Aussie ATPL for foreign military pilots?

[Runaway Gun]

I'm working for a foreign military, and would like to move to Australia in a few years (I need a tan, and a Commodore ute).

Is it any harder for me to transfer my experience for an Aussie ATPL (for a possible airline position) than it is for ex-RAAF guys and gals?

Thanks for your input.

[OBNO]

I would say it is the same as for Aussie Military Pilots. Unlike the UK there is no recognition of Quals for ATPL. The only recognition is for the award of a Commercial licence. Therefore you will need to do all Theory subjects ( 6 or 7 can't remember), Instrument Rating Exam and Instrument Rating. If you are coming forom the UK, you may be better to get your UK ATPL and convert it over here. I think that only requires an Air Law Exam and Instrument Rating.

[Keg]

QF for example state a requirement for passes in the Aussie ATPL subjects. I know somoene who converted their US ATPL to an Aussie one but it doesn't matter a zot to QF who want the Aussie subjects!

Good luck.

[molly molly]

As a Canadian ATPL holder and Ex military pilot I had to write the commercial air law, ATPL air law, IREX, and then complete and Air borne IFR Flight Check.

[The Enema Bandit]

And hopefully an English comprehension test.

[Rob Avery]

Gidday,
Assuming you get yor JAA ATPL issued, there are 3 theory exams (CPL law, IFR law, and ATPL Law), then a medical, log book assessment by CASA, an initial IFR flight test. That is about it at present.

However in about March 2005 CASR part 61 is expected to be introduced. This will bring about some fundamental changes to the conversion process, and indeed all training in Australia.

As I understand it, a foreign ATPL holder would need to at least.
Pass all 7 Aust ATPL subjects, the IREX, the medical, possibly all 7 CPL subjects (or at least CPL law), an IFR flight test, and a new ATPL flight test that involves 2 crew. This would of course mean a massive increase in complexity and cost for the person involved. The word is to get it done NOW.

A word of caution here though. It seems that more and more OZ airlines are specifying that the pilots they hire must have passed all 7 Oz ATPL subjects if they are to be considered elegible for a job. If you have converted an overseas licence through the 3 law exams only (as at present), then you sit all 7 to get a job in Oz, failure in any one of the 7 will immediately lose you your licence.

This would seriously impact on any Oz pilots who got their ATPL via FAA system + Oz conversion. Reduced job prospects, and possible loss of licence if they attempt to get hireable by sitting the 7 Oz ATPL subjects.

Also note that CASR part 61 means pass the mark for al subjects becomes 75%, not 70% as at present for most exam subjects (law currently 80%, IREX 70%). Also permission to attempt a CASA theory exam must be had from an instructor after Part 61 comes in.

RAAF pilots at this stage at least get a CPL issued based on their RAAF experience, then pass IFR law exam, IFR check ride, CASA civil medical, and, assuming they have the hours for an ATPL issue, the ATPL licence is issued.

You had better check out with CASA what is required, and what advance standing you get based on your RAF experience.

Cheers
Rob Avery
ATPL Lecturer
[email protected]
:cool:

[redsnail]

Sounds suspiciously familiar with the JAR exams and rules.

[OBNO]

Rob,

RAAF pilots still have to complete all 7 ATPL subjets as well for issue of ATPL.

[kmagyoyo]

Concur with OBNO, just make sure you have an Aussie CPL first as you need that before you can sit the exams.

[3downandlocked]

Don't forget your $Aus 200.00 for the security Check!!!!!!!!!!!!


3down

[Rob Avery]

Yes, all RAAF pilots need to pass the 7 ATPL subjects as well as IFR flight test, IREX exam, ATPL civil medical to get Aust ATPL issued. I train a lot of RAAF personel in the ATPL, and this has always been the case. As I see it, this will not change in 2005, except there is planned to be a multi-crew flight test for the ATPL, as well as the IFR flight test.

