Instructing for non-JAA licenses in G-reg aircraft

[EL SID]

Does anybody know if it is legal for someone to instruct in a G-reg aircraft for hire and reward for say a FAA license or rating, if the person does not hold any JAA/CAA license other than a UK PPL?
I would have thoght that this constitutes, at the minimum, aerial work and thus a JAA/CAA CPL should be held?

[DFC]

To instruct in a G registered aircraft, the instructor needs a JAA or CAA instructor rating.

To be paid for providing that instruction, the instructor must have a CPL.

There are also limits to being paid in cartain aircraft with a private C of A.

What also must be remembered is that the pilot must be a JAA or CAA FI to send the student solo.

Anyone doing such training would be trowing their money down the drain because none of it would ever count towards either JAA or FAA training requirements.

With the exchange rate it must be cheaper to go to the US and train for FAA licenses and ratings if one wants one.

Regards,

DFC

[Keygrip]

El Sid - this is one of those read between the lines questions isn't it!!

You need to give us more details- though you say "a JAA PPL" - does the 'instructor' have ANY instructor qualifications from any other ICAO state?

Is the instructor going to be asked to complete the ENTIRE course? Does that course involve any student solo flight?

[EL SID]

DFC/Keygrip thank for your replies

To clarify things on my original posting the reason for asking the question is as follows:
Someone who needed an ICAO license renewed contacted me and it came out in the conversation that this person was working as a FAA instructor here in the UK doing mainly training for the FAA IR. From this the person told me that it was quite legal to do this and that the UK CAA was happy with this situation and that there were a number of around the country where this was happening. The majority of the people receiving the training are people wanting to get FAA IR’s as they don’t have the time to do through the JAA process of exams, and find the FAA IR written to be much more convenient in terms of time. They also do not have the time to go to the US and prefer to get trained in the environment where they will be using their IR. Many already have IMC rating but are frustrated by the not being able to use it outside the UK. Some do it on their own aircraft, but some are getting it so they can ‘rent’ (dry lease) N-reg aircaft. Initially they are doing their training on G-reg aircaft.
I made some other enquires and also saw some web sites where the staff qualifications were shown and it appeared that there are indeed people who are doing it who are only FAA qualified, but I only have it on hearsay that they are doing this in G-reg aircraft. There is one school that does exclusively FAA training, but it appears they only do it on N-reg aircraft and seems to be above board.
Not only is there a licensing situation, but can someone who has a FAA IR operate in IMC, in controlled airspace or do approaches at public airports that have scheduled traffic operating whilst this training is being conducted in G-reg aircaft? As most people will be aware to keep a FAA IR valid requires that one should have done 6 approaches in 6 months or get a sign-off by a another FAA IR instructor so the standard of IR competency may be quite low compared with our own SPA IR’s who need an annual renewal test.
Of course the instructors hold valid FAA CPL & Instructors ratings and some are dual qualified, but there appear to be many instances where they have only the FAA licenses. The other anomaly is that there is no requirement for the FAA training to be carried out from a licensed airfield, as would be the case with the JAA PPL. Furthermore I understand that the UK is now the place to do a FAA license for those countries whose nationals cannot get a visa to train in the US. So there could indeed be the situation where someone maybe sent solo from an unlicensed field, in a G-Reg aircraft by a FAA only, qualified instructor.
This may be a can of worms, or maybe it is not – hence my reason for posting the thread.

[DFC]

If the training is for the FAA IR then ther will not be any SOLO flying required. Thus that problem is solved.

The FAA training requirements for the IR only require a very minimal part of the training to be done with an CFII (15 hours?). Thus under the FAA system, any pilot could act as the safety pilot for the remainder of the course.

I don't think that the FAA requires any of the training to be done in actual IMC or for any actual on airways flights. Thus the training can be completed in VMC and outside controlled airspace.

So provided the training is only for the FAA IR, it may be possible to complete the training with an FAA instructor in a G registered aircraft.

However, the flight training would have to be provided for free unless the instructor held a CAA or JAA CPL, and was an RTF or FTO. No RTF or FTO could make it public transport and then require an AOC.


Regards,

DFC

[Global Pilot]

DFC, in your reply you state"What also must be remembered is that the pilot must be a JAA or CAA FI to send the student solo."

Can a JAA FI send a student pilot solo at any point during the course without refering him/her to the CFI?

[DFC]

A JAA FI can send students on their First SOLO and First SOLO X country and SOLO by night.

An FI(R) can not do the above but can supervise subsequent solo flights while they themselves are supervised by an FI.

The CFI can require that they approve all first solo's in advance regardless of instructor qualification. However, in general the CFI will be happy for an FI to send a student solo without specific permission since that is what they are qualified to do and employed to do.

