View Full Version : Northwest Pilot Shot by Police

12th Mar 2002, 10:18
Although alcohol was probably a factor in this incident, I would not trust many of my colleagues with guns in the cockpit.. .. ._________________________________________________. .. .Law enforcers shoot and kill armed NWA pilot in North Dakota. . . .Associated Press . . . .Published Mar 11, 2002. .LAKOTA, N.D. -- Law enforcement officers shot a Northwest Airlines pilot to death on his front porch here after he fired at them, the Nelson County sheriff says. . .. .Sheriff Dale Quam said Rick Kaseman, 52, came out of his house with a gun in his hand and became increasingly belligerent after Lakota's police chief and sheriff's deputies came to check on him Friday night. . .. ."We just told him we were there to see how he was doing, and he got upset and came with a gun in his hand, and he wouldn't put it down," Quam said. "He raised the gun, pointed it at one of the deputies, and fired one round off. They returned fire." . .. .Kaseman died on his front porch, Quam said. No one else was injured. Lakota is about 60 miles west of Grand Forks.. .. .Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch confirmed today that Kaseman worked as a pilot for the airline, but he declined to say how long he had been employed there. . .. .Quam said he knew of no history of legal or domestic trouble from Kaseman. . .. .The sheriff said one deputy and the police chief fired several rounds, "but they didn't empty their guns." . .. .North Dakota's Bureau of Criminal Investigation is investigating the shooting. Nelson County State's Attorney Terry Devine said a preliminary report indicates both officers acted properly. . .. .Devine said the initial investigation of the shooting indicates Kaseman had a problem with depression, and that alcohol was involved. . .. .It started when a 911 call came in about 8 p.m. Friday, Quam said. . .. .Kaseman's wife, Venetia, and their two boys had gone to a neighbor's home after "some family problem," Quam said. . .. .Lakota Police Chief Jim Klinicke called Quam for help, the sheriff said, and he came with two deputies, Rob Melby and Scott Trenda. . .. .Quam said he was in back, guarding the alley, when Kaseman came out on his front porch and began arguing loudly with the officers. . .. .Devine said a witness, a friend of Kaseman's, told him he saw "two muzzle flashes" from Kaseman's gun before officers fired. . .. .Neighbors said it sounded like firecrackers going off. . .. .The officers fired semiautomatic handguns, as did Kaseman, Devine said. . .. .The Kasemans had moved to Lakota about eight years ago, neighbors said, and had bought one of the biggest and oldest homes in town. The couple spent a lot of time working on the century-old house, and gave tours of it, the neighbors said.. .. .The oldest of the couple's three children, a daughter, is in college, neighbors said. Two boys are in fourth grade and junior high. . .. .Boyd Johnson lived next door until a few years ago. . .. ."We did quite a few projects, working on houses," Johnson said of Kaseman. "He was a very interesting guy, real nice guy. Always working, refurbishing his house when he was home. His biggest hobby was woodworking and working on his house. He was hard worker, that's for sure. . .. ."We were watching TV (Friday night) and thought it sounded like firecrackers going off," Johnson said. "I can't believe it happened. Personally, I think if he wanted to hit the cops, I think he would have. I don't think he would ever shoot anyone intentionally. He was a pretty gentle man." . .. .Neighbors said Kaseman was a native of Gackle and was in the Air Force before he became a private airline pilot. He also volunteered at the fire department, they said. . .. .His wife, a native of England, volunteers on the local ambulance and drives a school bus, neighbors said. . .. .It was the first shooting in Lakota since 1976, Quam said. . .. .<a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/1924182.html" target="_blank">http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/1924182.html</a>

12th Mar 2002, 11:11
Airbubba -. .. .I am not at all happy with your quote ---. .. . "I would not trust many of my colleagues. . with guns in the cockpit.". .. .As a high-milage pax I DO trust my life to the Flight Deck crew every time I board a flight. There are any number of ways that a Pilot could end my individual life on any flight, anytime. EgyptAir, and FedEx, should be some proof of that possibility. If I run into a "crazy" Pilot on a flight - the lack of, or access to, a gun in the cockpit is not going to make any difference.. .. .Your comment above does a DIS-SERVICE to the Pilot community everywhere! . .-dAAvid

Check 6
12th Mar 2002, 12:20
Pilots, like all professionals, come from a "cross section" of society. The human race is not perfect. A little compassion would be appropriate.

12th Mar 2002, 12:54
There should not be any fire arms at home, nor in the cockpit.. .It only makes things worse......

Eff Oh
12th Mar 2002, 14:20
I believe there is a debate going on in JETBLAST about handguns being banned in the UK. This was due to a massacre of 5-6 year old children and their teacher at a school not too far from where I live. I think stories like this prove why it was a sensible decision by the government.. .Eff Oh.

12th Mar 2002, 14:37
What is sensible about taking guns away from law-abiding people. Where do you stop? Joy riders kill people with their reckless driving in the UK. Does that mean we should take cars away from everyone else. The mentality of the nanny state is alive and well. In this man's case, drink was the problem, as it is in so many car accidents, not the gun.

12th Mar 2002, 15:27
Guns in the cockpit and guns in general will generate many strong and diverse views.. .. .Whilst any death is a tragedy, perhaps it was better for the potential crew and pax that this individual had his misjudged moment of indiscretion on his front porch, rather than the front office at 30,000ft.. .. .I can't see any justification whatsoever for guns onboard or in a cockpit.. .A gun is only a defence if the threat to use it is real.. .. .And just to fan the flames, when will the USA realise that the other, more civilised parts of the world, have or are banning or limiting personal small-arms. . .Not in my life-time, I'm sure.

12th Mar 2002, 15:44
Airscrew,. .. . One thing you must realize is that if the US were to ban small arms today, there are literally millions of handguns "on the street" the criminals will not turn them over to the police!! therefore the only people with the weapons would be the criminals! Now, say for instance, we live in a perfect society and all handguns are abolished! what about shotguns and hunting rifles, or aren't hunters allowed to hunt? what would stop a criminal from sawing off a shotgun barrel to fit under his clothes to commit crimes? Americans want to live in a free society, unfortunately the degree of freedom we enjoy has the unfortunate side effects of allowing the bad guys to use these freedoms towards ill will, as 9/11 and some of these shootings display, as we say the price of freedom.

Desk Driver
12th Mar 2002, 16:57
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Although alcohol was probably a factor in this incident, I would not trust many of my colleagues with guns in the cockpit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">You A**hole Bubba! The man was ill!!!!

12th Mar 2002, 18:32
&gt;&gt;You A**hole Bubba! The man was ill!!!! &lt;&lt;. .. .Well, you don't sound too good yourself.. .. .From the article above:. .. ."Devine said the initial investigation of the shooting indicates Kaseman had a problem with depression, and that alcohol was involved.". .. .&gt;&gt;There should not be any fire arms at home, nor in the cockpit. It only makes things worse......&lt;&lt;. .. .In my opinion, the presence of a firearm in the home contributed to the tragic outcome of the incident in North Dakota. It could certainly be argued that the deputies' guns may have saved other lives, however.. .. .Anyway, I do feel that as pilots we are not immune to mental problems and personality disorders. In fact, there is great pressure for us to mask them lest we lose our medicals.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 14:54: Message edited by: Airbubba ]</small>

12th Mar 2002, 19:25
The thing about 99% of people who are anti-gun have never had any training or owned a firearm.. .. .I grew up as a young boy getting my first rifle when I was twelve. Never misused it, because I was trained in High School (Yes, a school course, the Civilian Marksmanship Training Program, still in effect today) and because I used the rifle hunting and learned quickly what it could do to a living creature. (That creature generally tasted pretty good when Mom got thru with it.......). .. .When I returned from Vietnam in 1970 as an Army pilot, I had had enough of firearms. In 1982 I became a charter (One of the first) members of Handgun Control, Inc.. .. .In 1994, while having my mid life crisis, instead of having an Affair I became a part time police officer in a small town in Massachusetts.. .. .Well, my views are different now. Firearms are neccessary for protection. We are just not far enough out of the jungle yet......to rely on societal rules to maintain order.. .. .In the US, firearms are used much more often to prevent crime than to commit crime.. .. .Nowadays, most firearms deaths, at least in New England, are people who choose to commit suicide.. .. .Accidental shootings hardly ever happen, because of requirements to keep firearms locked, either with a trigger lock or a safe. Parents who own a firearm in the house and have that firearm used by someone else should be sent to jail. Although my State doesn't do this, several others do. . .. .I have an very recent article about the banning of firearms in both the UK and Australia. It seems now that both countries have a higher incidence of firearms used in crimes than the US. If anyone wants a copy of it, I'll scan it and send it to you. I think you can pull my email from the board, if not, just ask on this thread.. .. .By the way, I'll bet my fellow JFK pilots Victor Sarancini, Michael Horrock, Jason Dahl, and LeRoy Homer sure wished they had a firearm just before their throats were slit.. .. .It's twenty eight inches from the back of my head to the cockpit door in my 767-300. Police in Massachusetts are authorized to fire their weapons to stop people (In defense of life, not property) if they get within 21 feet of the Officer. I really want the right to defend my cockpit, specially when the U.S Air Force is ready and willing to shoot me down.. .. .If they get in the Cockpit, they will kill you.. .. .If they kill you in your Cockpit, you have abrogated your command responsibility for the safety of your passengers.

B Sousa
12th Mar 2002, 20:05
Good Show A-V-8R........27 Years in Law Enforcement and just about every "Gun Involved" case was NOT a Law Abiding Citizen. . .The Pilot mentioned in this thread must have had some real problems. Its mentioned Alcohol, in which case theres usually and ex-wife somewhere to stir the pot.. .Upon reading the article, it may be deemed "Suicide by Cop" a term we have here for those who cant quite put the gun on themselves.. .Either way, a sad case. His problems are over, but Im sure there are others grieving.

12th Mar 2002, 20:25
&gt;&gt;The thing about 99% of people who are anti-gun have never had any training or owned a firearm.&lt;&lt;. .. .Like you, I'm not in that 99%, I've flown with sidearms in the military.. .. .&gt;&gt;In the US, firearms are used much more often to prevent crime than to commit crime.&lt;&lt;. .. .You may be right but a quick scan of the daily news provides a few counterexamples:. .. .<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/dp/20020312/lo/woman_eatery_victims_of_york_robberies_1.html" target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/dp/20020312/lo/woman_eatery_victims_of_york_robberies_1.html</a>. .. .<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wplg/20020308/lo/1114463_1.html" target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wplg/20020308/lo/1114463_1.html</a>. .. .<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wjla/20020308/lo/fatal_shooting_involving_dc_police_officer_1.html" target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wjla/20020308/lo/fatal_shooting_involving_dc_police_officer_1.html</a>. .. .<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wrtv/20020306/lo/1111690_1.html" target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wrtv/20020306/lo/1111690_1.html</a>. .. .<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/spot/20020312/lo/trial_begins_in_killing_of_officer_1.html" target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/spot/20020312/lo/trial_begins_in_killing_of_officer_1.html</a>

13th Mar 2002, 00:27
sorry, but he raised his gun and fired at armed police officers, - WHAT THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT !. .the fact that he was a pilot has no bearing in this instance whatsoever, bar the fact that he may have been mentaly disturbed which poses the suitability of him as a pilot.

13th Mar 2002, 00:51
A-V-8TOR,. .. .There you go interjecting logic into an emotional discussion! . .. .You have hit the target dead center. . .. .Are you familiar with <a href="http://www.secure-skies.org/" target="_blank">APSA</a> ?. .. .Those that are against pilots being armed have not thought the issue through or are blind to the facts. Between the Mensa members stealing our tweezers at "security", and the future new hire in the F-Teen, there is NO credible defense against a 9/11 type incident (except for the pax, and we see how well they did on that UAL 777). Is it better to have the guns in the cabin with the sky marshalls? If so, WHY? Defending the cockpit is a simple tactical solution. There is one way in. Even with our vault like <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> doors, (which a small amount of plastique would remove instantaneously), selecting old ladies and kids for increased scrutiny and positive bag match, we are very vulnerable. . .. .In the post 9/11 world, had the powers that be done NOTHING but train and arm pilots, we would all be much safer today. We SHOULD be the last line of defense.. .. .Firearms are tools. Like any other tool, they can be misused. (should we ban airplanes, baseball bats, cars, hair dryers etc etc etc........?). The tool serves a specific purpose for which it was originally designed. To make someone STOP what they are doing NOW! Ever try to drive a 16 p nail with a screwdriver? . .. .If you do not trust me with a firearm, then you SHOULD NOT trust me to fly you and your kids through weather that you wouldn't drive a car through.. .. .The tragedy with the NWA pilot would likely have happened in another way had he not had a gun. Depression is a serious illness, and being a pilot, he would be risking his livelyhood had he sought help for it. The sad part is, had he had cancer, he would be taken care of. I know of 2 pilots (one was a friend) who have used suicide as the alternative to the unemployment line.. .. .The knee jerk, reactionist gun bans we've seen in the more "civilized" parts of the world are merely symbolic as far as public safety is concerned. Those that support it have seen too many movies and usually have had no real world experience with firearms. I hope that the sheeple in these "civilized" countries sleep better at night knowing that the criminals are aware that they are unable to defend themselves. . .. .I know I feel MUCH better knowing that the terrorists are laughing at the joke that passes for airport "security" and that they know that I have no means of defense while plying the airways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Flame suit on.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 20:53: Message edited by: Tripower455 ]</small>

13th Mar 2002, 02:51
I feel very sorry for this pilot, his family and for the police officers involved.. .. .None of us know the particular reasons for the poor chap acting this way and I think it is wrong to judge him. Depression is a terrible thing, it can happen to anyone at any time. All that is required is a trigger action, rather like a thunderstorm.. .. .If he didn't have a gun, he would probably have found some other way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Flying Lawyer
13th Mar 2002, 04:08
BOEINGBOY1. .It's obvious you're ANGRY!!!!, but less obvious who or what has made you angry.. .Is it expressions of compassion for a fellow pilot / human being / husband / father who was apparently suffering mental illness and died in tragic circumstances?. .Who's suggested the police could or should have acted differently given the cirumstances they faced?. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

13th Mar 2002, 08:21
He came out on the porch to meet the police while armed with a pistol. He fired at the police. . .. .A clear cut case of suicide.... .. .**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

Send Clowns
14th Mar 2002, 05:50
Eff Oh. .. .It bars no relation at all, an is completely irrelevant to that issue. There is a world of difference between the kean shooter with a firearms cetificate and the mass ownership of firearms.

17th Mar 2002, 10:51
A few cities in the USA have actually passed laws witched required their citizens to have guns. Can anyone of you tell me .... Just one.. example where the crime rate did not go down. Very down. Just one , Only one . ???

17th Mar 2002, 12:44
Polzin, never heard of this.. .Please tell more?. .Modern times?. .Big or small cities?. .Numbers, locations, practicalities??

17th Mar 2002, 14:56
Although personally I think that banning guns from civilians can only reduce the risk of guns being sold freely, so that every kid on every street corner has one.... and that a gun in the aircraft only increases the risk of some wrongdoer getting hold of it, and then do some really bad things.... I think the entire gun-discussion is maybe a little inappropriate here.. .. .I feel very very sorry for this tragic event, most sorry for his children. I hope they cope with it. It does not matter here that the poor guy was pilot or not. It matters that his life ended tragically and that it leaves a lot of damage in his family and neighbourhood.. .. .Also, as already mentioned, I feel sorry as well for the police officers who had to return fire.. .. .P77