EK time to Command???

[Flying_Tuur]

Any idea for a possible New-Joiner how much the time to Command is at this time??
How many F/O's are flying for EK?


I was thinking with everything I read the following...

Over 1000 pilots at this time in EK (half of these F/O.. so 500)

By 2012 expecting 2200 pilots, so they need 1200 pilots in the coming 8 years, which is 600 Captains.

If I compensate the retirees and Captains who resign with the number of DEC the take on now, this means that for a new joiner at this time, Command is about 7 years away???? ... and Accelerated Command seems like a useless promise since there will always be someone before you on the list with at least 3 years in EK????

What about the promised 3 to 4 years to Command????

Please someone prove me wrong!!!

I waited for this opportunity a long time, but suddenly I'm starting to chicken out... :uhoh:

[donpizmeov]

Your math looks about right. Every DEC now will only make the wait longer. We have half the fleet quoted for 2010 now I think, so I guess those already on board are OK RE command, but new joiners must be extremely close to the line.
Seems our credit limits are about to change as well (not sure as to what, as our communitive management refused to discuss the matter!!!).....but taking it that 777 captains are all flying between 85 and 95hrs each during March, I guess they can only go up...will this reduce the number of Captains required? We can only guess.
Average age of Left seaters at EK is pretty low....so retirements will not make a big difference I don't think.....
Don

[Cerberus]

I don't believe EK promise a time to command, they just tell you what the current state of play is.

However, looking at the numbers and assuming no increase in the expansion rate, you are probably not far off the mark. We are planning to have 2100 pilots, lets assume that 1150 are captains to allow for management, training etc. Right now we have near as damn it 1000 pilots and are expecting to hire a couple of hundred DECs over the next year or so.

The average age of the work force is pretty low, so best case would be 50 retirements by 2012. So we probably have now about our quota of Captains within the company to be supplemented by DECs. This would mean that 7 years might be optimistic, as we have all the Captain candidates we require until 2012, unless the expansion accelerates. Conversely, if the upgrade rate slows and the DEC recruitment rate increases even guys in the company now might be hurting despite the hollow sounding assurances from management that no one will be disadvantaged.

Hope that helps, not exactly optimistic but best guess right now, who knows what might happen in the future.

Cerberus:uhoh:

[menard]

Flying Tuur,

Living here on a F/O's salary, specially if you have a family, will cost you money, start saving now if you want to join!.....Just a tought...

[Dune]

Time to Command??

Very tough question given the huge movement of the goalposts by EK management. The decision to forego the established seniority list in favour of DEC's and the fact there is no contractual obligation to provide equal (or in fact ANY) opportunities for command in the expat F/O contracts raises a whole new set of possiblities.

One of the issues I am surprised hasn't surfaced yet is whether there will be ANY commands for future or current expat F/O's in EK in the not too distant future. Think it couldn't happen; then think again. It may have already begun.

Everyone seems to assume because of the planned expansion rate everyone joining the company will get a left seat in the future. Everyone seems reassured by the management statements that they only intend upon hiring 100 or so DEC's to fill the "short term void" (which incidentally really does not exist; it has been created by the management to justify the entry of DEC's).

Just for argument sake, what if the DEC program ends up being a success in the eyes of management (due to either training cost savings, perceived increases in experience which you could argue we would attain by hiring an "experienced" DEC and keeping our very experienced F/O's in the RH seat, etc); would that not give them pause to reconsider the entire issue of "limited" DEC's?

Playing devils advocate, I would say that should the current DEC program work out as management feels it will then there is a very real chance EK could go the way of other Far East and Middle East airlines who have reduced or entirely eliminated expat F/O to Capt upgrades and keep the current EK F/O's as F/O's. This of course would not apply to local F/O's who would be given upgrade because they are locals. Is there 600 DEC's in this world EK could hire in the next 8 years (75/year)? Absolutely; and probably more so now that many Captains in "less than ideal" airlines around the world with less than 3000 hours PIC (who may have come to EK as F/O's before the DEC changes) are now forgoing application to EK as F/O's and instead are staying at their current companies to get the PIC hours to apply as DEC's to EK.

Couldn't happen?? Same people thought that at NASDAQ 5000! In my opinion it is not outside the realm of possibility and in fact very possible. And should that be the case, maybe the question everyone should be asking should not be WHEN but IF a command is possible (and it better be clearly spelled out in your contract if you are counting on it). And if not, can you afford to spend the remainder of your career in EK at the F/O wage scales?

[Can't think of a name]

Dune,

Well said!! I was contemplating writing the same thing myself. But probably not as well.

EK is at a major junction in its planned (and unplanned) growth. The big question is, which road will they take? The road you have outlined is a very real alternative. And based on the performance of our enlightened ostriches in the present crisis, any road is possible, regardless of its logical short or long term merit.

Fly safe.... :ok:

[Zomp]

Guess the future doesn't look to bright for EK F/O's, EK is moving towards SQ with their upgrade policy.

PS: 411, I posted 8 years and more for a command in EK already a year ago without knowing of DEC's.

[Ze German]

Zer days auf de qvik kommand mit Emirates are fading into zer distance yah - like in zer Vorr, ven ze Eyeties ran avay ven zer Tommy Atkins chased zem viz zere large (und purfektly formed) Kumberland sosagges yah!