The point I was making above is that should an FAA student reach solo standard in the UK then the instructor sending them solo must be qualified under JAR. By the same token, if a JAA student is ready for solo in the US, the instructor sending them solo must be FAA authorised.

Regards,

DFC

[Noggin]

"From this the person told me that it was quite legal to do this and that the UK CAA was happy with this situation and that there were a number of around the country where this was happening."

If it is legal, and the "training" is for a FAA licence, why would the CAA even be interested, let alone "happy"?

It would be legal if the instructor also held UK/JAA qualifications or if it were a private flight; who is this benevolent individual who works for nothing? No wonder there are so many threads about instructor pay.

"but can someone who has a FAA IR operate in IMC, in controlled airspace or do approaches at public airports that have scheduled traffic operating whilst this training is being conducted in G-reg aircaft?"

not according to Art 21. Unless they hold the appropriate UK/JAA qualifications as well, or a validation issued by the CAA. Validations may not be issued for flight instruction.

[EL SID]

Thanks to all for their comments and replies. From reading this and other threads in the same vein of licensing issues it would appear that a lot goes on fall outside the concerns of the local authorities in Europe. I understand, unlike in the USA, there is seldom any ‘ramp checking’ of licenses, carried out. Even in France, where it is so attractive to go to do IR approach training, compared with here in the UK, I have never heard of anyone being asked to produce a license, let alone prove that have a valid IR. I know personally someone who regularly does ILS instruction in France for a UK IMC rating and that individual does not have an IR!
So although as DFC quite rightly says persons may not be ‘paid’ for instruction I’m sure there is no way anyone will ever check to find out. It wasn’t too long ago that the majority of Flying Instructors were PPL’s and this did not prevent them from getting paid for instruction! I am aware that AOC work is far better policed, however I doubt whether the CAA has the funds or resources to address this kind of work in the same way they look after the AOC side of things
I also know someone who has his own aircraft (G-reg) who told me he has an FAA instructor (non-JAA licensed) who he meets clandestinely at an airfield in north London (which strictly forbids any training being carried out from other than through one of the resident RTF’s) to do his FAA IR training. Furthermore that they shoot ILS’s at east London airport, mixing it with 737’s from time to time, and that they have been in full IFR from during part of the approach!
I have seen an advert in the popular aviation press for FAA training out of an unlicensed airfield, so QED there cannot be an RTF or FTO that this training could fall under the umbrella of.
Overall I would conclude that what ever the legality of these operations is, that they will continue to flourish. Nurtured no doubt by the strictures or our own ‘beloved’ system, which makes the IR for the PPL a very difficult route to follow compared with the FAA IR.

[2244robby]

A couple of years ago I checked direct with a FSDO in New York about the possibility of training for an FAA ppl in the UK.

I was told that it was possible - it must be with an FAA approved instructor, the flight test must be done with an FAA approved examiner but the craft could be G-registered.

I know of groups who do their biennial flight review here in the UK in G-reg craft but with FAA approved examiners and this is OK.

[Keygrip]

Well, 2244, I would say that the FSDO is wrong.

Training for an FAA rating that is completed outside of the USA does not require the instructor to be FAA rated.

I don't have the book to hand - no doubt somebody will quote the relevant FAR for us shortly.

[chopperpilot47]

The FAR's or CFR's as they are now called talks about an "authorised instructor". That means an FAA instructor. The FAA have no problem with the use of G registered aircraft for instruction. There is an exception for training received from non FAA instructors contained in CFR 61.41. This part says that "a person may credit flight training towards the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
1) A Flight Instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either;
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting state to the ICAO;
2) A flight Instructor who is authorised to give such training by the licencing authority of a foreign contracting state to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
b) A flight Instructor described in para (a) is only authorised to give endorsements to show training given".

This is useful to credit previous flight training received from, for example, a CAA instructor towards an FAA licence. The student will still have to receive the appropriate endorsements from an FAA instructor before taking the knowledge tests, practical tests, qualifying cross countries etc. In other words a CAA instrructor could not give all the required training and simply hand the student over to an FAA examiner for the practical test.

Incidentally, the CAA often grant permission for FAA instructors to instruct on G registered aircraft. Have a look at Pilot and Flyer for those schools who advertise such a service, Cabair is one. The instructor can, of course, be paid for training where such permission is granted.