Part 61 will effect an awful lot of people. A number of instructors such as myself have been giving CASA input to try and keep things as fair and workable as possible. Many, perhaps most pilots are unaware of the inplications of Part 61. It effects how people are trained from the bottom up.

Cheers
Rob Avery

[Apollo 100]

Rob, do you know if there are any plans to make obtaining a JAA licence easier for those holding an Australian ATPL. I could not believe the requirements, ie 14 exams, 15 hrs instrument training etc etc. Its a complete insult to the Aussie ATPL. CASA should change their licence conversion rules until we get some recognition for our licence.


Apollo

[groundjob1]

Rob

Good to see you on the site.
If/when part 61 comes in how will this effect the military single seaters?
I guess the transport guys will not have a problem with the crew requirement but I can see the jet guys getting :mad: around by this. For the other half in Amberfield, is a navigator considered as crew by CASA?

Also check PM :ok:

[Rob Avery]

Greetings all,
Apologies for the slow reply - just back from annual leave.

The Aust licence has never been recognised by the UK as an equivalent, at least not in recent living memory. You always had to prove you were "worth your salt" by passing all 14 CAA UK ATPL exams, and flight tests. Some European countries such as Holland used to accept Oz pilots and conversion required a Dutch Law exam and the usual medical etc.

With JAA that all changed to more like the previous UK model. At present it is quite easy to convert from any ICAO including JAA licence to the equivalent. For ATPL ..
1. CPL law exam.
2. IREX exam.
3. ATPL Law
4. Medical
5. Log book assessment by CASA.
6. IFR Flight test.
More info at: http://www.aviationshop.com.au/avfacts/aaos_info.htm

As you can see it is very lop sided. Come about March 2005 that will all change if Part 61 comes into law. Overseas ATPL holders wishing to convert it appears must pass all these exams, plus the other 6 ATPL subjects, the IFR flight test, plus the new muti-crew ATPL flight test. All pilots (Oz and other) will have to do these. hold an Oz IFR, plus pass the ATPL flight test after about March 2005.
This regime will obviously cost more for OZ and overseas pilots.

Single seat fighter jocks may indeed have a lot to learn to convert to an ATPL through the upcoming ATPL flght test.

I would strongly suggest any pilot (Ozzie or otherwise) considering getting their Aust ATPL issued, should get their skates on very soon. Currently there is no flight test for the ATPL. In most countries there is an ATPL flight test, and has been for years.

Hope this helps !!
Cheers and Beers
Rob
[email protected]

[Z Force]

Be aware that unless you have Australian residency you won't be able to get work here, or even permanently live here.

[Runaway Gun]

Thankyou Rob, my skates are being oiled as I type.
Looks like I'll have to hit the books when I get some spare time.

Z Force, is it alright if I arrive on the Tampa? ;)


Cheers, RG.

[halfmoon]

i love casa. :(

[Low-Pass]

G'day Rob,

I'm an Aussie in Europe (taking their jobs and their women ;) ) with a JAA ATPL. I also have a Aussie CPL/IR but with not ATPL theory. So I take it that with the new Part 61 rule, I'll "only" have to do the 7 ATPL theory (hey, not as bad as the 14 for the UK) and the flight test if I don't convert (re-convert?) before March 05?

Incidently, won't the flight test simply be an initial or recurrent type-rating/IR on a multi-crew aircraft as is it is over here?

Cheers,

LP

[Rob Avery]

Giday all.
As far as I know the new OZ ATPL (part 61) including the flight test will not get you any browny points with JAA conversion over the current situation. It is promoted by CASA as such, but I can not see how they can justify the statement that it will "make our qualifications more acceptable to an overseas country/licencing system."

Aust and NZ pilots already have a very favorable reputation overseas as very good operators, with high training standards. You will find Kiwis and Aussies flying for airlines all over the planet, and to date I have never had a bad report about their standards or performance.