If errly kommand ist your 'scheiss-mission', bevare auf der Direkt Anus Kommands, shafting vun up zer brun dirtboxen!

As der illustreous Furher, Herr Thomas 'Pussy' Knowlen spreken: "Ve vill fight zer Piloteens (und ESPESHEALLY zer Ozschwein training Kapitans) on zer beachun, near zer Sailing klub. Und zey vill get zer bayonet in zer hedd YAH! HA HA HA!"

Vot am I spreken about? :(

Remember mein freunds: It all koms down to seks. To Bumsen or be bumsened!

[wonderbusdriver]

Mensch, ist es wirklich so schlimm?!!!.....
Ich mach drei Kreuze, nie in Versuchung geführt worden zu sein.

Good luck, to you guys.
For your sake, I hope they will soon realize, that you are one of the major assets of the planned expansion, instead of p@ssing on you incessantly.
3000 applicants? Gimme a break!
Those are numbers that mean absolutely nothing.

For my sake, I hope they (those disgraceful, venal middle "managers", as well as their "superiors") choke on their stupid, paltry greed and the whole system blows up in an "uncontained eingine failure".

By posting the truth here, you are doing all "wannabees" as well as yourselves a big favor!

[Can't think of a name]

Mein lieber herr Ze German,


Thanks for the humour.......... will you please come over and entertain a bbq crowd at my house??

Excellent stuff.....keep it up!!!!

CTOAN......
:ok:

[Zomp]

To bring it to a point, if you join now you have to wait till 2012 to get your command.
2012 the expansion is probably over then you have to wait till somebody retires.

As I posted before EK is following SQ, a DEC you have to train only once, a F/O when you hire him, then when you upgrade him and then you have to train another F/O to replace him (1:3)

EK just found another way to save a few bucks.

3 years ago it was good to join EK, today it's different, it's like the stockmarket that was great 97 3 years later it was a bad idea to jump on a train that left the station already.

[palm]

tell me guys more then 3500PIC on + 55000KG are they enough for DEC?

Just back from the "Gold city"....

[Uplink]

No DEC's for Boeing fleet, so they say. Command time on airbus now up to 4 years. @1900 pilots by 2010. I guess the line is now being drawn for the Capt/F/O split. Alot of movement ref commands on Boeing for 2005 but with 1100 pilots in the Company, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that commands will soon take a little longer than the figure of 3 years. If you are going to join try sooner rather than later !!

[411A]

For those that said 'direct entry Commands' will never happen and, the calibre of our guys assures that the road to Command is a short one...think again.

Airlines will always hire based on the circumstanes that prove the least expensive, and by hiring direct entry CAPTAINS certainly IS the least expensive, in the long run.

Some, who have had their heads buried in the ever present sand, have now woken up to this very real scenario. It has happened to others in the Middle East, now it's your turn.

Suckers.....:yuk:

NB.
I wonder just when some will wake up to the facts of life in the desert?
Answers on a postcard.

[Cuillin]

Don't forget - the number of aircraft planned for 2012 (and therefore crews) and what actually happens may be two different things.

A big threat is starting to get under way just down the road in Abu Dhabi. Etihad are planning a large expansion and may severely curtail Emirates plans.

I believe the time for joining and getting a command in under 4 years passed about 12 months ago.

Maybe that A310 command isn't so unattractive after all!

[Wiley]

(I wrote the following before seeing the post above. Good to see I'm not the only one thinking along these lines.)

I’m surprised no one has touched upon the real ‘dark horse’ in the equation re time to command in EK – and that is that EK is no longer the only new player in ‘der Gulf’.

In what to any outsider seems to be a communal commercial death wish, the ruling families in each Emirate are flooding the (let’s face it) finite market of Gulf Aviation with an ever increasing number of new airlines. We’ve got Qatar Airways, Gulf Traveller (a ‘low cost’ all widebody offshoot of Gulf Air now based in Abu Dhabi), Etihad, (also based in Abu Dhabi), Arabia in Sharjah (all of 10 miles from Dubai), as well as the slightly longer established Oman Airways in Muscat.

Even the local Arab pilots are somewhat bemused, reverting to black humour. (It’s the UAE, right? – that’s ‘United Arab Emirates’. Well, Abu Dhabi has Itiad, [for the uninitiated ‘Itiad’ means ‘united’ in Arabic], Sharjah has Arabia, and Dubai has Emirates. So we are the ‘United’ Arab Emirates.)

Unfortunately, the ‘united’ part of the country’s name seems to be a misnomer, with Abu Dhabi (all of 70 miles from Dubai) seemingly hell bent on creating a larger airline than Dubai’s as quickly as possible. Sharjah’s ‘low cost’ Arabia is said to be creating a new market that will not infringe on Emirates’ existing market. (Just like Virgin Blue did in Australia. Yeah, right.) However, the latest ‘Flight International’ speaks of their plans to expand to 50 aircraft. The proverbial Blind Freddie could see that such an expansion will undoubtedly bite deeply into Emirates’ customer base, particularly within the region and to the Subcontinent.