Regards,

Chopperpilot47

[EL SID]

Chopperpilot47
Your post makes interesting reading, especially the point you make about FAA licensed instructor being able to instruct for reward in G-reg aircraft with sanction from the CAA.
I cannot see anything in LASORS about this, nor in the Regulations unless I missing something. If this is true, it opens up a whole new vista in PPL training.
Here are some of the advantages:
1. National PPL: this becomes obsolete, as the FAA PPL requires a Class 3, which should be identical to the NPPL medical requirements. The FAA PPL has far more privileges than the NPPL, such as one can use it outside the UK as well as one can add an IR to it at a later stage which one cannot to a NPPL.
2. Instructors: People who wish to become instructors should not bother with the JAA complications and expense getting the FAA CPL/IR and CFI is far cheaper and a great deal easier as far as the exams are concerned! Certainly it does not require the 30 hours of flight training and 125 hours of ground school the basic FI(R) requires. There is not the same restrictions on the FAA CFI as far as sending students solo that there is on the JAA FI(R) – you get automatic Night instructor privileges. With the CFII simple add-on one can teach IR, not IMC full IR! After two years you can teach other people to become Instructors, none of this complication to become a FIC Instructor that JAA requires, i.e. CAA interview, loads of hours, FIC course and a flight test with a CAA examiner! Also one does not have to have a Class 1 to instruct, only a FAA Class 3 so much cheaper to maintain the licence! Also to renew your CFI one can do via an internet class, so again much cheaper than the JAA FI renewal process!
3. Licensed airfields and RTF’s: There is no requirement for the FAA PPL etc to train out of a licensed airfield, so a whole range of opportunities open up as far as this is concerned. Also there is no requirement for a FAA CFI to work under the auspices of a RTF so the Instructor can work on their own without having to be subservient to a owner of a Flight school and probably get far better paid than instructors get slaving for the JAA system. Incidentally I understand that FAA CFII’s instructing IR’s get the same rates as Instructors do for the JAA IR, and they also get paid for the ground school part of the lesson as is consistent with their US counterparts.
4. Aircraft: More and more people are getting N-reg aircraft and it makes absolute sense if one owns one, as one can lease it out, have it utilised for instruction. It costs far less to maintain as it would on the UK registry with all the fees for Radio licenses, Airworthiness, annuals and maintenance etc. This should also bring the cost of aircraft use as far as rental and training is concerned.
In summary I would say that unless someone wants to go to an airline and wants solely to become a Flying Instructor, than there is little point in getting involved with the JAA licensing procedure with all that entails and it is considerably more cost effective. I would also suggest that if the PPL marketplace moved towards the FAA rating system it would reduce the amount of hour builders in the marketplace to the benefit of the customer. Also it would mean that that a great deal more people would consider getting an FAA IR in preference an IMC as it is easier to keep valid than the IMC and far more useful!

[Noggin]

FAA instruction in a G Reg aircraft is not a great issue and does not concern the CAA as its not for a CAA licence.

To give instruction in a G Reg aircraft you must comply with the UK Law. If you are dual qualified as an FAA and CAA/JAA instructor no problem but if you do not hold a CAA or JAA instructor qualification it would be difficult to give instruction and comply with the law.

Revalidations are not a great issue as the pilot is licensed and can operate the aircraft using ICAO privileges of whatever licence he holds.

[md 600 driver]

el sid


""Also one does not have to have a Class 1 to instruct, only a FAA Class 3 so much cheaper to maintain the licence

You need to have a cpl before you can get a cfi
a cpl needs a class 2 medical to exercise rights [you dont need to have a class 2 to get a cpl therefore you need a class 2 to instruct

[chopperpilot47]

MD600,

This is one of those apparent contradictions that crop up from time to time. CFR 61.23(a)(iv) says [Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate] when exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate, except for a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating, if the person is acting as the pilot in command or is serving as a required pilot flight crewmember.

In fact, it is possible to instruct without a medical certificate at all, "When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember". In other words if an instructor is training someone for a PPL(H) and they have a PPL(A) then legally they don't need a medical. Wierd or what?

Anyway, to return to MD600's post you only need a class 3 for instruction and can in fact gain any of the licences with a class 3, e.g. you don't need a class 2 to gain a commercial certificate. I know a few people who use a class 3 to give flight instruction.

Regards,

Chopperpilot47

[EL SID]

Thanks Chopperpilot47, I just use a Class 3 in conjunction with my FAA Instructors ticket. The last time I had a Class 1 was in 1999. Since then I just get my AME to issue me FAA Class 3 every couple of years when he does my JAA Class 1, for which he charges me a few quid and that then costs me less than doing the Class 3 in the US by itself.
By the way have you seen the new 'credit card' type licenses the FAA issue? Just got my Instructors license back from having renewed it and it is very nice compared with the old paper one, I like the Wright Bros image on the back - shows some imagination for a change!