Traditionally many pilots from the "antipodes" have gone to Europe and flown mostly turbine types, using their family history/connections to get work visa's there. With the EU getting bigger by the minute, the chance of employment would appear to improving, but due to the higher cost of converting to JAA than previously, less downunder pilots will likely be readily able to take advantage of it.

Throughout the late 1990's (prior Sept 11), many airlines in Europe sought out (head-hunted) ANZAC pilots, to the point that some airlines in Oz and NZ (especially regional carriers) lost too many crews and had to curtail some flight schedules for lack of aircrew, especially captains.

With an economic recovery beginning in Europe, the airlines there may not be able to rely on the previously good supply of well trained bronzed ANZAC's with relatively high hours. This could cause a cap in airline expansion after the recovery.

With a general drop in professional pilot training worldwide since 9/11 in many parts of the world, the scene is set for what ICAO has been predicting for a few years now, a lack of aircrew, especially senior aircrew that can train the next round of airline cadets. A lot of pilots have retired/or just given the game away over the last 3 years. They are not likely to come back any time soon.

Low-pass:
Good to see you are acting like a true ANZAC and entertaining foreign women. It's a dirty job I know, but someone has to do it !!

I think CASA will still recognise your CPL/IR, so yes the 7 ATPL exams are likely all that is needed on the theory front. Renew you Multi IR and get into a CASA office soon to get Oz ATPL issued.
Be aware that CASA will only recognise half your FO time, so make sure of the spec for conversion by getting a conversion spec from CASA. Let them know your hours, command, total, night, twin, and explain your situation, and licences held.

Also as I explained earlier for those converting without doing all 7 CASA ATPL subjects ...

"A word of caution here though. It seems that more and more OZ airlines are specifying that the pilots they hire must have passed all 7 Oz ATPL subjects if they are to be considered elegible for a job. If you have converted an overseas licence through the 3 law exams only (as at present), then you sit all 7 to get a job in Oz, failure in any one of the 7 will immediately lose you your licence."
You get it back when you pass all 7 CASA exams.

As for the coming CASA ATPL flight test, I questioned CASA about this, and they say the only requirement as far as the aircraft used, is that it should be able to meet a certain minimum climb gradient 1 Engine Inop after takeoff at the particular takeoff weight used. It seems that a light twin (eg: C310) could meet this requirement. It also seems that you will be tested principally on multi-crew coordination during the flight test. That seems to jar with the light twin concept which is a single pilot IFR approved aircraft, not built for multi-crew.

I should point out that Part 61, and it's brother for flight training schools (part 141) collectively contains over 1500 pages of text. Many people it seems in the pilot training industry in OZ are not fully conversant with these weighty documents. I also hear that those flight schools that are not compliant on day 1 of new regs implimentation date may have to cease ops until they become compliant. No honeymoon period allowed. I have not had this confirmed directly by CASA as yet. All theory and flight training organisations should be working on compliance right now, if they are to have all in place by early next year.

Next year, CASA theory pass mark to rise (generally speaking) from 70% to 75% in all exam subjects and licence levels. Also all who sit CASA theory exams must provide a form signed by an approved instructor, signifying that the candidates knowledge has been assessed by an "approved instructor" as adequate to sit that CASA examsubject.

Okay it's friday night, and I am off now for a well deserved beer.

Cheers (literally)
Rob Avery

[Global TM]

G’day Rob, a very informative posting, thank you, but I can not get my head around some of this stuff.

I am in the same predicament as Low- pass.

One thing I do not understand is quote ’’Our qualifications to be acceptable to an overseas organisation’’ - they are.

If say a QF Captain/FO decided to convert his/her licence to the JAA licence then all they will have to do is to sit Air Law and HPL alone, and do their flight test say in the aircraft that they are current on in a sim with a CAA examiner. Nothing hard about that. An airline here (UK) would not stipulate that one has to have all 14 subjects passed here. They are more interested in ones ability to fly an aeroplane rather than worry about paperwork.