Dubai is half way through building a very expensive new terminal underground on the existing airfield (space constraints, even after removing multiple homes and commercial properties for the runway extension dictate that down is the only way to go to fit everything into the very limited existing site). The extensive building works (to say nothing of the increasingly chaotic traffic situation on the roads to and from the airport) have the potential of, at the very least, delaying the desired expansion. (Yesterday morning’s fog should prove yet again how badly the airport needs an up and running Cat III ILS – highly unlikely in the short term with the taxiways in their current state.) I’ll leave unsaid what they could cause at the worst.

There’s a huge stretch of desert allocated for a new airfield at Jebel Ali, half way between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, quite close (maybe too close for some!) to the burgeoning 5 star tourist hotel ‘strip’. It doesn’t take an aviation or business genius to see that with just a hint of co-operation, a new, state-of-the-art airport that would be shared by Abu Dhabi and Dubai could – should – be built post haste at Jebel Ali. Nor does it take a genius to see that these many separate airlines in such a small area are a recipe for commercial disaster to most, if not all players in a not unlimited market.

Unless the unthinkable occurs and one of the new starts, in their race to expand too rapidly, suffers a hull loss that could knock them out of the race, the prize – commercial survival – will probably go to the airline whose owners have the deepest pockets. If that’s the case, the race will be between Qatar (Qatar Airways) and Abu Dhabi (Etihad), certainly not Dubai and Emirates.

So prospective applicants for a job with EK might like to factor this (in my opinion at least) rather large factor into their thinking.

[stuck-in-the-sand]

Well thanks for your kind sympathies 411A, diplomatically expressed as usual. However, you were of course, quite correct.

As someone who joined a year and a half ago, I want to whole-heartedly dissuade anyone thinking of joining EK now. It is NOT the place you want to come unless you really have no other options.

I agree with the previous estimates regarding time to command. The accelerated command program is effectively dead in the Airbus fleet as deliveries of this type slow and DEC's fill any gaps. Some fortunate Boeing lads will continue to jump the que for a short while longer as 777 deliveries pick up. Once the less experienced Boeing FO's complete their 3 year sentence they will start to upgrade and the accelerated program will cease on the Boeing as well. DEC's will continue on to the 310 freighter fleet (which is rumoured to involve an aggressive expansion plan) as any upgrade from another Airbus type is not allowed under the schitzophrenic EK (miss)management plan....remember however that DEC's have been hired and given a complete type rating and Command on an aircraft that they have never flown before. Some how having no regional experience, no EK experience and no experience on type is all overcome by the fact that they have a magic number of total hours in their log books.

Now of course we were guaranteed that the DEC's would not, in anyway whatsoever, affect the career progression of our FO's. Well my upgrade has gone from a year, year and a half to FOUR years. I can only conclude that the AS***** spouting the guarantees was either naive, incompetent or deceitful. I'll let you form your own opinion. So to sum up, you have no control of your destiny and will simply have to suck-up whatever shafting the fickle BOZO'S decide to give you next. The sycophantic and in-effective CP'S and Fleet Managers do not give a shi* about your whining and simply keep their heads down.

I should also reinforce just how poorly you will be paid reference the ever increasing cost of living here in DXB. It will suffice for a single guy but simply does not cut it if you have a wife, and kids in school. You will be VERY hard pressed to put anything away for the 4-7 years (or longer) you will spend as an FO.

Now of course you have to decide for yourself if the climate and country appeal to you. I came from the most beautiful spot on earth so therefore have a certain point of view. But let's be clear; for 4 months a year it is HELL on earth. Stinkin', unbearble, stay- in-all-day, HOT. For the shoulder seasons it is simply uncomfortable. For 6 months it is lovely.

Depending on your personality or mood, the driving will make you stay home, laugh or go crazy with rage.

So, the point of my rambling on? I'm leaving! Can't say when, can't say how, but I've decided that this airline doesn't deserve my experience (or that of the hundreds of other qualified FO's for that matter) so I'm getting out. And I don't think I'm alone... Don't let anyone tell you that morale is high or that generally things are okay, because the reality is, it just gets worse and worse.

Don't say we didn't warn you.

Sucker

[(about to be)ExEKFO]

It is all about 11 months that I have been here, and I had enough. I have contacted my employer back in the UK and they will take me back, so I am just waiting from my lawyer to tell me how not to pay the bond and I am out of here. It looks good though, as emirates has changed the terms and conditions of my employment without my consent, so under UK law I will write to them to tell them that I do not accept the new offer and that I will only work under the old T&Cs. If they do not agree with this then I am free to go. If they do agree to implement the T&Cs then great, maybe you should all do the same.
Keep looking in the next couple of weeks as I am sure that this news will definetely hit the **** fan and it will be an issue within Emirates. As soon as I have the green light things will be go....
Cant wait to get out of this **** sand whole sorry Award winning airline...

[millerscourt]

about to be ex EKFO

Good for you.

Strange how these ( in the travelling public view ) Award winning Airlines lilke Singapore and now Emirates are getting more and more unpleasant to work for.

[(about to be)ExEKFO]

I do not expect a fludgate of people leaving EK but in the last few days in my building I have come across people wo are considering leaving. I know of a guy who is leaving EK for Ryanair. You can imagine how bad things must have been for this poor fellow to leave Emirates to go to Ryanair.
Everyone is looking for his own out here and so am I.
For those of you applying I would not even consider time to command as a factor for not coming here. Lies, management inaptitude, and a rapidly detiriorating environment to work in should be enough reasons not to come. Even the guys in the left seat are looking to go elsewhere... Emirates may have a bright future on paper, but it is becoming like Gulfair down the road from us...

