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Vfrpilotpb
23rd Apr 2001, 12:17
Good Morning Ppruner's, according to the "Daily Mail" 23rd April, it seems that President Tony's motely crew have been in talks with the Jerrie's and Kermits, about handing over control of the Raf to a European Air Force, Good eh, we have the best airforce in the world, and it could go the way that the TSR 2 did, after Harold Wilson and his nomark crew got into No10, in the 60's, I know past glories dont run this world we live in now, but its a bit rich when we are finally possibly going to be deprived of our own Airforce, to people who had no spine, or balls enough to fight for their own capital city! What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Vfrpilotpb (edited 23 April 2001).]

Unwell_Raptor
23rd Apr 2001, 13:23
I don't think that the Daily Mail is the best place to find an objective and reliable guide to Tony Blair's policies. The Mail is in a blind panic at the moment, dreading a second Blair term, and willing to do anything to prevent it.

A and C
23rd Apr 2001, 13:37
We have an airforce that cant fly most of its transport fleet IFR without restriction due to lack of FM immune nav equipment and cant fly in RVSM airspace due to lack of equipment.

The latest RAF basic trainer cant fly in IFR because both the attitude indicators are powerd from the same sorce (eletric)and IF is part of the trainning the aircraft is ment to do.

This is not an air force its a joke and if it was an airline it would have gone bust by now.

The RAF has a lot of hard working people who are trying to get the job done but with the management it has at the presant time this is an uphill task in fact it is a national scandal that the RAF has been let to get to the state it has.

The fact is that a change of management is needed at the RAF and eny change has to be a change for the better.

porpoise
23rd Apr 2001, 15:11
The RAF is far more interested in doing a fly by for the Queen than defending the country. If it wasn't for the Americans we wouldn't have hit a thing in the gulf war and God help us if we ever have to depend on the tornado adv to defend these shores. even the battle of britain stories have got out of hand. The Polish and other foreign squadrans had a much better record. Ofcourse the RAF were still using tactics that were 20 years out of date. funny how some things never change.

scroggs
23rd Apr 2001, 15:51
Nice, balanced, well thought out and researched post, Porpoise. And on St George's day too. I take it you have vast personal experience of the Royal Air force to back up your claims? Or is your brand of reporting the senationalist, emotional tripe it appears to be?
The RAF has many, many problems right now. Most of them are not of its own making, but the fault of incompetent politicians trying to run things they don't understand, and refuse to take advice on. The NHS, Customs and Immigration service, the Police Forces and many other national organisations are suffering in the same way. Foisting the management of a very large part of the RAF off to Europe (that paragon of efficiency and good organisation, and the home of so many examples of great Air Forces. Not.) is not the answer, and is an insult to all the people who have worked so hard to keep the RAF in the top echelon of the world's military forces in spite of the politicians' efforts.

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Scroggs
Wannabe Forum Moderator
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Wedge
23rd Apr 2001, 16:25
Don't listen to anything the Daily Mail says. Unwell_Raptor is quite right, they are in a blind panic and are desperate to stave off another five years of Labour government. Fortunately for Labour, the Tories are doing a good enough job on their own of achieving a another spectacular defeat in the upcoming general election, divided as they are down the middle on the issue of Europe and now they are managing to portray themselves as a party of racists as well.


Vfrpilotpb, your post is a load of jingoistic nonsense. The RAF is a 'standing' joke now due to years of underinvestment, despite the very hard work put in by those on the inside trying to save it. A common stategic and defence policy is inevitable if this country continues its progress into Europe, and this means ever closer integration among our armed forces. My own opinion, for what its worth is that if we do not continue with European integration this country will become even less influential than it is now, Europe is our only salvation, and there is no longer any place for sentimental harking back to the good old days when Britain ruled the waves, God was an Englishman and the sun never set on the British Empire.......those days are long, long gone, despite what the Daily Mail leadership may like to believe.

To get back to the point, the RAF is in a wretched state now - the fault not of the dedicated people in it but of years of government (Tory and Labour) underinvestment. If the day came when this country really did have to defend itself against an aggressor (without the help of the yanks), I predict a very sorry state of affairs.

Still, if we want decent armed forces, we are going to have to pay for them. Hands up who wants to pay an extra 5 pence in income tax?.....that's the only way we are going to get them, as well as a decent health service and transport infrastructure.

GJB
23rd Apr 2001, 17:43
It is true - we cannot blame the people within the RAF, or indeed any of HM armed forces personnel, for the down-scaling and out-sourcing that has taken place over the last 2 decades.

It has been said that the aim was for a 'consolidation of resources' that will lead to a 'more efficient service our country can be proud of'

Broken planes, no spares, no mechanics to fix them, no pilots to fly them............very sad sight indeed.