Now if the same person was to do the same thing in Aus, you are saying that unless you do all 7 subjects in Aus then employment prospects are virtually non existent despite if one has a lot of heavy time in their log book.
And on top of all this to gain an AUS ATPL, the victim has to be assessed in a multi crew environment, in a light twin????. Ha. What a load of rubbish. If the purpose of the exercise is to assess one’s multi crew skills and CRM why not use a proper device, one where you can at least use a QRH.

I can understand people that go to the US and do their ATPL subjects there in order to by-pass a little hard work in Aus, then I agree 100% with the airlines policy towards this type of licence conversions.

However, for some one with a lot of heavy time and that has already an Aus CPL/IR, by sitting Air law alone, will diminish my chances of a job, I think well this is word of mouth stuff. Any experienced airline HR person can or should be able to deduce the purpose of such licence conversion and make a decision on an individual’s merit, if not well I’d rather stay where I am thanks.

GTM

[redsnail]

Global TM,
You're not quite right regarding the UK/JAR situation. Only a person who has a min of 3000 hours with a min of 1500 hours TT in command (not FO time) of an aircraft of plus 30 tonnes in primarily international ops or similar can do the abbreviated conversion. (ref LASORS Section G G1.5 Note 2) This will get you a (JAR) UK ATPL only. This cannot (at this time) be used to fly any thing other than G-reg aircraft (without specific national permission) (ref LASORS Section G G1.5 Note 1) Both are on page 295.

If the candidate for a JAR ATPL has 4000 hours FO time on eg a 737 in Australia, tough luck, they have to do the full 14 exams.

[Global TM]

RS, I agree with you are quite right, however your quote ’’You're not quite right regarding the UK/JAR situation. Only a person who has a min of 3000 hours with a min of 1500 hours TT in command (not FO time) of an aircraft of plus 30 tonnes in primarily international ops or similar can do the abbreviated conversion’’.What is so strange about that? If a person has the above experience and goes ahead with the conversion, are you saying that the UK airlines will not accept his application because he has not completed all of the 14 JAA subjects? I do not think so.
Hence my argument, why an experienced person must complete all 7 Aus subjects in order to be employable in Aus?
No need is there, 3000 hrs 737 is 3000 hrs 737 no matter where you go and nothing should stand in one’s way apart from their own attitude and approach in gaining employment.( of course apart from this ridiculous requirement that one has to have all 7 subjects done in Aus). I can see a lot of us expat’s hurrying along to go back to what we were all running away from in the first place.
Requirements.

GTM

[redsnail]

Simple, it's a G-reg licence only. You can't take it to eg Ryanair. They are an Irish reg company.
If a german company offers you a job you will find it extremely difficult to convert that UK issued ATPL to an eg German JAR issued ATPL.
It is a trap that has caught a few guys out.

Also, you did state that FO's were exempt the 14 exams. They are not. Only people with command time will get the exemption. (A small point but it's caugth out folk here too)

The UK ATPL based on 2 exams (and a sim check) because of you have command time can be closed when ever they like. JAA is about to undergo yet another name change. EASA is the new name I think. The CAA have changed the IR conversion requirements 3 times in 3 years.

To do the 7 exams in Australia is much more straight forward than any thing JAR can throw at you. Darn sight cheaper too. (esp if you don't have that magical command time) Trust me on that one.... :bored:

[Global TM]

I just heard it straight from the horse’s mouth.
Converting a JAR ATPL to an Aus ATPL, having held an Aus CPL/IR already, by only sitting Air Law is not a hindrance to employment with any Aus airline. As long as one meets the airlines minimum requirements, they are not bothered on what basis a licence is obtained.
ATPL providers and the airlines have two very different opinions, the former would rather you do all 7 from obvious reasons.