[wilco77]

Hi guys

I am with emirates been with them for 5yrs now,no command yet.
I went to the office to find out where i stand in the command pool and had a long chat with a vry very reliable source which has made me very upset.He told me that command qualification for new and present FOs is going to change.

There will be a new rule implemented by JAN, which is that all FO' new or present will have to serve a minimum of 8 years in the company before command qualification. DEC's will make up the back log of commanders as expansion continues.


I cant speak any more as I am busy dusting of my CV.

[quarefellah]

Hi,
Beg to differ wilco77. As bad as this place is run (and soon to be ex EKFO isn't far off with his comments), I sincerely doubt the veracity of your '8 year wait' story. Sounds to me like you are just 'lighting the blue touchpaper'. Anybody 'in the know' care to add their ha'pence???

Chuck ran!

[crapflying]

I think wilco77 is trying to wind everyone up. I am not an expert on airline hiring policies but Emirates needs experience in both seats to keep its airplanes flying far and often as they do. Even if Emirates management planned to do something like this it would never be on paper since that would be the end of FOs applying here. (unless of course they want low time pilots looking for a jet breakthrough, which I dought). I had a word with the new boss and I told him what I thought of the place since he asked me in the CBC the other day, needless to say he replied like a politician and in the end I was not even sure what the question had been. I do not expect him to do anything good, or anything bad. I think he is a nice man just having a good time touching on the great issues of FOM and avoiding any confrontation with either side of the line.
In my view Emirates has already changed from where it was heading a few years ago, and in a few years time it will have changed from where it is heading today. Aviation is a great industry and everyone has a great plan which for some it works and for others it does not. I always looked at the big picture which was my bottom line and not the company's future or interest, because once you are out the door either by choice or retirement no one remembers you or cares about you.
All you have left when you are at my age are memories and what you have in the bank.
For all of you wanting to leave Emirates make sure you have a good solid plan for the near future, and try to see this job for what it is and not what you think it should be, or what you wish it was. Flying is a way of putting food on the table. Nowdays no one will be rich through flying. Some like to fly because they like airplanes, others for time off, others for seeing the world, others for not having to put up with the wife at home. Each and everyone of us has his/her reasons. Do not look at the guy and girl next door and see what they are doing. Their reason might not necessarily be your reason.
In closing all I have to say is that none of us should live to fly, but fly to live. No airline is a substitute for a balanced and good life, and no airplane will provide the thrills and joys life has to offer.
Just 4 and a half more months left for me.......

[palm]

Guys, i've been reading all this since my return from your "paradise" , i had a good feeling from there but the color is changing right now
i've a good job in Europe, left seat and be really afraid of moving now??
Flying in Europe give you "still" right and respect "at least in my country" but it' seems that all of you working in Emirates are really in a bad situation.

Give me "one" reason for coming, or give me an other for not......

[shitbottle]

Just to add to the above this leads to another thing. Nearly all the Pilots involved in a previously successful recruitment program have quit including both managers, The previous and very capable manager for pilot recruitment has been sidelined. You can form your own speculation as to why this has happened!

My own conjecture is that anybody you meet in a recruitment session now will still strive to get the best people they can "GET" They will also mislead to assist your decision that your career is best served by coming here. Once you’re in they don’t give a **** because you work somewhere else and focus on duping the next poor sod.

The whole DEC thing is a fabrication, we have guys with 10,000 hours here nearly all on heavy / medium equipment many of which had extensive training and worldwide experience which they will not upgrade. They do this to favor a guy with 4000 commercial hours experience only 10,000 total and 3500+ PIC hrs in a low cost on a 737-300 (4 Yrs) doing domestic and short haul, they then give them a full conversion on the worlds heaviest twin Jet, put them in the seat with a 400 Hr cadet who knows more about the aircraft than they do by a considerable margin, with more worldwide experience and the Cadet can in fact spell ETOPS unlike the newly appointed DEC. An extreme but it has been happening and getting covered up. (Sorry no wish to offend our more qualified DEC's but you know its true in some cases too)

This is apparently in the name of safety!

The reality is EK have had a lot of close shaves, the current management attitude is pushing that to a potential disaster day by day, fatigue is common place, the much vaunted fatigue monitoring system has been dumped, and training gets more mediocre daily. 1000 + pilots know it but a few guys with less than PPL experience have decided otherwise !

Here's what’s been dumped since I was here (Not Long)

1 Accelerated Command

2 Transitional Upgrades

3 The Seniority System Totally

4 Preferential Bidding (Yes they say we have a system but it don’t work anymore with numerous manual insertions) so if you bid 7 days off to get home they will give you a 1 Hr return sector in the middle so you can not get away. By order of the EVP Engineering and Operations.

5 Any form of Maternity care for your wife (if you have one) for the first two years, this includes birth, miscarriage etc etc. If you get married here your new wife will not be covered for two years after your married regardless of how long you have been in the company.

