors who have their own high entry criteria and prefer to do their own training anyway.

18th Mar 2004, 11:17
The 744 is mostly operated by the majors who have their own high entry criteria and prefer to do their own training anyway.

That's THE point.

You are going nowhere with that.

Only minor- regionals airlines might be impressed and offer you an ATR or 737 right seat.

Do that if you have NOTHING to loose. :hmm:

Perhaps I'm wrong. I know one airline where you might get 767 LEFT seat after that: Blue Panorama, Roma Italia :yuk: