Qantas FO's and SO's-Jetstar

[Le Armee de Une]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Time for some action.

If, like me, you are sick of the double standards that are constantly applied in the way that management relates to you, then you must act.

If, like me, you realise that the association that is meant to represent you, hamstrung by the law though it may be, has well and truly dropped the ball on Jetstar to the detriment of the career you thought you had when you joined, then you must act.

If, like me, you realise that a direct fight over Jetstar is not going to happen, then you must act.

Qantas must be made aware of how you feel. Don't expect the association to take the lead in this, or even the captains you fly with, sympathetic though they may be.

You have been told that your entry into Jetstar would "pollute the culture" of that company. You were told that to your faces. That is the statement of arrogance.

People who failed the tests you passed, and others, are now going to slip into the command slot you have patiently waited for. Qantas can dress it up any way they want, but that is the fact.

Record profits, spiralling management bonuses...snouts in the trough the length of the management conga line. And you were told you would "pollute the culture" of the new company.

No Aipa official will ever say what I am about to say...

The Company needs to know exactly how you feel in the only way it will filter through... via the bottom line.

Some options are open to you.

Recency. Don't take any sectors, and if you do, don't record them.

Extensions. Do I have to spell it out?

Punctuality. Make sure you dot the I's and cross the t's of every departure.

Make no mistake, A good FO is an asset to his company. A p1ssed off FO, has the ability to get his point across.

No doubt the inhabitants of Waynes World will try a bit of intimidation on for size. Now is the time to be strong and stand up for yourselves. Only you can lead this fight. Sympathetic captains, once FO's themselves, will support you.

Take this post and email it to your mates. this is your fight. The more soldiers to the battle, the better.

Le Armee de Une?

[Capt Fathom]

What the...!
English translation is...? :confused:

[Pimp Daddy]

What the...!
English translation is...?
I should have applied to Impulse?

[LetsGoRated]

"An army of one" That famous American pilot??:ooh:

[Keg]

AIPA urged us to read this. It's all been said before on PPRUNE. Here it is again for us all to dwell on.


Raising the Bar

By Capt. Mark A. McClain, Northwest Master Executive Council Chairman
Air Line Pilot, January 2004, p.9

The past 2 years have been a trying time for airline pilots and our profession. The economic recession that began before 9/11 opened a window of opportunity for airline managements to reduce the number of pilot jobs and to successfully drive many pilot groups into concessionary contracts.

Fortunately, the economic recovery is closing this window of opportunity.

Unfortunately, pleading a bad economy is not the only tactic management can use to erode our many years of successful collective bargaining.

One of managements’ favorite negotiating tactics, one that has been used since the birth of collective bargaining, is to "whipsaw" pilot groups against one another, seeking out the lowest bidder. E.L. Cord used it against Century pilots in the 1930s, and airline managements use it today.

Here at Northwest, management has tried to pit Northwest system pilot groups against each other by allocating jobs and aircraft to different airlines within the NWA family. Management tried to whipsaw Mesaba pilots against pilots at Northwest and Pinnacle (formerly Express Airlines I) during contract negotiations in the 1990s and is now trying to pit Pinnacle and other pilot groups against pilots of Mesaba during the Mesaba pilot negotiations. Indeed, "fee-for-departure carriers" in every airline brand are being forced to "bid" for continued or expanded codeshare opportunities.

If we ever allow ourselves to enter into bidding wars to gain management promises (which turn out to be empty), we undermine our own ability to negotiate increases elsewhere. Managements will continue trying to force pilots to underbid each other. That is happening, as I write, at carriers where pay is already far too low and working conditions are intolerable.

The only way we can combat these whipsawing tactics is to "hold the line" and uphold the integrity of our profession. Maintaining the highest standards is important for all of us, because a system in which we undercut each other takes us nowhere but down. Together, we have to use our collective resolve to help each other so that we don’t have any "lowest bidders." The integrity of the air travel system depends on experienced employees, not on the cheapest option available.

As a Northwest pilot, I believe that we must support the bargaining efforts of our affiliates to achieve the highest standards possible within their ranks, because the lower the bar is set, the farther we have the potential to fall. Too often at the bargaining table, management has told me that "pilots are willing to fly for less." This needs to end. We must look at the long term and stop the erosion in the quality of jobs in our profession.

The airline industry has changed. In the past, a professional pilot’s career would often start at a small air carrier where he or she would stay for a few years to get the experience necessary to move on to a larger carrier. My career followed this "typical" path. I began flying BE-18s and DC-3s at Skyway Airlines. After its bankruptcy, I flew 5 years at Britt Airways (now Continental Express), flying BE-99s, Metroliners, and Fairchild FH-227Cs. I was then hired by Republic, which merged with Northwest in 1986.

In today’s environment, this career progression is much more difficult to achieve. For many pilots, jobs at smaller carriers may well be career jobs. Many professional pilots who want to move to a larger carrier are finding that those opportunities do not exist and that they will spend a large portion of their career at smaller carriers. This is another reason why the bar needs to be raised.

This change in the airline industry propels us to rethink not only our career paths, but also those of pilots of other airlines. Flying opportunities should be allocated equitably throughout an airline family and that career progression should be maintained to the extent possible. We also need to enhance furlough protection for current members so an airline cannot furlough pilots from one carrier and then hire cheaper pilots at an affiliate.

We need to recognize each others’ contributions to a common system and maintain the highest standards for all pilots. Airline managements need to recognize a reasonable career path progression for pilots of affiliate carriers, and likewise affiliate carrier managements must recognize encroachment concerns pilots have of what has been historically large-carrier flying.

Managements have purposefully tried to create conflict among us to extract economic gain for themselves. This will continue unless we decide, as a collective whole, not to underbid our colleagues and to uphold the integrity of our profession. Capt. Dave Behncke and Century pilots fought this battle 70 years ago, and all pilots must continue to fight it today. The cyclical nature of our industry is not something we can control, but low-balling our fellow pilots is.


Just thought I'd post that out of interest! :D It was taken from here. (http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewAnnDocument.aspx?DocumentID=3315)

[slamer]

A Union is just that!...."A Union". Un-sanctioned, lone calls to "Mutiny" or "Work to rule" outside the Association will find you in the Sh1t ! What you need now are cool heads. If things are not going in the direction you want "Get involved" to make change.

KEG Excellent post/reproduction, havent read that before.

2 Questions, hope someone can answer

1/ Does the Assoc (Mainline Qantas) have ANY kind of Scope clause in it's contract? (I think I already know the answer to this!)

2/When was the last time Mainline Qantas Pilots issued or carried out any Industrial Action and what was the Issue?

Thaxs

[Le Armee de Une]

1. N0

2. 1966


Un-sanctioned, lone calls to "Mutiny" or "Work to rule" outside the Association will find you in the Sh1t !

Tell that to the City-rail drivers.

Le Armee de Une

[bonvol]

All good stuff from Cpt McClain.

Since AIPA wholeheartedly agree with this it begs the question as to why they previously blindsided the impulse people and now want to cuddle up to them?

Well, of course its a rhetorical question and it shows our hypocracy. If AIPA can pull this out of the fire it will be the greatest comeback since Lazarus.

[Arbey8]

Quality piece.

I hope it leads to another strike or 'mutiny' like the dispute. All the arrogant FO's get dumped, all the Captains eventually retire and the SO's and GA boys get their chance.

Its been 15 years so why not rebel, rebel.

[Wiley]

The only way we can combat these whipsawing tactics is to "hold the line" and uphold the integrity of our profession. The “line” you refer to was comprehensively NOT held fifteen years ago, both by AIPA, who decided the domestic pilots’ fight was not theirs, (when the proverbial Blind Freddie could see that it was), and by those domestic pilots (now your senior colleagues in QanDom), who chose to cross it.

The situation is not irredeemable, but thanks to the inaction of the former group and the shameful actions of the latter, (yes, shameful, and the passage of time does not alter the fact one iota), younger pilots like yourselves are starting from a about twenty rungs lower down a very slippery ladder of career protection / progression.
Managements have purposefully tried to create conflict among us to extract economic gain for themselves. This will continue unless we decide, as a collective whole, not to underbid our colleagues and to uphold the integrity of our profession. To the first sentence of the above quote, I feel I should add ‘very, very successfully’. As for the second sentence, I really wish I could be more optimistic about the outcome of this, but you only have to read an imbecilic post like the one I quote below from to see what an uphill struggle you have. I hope it leads to another strike or 'mutiny' like the dispute. All the arrogant FO's get dumped, all the Captains eventually retire and the SO's and GA boys get their chance. The vast majority of pilots who were not directly involved in the events of 1989 seem not to have learned anything from what happened then. The same cannot be said of Management. The fact is, 1989 proved without a shadow of doubt to Management that there will always be enough individuals - (I can’t bring myself to call them ‘men’) - like Arbey8 within the pilot ranks who will see short term advantage for themselves in any situation like this.

What’s that? 330 words which could be paraphrased in four - ‘I told you so.’

[proplever]

I hope all you Impulse Pilots read Keg's article. You have collectively taken a gigantic dump in your own nest.

Arbey 8, it's a very great pity that no-one has taken a giant dump on you, mate. You deserve it.

[Pete Conrad]

QF pilots polluting the culture of Jetstar?? That would be the day!! The culture at Impulse speaks for itself, prostitutes, prostitutes and more.

Nice attempt at the Peet Conrad thread Thumpa, you only have a collective band of stems at VQ to get support - the rest of the industry sees you for what you guys really are.

[Sonny Hammond]

Ironically, a lot of the QF pilots that would be pollution are from regionals, which have exactly the culture they are striving for.

Yet more spin from the doctors.....:yuk:

[proplever]

I'd be interested to hear from you DJ guys out there. What's your opinion? Do you think this won't effect you? Does VB management intend to cut your wages too in order to achieve a cost base similar to Jetstar?

[hoss]

Be very careful with your words Sonny. Yes, a lot of QF Regional Pilots would love the opportunity to fly for Jetstar. The reference to 'pollution' has me confused, could you please elaborate.

[fartsock]

Right,

A few salient points

Armee is spot on.......work to rule.

Drew R..., Oldmedow and the rest of the HR / IR anti-pilot cabal in QF think of pilots in terms of absolute contempt - we all should return the favours. QF is about ground gripping blunts who hate pilots now, the sooner we all realise it the better.

Second. The impulse pilots are scabs, now and forever end of story.........never forget it when you run into one of these bastards down the track in the near future.