RS, nice to see that some one is reading the reg’s.
I am sorry to contradict your understanding of the regulations, however a friend of mine, and I do mean a person that I know very well. He was offered a job with an ‘’Irish Company’’on a foreign licence even before he began his licence conversion, he was given 2 years to get his JAR licence here in the UK, whilst being employed at the same time. He completed his licence conversion here, and as you claim he can only fly ‘’G registered Aircraft only’’, he was/is flying for an ‘’Irish company’’ even before he received his ‘’G-registered aircraft only licence’’, well he is a Captain right now, 1.5 years later, this meaning that from the moment he stepped in to this country not 1.5 years after he completed his JAR Licence. He did not even have the right to live here and that was arranged for him. This is a fact.
Now let’s not even not talk about people that are from our part of the world with ample flight experience, just remember that they are well respected in this part of the world and if they hold a ‘’G registered licence only’’ they still get jobs on the continent or with ‘’Irish Companies’’. That is another fact.
The reg’s say one thing however airlines look at experience and what it can do for them.

Safe flying,

GTM

[Crash & Burn]

Global TM. I know of at least three Australian airlines/operators that will ASK you if you got your Aussie ATPL based on an ATPL issued in another country or whether you got it by going through the Aussie system.

People seem to infer that because such and such an airline/operator asked the question that it means you MUST have your aussie ATPL credits.

Some airlines/operators seem to frown on aussies who 'bypass' the Australian ATPL by going over to the US, getting their ATPL over there and then come back, do the airlaw exam and get their Aussie ATPL. Thus poeple are asked the question about the basis of their Aussie ATPL.

One reason behind this is that if the pilot decides to go back and do the aussie ATPL's and fails a subject then the pilot no longer has an ATPL and the airline/operator is now short one pilot with ATPL privilidges. And yes, it has happened!

It would appear that if you are from overseas and have a significant amount of experience then the airlines aren't quite as fussed about your Australian ATPL subjects.

Cheers

C & B

[Global TM]

C&B
That is precisely my point.
GTM

[Low-Pass]

Rob,

Thanks for the info. Am planning on getting back late this year so will check things out.

Must say, the points that C&B put forward don't make a great deal of sense to me. I'm wouldn't agree that converting a JAA ATPL to an Aussie one is an easy way of by-passing (no relation ;) ) the Aussie system.

As for the companies themselves, the only reason for asking how someone got their ATPL would seem to be a political one. If someone has a legal ATPL already, why in the good Lords name would they want to go back and do the ATPL subjects again, unless, they were asked to by their employer who wouldn't want them to take the exams anyway because then they might lose one of their employees!?!? Hope Global TM is right.

I'm now going to go and put a cold compress on my overheated brow...

Cheers,

LP

[Global TM]

Low-Pass,
I have spoken to a few HR managers, and to their credit they were extremely helpful and willing to spend a couple of minutes of their time, and what I was told is that if one has experience gained on their foreign licence then they are not viewed as by-passers of the system and there will be no need for one to sit all 7 subjects after they have an Aus ATPL issued on the basis of sitting Air Law alone.
One only has to sit Air Law and that is that.
The way one HR person put it was:’’ Are the training providers the airlines themselves? No, so do not loose sleep over what they tell you’’.

It makes sense and good on them for being able to see the wood from the trees.

Global TM

[Crash & Burn]

Low Pass - If you re-read my post you'll see I said that pilots obtain a US ATPL (not JAR) to 'bypass' the Aussie ATPL.

In regards to the question - Why would you resit the aussie ATPL exams?

The scenario that I have seen had an aussie pilot go overseas to get an ATPL in the US and then came back to Australia, sat the airlaw exam and got an aussie ATPL.

Having heard a rumour that Virgin Airlines frowned upon people who went to the US and bypassed the Aussie system said pilot then went to sit the 7 aussie subjects - failed one and consequently had his aussie ATPL pulled until he passed all 7 exams!