SA send arms to Haiti with a SAAF Boeing

[Gunship]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&click_id=79&art_id=qw1077971222799B230&set_id=1


Johannesburg - Democratic Alliance leader Tony Leon came out strongly against the reported shipment of military equipment to Haiti by the South African government on Saturday.

The Beeld newspaper reported on Saturday that an South African Air Force Boeing is expected to fly to Haiti on Tuesday with a cargo of 150 R1 rifles and 5 000 bullets.

A total of 200 bulletproof jackets would form part of the shipment which would be sent to the embattled government of Haitian President Jean Bertrand Aristide.

The newspaper said it could not obtain any official confirmation of the report.

In a speech prepared for delivery at a Democratic Alliance rally in KwaZulu-Natal, Leon said the African National Congress, and President Thabo Mbeki, chose the oppressors over the people.

"The arms transfer to Haiti must be stopped," Leon said.

He said it was time South Africans used the April 14 national election to "puncture the imperial disdain of President Thabo Mbeki and the African National Congress towards democracy and human rights around the world."

He said: "We cannot even find enough bulletproof vests to protect our own police at home.

"And yet we are spending millions of rand, on top of the R25-million we have already spent, to send bullet-proof vests to protect the rogue regime of Jean-Bertrand Aristide."

Leon said the reported shipment of the arms could be a violation of the National Conventional Arms Control Act, which stipulates that arms shipments should avoid contributing to internal repression, systematic violation of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

"Given the brutal track record of the Aristide regime in suppressing dissent, it would seem likely that the South African arms shipment will be used to ill purpose.

"The ANC is now supporting an autocrat in Haiti who has taken his country to civil war, and it is standing alongside Robert Mugabe's tyrannical rule in Zimbabwe.

"In every case, the ANC chooses the oppressors over the people," he said. - Sapa

[Jangys]

There is no fuel available in the SAAF budget to fly those boeings in local operations, let alone Oryx helicopters etc.

A flight like that must surely cost a lot in fuel, maybe enough to keep 5 Oryx heli's flying in local operations for a day?

:confused:

[Gunship]

Does it come as a surprise that the SAAF is leasing a 747 for the job :E

.... latest rumour .... :*

[Gunship]

At 2100 GMT , Skynews reported that Aristide defected to SA. At 2110 they changed it to Panama that gave him a temporary stay.

[ANVAK]

Don't know whether the arms were eventually shipped, but what do you expect from a president who supported Aristide's celebrations a while ago with a navy flotilla and police helo at your and my tax cost - and even now they're not embarrassed: This am a government spokesman was quoted saying SA was now worried about "democracy" in Haiti. :yuk:

[Douglas Racer]

Ahem, I say, Thabo, old bullet,

Does your definition of mercenary operators happen to include current SAAF pilots supplying arms/ammunition to almost out of power autocrats?

Oh, I forgot, anything you say, goes, legal or not, and I guess you were just trying to "stabilise" things a bit in the Caribbean!

Would've been a complete bollocks-up if your "items of stability" got there a bit late and fell into "rebel" hands, but I guess you thought about that already? Then we could've had innocents being slaughtered courtesy of the good old RSA again, just like in the good old bad old days!

Hey guys, the latest 10 'o clock tea rumour:

"Arisitide to join Bob in Zim? "

Birds of a feather remained firmly glued together? :E

[bluesafrica]

The fact is that you can not do very much with 150 rifles. Neither you need 747 to carry them...
However, it looks that Aristide is on his way to South Africa... today landed to Bangui and the flight will continue south, I guess.
Blues:E

[Gunship]

Pay all your taexes guys ;)

The United States, France and the west African nation of Gabon helped negotiate
Aristide's start in exile here, Mbaye said.
Central African Republic - so cash-strapped that it has been unable to pay many civil
servants' salary here for months - hoped that the international community would help
pick up the tab of Aristide's stay here, the communications minister said.
Earlier, in Antigua, a senior Caribbean official said Aristide told him during a
refueling stop on the Caribbean island that he was bound for South Africa.
In Johannesburg, presidential spokesman Bheki Khumalo cast doubts on reports of
Aristide being headed for South Africa.
"We are still not aware that he is coming here. I would have thought by now we would
have known if he was," Khumalo said.
Western diplomats in Johannesburg also said they had no indication that Aristide was
heading to the country.