6 Health insurance for any newborn child for the first two weeks of its life, regardless length of service, (if it’s ill, pay for the first two weeks, if its premature that will cost you your monthly salary every two weeks to keep your child alive, Then whatever’s wrong will be excluded permanently from the cover) Of course you can go to the local hospital with a health card but be prepared for very third world medicine ! Or go home and ask for the time off not likely ! and you thought you had left the military

7 Credit Scheme for remuneration, the recent assurances that the level of reserves will not be increased has in December’s roster been shown to be a lie.

8 Augmented (Rest Hours in The Bunk) do not count towards your hourly max of 100 Hrs, they can and will roster you 150 Hrs flying per month.

9. One years continuous service to be eligible to participate in profit share, (new joiners don’t worry as this year the profit targets were raised ludicrously high in a deliberate attempt to reduce the profit share if there is any)

10 Housing the standard of housing is getting dreadful and it is rumored we will be soon paying our own utilities, don’t believe in rumors points; 1 through 9 were all rumors before they happened FACT.

So when you come for your interview ask the team about the above, don’t be shy, the answers they give you may stop you making an awful mistake. Also ask them if this has happened in such a short period when the company is making record profits, what do they expect the company to do in leaner times ?

Also ask them to look at the corporate ORg chart for flight Ops. You will see the EVP Flight Operations has no fewer than 12 Positions under him, 11 are engineering related the single operations one (us) is Vacant ! that might give you some idea of how the management view us.

And DEC’s remember if they ever have to lay off you are very very junior, The FO’s behind you will be much more senior and be paid less than you when if they get a command. Just think who our loving management will be throwing out the door first.

Finally a note about the much vaunted provident scheme.

UAE Law states That an Employer Must pay to every salaried employee after 12 months in a company (Bus driver/cleaner/pilot) an end of service benefit:-

ESB (End of Service Benefit)

21 days basic salary for the fist 3 Yrs service = 6%
30 days salary for every year thereafter = 8%

Ek’s Provident Fund (which you have to join) provides

First 10 Yrs 12% of basic salary
Next 10 Yrs 15% of basic salary


As you see Ek only provide above law what they would otherwise have to give 6% year 1-3, 4% year 3-10 and 7% yr 10 onwards. If you’re provident fund does not perform well, and the amount you would get from your ESB is higher than you get from your provident you get the ESB. But you have had to provide over 60% of the money which EK would have had to give you anyway with your own 5% contribution.



PS also consulted lawyer at home, EK have by all definition altered your contract of employment regardless of if the terms were part of the actual contract you signed or not. These terms (productivity Pay) were presented to you by EK and as far as my home Law is concerned the unilateral change is enough to be considered breach of contract. While you have no redress under UAE law any law suite filed against you in your home country for recovery of the Bond by EK will probably fail. You will have no redress against EK as your contract is governed by UAE law. This of course depends on your home country.

The advice of the employment lawyer was do your overnight don’t come back and say goodbye to your ESB.


EK You Decide!

[(about to be)ExEKFO]

Hey palm, I do not know your situation and therfore I cannot comment. It has to be your decision. I know many people who do take the offer and many who do not take the offer. Either way you will not be in the minority group.
If I knew then what I know now I would have never left my job. Emirates has a great PR department in every way, and just as you came down here and showed them your best side so did Emirates. I have never heard of any recruitment process telling you the truth about what you are about to get. Everyone shows you the best side of the job, and forgets to tell you about the other side that always exists.
Think before you you come though, as pilots here on pprune are not just a small group of upset pilots while the rest are a happy bunch.
Having said that I do not want you to think that everyone goes about miserable and upset, rather most of us are looking to jump ship... at some point

[etops777]

I have spent 2 years with EK and now have the opprotunity to return home for a job as a captain on the Fokker100.

any suggestions

[Morwheus]

He etops777

I would go to your fleet manager and find out from the horses mouth as to your status for upgrade with the expected 777 expansion.

If you get the 8 yrs to command answer then bail mate! there is no point hanging around and putting up with more of this EK bullsh%t.

I have been here just over a year and have had two offers to return to my old command ........now I am seriously considering going back. The exchange rate here is appauling ( I dont blame EK for that) and now my terms and conditions are constantly changing. I am begining to feel that I have no choice but to leave.
I feel sucked in and ripped off. if the command isnt in the very foreseable future I am out of here and back to my left hand seat .....bond or no bond.

My advice to anyone thinking of coming to the sand "STAY WAY" you will be much happier

Morf:E

[fatbus]

leave, the more guys that do are doing everyone a favour, but no being pissed off in the cockpit

[Uplink]

Hey palm check your pm

[411A]

Hmmm, from some of the comments above, it truly does seem as though the bloom has gone off the rose at EK.

IF you look back in the recent past, you will find that this has happened with a lot of Middle East/Arabian Gulf carriers, and this progression ain't gonna change anytime soon.

The big bucks days are right and truly over.
I often wonder just why some are really surprised...after all the cards were on the table for quite some time.

[Dropp the Pilot]

I've been at EK for more than a decade now and anytime I feel that the bloom has gone off the rose, I just congratulate myself in that I wil never have to work with 411A and a gentle glow suffuses my soul.

Seriously man, your schadenfreude-ridden existence is doing no one any good. When you travel, do you bring an extra bile tank with you? Your rancour and ill-will are epic in proportion.