Third. I personally have had a gutfull of whinging regional pilots on Qrewroom and this forum. If you believe you have been discriminated against, sue QF, go through selection or get a job with EK, Cathay or Dragonair but regardless, shut TF up and stop carrying on like 10 year old children

Here endeth the lesson.

PS

Keg - stop sucking up to the company mate - it will get you nowhere.

regards


FS

[blueloo]

Pollution was how Dixon referred to the QANTAS pilots at the SGM.


I think he should use a mirror and see a big fat greedy pig rolling around in bonus's whilst he screws everyone else, ruins an airline through cost cutting and at the same time and maybe more importantly ruins a national icon too.

[bitter balance]

What do you see in that mirror Blueloo?

[blueloo]

The mirror cracks when I look, how bout you ?

[Watchdog]

FARTsock,

1. define the word 'scab' ? - as it applies to the industrial relations topic?
2. explain to me how impulse pilots would therefore be labeled scabs?

ps. I was around in '89 when there were scabs(strike breakers)....were you? :suspect:

[cunningham]

Qantas is starting to sound awfully like OZ G.A with jets. An absolute sh*t fight to see who can do the job for less. Thoughts go out to all involved. Hang in there troops.

[Chilli Muscle]

Am curious about the situation at Virgin which lowered the bar in this country in the first place and set the benchmark for QF.

Is it not some of the 89 ers themselves that accepted the conditions at Virgin. Given that these guys will probably be out of the game within 10 years have they not some responsibility for the current situation.

[Kaptin M]

Divide and conquer

"United we stand, divided we fall" - I'll bet Oldmeadow has this wallpapering his office, and the song piped through the speakers day and night.
As unpalatable as it might seem to some on both sides, until the 2 pilot groups {QANTAS & QANTAS Lite) unite and start working together towards one common goal, then QF HRD are going to screw ALL of you - mercilessly.

[*Lancer*]

We could all work for free to built up that valuable jet experience!! :8

[vigi-one]

Fartsock i cannot comment on Qroom as i dont have access to it but thought the regionals have been rather quiet on this. What bought this attack on?

[LetsGoRated]

Poor old prop & Pete, trying to come to terms with the fact that the games up. Too late in the day now chums. Missed out on QF, VQ and now DJ........ NO MORE OZ JET JOB FOR YOU BUDDY!!!
Don't despair, you can always hock your pc's and buy a YAK40. Then maybe you could find an exceedingly patient instructor to train you as SO's on your own operation. (Private ops of course)Just trying to help you divert some of that pent up anger and frustration towards an endeavour that might actually give you a better quality of life, you know some closure. Keep your chin up prop & Pete, after all you've got each other and you're both still breathing.....right?
ps: When are you two getting married again, do I get an Invite? :ok:

[Jetsbest]

blue-loo,

I was at the SGM too and I don't recall Dixon saying 'Pollution'. I remember an AIPA member expressing annoyance that, apparently, Mr Joyce had said that he didn't want 'mainline attitudes polluting Jetstar'... a point side-stepped by Dixon and/or AIPA President.

Just the facts... as I heard them.

[MoFo]

Arbey8.

History lesson sonny.

Those people resigned, they didn't strike. Thats how they "lost" their jobs. They were not sacked.

Read up on it.

[bonvol]

Who are we to talk about scabs FS. We've got scabs in our own committee!

[scud_runner]

Maybe AIPA need to find out whose side the previous president was really on!! His rapid jumping from one side of the fence to the other certainly raised a few eyebrows!! Could you imagine the president of the ACTU leaving his job then going to work for a company whose employees he used to represent from the other side of the fence??? No conflict of interest there!!!!

[bonvol]

Yeah, dead right SR. One of my old chestnuts this.

And its not just one president but two.

Where will the current Pres be in a couple of years time ?? I don't know, but based on the career progression of a couple of recent incumbents one has to wonder.

[Kaptin M]

Past presidents of pilots' unions being "cherry picked" for company management positions seems to be a "time-honoured" progression of career.
The pre-'89 Ansett was a fine example, however the "Oscar" had to be awarded to "Judas" L. Coysh, who was the primary Industrial Relations Officer for the AFAP for many years before being bought out by Ansett a few years prior to the Dispute, and subsequently placed in charge of F/A's....the fox in the chicken coop (resulting in his subsequent "demise").
Not that it did them an ounce of good having him.

The difference with (most) pilots' unions - which the companies don't seem capable of understanding - is that most pilots are generally anti "union", in the blue collar sense of the inferred definition.
So picking past presidents, I.R.O's, or whatever, to join the company staff, won't give the Company any more insight into the general thinking and future possible direction of the overall pilot body, than it would, had they picked any other line pilot, imo.
Pilot unions are generally far less inhibited (as far as industrial action is concerned), and less predictable than the average union.

In fact, the past office bearers that Ansett chose pre Dispute to advise them, probably worked more in OUR (the pilot body's) favour, than the company's, as these guys' heads swelled to such an extent that they fed the company utter b.s. to try to maintain their positions.

Industrial action is usually undertaken because it is the WILL of the majority of the pilots - not because it is an edict that has been passed on down to the masses by some "executive body", and that must be blindly adhered to.

(BTW, my uncle [the youngest B707 skipper in QF] who was a checkie, and later became a recruiter - was involved in the 1966 strike, in case you're wondering why I have an interest in what's going on with you guys).

[qfpaypacket]

For all Qantas mainline pilots reading this.

Army of One is right. The company doesn't give two hoots about our careers they just want to reduce cost. That being the case I propose everyone just suits themselves and don't go out of your way to help the company out at all.

More fuel is easier.
Less duty is easier.
Being thorough and taking your time is safer.
Not going to work when you fell tired is safer.

Now who can argue with that.

Until the company sees some value in having us onside they will keep rolling us on everything, so we've just got to stop cooperating. This is all we've got left. AIPA has been proven to be useless and ineffective in the last six months on jetstar/jetconnect/accomodation/MDC. Its time to take matters into your own hands and stop complaining.

[Kaptin M]

"Army of One" is, imo. a little outmoded in some of his thinking.
Realistically, aircraft operating costs run far in excess of fuel costs. The company's schedules are built around the maintenance availability - non-availability - of the aircraft.

The ONE thing that really seems to have a DIRECT affect on the beanies, is SCHEDULE.
You can fly according to SOP's til the cows come home..stick on extra gas...fly at higher/lower FL's to burn extra gas....and they really don't care.
After all. we're just bus drivers! (and some 'buses are more expensive to run...burn more...than others.).
But the ONE thing they rely on 'bus drivers to do, is to keep SCHEDULE.

Fu@k with their schedules (= inconvenience to pax), and they squeel like stuck pigs!!

Edit
For those who haven't seen it, here it is:
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money?Ebut this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One?End I'm not alone!

[Watchdog]

scud runner,

actually I recall the president of the ACTU becoming the Prime Minister of Australia (Bob Hawke)....:ooh:

[Chocks Away]

Good stuff Kaptin M, I'd forgotten about that passage.:ok:
It's not a recent monologue (from memory?) but certainly has pertinence today in Australia.
I shall cut it there, as I don't want to get on a soap box...

Keep the blue up:}

[proplever]

As is usually the case Lets Go, you are wrong. Can't speak for Pete, but I work for your parent organisation. I believe that Pete does too. Why do you think we are so annoyed at you?

Actions speak louder than words, Lets go. Play the man if you like. But rest assured, almost all QF mainline pilots have the same dim view of you and your comrades.:ok:

[Otto2]

Don’t take more fuel.
Take what the company wants you to take. Then if you don’t have the required reserves 14 hours down track, you divert (a very fatiguing process) and go to the pub.
Company flight plan fuel not a drop more.

[FatEric]

Ahhh, the famous CO document. Re-written with a name change, Gordon replaces Frank.

Except back in the eighties, the pilots of CO were being paid substandard industry wages (about half), were flying aircraft that were of questionable safety (illegal machine shop mods for example - charged with maintainance fraud)) and were watching CO and Texas Air treading a fine line with regards to industrial law - often crossing that line. It was Frank's stated intention to "break those Fxxxxxx pilots". He frequently threatened to sack union reps and occasionally did. His office was gaurded 24 hours by armed security.

Now, are we really going to apply the intent of that document to the situation pilots working for Qantas are now facing?

[LetsGoRated]

Yeh sure prop, as if QF would employ the likes of you, Second Officer Frustration!! "Play the man" Take a good hard look at YOURSELF & your posts over the last few years, you are the master!! Must be a laborious task, lugging all this obsessive loathing of Impulse pilots around in your twisted mind. (even before the QF days, let alone Jetstar) Oh well, guess we all have our peculiarities. QF pilot indeed!! Nice try pal.
Au revoir frustrated little angry man!!;)
Btw: "Parent organization"? We are all organizations within the Qantas Group of companies (mainline included). Wow!! You seem to have formidable grasp on the workings of my "Parent organization". The basics that a REAL QF pilot would know.

[proplever]

Seven posts, and nothing to offer. Bye LetsGo.

Have a nice day!:yuk:

[Keg]

Be nice if we could move beyond the 'you're a scab', 'well you're an idiot' type of discussion and focus on the real issues. Impulse drivers had a pretty big gun put to their head. As many crash comics will show, people do things that perhaps they wouldn't normally do when placed under extreme stress and without the full information. Lets move beyond that.

What has happened up until Dixon announced Jet* is water under the bridge. Yeah, AIPA should have been more on the ball a few years ago (and that includes all of us including the rank and file- notwithstanding that I KNOW that some of the rank and file raised the issue of industrial coverage for VQ and regional drivers with the then AIPA pres in June '01). We can keep saying 'aw shucks, we stuffed up, woe is us' or we can move forward and right the wrongs. We can make the company 'pay' but that doesn't address the real issue. We can keep calling each other names but we all know that if we DON'T get our act together that in ten years time someone will happen along and offer wages less than VQs and DJs. And then ALL of us curent crew are stuffed.

Let's get over '89. Sure, let's learn the lessons and never forget how and why it occurred but let's MOVE FORWARD from that for ALL of our benefit. What we need now are visionaries who are prepared to move ALL of our causes forward TOGETHER; not idiots who's first resort is to cast stones at the respective pilot groups. Fair dinkum I weep for the image of pilots in Australia at times. It's no surpise that the companies have us with our backs to the wall when we can't even discuss the issues anonymously in a civil manner.

Sorry if some feel I'm being overly 'righteous' and feel that may be 'pathetic'. I just call it how I see it. :ouch:

[Capt Claret]

Excellent post Keg.