Full Story :

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=515&e=1&u=/ap/20040301/ap_on_re_af/ar
istide_exile

[Islander Jock]

The Beeld newspaper reported on Saturday that an South African Air Force Boeing is expected to fly to Haiti on Tuesday with a cargo of 150 R1 rifles and 5 000 bullets.

Never seen or fired an R1 but assuming like most military rifles it has a 30 rd magazine. That is just one full magazine plus a couple of spare rds to throw in your pocket, per wpn.:confused:

Must be a misprint.

[126,7]

Have a look on the news everytime something happens in India or Pakistan. Their troops carry rifles that look similar to the R1. Powerful heavy rifles. 7,62mm calibre. I think the R1 only took 20 rounds per magazine...but dont quote me on that!
Luckilly they were phased out many moons ago and we got the smaller, lighter R4 / R5. They are virtually identical to the israeli Galil. Now that's a nice toy!!

[V1 Rotate]

Considering that Mugabe already hosts (amongst others)Mengistu the notorious Ethiopian mass murderer and now Aristide is on his way. What will happen if Mugabe gets hoofed out?
Will they all come down to be guests of Thabo ? It is also interesting to note that most of the other Carribean dictators are now protesting loudly about the demise of Aristides Government. Do they think they will be next? Will the South African tax payers be forced to support those regimes as well??

V1

[AtlanticWatch]

And only today the news hits the mainline fan! No wonder some reporters keep an eye on Proon.

Shut up AW, U R peeest!

Good evening! (said in perfect Frech)

! :suspect:

I'll be serious now. R1 - 20 rounds 7.62mm (was FN), R 4/5 10 rounds (parade), 30rounds (standard), 50 rounds (You have to be a Loot or up, or in serious shyte) 5.56mm rounds. Smaller, but whay!!! faster. More damage.

And yes. Galil based. Which is.........AK47 based.

Copy is the biggest form of flattery, Mr Kalishnikof (I do not have a MBA in spelling).

But, to get back to the politics (oh no!), fark Mr A. And where he does or does not want to stay. We have more than enough kark to deal with without having to get ourselves getting involved with international politics of this kind.

Another Scotch please!!!

[27Foxtrot]

The R1 was a local development of the British L1A1, which in turn was a development of the Belgium Fabrique Nationale FAL. It had 20 rounds of 7.62x51mm NATO (basically comparable to .308 Winchester).

It was whats comonl;y reffered to as a Battle Rifle, firing a full power, gnerally longer ranged rifle round.

There are 30 round mags available for it, but they are too tall, and prevent you firing the weapon while prone.

The FN FAL design comes in two types, one "metric" and the other "imperial", as you can guess they used two different measurement types to build the weapons.

The newer R4, R5 and R6 were introduced when the 7.62NATO fell out of favour. The Basic R4 design is a virtual clone of the Galil, which is hardly suprising as they were developed together. The R5 and R6 are all variants of the R4 rifle. All of them are chambered in 5.56x45mm (also known as .223 Remington).

While there is a Kalashnikov heritage to the guns, there are quite a few distinct differences. The AK47s fire from an open bolt, the Galil/R4 from a closed bolt. The Galil/R4 also uses a milled reveicer as it is stronger than the AK's stamped receiver.

The Galil/R4/5/6 use 35 round mags.

The R4 is a full assault rifle, with a built in bipod and a folding stock. The R5 has a slightly shorter barrel and also has the folding stock, but lacks the built in bipods. This makes is a much lighter weapon. The R6 is a carbine, mainly seen in the SAPS. It has a very short barrel, folding stock, and is MUCH lighter. All of these are designed for combat at ranges around 300m, 500 MAX. These are the sort of weapons that work well at close range, but their bullets are too light for long range shooting.

I believe the SANDF still uses modified R1's as sniper rifles.

So we basically shipped them 150 out dated Battle Rifles that don't really have much use in a police action.

200 bullet proof vests aren't that much either. They don't say what level of ballistic protection they offer. Level II isn't worth keeping. Our cops use Level IIIA or Level III vests. The Special Tasks Force uses Level III+ vetsts.

27F

[Rhodie]

A man after my own heart, 27 F

although we shoulda given them the old HK - G3's...

not a bad bit of armament in it's own right, but the locals seem to break them very easily and I know we still have a sh1t load around.

I am waiting for the day :mad: when the military here go the same way as the rest of Africa and start carrying AK's around - last time I was in Zim and Namibia, I got cold shivers and VERY nervous just walking around... :mad: again...!!

Ah, well - seems the US is making friends with Gaddafi so we won't have him here to complete the Dictator's duo....

and again - :mad:

[Cardinal Puff]

AK47 operates with a closed bolt. Only commonly used SADF type operating open bolt was the UZI as it had a fixed firing pin. Don't think the LM6 was ever sold to cops or military except for a few Spes Magte models which became R6 when modified full auto. Dunno what the fuss is about full auto as the only people who ever use it are the US military and those who don't bother identifying a target before opening fire.

[27Foxtrot]

Bah, closed bolt. My bad. Thats what happens from posting from memory, at the tail end of a night shift.

And the SAPS definately use LM6's. I was trained on one when I was a Reservist.

They are standard issue for patrol cars operating from local stations here.

27F

[Cardinal Puff]

Only short rifles I saw in use with SAP were R5s and the odd MP5 with specialists. Is it possible you got the two confused? LM 6 was a semi auto civilian version that I believe SM were looking at for future use...

[27Foxtrot]

Nope, it was definately semi automatic. Guess they don't trust cops, or trainee Reservists with fully automatic weapons anymore.

It was definately 5.56x45mm (.223 Rem), not 9x19mm.

It was definately shorter than the R5.

In my books that adds up to an LM6.

The STF use R5's and I've seen R5's around in armouries and carried by cops. But these, we were told, are specifically for patrol car use. I'll ask around.

Maybe get an "official" answer. I'm still busy getting qualified on the "charge desk". Eventually I'll be able to go on patrol, but not yet.

And my station isn't in one of the, ummm, informal settlements like Kayalisha or Gugulethu on the N2, so I don't think we get them.

Will let you know.

27F

[Gunship]

President Thabo Mbeki has "prima facie violated" the constitution by having sent a defence force aircraft to the Caribbean without informing parliament, says opposition leader Tony Leon.

In a press statement, Leon said: "President Mbeki appears to have violated Section 201 of the constitution, which requires him to inform parliament or the appropriate parliamentary oversight committee of any employment of the South African National Defence Force.

"It would now appear that President Mbeki approved the employment of a South African Air Force (SAAF) Boeing 707 to carry arms and equipment for the use of the Haitian Police Force in support of then-president Jean-Bertrand Aristide."

Leon said the employment of this aircraft "was presumably in fulfilment of an international obligation, in terms of Section 201 (2) of the constitution".

The aircraft was reportedly carrying a shipment of 150 R-1 rifles, 5 000 bullets, 200 smoke grenades and 200 bullet-proof vests.

Presidential spokesperson Bheki Khumalo was not immediately available for comment.

Leon said Mbeki authorised the aircraft's mission after having made personal assurances of support to Aristide and to the Chairman of the Carribbean Community, Jamaican Prime Minister P J Patterson.

Leon reported that the SAAF Boeing 707 left South Africa on 29 February 2004 and landed in Jamaica the same day. "It never reached Haiti because of the resignation and departure of Aristide. The SAAF Boeing 707 was sealed by Jamaican customs authorities and guarded by the Jamaican Defence Force until it left Jamaica on 3 March 2004.

"Had Aristide resigned even 12 hours later, or had he stayed and come under armed attack in the early days of March, the SAAF aircraft and any defence force personnel on board could have been directly involved. That would have had serious and negative diplomatic consequences for South Africa."

Leon said his Democratic Alliance (DA) "has established, through contact between DA chief whip Douglas Gibson and the office of the secretary of parliament, that President Mbeki failed to inform the relevant parliamentary oversight committee (in this case, the joint standing committee on defence, or alternatively the portfolio committee on defence) of the employment of the SAAF aircraft within seven days of that employment, as required by the constitution.

"The president is required by Section 201 (3) to clearly state the reasons for the employment, the place where the employment is occurring, the number of people involved, and the duration of the employment," said Leon.

"Moreover, Section 18 (2) (e) of the Defence Act (42 of 2002) requires him to inform Parliament about the expenditure incurred or expected to be incurred during the employment."

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_1498349,00.html

[Cardinal Puff]

...And he's pretty much raped the constitution by conspiring to have a bunch of people arrested outside the RSA where they don't have the protection of SA laws when he could have done it in this country. Then again the average citizen doesn't have the protection of SA law either............. Crime stats manipulated by not logging robberies with a knife as armed robbery, closing cases when nothing has been done, the list is endless :mad: !