We shouldn't be scared of investing in people; the Government will get most of their expenditure in wages back in taxes!

[This message has been edited by GJB (edited 23 April 2001).]

Vfrpilotpb
23rd Apr 2001, 19:52
Hi Wedge, I was'nt trying to say that GB ltd was still the God of the world, what I was bemoaning, was the way that this Government is following the lead set by previous Labour Leaders and MPs( and I will admit not served very well by the past Tories), but to offer to put our Airforce under the command of the European central Armed Force, is in itself, tantamount to suicide for this Country in any future conflict, we hire German U Boats to patrol our seas, we buy French aircraft and Helios to fly around the skies, and then to cap it all they are now talking of giving control of the RAF to Europe, I am sorry Wedge, but if you think our salvation is in Europe, in my opinion you have not been reading the small print! The Germans constitution, does not allow their Army , Navy or Airforce to fire a shot in anger, they are merely defensive,the last battle the French controlled themselve's was at Waterloo they lost, they would'nt even fight for their own Capital in 1941, ( and the soft MEPs want to change the name of Waterloo station) do you really want that! excuse the pun but this in more than the thin end of the wedge, this seems to be Tonys gang losing it BIG TIME!, History has to be read and understood , for it is a guide to what happens in the future, I just bet that you never set foot inside East Germany, if you had any idea of how those people were treated, I feel your opinions may have been altered.

Doctor Cruces
23rd Apr 2001, 21:26
I have to agree with those who see the RAF as a bit of a joke now. I was in for over 20 years and during my last decade of service saw standards decline to such an extent that it became obvious that I was leaving at the right time.

On the subject of equipment, I was at Marham one sunny summer day when a pair of F-15s arrived and parked on the visiting aircraft stand. They pulled to an impressive halt and did a formation canopy open, just as a canberra T4 creaked past on it's way to the runway. I thought to myself. "What must they think of us?" OK the t4 is to support the PR9 fleet because successive goverments have not seen fit to fund a suitable wet film replacement and the PR9 is a great a/c (I speak as one who served on 39 Sqn) but the rest of the RAF fleet is equally ageing and something needs to be done about it if we are to retain a credibility within the wider community.

Doc C.

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'An intellectual is someone who has been educated beyond common sense.'

brain fade
24th Apr 2001, 07:23
Crabs, we love you!
Super flying, Lovely fast multi-million swoopy horny bomby-shooty jets. paid to fly 'em too by eck. beats the pants off the old SLF and 'only another three to do and we'll be home by 21.30' that we get. Thing is, major conflicts these days are a bit thin on the grind. I'm not saying that there is No risk in military flying these days, but you must admit the reward is worth the risk so it's still a good deal! You can't blame the UK gov for not spending a fortune (wait a minute they ARE spending a bloody fortune!) on new planes for you to fly as there isn't actually a war on. You wanta new planes? You starta new war, or at least find a credible enemy. And please dont mention the inhabitants of former Yugoslavia or the Iraqi's. The time before 'desert storm' we sent a Brigade! and they still shat their pants!

SKYDRIFTER
24th Apr 2001, 07:45
A YANK'S CURIOSITY -

The U.S. cycles through such states of affair, but there is a distinct pattern to the syndrome. Specifically WHO gets the contracts when the rebuilding is done.

At the moment, Texas (any surprise?) controls the radical percentage of the "military-industrial complex" - as it's known. Assuming Boeing settles down in Dallas, that gives Texas the "military-industrial-space complex."

Does Britian experience such money-politics? Perhaps the U.S. might be lined up to get the RAF rebuild money, as well.

I pose this as a legitimate question.

Diesel8
24th Apr 2001, 08:04
All you have to do is take a look across the channel to the Royal Danish Air Farce, they have, according to a news article recently, twenty qualified pilots to man 56 F-16's, which btw is being upgraded to the latest standard. They have resorted to hiring British and American pilots to fly them, due to the fact that most Danish pilots are flocking to the airlines.

Perhaps an EU air force would not be such a bad idea, although I hate the thought of Brussels controlling it.

Blacksheep
24th Apr 2001, 09:29
Oh? I thought I was a European now. It says so right here on the cover of this red covered passport thingy. Maybe our more experienced and much better trained Air Marshals can take control of this European Air Farce wotsit and run it for our mutual benefit?

Oh dear, this Europe stuff is SO difficult. I think I'll just toddle off to the cinema. (Now then, what's the French for "Astra?" mumble mumble...wasn't like this in MY day I can tell you...mutter mutter...damned Johnny foreigners getting in everywhere...grumble grumble...bit of cold steel will soon put them in their place, eh? what?....)

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Through difficulties to les Etoilles