[Uplink]

So 411A, ****bottle and ekbusdriver etc

What are your options. You say the big bucks are over. Exactly !!so you dont have alot of options. You could try another job but I get the feeling you would not be happy there either. There is one other option and that would be a change of career. Failing that start looking on the brightside. The market in USA and Canada is crap. Europe gives you respect due to unionism, but the standard of living esp UK is expensive. The Far East is similar to here. So where do you go....

Solution; go to work and try and enjoy it. At least you have a job and a choice of where you go. I think in the Managements eyes the price is right whether we think so or not (and I am not management) Their view is that if you dont like it then you know where airport road is. There will be several hundred that will take your place. Strange thing is in the few months following your fictitious resignations, everyone will get on with their lives and you will be just someone who used to work here.

I have experienced that in my last job and whatever anyone says this is alot better than what I had before. Remember why you came here in the first place. Maybe you have outgrown Dubai and should change jobs or careers. If none of that works, then vote with your feet and leave. Dont tell people about it just do it. I did in my last career and have not looked back. I have also seen many people say they are pissed off and are going to leave. I was in my last comapny for a long time and there was a guy there who the first time I met him just moaned about how his life and job was crap. He is still there and still moaning and that 20 years ago. What an arsehole !

T & C's will not change yet. Only when they need to change them and that is when they cannot get people to fly the aircraft. It will happen so just be patient.

[411A]

You have more or less directly hit the nail on the head, Uplink, and that is precisely what many should do, if they don't like it...leave.
I spent quite a few years in the Middle East, but when I noticed that smiling at the bank book was not all that satisfying anymore, moved on to greener pastures.
And, not more salary either...about equal, but with much nicer folks to work with (less agravation) and better destinations.
Its called different strokes for different folks, but some can only moan and moan...and moan, and seemingly never be truly satisfied.

Do pilots in general moan more than others?
Yep, they sure do.
Often wondered just why, as surely these same problems crop up in many occupations.

Professional flying can be a wonderful way to make a living, if only you can 'look around' the small stuff.
Sadly, many cannot.

A couple of years ago, many here mentioned that 'EK will never need direct entry Captains, as in....'our First Officers are a cut above the rest, and the upgrade is assured.'

Oh really?

Hasnt panned out that way, now has it?

Yep, told you so then, but no one wanted to believe.

Now, the other shoe had dropped, and some are not happy about the whole affair.

OTOH, the company seems to be doing rather nicely, so make the most of it....or move.

Simple as that.

[palm]

i can not believe what i read, why are you still flying for Emirates guys, take the first flight back to your country and see what you will find here....don't know if it's beter?

Ryanair, easyjet, look at Volare in Italy.....ask those guys if there are happy NOW.

Just have fun a couple years in Dubai, good aircraft, easy life and stop the job after, do something else, open a pub, make a sex movie, or just do nothing but PLEASE stop crying like baby's....on your 777 or 340.

Palm

[Vagrant]

The last time I contributed, I was accused of being a managment or recruiter wannabe. Many of us here are not exactly thrilled with the new pay structure or the apparent delays in upgrade, however, for VERY many of us this job is still better than our previous ones, some of which no longer exist. Not a wannabe, just a realist. Outside there aint pretty.

To the guys that have options, such as returning to their former left seat positions, why all the noise? Get your old job back, check with your lawyer (or better yet get yourself fired from EK, thereby avoiding the bond thing), and get out quickly and quietly.

I don't have any options, so I'm stuck and making the best of what is a very good job, by any standard. For you others, I am truly happy for you and hope things work out. I just can't understand why you would come on this forum and moan and groan like little girliemen. What are you hoping to achieve? You want support, ok, we hereby give it to you!!

V:ok:

[rainforest]

Uplink, palm,411A & vagrant,
U guys have given these people ( the moaners ) the true picture of aviation nowadays. But as we all can see, not all of us can see reality. I don't know what kind of dream do these people have before coming to the desert ! Welcome to the real world ! If not , go somewhere and find one . Interestingly, more than half of the people( whom I had the unfortunate opportunity to listen to on my layovers) came from jobs which no longer exist !
On the brighter side, there are lots coming up in the far east and not to forget up north in the cold and wet " blighty ". So, if that will make me happier, I , for one will surely move one , bond or no bond. And better be quick guys, its 5 months to that sticky, hot like hell summer.

[Dune]

I continue to shake my head every time I see responses from individuals who forcefully condemn those who post negative comments about Emirates. Why the hell you types still blindly support this airline (or in fact ANY airline) like you are married to it is beyond my comprehension. Your unending devotion borders on the comical at times. Hate to burst your bubble guys but it is JUST A JOB and you are JUST A NUMBER; nothing more and nothing less. Do you honestly believe this company has anywhere near the loyalty towards you that you appear to have towards this company?

Why is it important to have both sides of the debate about the pro's and con's of EK on this forum? Because believe it or not there are still guys out there like this schizophrenic "Palm" who figures everyone should come to EK and if they don't like it they can "Just have fun a couple years in Dubai, good aircraft, easy life and stop the job after, do something else, open a pub, make a sex movie, or just do nothing......" Does anyone currently working for EK believe you can do a couple of years here and then do nothing?? Bottom line is this guy (and many others like him, I am just using him as the most recent sad example of the uninformed) still believe the hype, the past history, the misinformation and the EK corporate veneer and are trying to make career choices based upon either erroneous or misleading information presented to them. That is why we need discussion and debate, so hopefully the REAL message gets out and not the misconceptions that have duped some into coming to EK in the past.

