The JAR 66 engineers course.

[P51 mustang]

I' m considering enrolling on the JAR 66 course at my university, which offers a degree in aircraft engineering. I'm currently a first year student on a BEng Aerospace Engineering course, but the course is too theory based for me and I would prefer something that offers more hands-on experince where I'm actually around aircraft. I would like to know what kind of career prospects I can expect and also earnings, as I'll be in a lot of debt when I finish university. Any advice or comments would be much appreciated.

[Lear_doctor]

Some things to think about

The JAR66 course ultimately leads to a JAR66 (soon to be EASA) licence. But before you get there, there are some hurdles to cross.

1. You will need to get some 'hands on' during your course, which is not always easy, although not impossible. Less and less firms are prepared to to take you, as it takes recourses to 'look after you' during your stay.

2. When you qualify, you have to work in industry for a period before your allowed to make certifications. This could have an impact on the amount your paid during this time. So you may not immediately get paid at a level you need to repay your debts.

3. The aircraft engineering industry is shrinking. More and more operators are contracting maintenance out to places like the Czech republic (cheaper labour rates). This practice, in my opinion is in its infancy, but it will grow. Not unlike call centres moving to places like India. Bean counters don't think, they count.

4. Improvements in material science mean aircraft need less servicing than ever before. This in turn means a reduction in the amount of skilled labour required. I have been in aircraft maintenance for 20 years and have seen the trend. As an example engines on newer aircraft such as the Challenger 604 or the Challenger 300 do not have an overhaul life. They are considered, 'on condition', such a concept at this level was unheard off only a few years ago. Check cycles are expanded by the manufacturer to make the total running costs smaller, this also has to have an negative effect on the required labour force.

I don't want to seem totally negative, but if your going to invest a great deal of time and money in this, you need to realise that a well paid job at the end is likely, but not guaranteed. It's not easy to get in, but once you are, its a great way to make a living. I wish you all the best.

Details of salary scales and more general aircraft engineer info can be found here (http://www.airmech.co.uk)

regards

The Doc

PS - There are a great many people on this site with better knowledge and experience than myself. I hope they take some time to give thier opinions, which may differ from mine.

Hint!! you lot. Let this guy know what you think about starting out. Given the choice, would you do it all again if you had to?

[FIMbar the Furious]

P51

as The Doc says there is a lot of down sides to our job and the outsourcing to the former eastern block is the latest threat to our pay rates which have been stagnent for some time. There are also the problems our collegues at FLS are facing at the moment.

You will most certainly have to work some shifts which if its the wrong one start to take their toll although 4 on 4 off is excellent.

You will have to work in some terrible conditions, even with a major operator one hanger I worked in had U/S doors for an entire winter. If you work on the line( the most interesting IMHO) you will work in all weathers and at all times.

You will be treated with contempt from management and almost all other departments in the industry.

Would I do it again YES. I have had some great times in the industry and worked with some great people who have taught me a lot along the way. I now get some excellent travel benifits which give my family travel we could never dream of. I also have the oportunity to work abroad and although the pay is not what it should be for the responsability I live OK.

If you are going to do it the my advice is to go for B1 as there more positions for B1s. If you want to be B2 you can always convert later. While at Uni get them to help you with a student placement and keep a log book with every job you do or see (the CAA are getting very hot on engineers logs.) There are a few places that could take placements, BA at GLA and Cardiff, FLS, Britannia and Monarch some one else may know more. If / when you get a job take all the type training they throw at you.

You could also try getting a modern training scheme
(apprenticeship is not PC any more) BAs leads to a full B1 or B2 plus degree and I think Virgin do one as well

My last thought though is before you consider going down the maintenance route have you considered being a pilot, the training is not any more difficult and the rewards far greater

Hope this helps

FTF

[the egg man]

i agree with all of the above statments
i would also like to add that even though i really still enjoy my job after 20 years .i find the industry has changed a lot, in the way we work,the terms and conditions ,the perks,and not to forget the pay.
as a contractor my rates have not seen an increase since 2001 and jobs in this sector are getting harder to find,most companies ae downsizing there operations with lots of very highly skilled and qualified people on the job market this makes it a lot harder for new entries to get there foot on the first rung of the ladder.
things will improve and have to improve as air transport is still a growing market,but as far as aircraft maintenance goes it looks like its still cheaper to fly aircrafts half way around the world to do C and D checks then to do it inhouse.again its all down to cost.
with hourly rates in places like estonia and CSA a third of what we get paid. it does make economic sense to airlines to go to the cheapest bidder .
home grown talent or skills do not count for much in these financial cut throat times.
if i were you i would keep your options open as to a career and look into other forms of engineering if that is your goal as the future of our industry in the UK does not look too bright.
good luck to you

[Lear_doctor]

Only two replies in five days I'm afraid Mustang, nevertheless I think they are well worth a read, and IMHO are representative of the feelings of the majority of aircraft licensed engineers.

Fimbar's words are very wise, but he made one really excellent point, and with his kind permission I'm going to make it again so you don't miss it

My last thought though is before you consider going down the maintenance route have you considered being a pilot, the training is not any more difficult and the rewards far greater

This is the way forward. A job with kudos (sp?) and a good salary. Give this point very serious consideration

All the very best mate. I hope you get where you want to be


Regards


The Doc

[Genghis the Engineer]

Most engineering jobs suffer from a lack of prestige and aren't routinely overpaid - that's true of what might progress from your BEng or the JAR-66 course.

Both have potential to lead to a very rewarding job - if you make them. Equally, the BEng has potential to lead to an incredibly dull "backroom boy" job spending the rest of your life analysing undercarriages, and the JAR-66 has potential to offer a life of working night shifts in the back of a godforsaken hangar in the back of beyond changing and fixing those undercarriages.

Also don't go expecting the JAR-66 course to be an easy ride any more than your BEng is; professional aeronautical education is very hard work and equally the first year of both courses will contain lots of very dull (but necessary) basic theory that at the time seems rather pointless.


So, if you are looking for an easy ride, stay out of aeronautics. If you genuinely want to work on the design and development of aeroplanes, stick with your BEng. If you genuinely want to work on the maintenance of aeroplanes, go with the JAR-66. But either way, I'm afraid that the next 3 years are going to be hard work whilst you study a lot of things that seem pointless at the time - and both will require an element of luck and a lot of application to get the job you want afterwards.

Good luck, whichever you go for. Working in this business can be tremendously rewarding if you work at it - there are a lot of LAME's making good money and enjoying their jobs (albeit that it seems to traditional to whinge), and speaking for myself I finished a BEng, still use the theory most days, and get a lot (including a great deal of flying) out of it. The really good news is that neither area of work routinely uses anything like the amount of theory on a daily basis that you cover in the courses, particularly university courses.

G

[P51 mustang]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. To those of you who wanted to know why I haven't considered a career as a pilot, the answers very simple "MONEY!" I t's something that I do not have.

[Captain Rat]

I you are looking for some 'hands on' experience, I know that Virgin has had people like yourselves in the hangar for a few weeks at a time for 'work experience' (At Heathrow obviously) so they be worth a try.