From where I sit, AIPA hasn't wanted to take any pilots other than QF under their umbrella. BUT, they want those they won't represent to forgo opportunities that present, simply because the job is perceived as a QF job.

The reality AIPA, is that the job belongs to whom ever management pays. If AIPA want to protect their jobs, become a union or association of aviation professionals, representing all aviation professionals, then, you'll have the bargaining power to achieve your goals.

[Spad]

AIPA has been proven to be useless and ineffective in the last six months In the last six months?? QF pilots signed what amounted in the long term to a death warrant to their professional careers (along with the careers of every Australian domestic and GA pilot as well) when they broke away from the AFAP to form AIPA. Disaster didn’t strike overnight after the formation of AIPA, but over the last 20+ years, like Chinese water torture, management throughout the industry has been able to erode conditions to their current state in a ‘drip by drip’ fashion using divide and conquer tactics that would never have worked against a united pilot force. And this is thanks in large part to the people who broke away from the AFAP to form AIPA.

Those who think this is too simplistic, ask yourselves what would have happened if we had had a single, united pilot group in 1989. At the very best, the situation would never have been allowed to degenerate into the fiasco it became because Ansett (and to a lesser degree, Australian Airlines) ‘management’ would never have dared to adopt the brinkmanship mode of management they followed to purposely precipitate what became known as the Pilots’ Dispute. At the worst, a united pilot group would have forced management to the negotiating table within days, and commonsense – on both sides of the table – may well have prevailed.

The only way we’re ever going to recover even half of what we one had is to follow the well documented but incredibly difficult path Dick Holt led the pilot group through back in the 60’s. To do so again today would not be impossible, (despite what many heroic individuals within today’s pilot ranks would say to the contrary), but it would be difficult, even with a totally united pilot workforce, which you only have to read this thread to see we do not have.

Realistically, it will be extremely difficult thanks to the large number of ‘heroes’ (and, from the comments of some I read here, wannabe heroes) within our ranks.

Unfortunately, thanks in large part to the mistakes made by the pilot group as a whole in the not too distant past, those heroes are with us, along with the potential heroes who see individual blacklegging or undercutting a group of pilots’ wages or conditions claim as a ‘clever’ way of gaining employment or a quick promotion, and management will take full advantage of this.

If we Australian pilots are ever to succeed in dragging ourselves from the industrial abyss we’ve sunk into in recent years, we’re going to have to form a united front again or be doomed to sink even lower until this profession won’t be worth pursuing. So, for a start, quite a few of us are going to have to put a stop to this patently silly “Impulse versus Mainline” and ‘my **’s bigger than your’s is’ rubbish.

PS: I hadn’t read Keg’s post when I wrote the above. I have to admit he’s said what I was trying to say far better than I did. Maybe it’s time AIPA sat down with the AFAP and talked (re)amalgamation. Everyone would have to compromise, but the end result would be an organization that represented us all, which would have to be for the better. I can’t see this happening unless a majority of AIPA members demand it.

[oicur12]

People such as spad are willing to point fingers at QF pilots, or Impulse pilots, or returnees or anybody in order to aportion blame for what some see as the "abyss" facing the Australian airline industry.

This may give him a warm feeling inside attaching such a simplistic label to an extremely complex set of circumstances - but achieves very little.

Attempting to emulate a strategy employed back in "the sixties" highlights how out of touch some folk are with business dynamics now at play.

QF is competing in a global market where capital flows from one business into the next across national boundries in a way that did not occur when the AFAP had centre stage. The industry in Oz could afford to run without the influences of the wider market.

This is no longer the case. Dixon is driven by shareholder return and nothing more.

The bottom line is that the industry is changing, capital markets are changing, passenger demands are changing and to think that pilots have a hand in stopping this is absurd.

This issue is much bigger than what union you belong to.

[Kaptin M]

A nice post, Keg - it basically says something that a wise old Captain said to me years ago, after I stuffed up an approach and had to make a go-around. My profuse apologies to him were met with the reply, "I don't drive with my nose stuck in the rear view mirror."
Good advice. Learn from the past, but don't linger on it to the extent that what's ahead of you becomes less important than what is behind.

Unfortunately Oz aviation was introduced to wholesale "scabbery" in the '89 Dispute. But to put things into perspective, it took the airlines some 5 or 6 months to achieve ONLY a 22% scab rate.
Putting that another way, 78% of the (4) companys' original pilots BELIEVED within themselves that they had a just and right reason in trying to have their employers reconsider.
Of that 22%, well over 1/2 occurred after 4 months.

I would imagine that any "inherent weaknesses" within QF would probably be within a similar range.
No comfort for a management who decides to take the group head on!

And so looking FORWARD, young Keg, my opinion is that you need to unify the QF pilot group.
In a word - INTEGRATION with all QF pilot groups, or at least a unilateral agreement between all the pilot groups as to how you can all "slot in".
As unpalatable as it will seem in the short term, I believe the medium to longer term advantages will be worth the short term pain.

I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with Spad, wrt amalgamating the AFAP and AIPA. Quite frankly, with my scant industrial relations knowledge, I don't see any advantage right now in joining up.
QANTAS needs to get their own house in order through the auspices of AIPA, and the Federation needs to secure the ground it has.
But that is only my opinion.

[Sonny Hammond]

Kegs right.

Lets move on. Otherwise in a year we'll be here whinging about the next 'issue '.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Ahh, petes back. How is "Asia" matey. Thank goodnes you are here to tell us what is actually happening in the industry.

The initial post on this thread shows the arrogance of the seemingly " self elected reps for mainline drivers".

I certainly wouldnt want to be seen to be represented by the likes of these people.

[Wiley]

oicur12, any reader of pprune over the years knows exactly where you stand on the issue of blacklegs, so your protestations at Spad’s rather temperate comments sound a bit thin to me. Your reaction is a perfect example of what’s wrong with us pilots as a group. Rather than READ what Spad said, you go into a kneejerk reaction (the classic “reload and fire” reply rather than actually listen that they tell us about in CRM lectures).

Everyone should take a look at what Spad actually said. I can’t fault his logic. The AIPA split from the AFAP was the first crack in the wall of airline pilot solidarity in Australia and no one should take offence at that assertion. The people who made that decision are all surely long retired by now, so why don’t those of us still in the industry accept this FACT, put it behind us and try to deal with the FACT that things have gone downhill for airline (and GA) pilots in Australia ever since?

AIPA is and always has been a company union, with all that that implies, and you only have to look at the number of AIPA leaders who have gone on to become management pilots within QF to see the obvious shortcomings of a company union.

I have to disagree with you, Kaptain M, and side with Spad on the question of amalgamation. I agree there’s probably no short term advantage, but maybe it’s time we all looked at the long term situation, or, as Sonny Hammond so wisely puts it, we’ll all be doomed to be arguing for eternity about whatever the current ‘big issue’ of the day is – among and against ourselves – as management sits back and rubs their hands together in glee.

… and as we and our working conditions go the way of train drivers – or worse – down the proverbial gurgler.

[Kaptin M]

Perhaps an affiliation between the AFAP and AIPA would - imo - be more practical in today's climate, than the "1 out, all out" type of organisation we had prior to 1989.
My feeling is there would be greater personal pressure on upper management to resolve any serious dispute before it got to the stage of stopworks. Any individual company that had its services disrupted, or stopped, is immediately going to start losing market share to the competition, which will directly affect the bonuses of those who are most empowered to resolve the problem(s).
That is basically why I'm in favour of seeing AIPA, and the AFAP, concentrate on consolidating those under their individual umbrellas.

AIPA is and always has been a company union, with all that that implies, and you only have to look at the number of AIPA leaders who have gone on to become management pilots within QF to see the obvious shortcomings of a company union. Sorry to pick you up on this one, Wiley, however one only had to look at who held manager positions (eg. RFM's, Deputy RFM's) in the old Ansett and TAA and you would find a swathe of past AFAP office bearers - it seemed that it was almost a tradition!
Without a doubt, some of the "slimebags" saw the Federation as their stepping stone to a Company desk job.

[Flying Ninja]

Soooooohhhh are you counting yourself as part of the 22%
KAP ?
You ought to.

I like the amalgamation idea between the AFAP and AIPA so that WEEEE ( he includes himself I suppose ) can exert pressure on management.
QF guys you had better watch out for " Red Necks " like Kap
He was one of the ones who's stand over tactics pushed everybody into the dispute. Yet when he tried to go back after
he knew it was all over ( nice of you to forget to tell those on picket lines Kap ) he was rejected because he had made a A--e of himself. Now a real man would accept that. Kap decides that he has suddenly had a change of heart after thinking about what he had" done to his friends, fellow unionists and their families".He tells us that he went and withdrew his application.
Everybody who went back thought long and hard about that for weeks before they went in, Kap. They spent their sleepless nights and tried to go against what they believed was the right thing for them to do. Having done that they accepted the consequences of the decision that they made.
Did you Kap ? No, you come up with the " I withdrew my application after I saw the light " and was rejected because you were , are and always will be a "Red Neck"
No professional comander ( as you claim to be ) would act first and think about it later when the stakes are so high.
You can't be a little bit pregnant.
Lets's not forget what you told the ground staff. "We are going to F---K 'em "
QF boys don't listen to the ravings of this lunatic because he will sink you even if it in some way just helps him deal with the grief that he made the wrong decision .
Anyone who is angry about 89 is not happy with the decision that he made and wants to blame others.
How about that Kap or should I say KRAP!

[stable approach]

Here we go again.
An interesting thread get's hijacked by some idiot with the same old crap.
Some interesting opinions are being offered in a decent manner and in steps the Flying Ninja to launch a personal attack against Kaptin M, with the amazing revelations that we've all heard a thousand times.
New name and first post, but the style and content sound awfully familiar.
The events of 14 years ago have relevance to this discussion, as has been said by several posters. Why can't that be discussed in an intelligent manner without the personal attacks?

[dingo084]

Stable approach asks

Why can't that be discussed in an intelligent manner without the personal attacks?

Perhaps because many of these attacks come from people still fuming and grumbling into their beers about somebody or other taking "their" jobs (that they quit), feining (sp) indignation and the affront of it all.

Long ago any form of rational discussion disappeared to be replaced by personal attack, vitriol and one eyed self righteousness. I'm not saying the views are not valid, just that they come across as the same tired old arguments and do not add to the clarity of the lessons that can be learned.

Human nature being what it is means I suppose that this will go on till the last of the involved depart.

d

[LightItUp]

I find it amusing how some of you guys still want to bitch about the impulse guys but then your pilot body is doing everything they can to secure one third of the future job positions at Jet*.
I would like to remind you guys that even if management approve the proposal for you guys coming in at the bottom of their senoirity list that the impulse pilots have the last vote on wether they want it to go ahead or not. So go ahead and keep bagging them and ruin it for the rest of the mainline pilots.

Lets face it, you don't need to be an analyse to work out that mainline domestic is screwed. Everyone can tell the reason why they are screwed is by their own making. The belief that only a Qantas pilot can fly a jet. What a joke.

The only way to better the situation is to get everyone united. Wether GA, regional, domestic or international all need the one banner. Strength in numbers, conquer and divide; we've all heard it before.

Lets hope the impulse guys can over look some of the crap that is written by only a few guys and see the benifits of a united group.

As for you P.Conrad you remain a tosser and it is you and people like you who have done the most damage to the industry over the years. Do the rest of us a favour, swallow your hate and die...

[Pete Conrad]

Light it up - chill it out, or the left hand due to your own stroking will cause you to light it up - it's simple really, QF pilots do know how to fly a jet - they got there on their merits - not being the pilots that everybody else rejected. Impulse are there but by the grace of god - FACT.

As for the notion that QF pilots will ruin the culture at Jet* - well thats an intellectual comment isn't it???........ QF pilots could do one thing to Jets* - better it by making it safer.. FACT.

Still it's nice to see all you jaded into working for less and shafting mainline.Hope you can all hold your heads high.

[Flying Ninja]

"A personal attack", on the great and powerful Captain M , the Wizard of OZ himself.
Never!!!!!

Don't forget he never passes up a chance to put in his BS. Fiqures of 22% of this or 78% of that or wholesale , what did he call it?

This Charlie puts himself on a pedestal and likes to comment and give advice on too many areas, industrial relations being his perceived forte'. Look at his industrial relations record , all spades!
I did not set out to hijack the thread, just to try and warn people about this looney. To put the Australian flag on his title is an insult to the country. It should be ... KKK

The other reason is because I work with this Gallah and I am just sick and tired of hearing this BS.
The best thing he can do is bite his tongue, swallow his pride or keep foot in place and not reply.
What will he do?

[34R]

Based on the derailment of this thread you guys have as much chance of pulling together on a united front as the world has of seeing a peace agreement in the middle east. You cant even agree to disagree!

[Kaptin M]

"This Charlie.....industrial relations being his perceived forte'."

Interesting - I'd always considered it to be tropical fish.
Anyway please continue, the therapeutical value obtained in releasing all of that pent-up frustration must be doing you some good - but not as much as you'd get from visiting a shrink.

...and after that brief interruption from our sponsors, we return to our programme. :D

[adair]

And you guys think your mature enough to command an aircraft.

As you can see I haven't been following pprune for long but if this is the level of maturity of our captains and future captains in the airline industry I am deeply concerned.

Any wonder management is running rings around you. I'm sure they are reading this everyday laughing their heads off. They're never going to take you seriously until you start behaving seriously and use your heads.

[Dexter]

hay, your dead rite adar. sum of these clouwns carry on like secon grade shcool kids.
if wear gunna show manigers a thing and too we need to first a all show them wear professinals.
write on bro.

[bundybear]

Meanwhile back at the airport..........

A whole lot of little red 737's with a big "V" on their tail, have quietly loaded up and b@ggered off.

[LetsGoRated]

Hey LightItUP, speak for yourself! The last thing I want to see is mainline getting screwed. "The belief that only Qantas pilot can fly a jet" - What is this crap you speak? Most impulse pilots have been fairly humble, considering our good fortune. Why rub it in? As for the vote, I don't think anyone will be influenced by what is written here, so please refrain from your antagonizing threats.

Please learn to spell!!:ok:

[LightItUp]

Please read the post again LGR. Never said I wanted to see mainline screwed either. I'm all for the one banner program and I would have thought I made that clear. Although you may have read some antagonization in that post that was not its intention. Each to their own...:hmm:

[E.P.]

Thank God QF management had the good sense to employ an ex-Ansett A320 c.p. as the new PORNSTAR Chief Pilot. :ok:

Honestly, the way you guys act the bus would have bitten your swollen butts before you got your swollen heads through the cockpit door!! :hmm:

Well at least he can employ a dozen or more ex A320 drivers to hold your little hands. :sad:

Don't worry, they don't have your massive egos or your little dicks.Oh and they don't park their Jet on the golf course!! :ouch:

[spinout]

would these A320 captains have gotten their commands around the year '89, that will make it an interesting place to work, at least managemant will be able to get what they want.

[Capt Fathom]

Oh and they don't park their Jet on the golf course!! Well...not yet! :E

[proplever]

Hey Lets Go..?

Just a thought here. If indeed the last thing you want to see is mainline "screwed" as you so eloquently put it, then why are you impulse guys so readily doing the exact thing that you suggest that you dont want to do?

News flash. YOU ARE SCREWING MAINLINE DOMESTIC..! And at the same time taking a gigantic dump in the collective nest..!

There but for the grace of God, EP. Rather ironic post really. You talk in such an arrogant fashion, about the arrogance of others!

[E.P.]

"Arrogant"? Possibly. However, sometimes the dog needs a whack with the newspaper, in this case, the "Reality Times". ;)

[Pete Conrad]

Conversation a mainline mate of mine had with a Nopulse captain while walking towards bull**** castle - aka Qlink admin building a few weeks ago.

Mainline guy dressed in civvies - asks question to captain Kremin of VQ - " you guys going to hire ex AN A320 guys to help"?

Answer from captain Stem of VQ - " nah, we don't need them, if we do, we'll hire them for 12 months, use them, then offer them a right seat job - if they don't like it they can F$#^ off"

Question to captian Yeager of VQ - " how are mainline guys going to factor in all this?

Answer from commander rod walloper - "well, we don't want the arrogance F^%$^wits in our operation"

So there you have it - straight from the horses mouth from one very matter of fact pilot that John West rejected.

The Airbus will bite these twits Proplever - it's just a matter of time, they know it - I wonder how much the training bill is going to be or blow out to, for a low cost operator - thats gotta hurt?

[Whiskery]

One sparrow does not necessarily mean the beginning of spring.

Keep the Faith:]

[vigi-one]

Its also forgotten that the Regionals will lose out of this ie Jetstar - MEL/NTL and BNE/NTL. JSTAR and mainline to MKY and ROK will significantly reduce regional loads.

[LetsGoRated]

Guess you're right prop, its the pilots at fault here. QF would never have launched JQ as a greenfields operation. We came up with all this just to piss you off. Just love the control we exert over the Qantas group......its great ordering QF management around!! I suppose in my shoes, you & Pete would have quit by know, right. Gone back to GA?

Pair of angry, frustrated twats!!:ok:

[Next Generation]

E.P., LetsGoRated

Great posts guys.

Absolutely p!ssing myself with laughter at the latest turn of events in the "Q" camp. Anybody with half a brain could see what G.D. was trying to do.

Hey Proplever, who died and made Q@NT@S pilots god! I know you all think you are skygods, because you passed some psych and skills test, but does that really make you better pilots?

I think not. It just shows that you can pass psych and skills tests!

I think you Mainline guys should make room for the impulse guys.

Oh, hang on a sec, looks like your management is doing it for you.

We wish you luck in your aviation career.

[blueloo]

Next Generation, it is refreshing to see an unbiased post here. Keep it up. NOT.

:mad:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Anybody with half a brain could see what G.D. was trying to do....

So how did you spot it NG? Maybe your independent auditors picked it up for you?

[proplever]

Lets Go? Instead of your usual childish taunting (Very mature mate btw..) lets debate the topic.

Are you really seriously going to atempt to tell me that you impulse pilots have struck a blow for the common good of the Australian aviation community here? Are Australian pilots going to be collectively better off due to what you have done here?

Now don't go raving about GD this time and whether he forced you into it. We are both aware of what pilots were / are / should be paid. Have some backbone and tell me whether YOU did the right thing. Don't use someone else (aka QF management) as a scapegoat. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions, as am I. So answer my questions, please.

NG. Not a very rational post, mate. I have never stated that I am a better pilot, nor have I said anything about QF testing making me better. So don't put that on me, my friend. As I said to LGR, debate the topic. Not the man. Can you answer the questions above?

[spinout]

Let’s face it, the impulse pilots had a rather difficult choice, accept what was offered or have no job at all, and as some of them had been rejected by Qantas etc. the decision was not hard to make. We all know that Qantas mainline pilots would not have helped or cared remember what happened to the Southern 146 crews.
That fact that AIPA have supported the segregation of the regionals has also played into Qantas management’s hands, divide and conquer and Management took advantage of it.
I have to ask why are Qantas mainline pilots are so distraught over Impulse/Jetstar when National Jet (not owned by Qantas) have been operating Jets for years surely that has cost a few commands.
The few mainline pilots that believe they are better than the rest of us because they managed get through the Qantas interview process are not worth worrying about the interview process is floored and very subjective.
How to fix it, One union, One seniority list… and stop the BS! I’m better that you, That’s my job, etc
It might help if AIPA made some policy statements about the Subsidiary companies and their feeling about non Qantas pilots operating Qantas services. Qantas pilots are all pilots employed by Qantas and their owned subsidiaries.

[proplever]

You make some very good and certainly relevant points, Spin.

I'd submit to you that the reason that QF pilots are so upset about the Impulse / Jetstar pilot group is because they have suddenly and collectively realised that our pay and conditions are being severely degraded.

Yes, there was Jitcinnict, and prior to that NJS of course. But this has been the biggest blow yet, and everyone is now taking notice. Maybe the Impulse pilots are copping a little of that should be directed towards others, but the fact remains that they have undercut QF mainline, and the result will hurt our entire pilot fraternity.

Fixing it? Yes maybe consolidation of the pilot groups will help, but I feel that there is just too much animosity all round within them to make much of a difference.

[blueloo]

One Union Yes. One Seniority List? I dont think so. I didnt apply to Coles Supermarkets only to be awarded a spot at Meyers Department Store - if you get my drift.
Jetstar, Impulse etc, whilst part of the QF Group, are separate entities. Why does that give them rights into QF's seniority?

I am not saying they shouldnt have the means into QF or a better chance of selection for QF - (if they would even want to work their now), but that is a bit odd working for one company only to get on anothers seniority list!!!!!!

(This whole Seniority issue is a Union Bandaid Fix for a Major F-up the Union made years ago)

Furthermore, whilst the QF skills and pysch test cause much debate to their actual worth, people in impulse have failed this test - now this certainly doesnt make them bad pilots or bad for QF, but rightly or wrongly it has set a minimum standard for QF to cull applicants - so surely it will be discrimination against all other applicants who have failed the QF Skills and Pysch Tests if one group can now get in, yet another can't.

[Keg]

If we actually had just the one employment standard for the entire QF 'group' then why not go with the one seniorority system? It would certainly ease the angst. The individual airlines can still pick whichever person they want but at least we know that EVERYONE has passed the same standard of entrance. Date of joining seniorority wins. The pilots (and by that I mean AIPA) control the seniorority list, not the company. We can put the PM on the list if we want to. He still has to pass the QF entrance stuff though! :D

We've done it before when we had 'protected' humbers for the regional guys and gals (about '95/'96) and we can do it again!

[proplever]

Therein lies the problem, Keg & Bloo.

Was talking to another QF Cpt the other day. Telling me about a fella he knows in Impulse. Nice guy apparently, but had failed QF selection twice and was now a 717 Cpt. Still goes around calling himself a "Qantas" captain. OK, technically he is a "Qantaslink" captain, therefore "Qantas". But still offensive to a Qantas captain who has earned the right (as well as probably 15 years service, at least) to call himself that.

Why should he be given an automatic right to QF Mainline?

Definately this is a conundrum...

So then. How do we deal with people like this? How are they integrated?

IMHO, the QF regionals have a right to move up the chain, and they SHOULD be sponsored by AIPA. But I do have a problem with AIPA sponsoring the Impulse pilots group, who have technically "jumped" the que, and undermined the structure for their own selfish end.

[E.P.]

Well chappies, you will be happy to learn that your new (former AN 320) brothers were required to pass psych tests and have the required standard of physics etc. I remember one psych question;

"Would you select full reverse and max braking on a wet rwy?" :O

[Blown Seal]

Could I please refocus peoples attention back to the article "Raising the Bar" in Keg's post.

A lot of people need to spit the dummies for good and focus their energies on maybe trying to unify the pilot group once more, for the benefit of everyone concerned.:hmm:

[blueloo]

E.P. the good thing about you, is that your posts have consistenly set such a low standard that nobody gives a rats bottom about what you say now.

:}

[Hugh Jarse]

If we actually had just the one employment standard for the entire QF 'group' then why not go with the one seniorority system? It would certainly ease the angst. The individual airlines can still pick whichever person they want but at least we know that EVERYONE has passed the same standard of entrance.

Keg, I can tell you that's the way it's heading now. Well, at least the employment standard, and right across the subsidiaries except NJS. P&S testing has been the norm for Eastern for over 2 years, and is now standard across the turboprop subsidiaries, as is the sim ride.

I don't know about new hires into Jetstar, but they will do at least a sim ride in Sydney;) Their Check Capt. did his training last year.

So you can see it's heading that way.

Then nobody can bitch about being better as the playing field becomes more level:}

[bonvol]

There's a number of people who failed the QF hoop jumping exercise that are flying heavy jets for Cathay, Emrats and a number of other reputable airlines. They seem to be doing alright.

The Chief in Charge of recruitment talks about the number of Group Capts, F18 drivers, ex Ansett drivers and other similarly qualified pilots who fail command, conversion etc and wrings his hands at having to pick up the "wreckage".

Maybe rather than focussing on the recruitment "system" the training system should be looked at.

IMO mainline drivers are probably no better or worse than most other airline pilots.

Agree with Keg on the other stuff.

[Kaptin M]

Although I joined in the year that it was instigated, I recall hearing many of the same theories and arguments being put forward when all the Ansett subsids (A.N.S.W., MMA & ASA) were all amalgamated with the mainline.
There were pilots in the subsids who had failed to gain entrance into Ansett, who were now going to be put ahead of mainline pilots.

Once the SOP's were all standardised, there were a few who couldn't make it.

From an outsiders viewpoint, you're a disparate group at the moment - too busy fighting and name-calling each other, as ALL of your careers are being shot to tatters.

I have no personal interest in seeing this go one way or the other, but I find it incredible that YOU can't see that all of the smoke you're creating with the friction between the various groups, is providing a great cover for those hard at work against ALL of you.

Remember the story of the father, his sons, and the sticks of wood. Because Oldmeadow & Co surely do!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

And while every one here whinges and complains looking over the fence at others backyards, the lawn grows long in theirs.

Dear oh dear, you people need to take hollidays.

[proplever]

Bonvol, I'd probably be the last person to endorse the QF recruitment or Trg systems, however sometimes, just sometimes they DO get it right. Percentage basis? Wouldn't have a clue.

But even if one of those people in Impulse who have an easier road into QF mainline get in following a failure in the original recruitment process, then a serious injustice has occurred.

The guys in the QF regionals who are battling away DO have a right to be seriously p1ssed off.

What is happenning right now is WRONG!

The cry is "stand together". True, AIPA has not fostered this in the past but, my question now is: How can you stand together when groups such as the IPG come along and willingly undercut everyone, and collectively destroy years of negotiations. How?

[E.P.]

:) Blistering "High standard" come back there Boo-hoo, simply blistering!! :ok:

When they asked you during the QF interview; "Would you describe yourself as 'picayune'?" Why did you excitingly say "yes"? :{

[blueloo]

QANTAS and Training? What Training? The two don't belong in the same sentence!

In QANTAS, if you have it in the book and read it, then you should be able to do it, no if's - no buts. Thats QANTAS Training in a nutshell.

Oh wait a minute they renamed all the Check Captains to Training Captains, so there must be a Training Department!!!!!!


Sad, but very true.

[34R]

Hey Proplever,

Legitimate question, how long have QF relied on the current psychometric evaluation method?

I ask because based on your view of people who where unable to successfully negotiate that step as being somewhat unworthy, (compared to those bright boys and girls that did), would you not then consider a current 20 year+ QF captain who may not have undertaken a similar selection procedure as equally unworthy?

If this mode of selection has indeed been around since day 1, then feel free to consider my question superfluous. :ouch:

[bonvol]

Blueloo is spot on about the "training".

Have a read of the ATSB report on the Ansett 747 bingle and you will see the difference in training methodologies.

Ansett dedicated a training captain to their trainees whereas QF move you from pillar to post and back again. It's a wonder anyone gets through really.

[ur2]

It has been well known throughout the industry for at least the last 20 yrs that QF were known for their poor selection of crew. In most cases (some exceptions) they would take the knuckleheads of the industry and the good blokes would go to AN, EW, TAA etc.
Has the new selection proceedure changed things, or is QF still employing those types ?

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Yes , UR2, you are totally correct. I am a product of that poor crew selection process and I freely acknowledge that I am a knucklehead; poorly suited to my current situation.

I can only hope to one day emulate the standards of the TAA, AN and EW pilots that I now fly alongside of, even though they are junior to me, because as you, with such trenchant insight point out, the industry knows that anyone recruited over the last 20 years doesn't deserve to be here.

I believe also that the current procedure still weed out the "good blokes"(and sheilas!) as you call them, so be not concerned that your ignorant generalisations and bias's are in any danger of being swept away.

I humbly remain, hoping to be not found out...

TCOB....

[Kaptin M]

"It has been well known throughout the industry for at least the last...." 13 years until their demise, AN, EW, TAA etc. took ANYONE who could walk.

Those airlines no longer exist - QANTAS does (for the time being).Ansett dedicated a training captain to their trainees whereas QF move you from pillar to post and back again. It's a wonder anyone gets through really.Of the 5 airlines I have worked for, Ansett was the ONLY one that used this system, bonvol.
Now I must admit that I was always fortunate to be allocated a T.C. who knew how to impart his knowledge, and wiith whom I enjoyed flying, being quizzed and tutored post flight, and then the socialising.
The Ansett I flew with had a terriffic selection process for their T.C.s, and the odd one who slipped through was usually culled out after it became evident he wasn't suited to the position.

Otoh, the system of flying with a different T.C. also seems to have its advantage, however I don't believe there is the advantage of "continuity" that trainees received under Ansett's system. But they work anyway.

[tenke]

O N Y A (H)!!! TCOB.

[blueloo]

I too am a knucklehead, and my knuckles also scrape along the ground. It is only a matter of time before management notices the blisters and scratches on the top of my hands and realises the error of their employment and recruitment policy. Maybe I should fire myself. :uhoh:

[Thumbs up]

34R ,Your question is definatly not superfluous in this topic.

There was no requirement 20 years ago to have Grade 12 Maths,Physics to join Qantas,nor was there any requirement to pay your own way to Sydney,yet alone pay for your own testing:*

I know if you did the rounds of the senior QF Captains (and they answered honestly) that you'll find some who don't have these subjects.

20 years ago the only outfit to require senior Maths and Physics was TAA,but of course if you came in from regionals that were taken over like Air Queensland then that didn't matter.

Just for interest I have flown the all singing all dancing aircraft and now I'm back to a more regional type of aircraft...no prizes for guessing which one is the more demanding!.

[spinout]

Don’t forget the pilots that joined Australian in '89 they did not even have to have a passport, let alone pass a psychology test and they are in Qantas or am I mistaken....

[proplever]

Think your question has been answered, 34. I certainly admit that I've no idea until now.

The point that I'm trying to make though, is that the system is for right here, right now. Those 20+ Captains are there whether we like it or not.

One of the main reasons that this is WRONG, is because those pilots in Jetstar who have been knocked back for QF, and are now symbolically working for QF, but on a very different pay scale.

So, why is it that these guys are acceptable to QF, but only on a lower pay scale?

Does anyone see anything RIGHT in this?

[commander adama]

Proplever

Do you know when to quit or give up. I bet you probably make excuses for mediocre performance. Let it rest please. It is all getting a little bit boring. Maybe the true professionals here are the Jetstar guys for quietly going along and doing their business while others and you make fools of yourself. You actually do not see the Jetstar guys posting on this forum or at least very very few. Maybe that says something.

I hope I do not sound too harsh. I am neither connected to Jetstar nor Mainline.

Have a nice day:ok:

[proplever]

From a man with one post. Yes. You are trying not to sound harsh? By questioning my performance? Jeez oh dear. Go away. If you don't want to read this, or get involved constructively, just go away.

[commander adama]

In my opinon I provided constructive criticism. After reviewing your input here and historically I am somewhat confused as to whether you are able to contribute constructively to not only this thread but past threads as well. You do your collegues more harm than good. Now I do not wish to get involved in a slinging match. Hence I will no longer post on this thread.

You judge me on 1 post now make it 2.

[The Bullwinkle]

Proplever,

If you don't want to read this, or get involved constructively, just go away.

I must say that from my observations, your comments cannot be described as being particularly constructive.

It appears that you are saying that because these pilots at Impulse have failed the superfluous tests that QANTAS use as a filter, they are somehow less skilled.

I beg to differ.

Perhaps the selection process at QANTAS is the problem, as they have let so many good pilot's miss out, and yet at the same time have let some, shall we say dubious characters, through.

Some of these Impulse guys may not have even applied to QANTAS, but as the company that they were working for was aquired by QANTAS, they now have no choice but to come underneath the QANTAS umbrella.

Although many might see QANTAS as being the be-all and end-all of aviation, some may not.

I must admit that I for one have never had the inclination to fly for QANTAS.

[proplever]

All fair comments, Bull, except for one thing. You might not see my comments as "constructive", but I and many others DO. I fly with and discuss this with many other QF drivers on a daily basis, and they are all equally disturbed about what is happenning.

But, at least you make your comments rationaly, and without "playing the man". Unlike adama, who still doesn't seem to understand that what he said was an simply attack on me, nothing else (and twice to boot!). I'm a big, ugly guy and I can take whatever he dishes out, but I'd rather stick to the thread.

No, I'm not suggesting they are less skilled for an instant. I have NEVER said that.

I'm suggesting that they are being paid half as much as QF pilots for doing the same work, and they are setting a very poor precedent in Australian Aviation by accepting this deal.

I'm suggesting that QF HAS knocked back many of these guys, and whilst they are not acceptable to QF on one pay scale, they are acceptable on another lower scale. This last point is probably more directed at the company than the impulse pilots directly.

You actually do not see the Jetstar guys posting on this forum or at least very very few. Maybe that says something.

I wonder why? Could it be that there simply is no defence? Or is that defence just the childish taunts of LGR and DM? Because I still haven't read any reasonable responses from them.

Come on, impulse. Surprise me.

[The Bullwinkle]

I fly with and discuss this with many other QF drivers on a daily basis, and they are all equally disturbed about what is happenning.

This may in fact be the problem. Your discussions with fellow-workers would be a little like preaching to the converted.

Obviously, your colleagues would be disturbed by the recent developments, but I believe that it is a far stretch of the imagination if you expect the Impulse guys to not sign up for Jetstar, when the only options were agree, or leave.

These guys have wives and families to support as well as you do, and this situation, and the decisions they have had to make, have been forced upon them. They are making the best of a bad situation, so that they can at least pay their bills and feed their families.

You can't honestly expect them to forego a jet job of any description, because it may erode someone elses conditions.

That is just not a realistic option.

[34R]

Indeed Bullwinkle

It appears if an individual stumbles over one of the hoops at QF, this should preclude him from any jet job in this country on the basis that;

1. He will earn less money

2. Him/Her earning less money undermines the efforts of the chosen few at QF, if they accept a lower paid position.

The aspiring pilots aren't to blame here, your anger should remain focused on management for allowing this double standard to continue, and in the process divide you. You can't expect driven and dedicated people to hang up there headsets because the sole remaining company that remunerates accordingly wont have them.

On the other side of the coin it can't be too nice going to work knowing your bretheran who share equal portions of ability and responsibility are taking home substantially more than you.

[Angle of Attack]

You cant blame the impulse guys for this, they had the option of flying jetstar or lose their jobs, that simple. They were not in the union they had no bargaining power. The union should have incorporated them earlier, but thats in the past, it can't be changed, the union is doing the best they can in the current circumstances. The management is to blame for this, its a classic divide and conquer technique and its been played out in numerous countries and industries before. Dixon is laughing his way to the bank over this debacle while the pilots argue about it. It all comes down to one point really,

Divided we fall, United we stand

The choice is for all the pilots under the qf umbrella to decide.

[Airspeed Ambassador]

proplever

Putting your anti Impulse feelings aside for one moment, I would be interested to know (in your opinion) what remuneration mainline pilots would accept to crew a LOW COST airline that needs to be competitive with the other LOW COST airline - Virgin Blue.

Do you not think that QF would have achieved its desired cost base in another way (with a brand new company / contract pilots perhaps) if the Qantas 717 pilots had not got involved?

IMO Qantas was always likely to respond with its own LCC. Can you tell me how mainline pilots would have structured (in a competitive way) such an offshoot to Qantas.

Did you note that I referred to them as Qantas 717 pilots? When Qantas purchased Impulse they became Qantas employees. Over the years, hundreds of airlines, each with their different entry requirements have integrated successfully (Ansett did it many times over the years). Why couldn't your colleagues manage it? Could no one see the benefits of integration? Wouldn't junior mainline/intl pilots enjoy the lifestyle/flying potentially offered by the 717 fleet if it would speed up promotion opportunities?

To me it seems that the "FU - I'm all right jack" syndrome that you happily criticise others for, is exactly the reason you and your mainline/intl colleagues are now under pressure.

[The The]

Don't forget that it was the Impulse pilot group that went to J* management OFFERING to fly the A320 under their current conditions (with a vague discussion of improvements).

J* management were flabergasted at the offer and fell off their chairs dumbstruck that they never could have dreamed of such a deal.

The Impulse pilot body then had no choice but to accept the deal and voted as such.

Smart management (only had to keep mouths shut), dumb pilot representatives (yet again).

J* management were preparing to START negotiations at DJ rates and would probably have paid more to secure a deal.

[Kaptin M]

IF

IF

IF

IF..... AIPA had been just a LITTLE bit smarter and had taken the Impulse pilots on board then you wouldn't all be thinking and scrapping about what MIGHT have been.

Remember the adage, "People get the government they deserve."
Well guess what QF guys, YOU have got the union representing YOU, that YOU deserve!

It would seem that SOME of you are starting to wake up to the fact that YOUR APATHY is now going to turn around and bight YOU in a big way.

But it's still NOT too late, imo, to wake up to yourselves and take some POSITIVE ACTION by uniting ALL of the QF pilots, NOW!!
If you can stop the "IF's".

(And btw, proplever, would it surprise you to know that many other airlines' pilots operate the same types as QF pilots do to at least as good a standard - and frequently better :eek: )

[max AB]

I love this abuse, reminds me of the old jet blast days. Out of interest for the unimformed like me, what is a Jetstar skipper getting paid?

[proplever]

Some rational debate at last. Good to see.

Airspeed, it may surprise you to learn that RyanAir and easyjet crew are paid significantly more than Implulse and Virgin. And perhaps the most successful LCC Southwest, their pilots are paid a great deal more than QF.

LCC do NOT need to pay their pilots peanuts to be successful! QF / J* just choose to do so because they can!

And why wouldn't they when people like the IPG come along and OFFER themselves (as TT has reminded us) at lower and lower costs.

All this talk of "cost base" by airline management really is spin doctoring. Listen to GD for a while. He is very good at it. He makes Humphrey Appleby look like an amatuer.

Now, lets for a moment look at two pilots in the QF group in 1999 / 2000. Joe is a Dash 8 captain. Bill is a B1900 Captain. Bill earns just a little less than Joe. But suddenly Bill gets to fly 717's, just because he was there. He gets a command after only 500 hours on type. Now, Bill is going to automatically get to sit in the left seat of a 320 automatically, just because he was there, and because he is cheap. Joe is still on the Dash, watching as he is rapidly bypassed.

So it's not only the pilots in QF mainline who are annoyed. The regionals should be outraged.

And Kapt? Your comments held some relevance until the final one. You know I have NEVER stated that. So don't put that on me.

[spinout]

This all boils down to the fact that the Pilots in Australia are divided and the only way out of this is to unite under one union, the question is which one, APIA, AFAP, TWU, all are involved.
Some Qantas pilots have joined the TWU, most are represented by AIPA, Qantas Regionals, and Virgin etc. are represented by the AFAP, I think a few of the Jetstar pilots are also represented by the AFAP along with GA.
Now we all know that a union is just that, a union of like minded people looking after the interests of the group, and it is my personal belief that if we all consolidated under the banner/charter of the AFAP we would be better off, remember the members control the direction of the union. Just think how powerful the AFAP could be with a stronger membership, it could afford to employ a battery of industrial lawyers and negotiators.
I am sure there will be those out there that will say look what happened in ’66 or ’89 it was the AFAP that lost my job etc. but in truth it was you, the then membership of the AFAP that did those things, or maybe you were poorly advised, those things can be changed by becoming more involved in the election process as well as the hiring of industrial officers. The Australian Federation of Airline Pilots could be a great union given the right support.
I for one am not interested in AIPA, as it is obvious that they have very little say in what happens at Qantas anymore, management have taken control. AIPA could surly tare up some letters of agreement if they wanted to show some distaste in what has happened.
The TWU, well would you be a small fish in a big sea? Would you be forced into supporting industrial action for a group of people we have nothing to do with?

:rolleyes:

[Pete Conrad]

DM - Heres a thought- instead of saying that we all need a holiday - why don't you just realise that the majority of us here want to get paid properly for the job we do that involves many sacrifes and responsibilities.

With the profits that QF make, and will continue to make - there is hardly a requirement to "slash and burn" conditions of service to levels that Impulse have successfully attained.

What your failing to see, and speak to anyone that has been around long enough - is that your mob, via your ACC arm were the ones who started the practice of pay for training and exploitation of willing pilots who had missed out with other airlines - FACT.

I keep saying it - give a GA operator jets and overnight they turn into wellsprings.

And as for your mates that think QF pilots are arrogant and not welcome at Jet* - thats a real shame. SAfety should come before EBA deals.

Good luck - as for Asia - well, up there, they don't prosititute. The world doesn't revolve around flying and selling your soul to the flying devil there, in the majority of places there is mutual respect and humility - barring stalag SQ.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

I've said this before.

Mainline crews did NOTHING to stop this situation from developing when they had the chance:

1. Did not recognise early enough what QF management motives and plans were with even the introduction of Australian (an obvious testing of the waters by management with regard to response from the workers) and went along for the ride.

2. Impulse was purchased by the Qantas 'Group' and the lower paid workforce was introduced into the group (an obvious threat) and then ostracised from the mainline union and left out in the cold. The incumbent arrogance and plain STUPIDITY allowed a lower paid staff to be operating 'in house', thereby being an OBVIOUS source of lower cost labour for QF management and GD's profit motives!!! :=

Then, to also mistreat/reject/slander/look down upon the Impulse crews does not generate any feelings of 'comradeship' nor 'brothers in arms'. And with the prospects of the B717 being phased out, no one would have given a ****e about these guys losing their jobs. So, these guys took the option to keep them going and live to 'fight another day'.

The pathetic thing really is the way that mainline did little or no fighting to remedy this situation, and now criticise and slander the Jetstar crews for their tactics, as well as expect them to 'just say no' and save the mainline crews the 'hassle'and 'trauma' of having to actually fight an industrial fight either through clever and hard negotiating, or industrial action. Not that that would work because pilots are such a splintered and selfish group in any case, so unless YOU are prepared to fight the fight, and have enough 'comrades' to be an organised and tough workforce, well then, just sit back and accept that thing just may slide - just don't expect others to do your bidding for you.

WRT to QF Group regionals missing out, well this is a disappointment too. But again, this is a problem mainline are attaching to Impulse as well. For mainline to more or less exclude experienced regional pilots from their ranks is ludicrous - that should be agreed upon. So why expect Jetstar, a seperate entity within the QF 'Group' be obligated to take the regional crews as a progression, where mainline is not? So, another battle that Jetstar has to fight because mainline will not.

Finally, I am sure that QF have their fair share of hacks and inepts that make it through the net, so slandering all Jetstar crews as substandard is just another pathetic, schoolgirl, tongue poking excercise.

Bottom line is that mainline are too chicken to take the fight to the proper place (QF Group management), lest your comfort zone and 'lifestyle' be disturbed, you pick on the easy mark (the Impulse crews) and blame them for all your woes and expect them to do the dirty work for you.

Grow up - You either fight the fight against the proper 'adversary' or you let the guys get on with the job of feeding the kids.

The REAL enemy here is not the pilot groups, but the management that is totally profit orientated, and workers conditions and morale are low on the order of things importatnt. Like Pete Conrad said, all pilots want to work for good pay and conditions.

Unless ALL pilots stand together, a fraternity that looks after the interests of one and all, management will have their 'evil ways'with the workforce.

But a united pilot group? Like, that would happen.....(I, me, mine, my struggle, my sacrifices, my situation)..............



PS I love the way that the baggage handlers can keep their pay the same as at QF, but with better productivity, but the pilots gotta go cheap????

[nzer]

IF - as quoted elsewhere in this forum - a QF B737 Captain is being paid between 200 and 240K ASD, then it is no wonder a more realistic cost basis for crews is being persued by QF - that sort of pay for the sort of revenue which can be earned with low yield fares (such as now are being required to compete) is out of step with reality. The entrenched attitudes expressed in here against any sort of recognition of and accomodation to the current operating/competitive realities by SOME will serve to doom them to oblivion.

[woftam]

nzer,
Did you happen to see where QF made all their profit recently (and REGULARLY)?
The "overpaid" domestics!
:D

[blueloo]

iN MY BOOKS THATS UNDERPAID. Just because you Kiwis sell yourself short, doesnt mean others have to lower their standards. How much should someone entrusted to 200 or so peoples lives be paid. You only have yourself and the ther guys on the flight deck to consult in an emergency, not the luxury of board meeting with a dozen other guys and with no time pressure.


Unfortunately and dare i say it, what this country really needs in several accidents to prove what a pilots worth. Its a horrible thought, and I hope it doesnt eventuate.

[oicur12]

Proplever,

Comparing the pay rates at Euro LCC’s and with Oz LCC’s is pointless. Unless you consider all of the factors at play in both markets (especially a lack of tech crew during the boom phase of the Euro startups).

“LCC do NOT need to pay their pilots peanuts to be successful! QF / J* just choose to do so because they can”

Although I would argue that Jetstar pay rates are not peanuts, I agree with you that Jetstar’s success does not hinge on paying pilots approx half of a mainline wage. But a big part of Jetstar’s comparative advantage (that will be finite) is staffing costs (all staff) and more importantly labor flexibility, something that SWA, Ryan and Easy have in spades over the incumbents like UA, AA and BA.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that “ . . they can”. Precisely. The Oz industry is full of experienced pilots and a premium is not required to attract people to work for Jetstar. Can I clarify your position – are you therefore arguing that QF should pay Jetstar crew higher wages even though they don’t need to.

What business logic would that be employing.

[Le Pilot]

Listen to the Colonel

[Wiley]

Could everyone pause for a short history lesson? (It may not seem relevant to this thread at first glance, but I do believe it is, so please – particularly QF mainline drivers – take the time to read it.)

It’s September 1940 and the battle of Britain is reaching crisis levels for the British. The superbly trained pre-war RAF fighter pilot ranks have been thinned considerably by the high attrition any front line force will suffer in such circumstances. The RAF rushes hastily-trained, non-commissioned replacements to front line squadrons, many of them with standards and levels of training that would never have been accepted as little as six months earlier.

Now let’s switch to current times and you’re producing a modern day morality play on the BoB. Let’s assign roles:

- The Luftwaffe: QF Management (who else?)

- The highly trained RAF fighter pilots (with all the right social skills and connections to win a peace time commission in the pre-war RAF). The QF mainline drivers

-The perhaps not so well trained (and lacking in the right connections and social polish) non-commissioned replacement RAF fighter pilots: The Impulse and Qantaslink drivers

-The people of Britain and the Free World): The current Australian GA pilots and future generations of Australian airline pilots

Now a question for you QF mainline drivers: If the doubtlessly higher quality pilots of the pre-war RAF had refused to sully their ranks with lesser mortals in the shape of Czech, French, Polish, along with lower class British and Empire (that’s us Aussie, Kiwi, Canuck and Indian) pilots who’d been rushed through bare-bones wartime training courses – many if not most of whom would never have passed muster as officers and gentlemen in a pre-war RAF officers’ mess - what would have been the outcome of the Battle of Britain, and therefore WW2?

And another question: if we string the history lesson out to the next stage and accept that the pre-war RAF pilots did accept the lesser mortals into their ranks back in 1940, how many of the cheering crowds that line the streets in parades celebrating the British victory knew (or gave a tinker’s cuss) whether you, marching in the parade in your blazer with your medals proudly displayed, were a higher class pre-war pilot or a ‘quickie’ wartime replacement?

May I say, as an outsider not currently employed in Australian Aviation, that anyone who doesn’t see that Australian airline pilots are currently committed to a war no less desperate and with stakes almost as high as the those of a ‘real’ war, they’re wearing blinkers. You all simply MUST get together and form a united front to stop any further erosion of conditions or there’ll be no ‘victory parades’ in later years.

As much as it might stick in the craws of some, you will even have to welcome into your UNITED ranks pilots who didn’t cut the mustard in earlier battles (you know the one I mean) if they are willing to stand – and do stand - with you this time.

And any one of you who think the way that ‘Pete Conrad’ and a few others who’ve posted here do - that you are somehow special because you passed some tests that others didn’t and that’s reason enough to keep these others out of your ranks no matter what - you’re doomed to lose much more than some special status as ‘a Qantas pilot’ that you think you’re defending.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Wiley. How are you qualified to comment on training standards. Impulse has been scruitinised alot by qantas check and training Captains. They ride along in the jump and check all facits of the operation. This has been happening for at least 12 months.

Looking down your nose at others certainly does not make you a professional. Most guys who have been around know this.

Nice vitriol.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Better I think to just ignore the arrogant ravings of the miniscule % of 'real QF' pilots who feel the need to post such utter drivel here.

It's a well known fact that QF have employed many dickheads over the years, we all know a few who stunned us by getting a QF guernsey despite having less than impressive histories in GA/RAAF, and we all know many really good guys who missed out.

So a few of the dickheads believe their own press and are so insecure as to need, at every opportunity, to kick the 'lesser mortals' who didn't get in while they are 'down'.

Get over it guys.....lots of us never even applied to QF.

I even know a bunch of ex QF guys, of all ranks, who left because they didn't much like working there, for whatever reason ranging from the crap dished out by 'God Like' 744 captains to just not wanting to wait their entire adult lives for a command.

I personally know a large number of Jet* guys and I can attest to the fact that their skill levels and professionalism would match up to ANY QF mainline pilot....not better, nor worse...just every bit as good.

So AIPA have once again missed the boat industrially....well that'd be about time 10 that I can think of off the top of my head. They have fought against the integration of all QF (regional) pilots for years and now wonder why it's all coming unraveled....poor diddums!!!

What utter arrogance that they think that the pilot group outside QF mainline must give any consideration WHATSOEVER to the opinions of a bunch of egomaniacs who have fought ONLY for their own self interest for decades.

Let alone the utter nieve stupidity of this pilot group who can't even see the wood for the trees. QF management have played you for the chumps you are....now you want to blame everyone else.

I feel for the larger % of QF mainline pilots who don't share this arrogance but are tarred with the same brush.

Chuck.

[Wiley]

Bloody hell, McD! Your reply shows exactly why management are going to win this. I'm not for one moment saying that Impulse drivers are lesser in ANY way to QF mainline drivers - I'm trying to point out to SOME mainline drivers that their PERCEIVED superiority, (the patenylt silly attitude that has led to the sorry state of affairs we see today with fragmented pilot groups), means absolutely nothing in the long run and if things continue the way they are going, they'll lose much more than their self-perceived position of superiority because they are 'pre-war trained'.

Look back to my earlier posts. I'm the one who was jumped on by people like you for saying the time has come to amalgamate all pilot unions into one UNION. That's U-N-I-O-N. I'm also the one who said that QF drivers started this rot back in 1983 of whenever it was by breaking away from the AFAP to form AIPA.

[The Bullwinkle]

Chimbu Chuckles

Well said.

[Wiley]

Col Kurtz, well said. I only wish people woukld take heed of your excellent advice.

[justanotheraviator]

Gentleman and Ladies

If we can put all the personal attacks aside for the moment and leave the past in the past for a brief moment I believe that the real question is –

WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATION WORTH?

QF management have taken the opportunity to say to ALL Pilots in Australia that you are paid TOO much money. In just the same way as Richard Branson did with Virgin Blue a few years ago.

What saddens me is that for a group of professionals, I assume it is just a minority, take great delight in the troubles of others. Are we, unlike all other professional groups, prepared to offer our services at a lower and lower level to the next company that comes along as the going rate gets closer to rock bottom.

We ALL have put the work and personal sacrifices into gaining our professional qualifications and then we have ALL put the time and effort in to maintaining these qualifications. Some of us for longer than others maybe, but I believe that the question is not what one group of Australian pilots is worth because the downward pressure on one group of pilots wages will sooner or later be applied to ALL pilots wages in Australia unless we as a group do something constructive about it.

While every other group of wage earners in the country are pushing for greater remuneration we are arguing amongst our selves in what I believe is a very immature fashion to the benefit of those who definitely don’t have our best interests at heart.

While AIPA is not blameless they and the QF pilots have to act within the law of the land. The past is the past but the future is not yet written.

To those who take delight in the plight of the QF pilots situation remember that you will be next. If you believe that your boss won’t look at what an A320 Captain is now worth in Australia and not think that YOU are now overpaid, well as Michael Caton said in an Australian classic “Tell him he’s dreaming”.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Wiley,

You draw a very long bow in your comparison with the domestic airline situation and WW2. Noone's exactly dying here are they? It ranks up there as a poor analogy, with the 'epic ANZAC day' footie matches where promoters try to trade in on 'ANZAC spirit and tradition'. I can't stand that comparison, it dumbs down the word 'war'.

CS

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

I think the Colonel and Chimbu have just about summed it up.
Best post of the thread Col. When backed into a corner and not supported from day one the result was predetermined.

Give up a career for those who would happily stand by and watch you track direct to the CES. Mmmmmmmm let me think about that for a moment. I certainly feel for the SILENT majority who are misrepresented on this and other forums.

[proplever]

Your point about the CES is valid DM, and I understand and sympathise.

But I've got to ask you.

What would GD have done with Jetstar if you guys did not offer yourselves at the same pay rate? Would he have employed outside pilots at the same rate? Would he have offered it to QF mainline? Other options?

And the next question which leads naturally from above is this: what is an A320 driver in Oz really worth? Managements opinion has been very clearly expressed. Whats your opinion?

And DM, lets hypothesize further. Lets say ****** pilots bid to fly the A320 on half what you guys are getting. How would you feel about that?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Proplever. Id love to earn a million dollars a year. But thats not going to happen. Unfortunately market forces AT THE MOMENT are dictating lower wages. If someone bidded a lower wage case , well good luck to them.

Having been around a bit, I can tell you that you learn to see through the bullsh!t and get on with it. Airlines are not about feathering your own nest. Yes that is a nice byproduct. But at the end of the day, it is the travelling public that dictates terms to the management, who in turn pass it on to us.

Demanding big money is nice in principal. But the realities of the modern day airline operation are quite different to the very very good old days. Id like to think that the majority can forget the lone fools and get together in the future to ensure a health industry. Standing the high moral ground, at the end of the day, will achieve nothing.

Cheers DM

[proplever]

I'm struggling with this concept that because Joe Average Ozzie has been convinced that it is his right to be able to travel between SYD and MEL for $30, that we now pay the price.

And I'm struggling to come to grips with the idea that (with all due respect, DM) pilots can just shrug their shoulders and say "well lets just get on with it".

I'm not suggesting "big money" by any means. But I am suggesting reasonable money. Show me another profession in Australia where wages are being reduced by half.

There comes a point in time where you have to say NO! If we don't do it now, then when. I've said it on another thread, but I'll say it again;

HOW LOW DO WE HAVE TO GO...?

[go_dj]

Prop

It's called 'Market Forces' , when these Asian LCC's soak
up the excess pilots now on the market, then and only
then will the JetStar/Virgin Blue pilots have leverage.

[spinout]

Col.w.e.Kurtz

WRT to QF Group regionals missing out, well this is a disappointment too. But again, this is a problem mainline are attaching to Impulse as well. For mainline to more or less exclude experienced regional pilots from their ranks is ludicrous - that should be agreed upon. So why expect Jetstar, a seperate entity within the QF 'Group' be obligated to take the regional crews as a progression, where mainline is not? So, another battle that Jetstar has to fight because mainline will not.

So can we take it from your quote that you are against allowing the regional pilots progression to the bottom of the J* list, maybe you should reread your post, seems you may have a bit of a double standard going.

[nzer]

Woftam, read my post again. What I am saying is that to compete 'head to head" with Virgin/a similar model operation, the operating costs and structure of the current QF domestic operation are too high for an all budget fare operation - hence a competitive operation - in this case "Jetstar" HAS to adopt a lower and more efficient cost structure. I made no comment on the profitability of QF domestic as such.

This could be and should be a reasoned and intelligent debate - all I see from over here is another industrial "self destruct" scenario underway, driven by industrial and economic naievity.

Blueloo, you said :

"Unfortunately and dare i say it, what this country really needs in several accidents to prove what a pilots worth. Its a horrible thought, and I hope it doesnt eventuate."

Firstly, IMO, to think that is "sick". However, more to the point, it shows up one of the flaws in your argument (shared by some others here) - that the rate paid for a job will determine the quality of the job done. Elsewhere there has been an equating of "pay" with "standards".

If you or anyone is seriously suggesting (and regrettably I believe some are) that the Jetstar payrates will mean that their pilots are less qualified, capable, or "safe" than a QF pilot on the basis of pay, or that the opposite holds true, while choosing to overlook the realities of the Australasian/Pacific aviation scene, then you are setting yourselves up for a nasty fall. There are enough recent examples to provide cautionary tales without the need to enumerate them.

[woftam]

nzer,
QF domestic IS competing head to head against Virgin NOW!
AND making a handsome profit,thank you very much.
What Jetstar is about is smoke and mirrors and arresting the market share slide as well as a huge industrial relations "cleansing".
Pilots don't need to be paid crap to make a profit. Look around the world.
QF domestic is bringing home the bacon NOW before "Jetstar" has turned a wheel.

[Keg]

Market forces? WE are the market. Pilots. The 'forces' on us are the company. Sure, WE may be under considerable stress but that doesn't mean that we just accept whatever bones are thrown our way.

QF put a gun to the IPG head. IPG made the best decision possible under the circumstances. I'm cool with that. I've even challenged a bunch of QF people on occasion that 'we' would probably have done the same thing if in the same place. The caveat that I always add is that because of the fractured set up of pilot representational bodies in Australia, the IPG made a decision (that would have been extremally emotional) based on flawed, incomplete and almost mischevious information from the company. Was a proper decision making process gone through after that? Were all sources of information sought? What 'other' information did the IPG try to gather. They certainly didn't ask AIPA who may have had some other information (like it ain't a gun, it's a pea shooter) and this brings me to my final point.

Why didn't they ask? Lack of trust. We screw each other over for the slightest advantage and it has to stop. This forum is a prime example where we take great delight in labelling each other all the time. Sure, occasionally it is a 'righteous' kill (such as NG and his 'independant audit' crap) however the personal hate and disgust with each other based on who we happened to be offered a job by is just nuts. It's selfish and arrogant and ultimately self defeating. We've got to get past the past and move forward together. A wise bloke once said, 'United we stand. Divided, we fall'. Is it any surprise why we're 'falling' at the moment? I don't care why we've been divided in the past except to learn how we can be united from now on.

It IS that simple. :{

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Spinout, I suggest you re-read my post because I am not infering what you believe I am.

If you read it again you will see that I am infering that mainline are expecting others to fight their fights for them (in this case, Jetstar providing a career progression for QF regional pilots, instead of mainline).

I think that the idea of QF regional pilots progressing through J* would bring some more skill and experience into the company, which can only be positive. I argue that mainline should be doing the same, and expecting J* to do this alone is just another example of shirking leadership and responsibility onto other peoples shoulders.

As I am led to believe, that there is some 'history' between the IPG and QF group regional pilots, which further clouds the issue.

Let me digress...(what, further????)

What you have is an 'orphaned' pilot group in the IPG. I'm not so sure that they got the support that they probably should have been given when they were brought into the QF 'Group', considering the size of the group, and the thin ice they were walking upon. Considered the illegitimate baby, over time they have been blamed, slandered and villified for all sorts of reasons and problems that occur today for reasons that had more to do with modern corporate management and the free market society we all 'love so dearly', than with pilots desire to 'get ahead' and get 'a foot in the door'.

Looking at this a little further, one could even argue the merits of paying for their own endorsements; but you can be sure this was a decision they had to make, definitely against their own wishes and preferences, but if you wanna play in the game, and someone else hold the cards, what does one do?

If the shoe was on the other foot, and people who had dreamed of getting into QF were required to foot the bill for endorsements in the form of securities/bonds etc, few would baulk at that, let's be honest.

I really couldn't see mainline pilots going out of their way to stop or protect the B717's from going once the leases are finished and effectively putting the IPG pilots out on the street. It would have been more a matter of 'they're finally gone'. Now they have managed to gain an ace in their deck in the form of the A320's, as a matter of SURVIVAL, and suddenly, they are the centre of all the wrong sort of attention.

Let me finish by saying that I have no doubt that the majority of pilots are thoroughly skilled and motivated professionals. This high motivation also makes them do things that are self centred and in the self interest. I also believe that alot of mainline pilots do not share the opinion of a vocal minority who come across as arrogant and uncaring. The crux of the matter is how fractionalised pilots are in this country - that's a given. Until all pilots are willing to stop acying like school girls in a school yard, get together as a unified and organised workforce/fraternity/guild or whatever, and unless each individual pilot is willing to stand together to defend or improve pilot conditions UNIVERSALLY (in Australia, at least), well then one has to be prepared for the inevitable slide.

Or, you can get out whilst you still have your youth:{

[Kaptin M]

In my opinion, some of you QANTAS pilots are focusing too much on keeping the Impulse (and other QF-affiliated) pilots out of AIPA, in the belief that it could, in the future, affect your prospects within what is currently QANTAS mainline. And to that end you were succesful.
Australian appeared (to me) to be a try on, however it appears that AIPA closed that door.

Paraphrasing Dixon, he didn`t need Impulse when he bought it, but kept it in his back pocket for a rainy day.
What better analogy to use than G.D.`s own, than to bring Impulse and ALL the other QF-affiliated pilot groups under AIPA`s umbrella!

For those of us viewing this from afar, the solution seems all too obvious......if you intend securing your future in QF.
Australian and J* have been established to downgrade the conditions of pilots (and other groups) to allow upper management to maintain their multi-million $ bonuses.

The message from p1 of this thread, through to p10 has been the same.
United you`ll stand - divided you`ll fall.

NZer - have you actually sat down and worked out how much difference to a pax`s ticket price the salary of the pilots` on $120k vs $240k makes?