I used Pprune before I came here to assist in my decision process as I'm sure most did. At the time I joined EK was probably one of the top 5 airlines in the world to come work for (due to a combination of money, lifestyle and career progress) and I do not regret having made the move (and as an aside, when I joined you rarely if ever saw ANY negative comments about EK on Pprune. Why was that? Because at the time it was a great place to be. Look at the number of negative posts now, what is that telling you?).

However, I am also smart enough to understand time does not stand still and things do change. The EK I joined is not the EK of today but many outsiders still think it is and that is the problem.

Money: Forget about it.

A starting salary of 3480 Euro's/month for an F/O, 5425 Euro's/month for a DEC (as of today’s exchange rates and dropping quickly), a 3.5% pay raise over the past 6 years when the inflation rate in DXB is averaging 2.5%/year, changes in T&C's with respect to credit hours resulting in an average 30% reduction in "productivity" pay, continued growing gap between educational support allowance and school fees, etc.

Lifestyle: Mixed.

Better a number of years ago when the traffic was 1/2 of what it is now, there were still a number of public beaches available, and private beach club memberships were a third of what they are now. Pilot’s club membership helps a bit in this regard but is of no credit to EK.

Most concerning is the recent changes to the T&C's which allow them to roster you for a minimum number of days off and then fill all the extra days not taken up with flying with reserve at absolutely no cost to the company. Any chance they will not do this? Suggest the lifestyle will deteriorate rapidly in the very near future.

Command: Uncertain short term, forget it long term.

With a solid seniority list it would be easier to judge but with DEC's bypassing seniority and being taken whenever the company likes in numbers the company wants I would not want to be an F/O at this company. Irrespective, the orders are coming and you might get lucky but I'd hate to stake my career on it.

Longer term the music has to stop sometime. Everyone seems to be betting their futures on calculating "X" number of airplanes in "Y" number of years and coming up with "Z" time to command. The one very large flaw in this calculation (irrespective of DEC's) is whether those "X" number of airplanes will ever show up. My perspective is there is way too much capacity coming on in the next 8 years within the Gulf and something has to give. My guess: Etihad and Qatar continue their expansion due to very deep local pockets and a stated goal to grow their respective airlines at their announced expansion rates irrespective of profitability. Emirates to continue to expand until the excess capacity in the Gulf hits the bottom line; then a very severe reduction or even a stop in expansion. The question then becomes what does Emirates do with all the a/c they have on order. Looking into my crystal ball I see them having purchased one of the most lucrative options on the market (bought billions of dollars of a/c at rock bottom prices at a time when both Boeing and Airbus were desperate for any business they could get). What happens in 6 years when the world of aviation has recovered and Delta/United/etc start looking for extra capacity on short notice? Emirates will be more than happy to sell those a/c they don't need anymore (both those currently on the production line and the additional options) to those in need of extra airlift at a considerable profit to Emirates. The music stops, the expansion ends and who are the F/O's without a left seat trying to live in DXB with a family on the F/O pay scale?

Bottom line is the days of Emirates being THE place to be have long since past. It might still suit some who either are single, local, unemployed or independently wealthy (crapflying, that's for you :O ) but for those of you who are with a decent airline making decent money in your home country I would seriously consider looking elsewhere for employment. Just my honest opinion.



stuck-in-the-sand
(about to be)ExEKFO
wilco77
crapflying
****bottle
etops777
Morwheus
EKBusDriver

Once again thank you for your input. It is the balance you have provided that is necessary to keep those outside informed about what is going on within this company.

For those leaving us I wish you all the best. Not my time yet but continuing to look seriously at other alternatives and if/when it comes up there is no doubt I'm out of here. Just haven't found it yet but I'm envious of those of you who have.



Palm:

For a guy who has minimal Command experience ("tell me guys more then 3500PIC on + 55000KG are they enough for DEC?") and is attempting to use the DEC back entry door I think your response to those who gave you specific feedback on what it is like to work at EK borders on arrogance.

You asked for the reasons (Give me "one" reason for coming, or give me an other for not......") and when guys take the time to respond to your request your response is:


"i can not believe what i read, why are you still flying for Emirates guys, take the first flight back to your country and see what you will find here....don't know if it's beter?

Ryanair, easyjet, look at Volare in Italy.....ask those guys if there are happy NOW.

Just have fun a couple years in Dubai, good aircraft, easy life and stop the job after, do something else, open a pub, make a sex movie, or just do nothing but PLEASE stop crying like baby's....on your 777 or 340


It is obvious you have already made up your mind as to what it is like to fly for Emirates in "paradise" as you described it so please do not waste our time and this site's bandwidth asking for input.


Dune

[Shake]

Thanks Dune, I think you summed it up well.

[sluggums]

Yep well said Dune.............The reasons that have brought people here in the past are disappearing or being eroded due to T&C changes, inflation etc

A bit dissapointing really:uhoh:

[goolychit]

Is it any wonder airline managers continue to hack away at our T&C when there are people like uplink, vagrant, rainforest and others, who are happy to bend over and take it when, and where required.

The facts are pretty well summed up by Dune but maybe a few other brief points may be worth considering.

Firstly ones status, ie single or married has a huge influence on ones opinion with regard to Ts&Cs. Its fair to say that single guys could probably save a reasonable proportion of what they earn, and manage their levels of rest and fatigue quite adequately. A married FO with kids on the other hand probably wont be able to save a thing.

Ones position ie Capt or FO is also worth considering. FOs save little but do have some life style, typically flying 70-80 hours a month. They rarely get overtime, so thus are not bothered by recent changes in the credit system. Captains on the other hand have been maintaining unsustainable levels duty, and flying hours at between 90-100 hours a month, with a good deal of it back of the clock. Couple this with minimum rest turnarounds, some done under dispensations, and you now have a serious fatigue issue. With recent changes some crew have been flying 120hours+.(due to the new rule which only counts stick time towards flight time limitations, and does not include time in the bunk) Recent changes to the credit scheme will result in significant reductions in overtime payments, for more work. Thus again the opinion of a new FO probably does not reflect future realities.

As a general observation in my brief 20+ years in the industry Ive never seen it in such a mess. Ive never seen Ts & Cs, levels of fatigue, disregard for safety, morale, professional status ext ext, as bad as it is today. What airlines are getting away with is nothing short of scandalous. However the masters of such tactics, ie SQ and EK will surly find themselves in more and more deep S#@t (diddly doo) as the market continues to turn in our favor. Rest assured that there will be further attempts to cut our conditions, and professional status as the accountants go through their death throws as they desperately try to justify their floored strategies.

Throughout all this the pilots have continued to maintain the highest of operational, and personal standards while the accountants, as always continue to stoop lower than a snakes armpit. Shame on them!

[picu]

Fair enough. You've stated the problem. Now what's the solution?

[Payscale]

Gooly..

So what you are saying is management is crab, accountants are snakes and FO are rich bastards with time to sleep?

You need a long layover with plenty of sleep, a handfull of prozacs and the last pages of the lastest Flight Inernational. Just kidding. I am sure we will survive and remember the grass is only greener on top of a septic tank.

Have a good one ;)

[Verified]

you thought GF was bad! Welcome to the real world......

[411A]

gollychit,

The excessive monthly duty time for crew (Captains apparently only now, altho this could of course change) is only likely to be altered IF and WHEN there is an accident, or a severe incident.

Then, the FAA will have a look (especially if it happens anywhere near the USA) and will mention....category two.

It will surely have EK's undivided attention then.
You must surely pay the piper at some point, accident/incident...or not.

[6100]

411A

I hate to state the obvious, but we had our serious incident, then they changed the flight time limitations to what they are now. So I don't hold any hope that the company will change them back to what civilised countries use.

The only chance is that the next serious incident is in a country that will strongly suggest that crew fatigue was implicated in the event.

[sluggums]

......DEC's still being Interviewed and recruited as of 4 weeks ago.:mad: :mad:

[ARMGAT]

411 A,

The FAA had already a close look at EK in the passed and had banned them. Only recently did the UAE DGCA get a new approval.

I strongly suggest that EK crewmember write to Capt Kim Miller from the FAA AFS 50 Department based in Washington.

Its time the UAE starts to respect and treat their expatriates as human beings.

In my opinion the situation has degraded that much that crews are afraid of taking any decision that may expose the Airlines safety record.

Regards

[Quod Boy]

Evening Gents,

Interesting,debate,things are moving along,2 more FOs resign,this week,which I find disheartening,but not surprising.The new boss,however,is a gent,time will tell if can deliver.Im as uncertain as the rest of you.

First off,Vagrant,me thinks you seek a car park slot,Rainforest,you too,possibly an office,and Palm,Im afraid,your sort,make me shake my head.I also would like to see an improvement in spelling please chaps.Crapflyer,your comments well intended,Im sure,but many,FOs who gave up good slots,now face a very uncertain,career path.No axe to grind with you,just the way it was done.

Dune,you speak wise words,(as does Im afraid on this occasion 411),the bottom line is,EK is and has changed,for the worse,in terms of Ts&Cs,,(as 411,has long predicted)I note,that GF is often quoted,as SQ,on these pages.GF has some great pilots,and has seen hard times,but is addressing them.SQ remains,well,SQ.

The fact remains,both were once excellent airlines,with first class,Ts&Cs for pilots.

However,both have had fatal hull losses,in recent years,and through rather major human errors,both remain in business,to this day.What short term memories,the pax have,and EK management,must be well aware of this.A hull loss,is tragic,but,handle it well,and the pax soon return,with travel/cost induced amnesia.


EK has had a very,very close shave,and to continue in the vein,that appears to be evident,with recent events,is at best,surprising.I truly believe,not all the really important stuff,has ever,until very recently reached the ears of the big players.Its time,to pay attention,IMHO.

Good luck to all colleagues seeking pastures new.

History,gents,needs looking at and researching,for those FOs coming,expect a long wait to LHS.

Off to the pub.QB

[Oceanic]

Atb exEk FO,

I've been watching this space (as per your posting of a couple of weeks back) to see what the outcome has been to your response/refusal of the new t&c's. If successful, this would surely open the floodgates. Was the UK lawyer helpful......:ok: