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rover2701
10th Mar 2002, 16:16
It is with much trepidation that I post this thread. It may encroach on Danny's no religion rule and be pulled by him. . .However here goes. . .I recently lost my soul mate and lover. She was only 52 and it was sudden and unexpected. Since that time I have been desperately searching for answers if there is an afterlife and will we be together when its my turn to die? . .I am aware that this will be a subject of much controversy but I think it would help me through this difficult time if I could have some heartfelt views and maybe some experiences.. .I have had a very useful and heartfelt talk with a fellow pruner who gave me some excellent advice and for that I thank her(she knows who she is).. .If anyone feels they can help me please post or maybe e-mail me. I am desperately unhappy.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 22:08: Message edited by: rover2701 ]</small>

the wizard of auz
10th Mar 2002, 16:25
Well Rover, I hope so......and I hope all the good mates and family that I have lost will be going to the same place that I am so I can be reunited with them as well.. .I aint religious, but we gotta believe something and that is as nice as anything else I could think of to believe in.. .I hope pets are excepted into an afterlife thingy too as some of my best mates were dogs and much nicer than alot of people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Tartan Gannet
10th Mar 2002, 16:42
Rover, my mother passed away 9 months ago today. With my Father I was at her bedside in hospital as she left this life. She was unconscious all this time having succumbed to her third and final stroke. . .. .Now in her case she was 85, and had been suffering from the ravages of Alzheimer's for the previous 5 years or so. She was totally incapable of looking after herself and had in the end regressed to the situation of a child of about one year old if that. Death was a merciful release and I felt that she had been freed from the chains which bound her. I got the grieving process over very quickly indeed.. .. .My father alas has a very different take on this. Unlike me he is bound to organised religion and all the guilt feelings it engenders. Today, especially it being Mothers Day here in the UK, he will be in deep grief. I have to say that they had been married 55 years and had seldom been out of each other's sight. Unlike modern couples they had no separate interests as such and, in the Biblical sense had indeed "Cleft to each other as one flesh".. .. .Although as a divorcee I cannot truly appreciate my father's sense of loss I can sympathise with him and comfort him as best I can.. .. .So with yourself, Rover, I can only give you my sincere sympathy. I wont repeat the trite mantra "Time will heal" IT DOESNT! If such a severe loss is felt I doubt if the person ever really comes to terms with it.. .. .As said, I am NOT an adherent to any of the organised religions although I am a nominal Anglican (Episcopalian), and was brought up in the Christian Ethos. I DO however believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God and that the human sprit lives on after death. . .. .What lies on the other side I do not pretend to know. Few of us living are ever afforded a glimpse of what lies the other side of that veil.. .. .All I can really say to you is to treasure the happy times you both had together and when in grief to ask yourself, what would they have wanted me to do in this situation? I have said this to my Father as I know that my late Mother, a very down to earth and pragmatic person, would have been most annoyed with him sitting around feeling sorry for himself rather than enjoying the years he has left.. .. .In conclusion, Rover, I wish you peace and a relief from the sorrow you are feeling. I believe that the spirit (soul if you wish) of your late partner lives on but as to how, when and if you will be reunited with them, alas I cannot say.

Skytrucker87
10th Mar 2002, 16:55
Rover,. .. .I sincerely hope that this thread does not get deleted. I also suffered the loss of my mother (aged 96) very recently but I took comfort from a statement made in a novel.. .. ."You haven't lost her, you just won't see her again.". .. .I sincerely hope that there is something to follow. There are so many things I didnt ever get around to saying.

Huck
10th Mar 2002, 18:29
To rover2701-. .. .I am truly sorry for your loss. My grandma used to say, "there's nothing like a death." Hang in there, as best you can.. .. .And it's quite alright to lean on the religion of your choice at this time. That's what they're there for. As I am the original backsliding Methodist, I am far from an expert, but I do go there for comfort when I can.. .. .As to being together again, whether it be loved ones or pets, my opinion is that it wouldn't be Heaven without them!

HugMonster
10th Mar 2002, 19:04
Rover, my heartfelt condolences on your loss.. .. .As to your main question, I have no idea at all whether or not there is an afterlife.. .. .I do, however, believe there is. What it will be like, I can't begin to wrap my head around. I do, though believe that it will provide everything we need to be blissfully happy.. .. .One of the main reasons I believe in an afterlife is to make sense of this life. Without that, what are we here for? Why do we have consciousness and self-consciousness? Without something beyond death, what possible purpose is there in us being here?. .. .Like TG, I lost my mother in recent years, also suffering the ravages of Alzheimer's. My father is just waiting to join her, looking forward like nothing else to seeing her again.. .. .As for your loss, in the meantime I suggest you just give thanks for the time you had together. It was obviously good - otherwise you would not miss her so. Be thankful for what you had - and have not lost, since you still have the memory of times together.. .. .My mother is still very much with me. I often find her looking over my shoulder, passing comments on what I'm doing. Just silly little things, like how I'm peeling the potatoes, whatever. But she's with me, and what she gave me continues - I'll always have her help and advice.. .. .How you use your memories is up to you. Whilst not suggesting for one moment that you would do so, it is easy to descend into a wallowing mass of self-pity. What is harder is to use what she gave you, and use it to your benefit, and that of others. Use the love you've been given. Remember that she would want you to be happy. Find a way to be what she would want of you.

Brit Abroad
10th Mar 2002, 19:23
Rover. .. .First of all, let me offer my condolences. This must be a very difficult time for you.. .. .I agree with Hugmonster. I am not particularly religious, but I believe there is more to it than simply being born, living and then dying a while later. It just wouldn't make sense would it ? . .. .Best wishes.

KayGridley
10th Mar 2002, 19:50
Rover like everyone else first let me pass my condolences to you.. .. .Personally I agree with HugMonster. I'm not a practicing christian in any sense of the phrase, but I definatly believe there is something more to life. I can still hear my grandparents talking to me, even if its just a memory that pops up when I most need it.. .. .Rover what I choose to believe is that the people you love never truely leave you, you just have to relearn how to see and hear them. Certainly as you call her your soul mate. For me, I know my soulmate is somewhere, just I don't know who they are yet. Same for you, I believe they don't go, they're a part of you, even if all you can feel is them in your heart.. .. .Hope you find what you are looking for Rover, but no matter what you aren't alone.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 14:51: Message edited by: LadyWafu ]</small>

rover2701
10th Mar 2002, 20:54
Thankyou everyone for the replies so far.. .I must tell you all I have no regrets about things left unsaid between us. There wasnt a day went by when we didnt declare our love to each other and even when we had our differences they were quickly and mostly pleasurably made up. . .I feel angry and cheated at the same time. . .I feel as if I have been robbed of what should have been the best years of our lives together. I know there is possibly no answer, but I sometimes feel her close to me. . .I so want to be with her, and if I thought it was a certainty I would be with her in death, I would join her now. I know that sounds a bit dramatic but it is how I feel.. .Thankyou everyone once again for your kind words, they do give me some comfort at this time.

KayGridley
10th Mar 2002, 23:23
Rover its not at all dramatic what you're saying, its how you're feeling. Just keep hold of that feeling and the thought that there would be a lot of people missing you if you joined her now.. .. .I know it doesn't help or make it feel any better, sorry. Just remember there are people thinking of you

Kalium Chloride
11th Mar 2002, 04:01
Rover,. .. .Forgive me if this reply seems hopelessly inadequate, but your opening statement touched a chord.. .. .Earlier this week I found myself worrying about how I would cope if my partner departed this life before me.. .. .What I gradually came to realise was how much more afraid I was that the reverse would happen -- that she would be the one left to face the pain and unhappiness, without my being physically around to reassure her that everything would be OK.. .. .That she follows her faith strongly and firmly believes in an afterlife, hardly enters my mind.. .. .We're all borrowed from God, someone once told me. I don't know which of us He'll want back first. Of course I hope that we'll check out together, peacefully in the same bed at an obscenely old age...but I'll willingly go through the pain of separation if I can draw comfort from the knowledge that she'll never have to.. .. .It's an odd way to say how much you care. Yet when I told her as much, she didn't look at me strangely. She simply smiled and said she'd be my guardian angel if I promised to do the same.. .. .Your partner will never be without you in this life, Rover. And in my heart I sincerely believe you'll be together again. Just not yet.

Eric
11th Mar 2002, 04:11
Rover,. .. .So sorry about your loss.. .. .Re-reading your posts after reading this thread throws a new light on them.. .. ."What's the point?" must seem like a mantra going through your mind at the moment.. .. .To have so much taken away so soon and so early must be a devastating blow.. .. .You know we're all thinking of you in your sorrow.

Huck
11th Mar 2002, 04:17
One of my favorite songs is recorded by Allison Krauss - an old bluegrass tune about leaving this world before your spouse - I think it's called "Banks of Jordan" or something. Here's the chorus-. .. .I'll be waiting on the far-side bank of Jordan,. .I'll be waiting, drawing pictures in the sand.. .And when I hear you coming, I will rise up with a shout,. .And come running through the shallow water, reaching for your hand....

HugMonster
11th Mar 2002, 04:21
Rover, if there's one thing I AM certain about, it's that we were not put here to be selfish, but to reach out to other people, to contribute to their lives and, if there is a way, to improve them, by however little we can.. .. .Your partner clearly did so for you, and you for her. I appreciate you have these feelings right now, and nobody can be told to stop feeling anything on command.. .. .Think instead what she would want you to do - what she would want for you. You think she'd be glad to see you, knowing what potential you have, and would leave unfulfilled? Would it make her proud of you? I suspect not.. .. .Please avoid the temptation to selfishness. Use what she gave you - pass it on to others. Touch their lives, perhaps not in the way she touched yours, but with the same love.. .. .There's never enough love in the world to go around. Please pass it on.

Davaar
11th Mar 2002, 05:32
Rover, in 1 Corinthians 15 St Paul asks these questions and tries to answer them. He succeeds, but imperfectly.. .. .My own greatest loss was of my father, a few years ago. Not a day goes past, but I think of him. I see some book and I think: "I'll buy that and send it to Dad, he'll enjoy that one", or I come across something that will amuse him or bring him enjoyment. Then I realise as a second thought, almost after a pause: "I can't. Not any more". And then I think: "But so long as he comes like this, unbidden, he is right here with me. If he were far away and forgotten, and had forgotten me, I'd never think of him", and so instead of having nothing but loss, I have his presence, not in the body, of course, but certainly in the spirit; right here and now, without waiting for the resurrection. It seems to me your lady still lives, while she is so much with you.

Slasher
11th Mar 2002, 08:24
Yeh Rover as much as we'd all like to believe theres continuance of being after death especialy at times like this, unfortunatley in my research and experience theres no such thing. Full sympathys for your recent loss but she'll live on as long as her memory isnt forgotten. I am humble enough though to realise Im not the final authority as Ive never died and come back. Im simpley passing on an informed opinion.. .. .Again sorry to hear of your loss. Been there myself a few times. But Id rather the hard truth than a comforting fantasey.

rover2701
11th Mar 2002, 14:59
Slasher.. .Although you hold those views and you may be right. I cant believe that the purpose of our existence is just to procreate the species.. .I would prefer to hold on to the belief that there is a higher plane we go to after this life or else whats the point.. .It gives me more comfort believing I will be with my beloved Jan at the point of my death and she will be there to guide me, and we will be together for all eternity.. .The nothingness of everlasting sleep is cold and barren. Mankind is worth more than that,

Slasher
12th Mar 2002, 02:04
Ok if it gives you comfort it gives you comfort. Im not tryin to start a p!ssin contest here. Just stated an informed opinion thats all.

redsnail
12th Mar 2002, 03:05
Rover, my sincerest condolences to you. I don't know about this afterlife thing. Kerry Packer knows.. .Your beloved lives on with you every time you think of her. That is how you will meet her again.. .. .It's hard yakka facing the day, to cheer yourself up, think about getting Danny in your court for speeding or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

brockenspectre
12th Mar 2002, 03:41
My mother died after battling cancer 5 months ago in her 80s. She was the most vibrant, amusing and neat person I have had the honour to know. Since her death I have been very sad .. happy to memorialise her ... joyful to remember the best of her. All I can "know" is that she is near me sometimes. The mother of a little girl who was a neighbour to my mother told me of a dream her little daughter had and .. it was so vivid and so much how my mother would have liked to be seen and would have been .. I can't say it wasn't real...so, she hasn't fixed for me to win the Lottery (she said she would try) but .. I do smell her perfume .. do smell her favourite flowers .. see her in almost everything I do that is out of "ordinary" .. so who is dead? My mother isn't .. she is in everything ... and as someone said so long as you remember the person so they live <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Doesn't mean I don't get sad and cry at my loss but that is cos I am selfish and thinking of me .... tears do that you know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

PaperTiger
12th Mar 2002, 04:08
This is the eternal question, the essence of humanity.. .. .I feel you already have your answer Rover, yet seek some confirmation or proof. Alas there is none. It is a conclusion, a decision each of us must reach in our own particular way.. .. .To many it is intuitive. Others search for a resolution through philosophy, religion, logic, metaphysics and the thousand variations contained therein. And some never succeed in reaching a satisfactory resolution. The depth and diligence of the quest defines who we are to a large extent.. .. .If it's any comfort at this time, I am quite sure a poll of the world's population would reveal that the number of those who believe in some form of perpetual existence far exceeds the number who do not.

laydown
12th Mar 2002, 04:47
Condolences on your loss.. .. .It appears to me impossible to prove either way if there is an afterlife or not. So the way I decide in the mean time is to ask the question, which is more likely? . .. .Are we a. reincarnated b. go to the so called 'heaven' c. go to the so called 'hell' d. hang around as so called 'ghosts' e. go somewhere else eg a 'higher plane' f. something else happens (add your own idea of an afterlife or one of the millions of others offered by the millions of religions and new age movements out there).. .. .OR the other alternative is we die and get buried or cremated and that's it. . .. .I prefer to believe we die and that's it. Sure it's very comforting to believe in one of the many afterlife options but I believe it gives you false hope. Of course you have every right to believe in whatever you want, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. Some people still believe the earth is flat but this doesn't make it right (of course I recognise the fact that I might be wrong).. .. .As to the 'spirit' business that people talk about, I believe that a persons 'spirit' is their personality. A persons 'spirit' is produced by their brain. Without a brain there is no spirit and no person. Take away important parts of the brain and you will either die or become a vegetable. Nothing of the previous persons spirit or personality will remain. This then leads on to when you die, your brain dies and eventually decomposes or is cremated into ash. Therefore with the brain gone, there is no person, no personality and therefore no spirit.. .. .So, I believe the most simple explanation is usually the correct one, or Occams Razor as it is called (sorry if I spelt it wrong, couldn't find it in the dictionary).. .. .I have come to these conclusions based on the evidence for the alternatives that we have to date. Again, I do realise that it is very hard to get evidence for an afterlife.. .. .If anyone is wondering I lost my mother to Cancer when I was 20, I am now 31. I have never heard her 'talk' to me, I have never felt her 'presence'. Every now and then (perhaps once a year) I have a dream where she is still alive. Of course my Aunt who is very religious and believes in many 'new age/unproven' things, says she feels her presence and talks to her all the time. Why would my mother choose not to talk to her son and choose to talk to her sister in-law? I think it has something to do with what you believe and create inside your own mind. When I die, I'd love to believe I'll see my mum again, but the harsh reality is that I don't think I will, I will be cremated, my ashes spread over some garden somewhere and complete the circle of life by fertilizing a few plants and trees.. .. .As to the argument 'there must be something more to life than procreation'. Who says? Just because we are intelligent enough to ask the question doesn't mean that there must be some higher purpose. Eventually the Earth will be consumed by the Sun as it either grows and collapses or explodes into a super nova (that's if we don't destroy it ourselves in the mean time)! What's going to be the higher purpose then? . .. .We've got to make the most of the life we have now. It's too late when you're dead.. .. .You have suffered a sad loss but life goes on. My Father remarried after my Mother died and is leading a very happy life with his new wife.. .. .Well, that feels better now that's off my chest!. .. .Flame suit on!. .. .PS In the future, should irrefutable evidence be produced for an afterlife then I stand to be corrected.

laydown
12th Mar 2002, 05:07
To pick on what PaperTiger said (no offence intended, many people use this false logic)relying on an opinion poll proves nothing. An opinion poll is useful to find out who might win an election but an opinion poll does not deem whether a fact is true or not.. .. .An example. .Q How far do you think the moon is from the earth?. .A. xxxxx KM B. xxxxxxxxxxx KM C. YYYYYYYYYY KM.. .. .It doesn't matter if 62% got the incorrect answer A. the distance of the moon from the earth is a certain distance and no opinion poll will change that fact.. .. .Similarly, about 60% of Americans believe in angels, and I'm sure a large percentage if Indians believe in an Elephant spirit, and many Aboriginals believe Ayers Rock was formed in the Dreamtime by a spirit that they believe in. While they have every right to believe what they want, a poll means nothing in deciding a fact.. .. .Of course most people will believe in an afterlife. It's a comforting thought at the time of the death of a loved one and it hides the reality of our own mortality. . .. .Whether or not they are right needs to be decided with evidence.

PaperTiger
12th Mar 2002, 07:14
When there is no evidence either way, other approaches need to be employed. How much weight the various factors are given is of course a personal decision. One may choose to discount the common consensus, or one may wish to set great store by it. Can 4 billion people be wrong ? Yes.. .For the undecided, is there succour in subscribing to the popular view ? Probably.. .. .Personally, I rather favour the American Beauty option (with a nod to Nietzsche).

Checkboard
12th Mar 2002, 09:40
Rover, I too am sorry for your loss, and the grief you feel.. .. .Take a look at a blank page,. .You will fail to see anything.. .. .Draw a picture of a bird on that page,. .and the picture is obvious, yet the space. .defined by those lines existed all the time.. .. .It is the boundaries that define an object.. .It is the boundary of birth and death that define life,. .and without those boundaries,. .then we could not know that life existed.. .. .When you taste the bitterness of grief,. .at the very least it shows you how sweet. .the life you held dear was.

rover2701
12th Mar 2002, 15:10
laydown,. .I understand your logic implicitly. And as an ex engineer and now a law student, logic does rule my life pretty well.. .However some happenings do defy explanation. Now I am not saying I am right and there is an afterlife, who knows except the dead. I do have faith though that there is more to this life than being born, living and dying.. .Another point. Maybe your Mother does talk to you but you are not receptive to the dead, so can't hear what she has to say, and that your Aunt is receptive and so hears her.. .I must admit at times I do feel Jans presence but that may be my imagination. I would like to think otherwise.. .The reason I asked the question originaly was to get all views not to debunk what I didnt want to hear. Maybe death is final and there is nothing but on the other hand there may be a glorious afterlife. I know which I would prefer to believe in.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:12: Message edited by: rover2701 ]</small>

Tartan Gannet
12th Mar 2002, 15:45
This is a sad and sensitive topic and it would be easy to give unintentional hurt when expressing a sincere and honest opinion.. .. .For myself, as stated before ,my Mother died on June 10th 2001. Now for 5 years before that she had progressively deteriorated under the ravages of Alzheimers. In the end she was speechless, bedridden, doubly incontinent. I when she drew her last breath I felt that the vibrant personality (spirit, soul) that had been this little lady had been released from its chains. In effect to my mind my Mother had died as a person years before when she no longer recognised me or my father and could no longer communicate with us or others. The terminal event on that afternoon was merely the body joining her damaged brain. Now that was my stance. My father feels differently. His grief was intense and demonstrable, unlike myself he is an emotional and romantic person who exteriorises his feelings. I am cyncial and pragmatic and keep things to myself . He still feels great grief and pain at his loss, nine months after the event.. .. .Now I feel that the spirit of my mother has gone on to another plain. I cannot prove this in any way, I can but hope and like others have posted it is totally meaningless if we are merely here to procreate the species, (If this is the case I have failed in that duty having had a vasectomy in order never to beget children, but that's another topic). As far as we are aware we are the only species aware of itself in a time line and not merely in real time immediate mode. (perhaps Dolphins can do this, maybe the higher primates, but as we cannot yet communicate with them we cannot tell.) We also can record our thoughts, art, music, philosophy, and our works live on after our deaths. To my mind it would be such a waste if all of this is but dross and the spirit (personality) dies as the body decomposes to be lost forever.. .. .Now as regards my mother, I do NOT ever expect to see her again nor do I hope for this. The entity I knew as my Mother has ended that incarnation, wherever her spirit has gone I will NOT see it again nor should I according to my beliefs. That play is over the actress who was my Mum may play another role in the future, just as Olivier may have been Hamlet in one drama, and Richard III in another, but still being Laurence Olivier ceased to act those roles when he divested himself of the makeup and costume. Thus in my beliefs the human spirit or soul goes on to play another role in another life.. .. .My Father being of a more conventional religious belief hopes and believes that he WILL be rejoined with his late wife, my Mother, in some afterlife when he dies. I have kept my views to myself as he derives comfort from his beliefs in this matter.. .. .I read once that, as long as a dead person's name is still spoken by someone, somewhere, they are not truely dead. So if we retain the memory and love of a departed friend, relative or partner and speak their name, to us they live on.. .. .Rover, I again give you my sympathy in your time of grief, but as you have happy memories of your late partner, cherish these and take joy and comfort from the times you shared. God be with you in your time of sorrow.. .. .TG. .. .BTW Rover, if you wish, I will happily give you my e-mail address should you feel that any benefit would come of contacting me directly.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:52: Message edited by: tartan gannet ]</small>

Slasher
12th Mar 2002, 16:00
Yeh good points laydown. I would "prefer" to believe theres an afterlife, but the harsh reality Ive discovered over 20 odd years of exhaustive research is evidence to the contrary. Born, living, and dying is not so much a cycle of life but a cycle of existence. And this cycle does not have to be in harmony with the hopes and ambitions of any particular life species such as humans. As a rationalist hard truths are always dificult to initialy accept especialy those ones which challenge or disprove cherished and very comforting beliefs. Like you Im always open and receptive to any further pragmatic evidence of an afterlife, but not subjective "must bes" and "I prefers" nor any popularist thinking that happens to be in vogue with the masses at the time. They do nothing to find out the true facts.

redsnail
12th Mar 2002, 17:20
Checkers, thank you for sharing that. Beautiful thoughts.. .. .My dad was an atheist and so am I. Is there something after? No idea really. All I know is that when I was doing my second round of ATPL exams in Glasgow a huge rainbow appeared. I had just finished 2 exams and had one more to do and then it would be over. The invigilator commented to me that "the rainbow is a lucky sign". It is probably coincidence, I too have a science background. My dad was from Glasgow and he'd passed away 2 months before. Either way, I did get some comfort from it, then the sun appeared as I was walking back to the station. Result? yep, passed them all.. .. .Losing someone dear to you hurts. No doubt about it. Losing someone when you are so far from home is very tough. Your sense of loss is heightened by your sense of isolation. It's not like you can share anecdotes about the person with any one because they don't know them. However, either way, the person that has departed this world would never want you to grieve or be sad for a single moment longer than you have to be.. .My Dad never said that I had to stay to look after Mum. Mum would never have allowed it any way. I admire her strength and courage.. .. .Is there an after life? Who knows? Is there life now? Yes! In my very humble opinion the best and most honourable way to remember the one that has gone is to live your life. Celebrate that life.. .. .Rover, I apologise for rambling about my loss. My thoughts to you.

laydown
13th Mar 2002, 05:19
PaperTiger, you say there is no evidence either way. . .. .There is plenty of evidence that you die, are buried/cremated and that's it. Go to your local graveyard for this evidence.. .. .There is little evidence to suggest any kind of afterlife. The little evidence there is comes from near death experiences which can probably be explained by the effects of oxygen starvation on the brain. These near death experiences can be replicated using psychedelic drugs. Other 'evidence' is not evidence as such but based on the hopes and wishes that people have about the afterlife. Remember the human brain is very suceptible to errors in logic, observation and memory.. .. .As to the evidence of reincarnation, it is based on anecdotal evidence which either lacks sufficient detail to enable investigation, or where investigation is possible, doesn't stand up to scrutiny.. .. .The burden of proof for an afterlife lies with those claiming an afterlife. If I claim I have a pet pink elephant in my garage is it up to you to disprove that this exists? No, the burden of proof lies with me to prove that I have it in the garage. And unless I can show you this elephant I'm sure you won't believe me that it exists. In the absence of this proof I can't/won't believe in an afterlife.. .. .You ask, 'can 4 billion people be wrong'? Of course they can. If you asked the earth's population a few hundred years ago 'Is the earth the centre of the universe with all the planets and stars revolving around it?', most would have said a resounding YES. In general, most of the 6 billion inhabitants of the earth are poorly educated and have little or no understanding of the functions of the brain and the evolution of the universe. . .. .In his book "How we Believe" Micheal Shermer states '90-95% of Americans are believers in god and an afterlife'. Also from his book - Studies have shown among the general scientific population, belief is about 40%. Among eminint scientists who are members of the National Academy of Sciences belief drops to a paltry 7%.. .. .Of course if you polled theologically trained people you would get a totally different result. An interesting explanation for this is given by Andrew Greeley, a sociologist from the University of Chicago, he says (from Shermer's book) "'In a competetive religious marketplace the clergy must work hard at what they are supposed to be doing: preaching a message of hope in the face of the tragedies of life.' Clearly religion plays an important role in society that has not been filled by secular institutions, and since none have ever offered a "product" competitive with life after death, belief in god and religiosity has increased as a market response.". .. .Rover, you remarked 'However some happenings do defy explanation.' Sure some happenings defy your explanation but just because you can't explain some particular happening doesn't mean someone else, such as a psychologist or biologist can't. Some weather phenomena are extremely rare and unusual and would defy explanation to all except a few highly specialised meterologists. . .. .You say that you have faith that there is more to life than being born, living and dying. I respect your belief in this but remember that the definition of 'faith' in the dictionary is 'strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp. without proof'. You may be happy to live without this proof, but I'm not.. .. .I am giving you my view on an afterlife by attempting to debunk conventional views on an afterlife. No offence is intended to anyone, I'm just giving you my opinions and the reasoning behind them.. .. .About me not being 'receptive' to my dead mother talking to me, surely if she could talk to me she would. The 'not receptive' arguement to me is just an excuse. A 'mind reader' who is tested (and fails) under subjective conditions uses the excuse that the person they were trying to read was 'not receptive' to their mind reading, this is just an excuse to cover the fact that they can't really read minds without using tricks commonly known to professional magicians. If you believe that a dead person will talk to you then your brain will create the talking for you. . .. .And finally to redsnail, I too lost my mother before my ATPL exams, I was sitting there during the Flight Planning exam, frantically trying to finish in time, no rainbow, to 'talking' no 'presence' from her. I passed because I worked hard to learn and understand the subject being examined. Redsnail, you passed your exams because of the hard work that you put into the study beforehand, not because your father caused a cloud to float past the window and drop some rain which in turn refracted the sunlight to cause a rainbow. It was a coincidence that the rainbow was there and you passed because you put the hard work in. . .. .Coincidences happen all the time. Out of a population of 6 billion people, if coincidences like this didn't happen all the time I'd be worried. If the chances of something happening to someone today are a million to one, then with 6 billion people on the earth we would expect it to happen to 6000 people today. Nothing wierd or freaky about that if you ask me, but of course it will 'feel' wierd and freaky to the people involved.. .. .Sorry to ramble on but I find this an interesting subject and hope to at least get you all thinking about the more mundane explanations for this topic. I do realise however that I'm not going to change anyone's beliefs here.. .. .That's up to you.

laydown
13th Mar 2002, 06:06
pprune wont' let me log in to edit my mistakes in the above post. . .. .When I said 'subjective conditions' I should have said 'objective conditions'. . .. .and 'to talking' should be 'no talking'

PaperTiger
13th Mar 2002, 12:17
&gt;There is plenty of evidence that you die,. .Yes.. .. .&gt;are buried/cremated. .Yes.. .. .&gt;and that's it.. .No, no empirical evidence.. .. .&gt;Go to your local graveyard for this evidence.. .That's where the bodies or remains are. Which is not what we're discussing. Of course if one does not believe in the soul, then I suppose that would be evidence enough.. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 07:19: Message edited by: PaperTiger ]</small>

rover2701
13th Mar 2002, 20:22
TG . .thanks for the offer of your e-mail address and I would like to take you up on it if the offer is still open. . .At the moment I am having a hard time coming to terms with my loss and the huge gap she has left in my life. Maybe you can help me. I have considered bereavment counselling but have discounted it for personal reasons. I am afraid no one can give me a satisfactory answers to my questions.. .However talking to someone comparitively anonymous may be what I need. So please, yes I would like to talk to you privately. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 15:23: Message edited by: rover2701 ]</small>

Who has control?
13th Mar 2002, 20:51
Is there an afterlife?. .. .I do hope so, I want to see my Dad again & tell him I've done in the last 12 years since he died.. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 15:55: Message edited by: Who has control? ]</small>

Foss
13th Mar 2002, 21:45
Was out on the razzle at the weekend and went to call a climbing mate because some of us were planning a weekend away walking. But he might have had trouble turning up because he died in a climbing fall last winter. Sad, but I smiled. He would have called me a stupid T**t.. .C'mon Harper, chop, chop.

Steepclimb
13th Mar 2002, 22:35
I tend to agree with laydown and Slasher on this. But I wouldn't try to explain away everything with logic and science.. .I no longer believe in an afterlife even though I have had one or two experiences which lead me to believe that there is a spiritual aspect to our lives but in an internal human way.. .We would all like there to be an afterlife but realistically it makes no sense. Why should we as individuals continue to exist on some form of existential plane? We all believe we are special in some way and deserve immortality. But in the overall scheme of things we are in fact nothing. Think about it, what makes you so special compared to say, someone who lived, to pick a random example in Mongolia in 1539? Nothing in fact. We are not special except to ourselves and our loved ones, if any. Most of us have no problems believing that animals have no afterlife but retain the right to believe we deserve one, at least on the ground of consciousness. We all happily ignore the complete and utter lack of evidence.. .The best example I can give for believing that death is the end comes from being under anaesthetic in hospital. There are no dreams, no light at the end of the tunnel just a blink between the injection and waking up in bed after surgery. Like a scene in a film you can't spot the join. If I died on the operating table that would have been it. That's one of the reasons I would be very reluctant to kill myself, frankly bad as things get it's a lot better than nothing at all. . .. .In truth we can be immortal in once sense, by having children. For survival of the species the imperative is to procreate. It's brutal but it's a fact. I have no children so have failed that test but I see it in my nephews and nieces. I can see my Father, Mother, sisters and brothers in law's, faces and characteristics in those children. My brother looks and acts like my late Father. . .So we can be immortal but not as individuals. . .If you still believe in an afterlife, think of cloning or identical twins. A copy of you is not you. Your consciousness cannot be in two places at once. . .. .I really want to believe there is some form of life after death. I think it's particularly sad that it ends just like that because ultimately your own life is pointless for you. Whether you live a good or bad life it all ends the same way. You only exist after that as a memory or in whatever genes you passed on.. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 17:41: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]</small>

Celtic Emerald
13th Mar 2002, 23:30
Ah rover 2701. .. .You poor sweet. My heart went out to you when I read your last post. I lost my father nearly 4 years ago but mind you it didn't hurt as much as my mother cause I lost her at a very vulnerable age & my father lived to be a very old age so I didn't feel cheated, just as well with all my vulturous relations circling around <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .From my point of view, I feel personally it's hard for me to decipher whether there is an afterlife cause I was so brainwashed by religion I have to sort the wheat from the chaff. I tend to feel personally that the body is mortal and when you go to visit a grave all that's there is the empty vessel that contained the spirit of your loved one, but the real person, the soul, the spiritual being call it what you may isn't there & is immortal, cannot be destroyed and lives on in some other dimension, call it an afterlife if you will but what form it takes I've no idea. Some people claim to have near death experiences & see brilliant lights & feel a great sense of peace & not wanting to return though medical experts argue there may be a scientific explanation for these feelings. Others feel so called ghostly experiences are people who died in a traumatic way & haven't fully wrenched themselves from their earthly life cause of the nature of their death or unfinished business. So perhaps this proves there's an afterlife, it's hard to know for sure till one crosses over the other side, it's a question of faith more than anything. . .. .But the one thing I know is that your parent is at peace and at rest now free from the hurdles of this earthly existence.. .. .Hope in time you come to terms with your loss. .. .Love. .. .Emerald. .. .PS: Reddo, sorry to hear you're father passed away. Hope you're coping well luv.. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 18:33: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]</small>

rover2701
13th Mar 2002, 23:49
Celtic Emerald. .Thankyou for your kind words. However I must point out it wasnt a parent that I lost but my soul mate lover and partner. She died suddenly with a Brain Hemorrhage and was only 52. . .She had been diagnosed in Jan 2001 with leukemia but was in remission after her very difficult treatment with Chemo Therapy, and we were looking forward too many years together. However it was not to be.. .I have been desperately looking for answers since then.. .I had never given much thought to the afterlife before this happening, but I love her so much. I am trying to find out all I can, and thought that this forum with diversity of opinions could maybe provide me with some answers.. .Once again thankyou for your kind words.

flapsforty
14th Mar 2002, 00:54
Rover, condolences on your loss.. .Can well understand your quest for answers here; life becomes pointless without hope and grey without love, does it not?. .. .My views on the afterlife are like Slasher's; no need to go into them.. .. .What made losing 2 people I very much loved somehwat more bearable was the fact that we had shared a lot when they were still alive.. .Love, laughter, heartache and joy. Expressed in words and in deeds. . .Carpe diem, only way of life that works for me.. .. .Reading your posts about life with Jan, it seems you both lived life realising it was special; that the the fact you had found eachother was to be cherished. . .Your eloquence here leads me to think you might have been the kind of lover who told his woman how much she meant to him.. .Showed his love in many different ways, made his appreciaton of her presence in his life heard and felt.. .. .Perhaps a measure of consolation to be found in that?

Mac the Knife
14th Mar 2002, 01:17
In her 1969 book, On Death and Dying, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross identifies five distinct phases which a dying person encounters. These are "denial," "anger," "bargaining," "depression," and finally, "acceptance." These are the same stages that are experienced by those mourning the loss of a loved one.. .. .Please don't discount the value of bereavement couselling - I found it invaluable after struggling for ages on my own. My wise and compassionate counsellor taught me that my reactions were an expression on my humanity and helped me to bring to the surface many emotions that I did not comprehend and that would have made me mixed-up forever if I had not started to deal with them.. .. .As for an afterlife; most of the tips and tricks that I pass on to trainees were taught to me by my teachers. Many of these were taught to them by THEIR teachers and so on backwards into time. When I hear a senior trainee passing on one of "my" tips/tricks to a junior I then remember that it was Oliver who taught that particular dodge to me and he once told me that Eric had taught it to him. And so on.. .. .I guess that the lessons on life and living that we pass on are, in a sense, the "spirit" of our own teachers or parents or friends that lives on through us and that we are in our turn pass on while adding our own small contribution.. .. .To me that is a expression of what afterlife means and any additions that I may have made must be my own small immortality.. .. .Deepest condolences from MTK

rover2701
14th Mar 2002, 05:35
Thanks Flaps. .Tears in my eyes make it difficult to type. You hit the nail on the head.

Blacksheep
14th Mar 2002, 06:46
Rover,. .. .Lost my Mum forty three years ago when she was only thirty three and I was ten. There's never a day when I don't think about her at least once but now all the memories are happy ones. Believe me the pain does go away eventually, but the good memories are for ever. . .. .**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

Tartan Gannet
14th Mar 2002, 14:46
Rover, I have no problem giving you my e-mail but you dont have yours on your profile either to contact you. . .. .I have given mine to some individual posters here such as Hug Monster, Davaar, Send Clowns, Flaps Forty, as I know they wont abuse it. Alas, as recent events on PPrune proved, some people DO flame others via their home e-mail, the nasty image sent by one person to HM being an example. Once published anyone could access it and I would have to change it. . .. .For that reason I have not put my e-mail on my profile but have no objection to you contacting say Hug Monster and asking him to give you the details should you wish to contact me on your recent personal tragedy.. .. .Although I have not had need of bereavement counselling such as CRUSE myself, I do know that this has benefitted many who mourn, so perhaps this would help you.. .. .Again my best wishes to you in this troubled time.. .. .TG

HugMonster
14th Mar 2002, 17:06
No probs in principle with that, TG and rover.. .. .Unfortunately a slight prob in execution, in that I have TG's email on my main machine which is tech at present - AOG awaiting new EEPROM.. .. .TG, can you email me again so I have your email addie on my laptop?

JudyTTexas
15th Mar 2002, 11:59
Rover, I'm very sorry to read about your loss. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .I lost my dad when I was 16 and my husband who was only 47. Both were sudden. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind there is an afterlife. . .. .To expound on "why" I know would take pages to write. An excellent book I have read (aside from my biblical belief) is called "Life after Life" by Dr. Raymond A. Moody. Jr. M.D.. .. .I also can include my personal experience which began my journey for seeking answers. Everyone. .has their own concept regarding "The End". However, I am at peace believing it is "The Beginning". . .. ....to be continued. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 07:00: Message edited by: JudyTTexas ]</small>

rover2701
15th Mar 2002, 15:55
TG. .have now put my e-mail address on my profile. So drop me a line will be glad to here from you. (hope I dont get any oddballs mailing me). .. .Judy. .thankyou for your kind words. I have been trying to find information on the internet, but having a hard time sorting out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. There seems to be a lot of nuts out there, and finding someone who has a half sensible arguement and information is difficult to find. I will try and get the book you suggested, hope its published in the UK. Will let you know how I get on.. .. .Once again everyone who has contributed so far I thankyou. It has been interesting reading others thoughts and beliefs. I think it really is down to ones particular faith in what we are in the grand scheme of things I guess. I just hope that I will meet Jan after my death, but if not I still treasure and thank the creator(if he exists) for every second I had the privilage of being in her life.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 11:05: Message edited by: rover2701 ]</small>

laydown
16th Mar 2002, 11:07
PeperTiger replied to me:. .. .&gt;There is plenty of evidence that you die,. .Yes.. .. .&gt;are buried/cremated. .Yes.. .. .&gt;and that's it.. .No, no empirical evidence.. .. .--------. .Yes there is.. .There's plenty of evidence that that's it. You can't see any so called 'spirit' leaving the body, you can't see the 'spirit' with any kind of detector such as a mass spectrometer, you can't hear the 'spirit' leaving , you can't feel the 'spirit' leaving... The very fact that there's no evidence of a spirit leaving the body is evidence that that's it.

rainbow
16th Mar 2002, 20:14
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Slasher
16th Mar 2002, 21:31
Laydown I think Rainbows caution is quite correct. As an upholder of scientific principle I ensured my get-out-of-jail-free card was posted in the form "I havent died and come back....." in my earlier post. Someone else with the same reasoning wouldve noted therefore my Uncertainty which then gives respect to the arguments from the other side. In other words Im not 100% sure, and no one can be in this discussion.. .. .However, the stuff souls are apparantley made of is popularley known as "ectoplasm". What ectoplasm is or its chemical composite make-up I dont know. Wether its a pure quantum energy or occupys a certain band in the electromagnetic spectrum I dont know either. There is NO mathematical nor empirical evidence to support it, merely speculation.. .. .But dont forget what rainbow said. If you told a caveman its possible to send his voice thousands of miles away and have it come out of a box, hed say your off your bloodey rocker! Youd then go on to say its all done by radio waves, the same waves that light is only much longer in wavelength. By now the caveman thinks your pullin his pud and tryin to baffle him with bullsh!t. "What the hell is light?" "Where these bloodey radio waves? I cant see them, cant taste them, or even hear them! Your full of crap mate!". .. .It took millions of years of evolution later to produce James Clerk Maxwells equations PROVING radio waves were a physical fact. The radio set is a result of those equations.. .. .In the same rationale, in present day Science there is no mathematical nor empirical or physical support for the existence of ectoplasm. In the 1960s the Pro-Ecto fans were agog that it was discovered a person at the point of death lost a few thousandths of a kg in weight (NOT mass). Presto! Its gotta be ectoplasm! But they were dead wrong so to speak. It was the weight of the AIR being expired from the guys lungs that cause the sudden miniscule drop in body weight. But all this doesnt CONCLUSIVLEY mean this ectoplasm stuff (or similar, for example plasma-like) may not exist in a particular physical plane we are as yet to discover. Thats why Im always open to afterlife discusions as long as proof is offered and the opinions pragmatic.. .. .Other (non-religious) proofs of the lack of an afterlife:. .. .* In 1874 on his deathbed (after the water-cage accident), Harry Houdini vowed to partake in an experiment that he would realy try to come back and talk to his wife in seances. She never got nothin from Harry. Ever.. .. .* Human beings are the only species who believe they occupy a priveleged part of the Universe. No other species on the planet assumes life after death.. .. .* If a ghost CAN see me then hes utilising the narrow spectrum of electromagnetism called light, from infra-red to ultra-violet. So I should be able to see partialy-reflected light from his retinas.. .. .* Ive been to seances. I can tell you first hand they are pure bullsh!t. The lengths people will go to grab money from suckers who believe in them deserves an Academy award! ******s should be jailed for fraudulent practices.. .. .* Stayed at a few "haunts". There was nothin that couldnt be explained by everyday physics. I was sort of hoping for the oposite! I conclude people believe too much in comforting Hollywood ghost storeys and fiction, like "Ghost" (P Swayze/D Moore).. .. .* The biological make-up and evolution of the human brain. From the R-complex, limbic system and cerebral cortex (which is a comparatively recent add-on). Theres a years solid reading in that!. .. .* Drs Karl Jung and Sigmund Freuds studys of the mind. Another solid years reading to grasp all that too!

Flying Lawyer
16th Mar 2002, 22:29
Rover. .I'm so sorry to read of your loss. . .I have no doubt whatsoever that there is life after death, and that we will be reunited with our loved ones. What form it takes I don't know, but Jesus said unequivocally that there is.. . . .I'd recommend a book "Questions of Life" by Nicky Gumbel ISBN: 0340785330. It's a paperback, costs about 4.99, and one of the chapters deals with this issue. Nicky Gumbel always writes in a very easy 'readable' style. . .If you have difficuly getting hold of a copy, email me and I'll get one and send it to you.. .. .What I'd really recommend, far better than just reading a book alone, is to do an Alpha Course. It's only 10 weeks, one evening each week. The format is a talk, followed by a discussion in groups of about 10 people. It's not a 'high pressure' course - the idea is to give people a chance to challenge/ask questions, and to decide for themselves what they believe after they've heard various viewpoints.. .Although Alpha courses started in London, they are now run in hundreds of places all over the country.. .If you check out the website, I'm sure you'll find a course near you: http://alphacourse.org. .. .There's another book which deals even more precisely with the question you raise, but I can't remember the title at the moment. I'll email you when I do.. .. .Tudor Owen

rover2701
16th Mar 2002, 22:54
Slasher. .I think you put a very good and convincing arguement. In my mind I cant fault it. I have, as you must have seen from my previous posts, carried out a great deal of research on the internet, and no one has given me any proof of an afterlife, conversely no one has disproved it. So all I have is hope really. Well thats enough to go on with I guess. Better some hope than none.. .. .I was interested to read that there was an attempt to weigh the body just before death and also at the point of death, and the difference in weight was put down to the air being expelled from the lungs. I dont have a problem with that at all. However trying to weigh the soul I would suspect is like trying to weigh radio waves, impossible. We can observe the effects but to weigh them I dont think we could(indeed if they have any weight at all anyway). Well I would liken the soul to energy, If indeed there is a soul, which is released at the time of death. Maybe we will never be able to measure it(caveman a good analogy)with present technology but who knows in the future. . .I saw Jans body after her death and I know it wasn't her. It was an empty shell. She had gone and I hope she has gone to a better place where I will take my place by her side when its my turn.. .. .Flying Lawyer . .thanks for the info and I will definately get the book you have recommended. However I dont know if I can fit in the course because, believe it or not I am doing a law degree at the moment and dont know if I would have the time to fit it in, especially seeing that exams are getting close. I nearly dropped out when Jan died I just didnt have the heart for it, however Jan would be mad if I did so I hung in there.. .. .Once again I am not convinced either way I just hope and will be receptive to a convincing arguement.. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 18:06: Message edited by: rover2701 ]</small>

Flying Lawyer
16th Mar 2002, 23:50
Rover. .You are right to carry on with your law degree. My father died suddenly of a heart attack only a month before I took my Bar Finals. My initial reaction was to put off the exams for a few months, but I decided to press ahead, spurred on by knowing that's what he would have wanted more than anything. It worked. Sadly, he wasn't there physically to see me qualify, but I have no doubt at all he was with me in spirit.. .. .Re the Alpha course . .There's no course-work/prep to do - you just go along once a week. I don't know your other commitments, but an evening a week away from studying Law is no bad thing! . .The courses run at different times at different places, so you could always do one after your exams.. .. .Re Law. .If you're interested in 'work experience' in Chambers/Court after your exams, I'd be very happy to arrange it for you.

Steepclimb
17th Mar 2002, 01:05
Ultimately this discussion is pointless. There is no life after death, (I believe). But plenty of people believe there is life after death. People need the assurance. Belief in the hereafter is for the benefit of the living. Either way we cannot prove it one way or the other. Anyone who says they is a liar or a fool.. .. .To misquote someone:. .. . 'A man's death is not so much his problem as that of those he leaves behind'.. .. .That's the truth of it.. .. .If I'm wrong, (I'm not) I'll stand a round of ectoplasm for everyone in the great bar in the sky. (Thinks, have they gone over to Euros on the afterlife yet?)

edriver
17th Mar 2002, 01:58
What is the meaning of life when every question can be answered.. .The evidence of afterlife can make our world a deserted place.. .. .Rover, I wish you strength

Flying Lawyer
17th Mar 2002, 15:17
Steepclimb. .I don't think it's been pointless from Rover's perspective.

Tartan Gannet
17th Mar 2002, 15:47
As regards the Supernatural and by extension "Ghosts" and other such matters I use this analogy.. .. .There is a Radio Ham transmitting on Shortwave on an island in the Pacific. Two people in the UK have radio sets. One has a cheap transistor radio, good enough to pick up the UK domestic stations and maybe some powerful European ones but that's it. He does not of course receive the Ham's transmission. To him therefore it isnt there, it doesnt exist. The other person has a powerful multiwaveband Communications Receiver with SSB and other features and a good antenna system. They pick up the Ham. To me reception of Supernatural manifestations are similar. Most of us are not equipped to receive them, so we say they dont exist, fewer of us have the requisite apparatus and do receive them. . .. .On the matter of the Afterlife for Humans. I can no more prove nor disprove this than can anyone else, but I know which taking all the "facts" and arguments pro and con into account I prefer to believe. If the only reason for my existance is to procreate then Im am not only a total failure but even guilty of dereliction of duty having deliberately had a vasectomy to prevent that very purpose from being fulfilled.. .. .So to all who mourn, I say take comfort from the fact that down through the millennia, all cultures, primitive and sophisticated, all races and religions have had a common belief in an afterlife. We cant all be wrong!

rover2701
17th Mar 2002, 15:48
Steep climb. .Flying Lawyer is correct. I havent found this thread pointless. I didnt expect glib and easy answers. I like to think I am intelligent enough to listen to all sides of an arguement and then make my own mind up. I am only trying to make sense of what I consider Jans untimely demise and the void she has left in my life.. .Everyone, even people who have contributed whom I consider to be a little lacking in tact, at this a vey difficult time of my life, have been very helpful to me. . .. .I must admit the sympathy shown by everyone has been truly welcome. I wasnt angling for any sympathy and I certainly didnt expect or want anyone to feel sorry for me. This is just me trying to find answers. For that I thank everyone who has contributed.. .. .Flying Lawyer. .I have looked on the Alpha website and there are several courses being held in my area and I will endeavour to attend one.. .. .Also thank you for the offer of a placement for work experience. I may take you up on it at the appropiate time. Lets get the exams over with first though, I may not do to well. Incidently I am doing the degree more out of interest than a carreer change. I am to old for that but I would love to be involved in some way at the appropriate time.

Pegasus77
17th Mar 2002, 16:27
Hey Rover, very sad to hear about your loss.... .. .Two years ago I for the first time had someone close dying. . .I can honestly say, I'm still not over it. Although I heartily agree with Miss Forty, life goes on and we must live it, there are many moments of deep feelings where I remember beautiful moments and especially the emotional bond we had.. .. .Mourning can be beautiful. I have learned to feel more and deeper, became more personal with a lot of people around me. I let my tears flow freely, and occasionally still do.. .. .To your question about the afterlife... personally I would love to be able to believe in it, but I can't.. .. .I take pleasure in the fact that my friend shared many happy moments with me during his entire life and was happy till the point where he abruptly left this world.. .. .I hope you find your answer, and find your peace with it.. .. .Good luck!. .. .P77

Velvet
18th Mar 2002, 00:44
Rover, hugs my dear. . .. .The Afterlife, Heaven, Paradise, Hell, Nirvana, Bliss, Eternal Rest and all the names or euphemisms for what we know as death. What or where is it? Can we ever be sure without experiencing it that it exists - as Slasher said - to be positive I'd have to die first. There are many millions of people who would state quite matter of factly and categorically, that he and they have indeed experienced death not once, but many times and returned. There are many famous cases of people who have memories of other lives, other times and (as I’m sure Slasher would be the first to appreciate the irony) of being the opposite sex. Some have produced evidence which arguably does prove they lived before, in a few cases within living memory. The Dalai Lama is chosen entirely due to this belief in reincarnation. Is it really just down to either a hoax or self-delusion. . .. .Those who have experienced near death experiences or NDEs are told it's just lack of oxygen or wishful thinking. But, most of them not only 'know' it's real, they also almost invariably experience a change in perception afterwards and in many cases a resultant change in their lifestyle. That they experience something which closely approximates their belief system does not invalidate it, merely that they 'see' that which fits in with their most cherished and deeply held faith. . .. .I don't know if humans will ever have empirical proof that there is some kind of continuance after what we term death. We may have to continue to take it on faith and ultimately that's what anything we can't touch, taste, smell, hear or see entails. . .. .The unknown is always scary and what happens to us after death is for most the ultimate unknown and unknowable. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist just because we can't experience it, nor recreate it within a scientific laboratory. . .. .As Shakespeare once said 'There are more things in Heaven and Earth and are dreamed of in your philosophy Horatio'.. .. .Is it a triumph of hope over reality, are all those billions of people who have and do believe just wishful thinkers. Some of them are the greatest thinkers of the ages. . .. .Unlike Slasher I don't claim that we are the only species that believes in the after-life; I can't say I've ever been an elephant or a dolphin. I do know many animals have some kind of emotional sense and that they dream, and maybe that's all you need. . .. .It is often the way that you will find evidence or lack thereof to support your belief structure. Looking for something in the wrong place will only confirm that it isn't there. What you don't find merely reinforces that there is nothing to be found. . .. .I do believe that we exist outside the material and mundane; that there is more to us than just electrical Impulses in a flesh covered bag of bones. I have total faith in this, and even though it is based on personal experiences it is just that, a belief. . .. .Rover, there are many poems, but this is one of my favourites and I read it at my Mother’s Celebration of Life Service after she died:. .. .Miss me a little, but let me go. .When the sun has set for me. .I want no rites in a gloom-filled room. .Why cry for a soul set free?. .. .Miss me a little, but not too long. .And not with your head bowed low. .Remember the love that we once shared. .Miss me…….. but let me go. .. .For this is a journey that all must take . .And we must go alone. .It’s all a part of the Master’s plan. .A step on the ‘road to Home’. .. .And think of me as living. .In the hearts of those I touched. .For nothing loved is ever lost. .And I know I was loved so much

bugg smasher
18th Mar 2002, 01:46
As part of the Human Genome Project and other DNA-sequencing efforts, scientists have discovered that humans share a large percentage of their genes with most other living creatures on this planet. This similarity might be the result of evolution from a common ancestor, or more significantly, may have resulted from an intelligent designer using similar assembly instructions to build similar components that perform common functions. The real question is not why are the genes in different creatures similar, but where does the information content of the genes come from in the first place. Design theorists regard the presence of information in DNA as an unequivocal hallmark of prior intelligent activity, because in our experience only intelligence generates information. Given the apparent presence of a Designer, one must presuppose a purpose in said design. (That God is an engineer should come as no surprise even to the good Mr. Draper.). .. .Physicists are now beginning to suspect that time is merely the peculiar way in which the human brain, in its current state of development, perceives duration, and that this ‘duration’ happens not sequentially, but simultaneously and instantaneously. To put this in the context of the current thread, we are born, we live, and we die all at once, and more perplexingly, not necessarily in that order. Given the above, the possibility that we do so many times over does not take a great stretch of the imagination. The purpose behind this is cause for much fascinating speculation, the mechanics of the process a mysterious one. . .. .It is my personal view that we have our existence in a universe that is vastly and unimaginably more complex, creative and expansive than even the brightest of us can conceive of. In time, if there is such a thing, I hope to understand.. .. .Rover2701, profoundest condolences, God Speed.

Slasher
18th Mar 2002, 06:16
Bugg the theory you speak about is the one that says Logic dictates Reasoning, and Reasoning only emanates from Being. Therefore anything that propagates Logic and Reasoning mustve come from Being. In this case from a supernatural Designer. Its very human, very logical and very easey to believe in a Designer. Everything logicaly built in our world had someone think it out, design and build it wether its a hunting spear or a space-shuttle. So why should it be diferent for inteligent life forms and complex DNA such as us?. .. .When it comes to the history of biological species we have to look at Darwin, the Chaos Theory and biological history. In Darwin find the whole thing marvarlously logical and sense-making. The process of Evolution itself is almost God-like in its logic, so there must be a Designer at work right?. .. .Wrong. As we look at natural and artificial selection, we find it is variable uncontroled events not supernatural interferance that causes species to evolve, come into existance, become extinct. Since natural selection caused the extinction of Neanderthal man (who had virtualy equal DNA to that of Homo Sapiens), we find WE only won because of natural default and the fact we had a cerebral cortex that gave as a survival advantage over other species. Until about 2 million years ago every life form was dictated by mainley through natural selection. There was no supernatural Designer at work here nor is one needed to solve the puzzle. The formation of our DNA and that of similar species was the result of natural events on a Chaotic principle. Its amazing what hydrogen atoms are capable of, given 15 billion years. Its also amazing that theres a species with the inteligence and reasoning to figure the puzzle out.. .. .With ref to time I think your touching on Steve Hawkings Real and Apparant Time. But time is real though in our dimension. The rings in a tree trunk, ice ages, solar-flare cycles and your wrist watch all show that Time is real. The Time you touch on refers past the Event Horizon of a Black Hole where Time ceases to be Real. Einsteins Relativity theory math dictates the same thing although his General theory does lead to the same result. There are no fewer than 10 diferent mathematicaly-proven planes of dimension, and thats just in our one everyday Universe! For the "mystery" of the mechanics and math youd have to delve into it at the Quantum level (unfortunatley).. .. .Id prefer to propagate life-after-death arguments from an atheistic persective, but discussion on religion (the only real common referance for conciliatory argument on post-death) is banned from JB. So I have to keep my reasoning on a non-religious basis.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 02:36: Message edited by: Slasher ]</small>

guyincognito
18th Mar 2002, 11:09
Condolences again Rover for the loss of your partner. Death is a truly terrible thing. It's hard to believe that some think it is natural.. .. .I don't think you will ever get over her loss, and from what I understand that is normal. It is ok to grieve for as long as you like. I think our society hide grief and death to its own detriment.. .. .You have asked good questions. I heartfeltly believe that the bible has the answers to your question. It says that those who put their trust in Jesus Christ, his death on our behalf to pay for our rebellion against God, will live forever. This is truly good news. John chapter 3 is probably the most straightforward explanation, although reading the whole of John's gospel is probably better (it only takes about 1.5 hours).. .. .We can have confidence that Jesus speaks the truth because he is the first to rise of God's people to rise from the dead. . .. .Athieism has no answer to death and grief. Neither does sentimentality. But God, who gave his only Son on the cross to die in our place, has not only shared in our grief, but offers hope.

Slasher
18th Mar 2002, 11:39
Well IM obeying the rules about religion on JB even if others flagrantly dont!. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 06:41: Message edited by: Slasher ]</small>

Tartan Gannet
18th Mar 2002, 15:35
Yes Slasher, although I DO believe in an afterlife, just as I believe in Classical Darwinian Evolution and Newtonian Physics, I like you have tried to keep specific religion out of it, as per the rules of Danny Fyne. I do feel that Guy Incognito has crossed that line in his post. That however is for Danny to deal with.. .. .Sure Guy has a very definite belief in a certain religion and, I would assume from his former postings, in the fundamentalist wing of that faith and to him this gives a complete and unassailable answer to the question posed by the orginator of this thread. If he can take comfort from this belief, good luck to him. Many others however, such as myself, have our uncertainties in response to this matter. . .. .Put simply, on the balance of probabilities and from such evidence, theories, and material available to me I feel that the human spirit, psyche, persona, soul, call it what you will, DOES survive the death of the body which was its home and vehicle in this life. As to what that survival entails, where the soul goes, what or who it is born as again, assuming that we are reincarnated, I DO NOT KNOW, and frankly, as far as I am concerned, only the Dead have that answer.

rover2701
18th Mar 2002, 17:54
Guy . .thanks for your condolances. I would ask of you to respect the rules laid down in this forum by the person whose site this is and leave religion out of it. I respect all views and dont want this thread pulled because we have encroached on those rules. I know it is difficult to seperate religion and the afterlife and that is why I was so reluctant to start this discussion. So please if you could refrain I would appreciate it. . .Incidently I wish and hope there is an afterlife as you must have seen from my postings. I want to know that Jan and I will be joined together at my death. I want that so much that I will do anything to make it come true. However if there is no afterlife, and as I have stated before, I thank whoever is the creator(indeed if there is one) for every second I was allowed to be in her life. I feel her within me and know that she will be waiting for me when its my turn.

PaperTiger
19th Mar 2002, 01:39
A thorough discussion of the possibilites of an afterlife would include the religious aspect. It is one (but just one) of the ligitimate avenues of investigation. Indeed some hold that religions exist only because of this question.. .. .I do think those of a religious bent should be permitted to contribute. What they should NOT be allowed to do is prostletize. Most of course, do not know the difference.

Tartan Gannet
19th Mar 2002, 02:05
That's the problem Paper Tiger. In the past there were religious threads and many posters could be objective, but a certain three or four highjacked these discussions and pumped out their totally bigotted viewpoints that one particular religion, (I wont say which), was the only true belief, had all the answers and only required blind faith in its precepts to acheive "salvation", whatever that may be. Debate degenerated into slanging matches on both sides with personal insults being thrown about. One such correspondent, now banned, couldnt even be bothered to answer points made but merely cut and pasted selected quotes and interspersed instant whip cracker barrel quips or quotations from his particular holy book which to his mind contained all the answers. In the end Danny Fyne quite rightly issued his decree banning overtly religious or political threads and banned the worst offender from PPrune.. .. .The problem is while some of us can discuss religion on an objective basis, there are others who get exceedingly emotive about this topic particularly if anyone attacks the Dogmas and Tenets of their own Faith.. .. .So, as this rule has brought peace to Jet Blast I for one feel that Danny ought to continue to impose it for the greater good of the greater number.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 23:18: Message edited by: tartan gannet ]</small>

FiveMilesOut
19th Mar 2002, 03:02
Ahem... I believe it was a certain PPRUNER referring to members of a certain religion as being brainwashed that raised the heat a little....

guyincognito
19th Mar 2002, 04:15
It is a strange thing indeed to discuss the afterlife without any mention of religion. It is, in all honesty, the imposition of one religion on the rest: those who hold to a materialist worldview(the belief that the spiritual realm does not exist, or at least is entirely irrelevant) over the rest. But it's Danny's trainset and he can play with it as he wishes. However I have no intention of hijacking or getting this thread closed.. .. .TG, I hope you don't include me in your list of religious bigots and offenders.

Steepclimb
19th Mar 2002, 05:02
Just to clarify my 'pointless' remark. Read it again and you should see that I didn't mean THIS discussion but the whole; is there, isn't there an afterlife discussion is pointless because WE (ie human beings as a whole) cannot do more than provide an opinion. No proof exists or can exist. . .Like Superpilot I too have had 'certain' experiences. They were both surprising and unexpected and have recurred. Paradoxically these experiences, unexplainable though they are, have only reinforced my beliefs or lack therof. If I was to recant a little and admit the possibility of an afterlife. I can say for an absolute certainty (absolutism?) that it will not resemble anything we imagine it to be. Nature, (note, nature is not an entity simply a process) has a propensity for recycling, who's to say nature doesn't recycle something of our Psychic energy, for want of a better term. If perhaps, someone remembers a previous life, could it be genetic, passed on through the normal reproductive process. I'm speculating of course, but aren't we all? . .. .The point someone made about genes being all but identical in living creatures, I think reinforces my point about our immortality being based on reproduction. We will all live on just as the originator of all our DNA still exists in all of us in some form and will continue to do so until the Earth is swallowed by a supernova. . .. .Perhaps we all need to think big, WE as in all living creatures will continue to exist. The analogy of the Ant colony is apt. Ant colonies often act as if it was a single creature, yet individual ants are mere components of the whole. As are we. Yes I know we are a bit more sophisticated than ants, but you know what I mean.. .. .A bit of lateral thinking is needed here and if you do come to a conclusion try and stay openminded unlike most religions. Religion in my opinion is the root of all evil. Not belief in a God but religion. That at least can be proved.

JudyTTexas
19th Mar 2002, 09:31
Rover, I truely believe as you "seek, you will find". For me, it would be difficult to suggest there is no correlation between "God" and an afterlife. Like Steepclimb, I agree there is a difference between "religion" and God.. .. .I always found it interesting read how various scientists/atheists came to believing in a "Greater power". Inspirations such as C.S. Lewis, Emanuel Swedenborg, (present day) Dr. Carl Baugh,Ph.D. to name a few...(first two started their search due to a loss).. .. .After my husbands death, I really was not too concerned whether I was accepted by others "belief system"...ie: to believe in an afterlife or not to believe in one. My pain was too intense to care one way or the other. My loss did not cause me to throw myself prone before an alter or place me in any church pew.. .However, it enhanced my "journey" to seek answers and to question yet the existance of a "God/afterlife". It was difficult to accept we just "die" and that's it! What kind of joke is that? We establish a close relationship with someone and then "Poof" they are gone. . .. .Of course I also went to the other end of the spectrum. Based on my formidable years, I went through the mental gambit of believing "God" was punishing me. (Hince, this is what negative "religious" upbringing will do for you).. .. .All in all...my search has lead me to experience very real events which cannot be explained. However, they were real enough to confirm what I was seeking. I know this is not to be intended to dwell on "religious" content. To suppress my opinion of what I know to be true in my life, would be asking me to deny the existance of those events. Bottom line...there are some, as myself, that do believe in a God and the "Book of Life" referencing the "hereafter".... .It is only the tip of the iceberg and much more than what is boxed up in a denomination belief system.. .. .I'm not asking anyone or Rover to believe what I believe, but I'd be less than honest if I didn't share what is in my heart. For Rover, I wish only peace and contentment for you.. .. ....Sadness is better than laughter, for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better and gains gladness...(The Book)

Jet Dragon
19th Mar 2002, 09:45
Rover. .. .My wife & I lost a child when he was 2 yrs old - all I can say to you is this :. .. .1) The pain of bereavement never really leaves you - but it does become easier to bear with time.. .. .2) I would never call myself religious - to me the person you have lost at least lives on in our hearts while we are alive - that is better than nothing.. .. .3) Just accept that there will be good days, and bad days - certain dates will become very painful, but we hold on to point (2) to get us through them.. .. .I wish you all the very best. .. .JD

bugg smasher
19th Mar 2002, 10:22
As with any theological concept, we can all talk about life before/after death, but most of us can only guess at what it is, form an opinion based on deeply personal experiences, and try to make sense of it all in some way. Your arguments are quite persuasive Slasher, it’s not only rare, but somehow deeply unsettling that someone should speak so eloquently and so forcefully about the meaninglessness of his own existence. (More on this in a future post). .. .Chaos theory, amongst other things, posits that we live in a universe that is unpredictable, yet it is this very unpredictability that gives rise to spontaneous order. A dynamic living system once disturbed will seek equilibrium, and in so doing produces further instabilities that require it to seek yet more equilibrium, which in turn produces more instability, and so on. To provide an example here, and I do not wish to be flippant, the Guvnor introduced some odd-ball views into this forum. His views created a dynamic instability (irritation) which in turn produced a uniquely coherent body of formerly disparate opinion, then further bifurcating into opposing groups of for and against, which then in turn produced further interaction not even remotely related to the original perturbation. I believe the process remains a continuing one. And so, out of the simplicity and chaos of the Guvnor’s views, complexity and order is born. This appears to be the thrust of your argument, the raison d’etre, modus operandi and general Swiss Army Knife for your clever hydrogen atom.. .. .Fair enough, Slasher. You do not, however, address the issue of whence comes this lonely atom in the first place, and why, who or what has endowed it with a spontaneous creative power to construct a system which allows it to look upon itself and wonder. . .. .That the primordial soup exists at all should be sufficient reason to suspect a presence other than our own.

Slasher
20th Mar 2002, 03:42
Buggs I dont know why you introduced Guvnor into this as I dont see the relevance to the discussion. So Ill discard that from referance if you dont mind.. .. .Its very in-vogue for ones "life to have meaning" and "a meaningful existance" (a human cerebrum-cortexic dysfunction?). The same could be asked of other life forms such as cold viruses, mosquitos, and tax-men. Remember Im not talking philosophy or deep and meaningfuls. Im keeping my rationale on track and staying away from these side-issues.. .. .Your correct about Chaos giving spontaneous order. But your looking at the process from a philosophical view-point with an aim to defend supernaturality, not a scientific one. I think your proceeding from the false assumption mate that the Earths environment just happened to suit us. Uh-uh, we "became" because our early colection of molecules happened to fit in with Earths environment at the time. Im unwilling to start baffling everyone will heavey stuff like astrophysical biology, but suffice to say supernovas so far holds as the best evidence for initialising the particular element that gave rise to self-replicating carbon-based life. (THAT particular subject isnt mind-boggling. Only needs a week of study to grasp). And I said "so far" because Science only acknowledges theorys that withstand rigorus ceptic criticism unless a better theory with the required proofs arrives. (e.g. Newton and Einstein wrt physics at a certain level).. .. .Mysterys are merely facts we havent discovered yet. Supernaturality (and its off-shoot institutions) Ive found is just a comforting and convenient "fill-in plaster" needed by some till the missing part of the jig-saw is eventualy discovered, and then the brawling starts between the supernaturalists and the realists.. .. .Apart from all that Buggs Im not deriding you or seeking to destroy your belief system. Im just discussing the subject from a scientific view-point.

HugMonster
20th Mar 2002, 04:10
Judy, you seem to generalise a little too much. C.S. Lewis was born and brought up in Christianity. He lost his faith in his mid-teens, but went back to it again in his mid-twenties. Not an uncommon phenomenon. He spent most of his life as a practicing, believing Christian.. .. .As I read your post, it appears to imply that he was atheist most of his life, converting late on. I am sure you will say that this was not your intention. And I am sure you do yourself an injustice - I am quite certain that many PPRuNers find you still quite formidable! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

JudyTTexas
20th Mar 2002, 05:57
Hmmm...well Hug, very interesting perception. If you're sure, then it must be true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

bugg smasher
20th Mar 2002, 06:27
Merely, Slasher, as a convenient way to illustrate the chaos principle at work, even here in this forum. Consider it discarded.. .. .In discussing all of this, it is wise to avoid not only mysticism, but scientism as well, if we are to reach some sort of common ground in this exchange. That we exist, both of us appear to agree upon. That our existence does not have purpose, well, that is a ‘truth’ you appear to have stumbled upon, perhaps I have over-looked something crucial. If considering one’s life as meaningful ever went ‘out-of-vogue’, I suspect most of us would cease to function (in any meaningful way), if not as individuals then certainly as a society.. .. .I have met many people who experience profound emotion, but are sadly unable to articulate that emotion. I have also met a considerable few whose minds work with a speed and intelligence that defies explanation, but who have, as you do, discarded emotion as being a troublesome hindrance to the intellect, a “human cerebrum-cortexic dysfunction” if you will. The most well-developed by far, however, are those that have managed to synthesize both the emotion and the intellect into some form of conceptual unity. Therein, I believe, lies the key to understanding our world.

guyincognito
20th Mar 2002, 08:26
Slasher,. .. .Why is it that some people think science can answer every question in life? I would hope that most scientists would shy away from such a claim.

Slasher
20th Mar 2002, 12:52
Fair enough Buggs. I didnt say we DONT have a "purpose". Im saying we are the only species that somehow feels we have to have one, and I speak strictley from the anthropological and biological concept. Emotion has its purpose of course, lying deep in our limbic system, but it plays no part during the pursuit of true scientific investigation nor can it be permited, because it may give us a biased answer rather than logic and pragmatism. I said the "dysfunction" (as I put it) is strictley wrt this "meaning of life" business (not emotion) and I also said Ive steered clear of using any philosophy and (JB-banned) religious referances in this discussion. The only thing Id carry further with you is your statement "The most well-developed by far, however, are those that have managed to synthesize both the emotion and the intellect into some form of conceptual unity." Well Ive done that. My intelect has managed to control my emotion in the pursuit of knowledge (of course the same cant be said in my pursuit of women!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .Guy of course it doesnt answer EVERY question in life, but it uncovers the facts about the Universe and the way things are more honestly, truthfuly and accurately than mysticism. And btw true scientists dont shy away from tough questions. Supernaturalists do. The life of Galileo and Geordano Bruno proved that QED and thats just 2 examples. But lets not start a bum-fight on that! The topic is "is there an afterlife".

bugg smasher
20th Mar 2002, 21:29
Great art, I guess you’ll agree, has the capability to produce both great realization and profound emotion. The realization does not necessarily always accompany the emotion, nor does the presence of emotion automatically produce realization. But if followed honestly, the one will always lead to the other.. .. .In experiencing a great loss, such as the originator of this thread has, a deep, profoundly moving emotion has been introduced into his life. This emotion, I believe, is meant (designed) to thrust the intellect into new avenues of exploration (albeit painfully), and invariably causes the person experiencing it to question life’s most fundamental values, meanings and purposes.. .. .In “controlling” your emotions, Slasher, you sanitize knowledge and objectify women. You defeat the very purpose of your stated pursuit by depriving your intellect of the natural fuel it requires to power itself to new understanding.

OneWorld22
20th Mar 2002, 22:59
I hate getting involved in these bllody discussions, but what the hell, I'll only say this for the time being,. .. .For anyone to suggest that the incredibly complex and superbly constructed human body and it's incredible ability to think, to create, to love, somehow started life in a pond of goo millions of years ago when two cells happened to meet is quite frankly laughable.. .. ."What a piece of work is man...."

Moritz Suter
20th Mar 2002, 23:03
Naughty naughty, boys and girls....religion is a no no. Lets not slide down the slipery slope. Besides, it's wanting that's at the very root of all human misery.. .. .And with all this talk of life after death, personally, I'm rather more interested in life before death.

paco
20th Mar 2002, 23:47
I think we all look at it the wrong way round - the real person is the soul (entity, or whatever you want to call it) and the body just a spacesuit we wear as part of the crew of the spaceship called Earth. When we've done our tour, we go back to base, then maybe get posted back.. .. .All religions say we come from God (or the Force, the Tao, etc), yet they neglect to say where we go afterwards! If we come from somewhere, then we must logically go somewhere!. .. .If it's any consolation to anyone who is missing someone, I do believe we meet up again with people we are compatible with (i.e. those with the same vibration). The Earth is the only place we can mix with people who are not, so that we can learn tolerance, how to cope with impatience, etc.. .. .For me, there are simply too many good people who have had OBEs and NDEs who come back to tell the tale for it to be otherwise. If you are able to listen to some of the past shows at www.artbell.com, you will hear what I mean.. .. .Keep your hopes up - this place is only a motorway service station on the path of your real life - it must be, the food's awful!. .. .Phil

rover2701
20th Mar 2002, 23:51
Mr. Suter. .I had hoped we could keep you and your reactionary views out of this thread. However it seems that your statement saying you are more interested in what goes on in this life more than the afterlife neither addresses the issue I raised or contributes to the debate.. .I asked a not so simple question because of the loss I so recently experienced. Only one person raised religion and I asked him to desist. Also you will see from my original posting that I was reluctant to open this topic for just that reason.. .So please if you have a valid contribution post it by all means, if not go elsewhere and stir up trouble with others. Considering the nature of this debate and the reason I posted it I thought even you, would behave more sensitively to my request for other peoples experiences and views. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 20:03: Message edited by: rover2701 ]</small>

Celtic Emerald
21st Mar 2002, 00:16
Slasher. .. .I've had a very hard day at work mate Give me a break! LOL. .. .Besides meeting cyberially as we are now, even though you can't use most of your senses ie, sight (barr reading my rubbish), sound, taste, touch & smell that we normally use to evaluate people, doesn't mean we don't exist, just that we're meeting on another dimension from reality, perhaps spirits are the same, just cause we can't see them don't mean they don't exist. And I ain't bullshitting either so there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Hell, if there ain't no afterlife why don't we all laugh, drink & be merry & to hell with the consequences course that's one philosophy I don't think our Slasher needs preaching about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Emerald. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 19:26: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]</small>

Moritz Suter
21st Mar 2002, 01:15
Mr. Rover,. .. .First of all, I didn't read the beginning of your thread...just popped in to say hi, as it were. Now that I've corrected that oversight, please accept both my condolences and apologies. I had no intention of trivialising your grief, or of causing you further pain, and if I have done so, you have my sincerest lament.. .. .I can offer no insight on what lies beyond the grave, only a suggestion as to the management of grief, and of the preciousness of life.. .. ."Suppressed grief suffocates, it rages within the breast, and is forced to multiply its strength.". .. .Ovid

flapsforty
21st Mar 2002, 01:32
Fascinating discussion here. Bugg smasher existence is meaningless when we do not believe in afterlife? Quite the opposite I would say. If this life is the only one I have, the urge to live it's meaning each and every day becomes more poignant. . .Objectifying people, why is that so bad? We are objects in other people's minds at times, why pretend otherwise?. .. .Would it be a good idea to start a new thread on this, or am I the only one getting an uncomfortable feeling from having to read the kind of disrespectful cr*p Emmy & Suter are coming out with on a thread started by Rover trying to come to terms with his grief over the death of his woman?. .. .On a new thread we could discuss the principles and the ideas/beliefs/scientific flavours of the month without having to cringe at the contributions of the ignorant and the unfeeling.. .. .Rover, it was a brave thing you did, starting this thread.

Velvet
21st Mar 2002, 02:23
Rover, you say that if you knew absolutely for sure that you would be with Jan, you would join her willingly. Have you thought of the pain that decision and action would cause those who love you and would be left to grieve your passing.. .. .Despite evidence and there is a considerable amount if you don't just dismiss it, there is no definitive proof that will convince the sceptics. Perhaps it will always be thus. Knowing would possibly place a tremendous burden on us to end this life quickly at the first obstacle. . .. .I think you want more to know that her soul has not just been extinguished. As always the answers are not as important nor as revealing as the questions.

rover2701
21st Mar 2002, 03:18
aahhh My dear Velvet . .how perceptive you are. I have thought of the pain and suffering I would leave behind by my own demise, but the need to be with Jan is almost overwhelming. However I know it is not the right thing to do. I feel, no I know, that when my time comes I will be with her in some form or another. Death will not part me from her. As an old verse says and I cant remember the exact wording, she is only next door and she is just waiting for me. One day we will be reunited I just wish it was sooner rather than later.

Send Clowns
21st Mar 2002, 03:23
Deeply, deeply sorry Rover. Please have patience, for the benefit of those around you, and wait to be with Jan.

Lobotumi
21st Mar 2002, 03:35
rover:. .why don't you get on with it and spare us all the self pity.

Send Clowns
21st Mar 2002, 03:39
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> Well why don't you just leave others in peace that are not disurbing you, Lobotomy? Don't be so vile and spiteful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 22:40: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]</small>

KayGridley
21st Mar 2002, 04:36
Lobotumi grow up.. .. .Rover all I can say is I hope we are bringing you a little comfort. Personally I think you are right to believe you will see her again. Just keep believing. You're in our thoughts I promise.

Velvet
21st Mar 2002, 05:10
Lobotumi, I know rover personally and I know he is searching for something to make meaning of what to him is a meaningless loss of someone he loved very much. . .. .I also know he thought long and hard before exposing his grief to those on this forum. What is wrong with a little self-pity, does it make him somehow less worthy of our sympathy.. .. .I'm not sure what point you are making, do you think that it is more manly to be cold and unfeeling. Or did you think your comments displayed your wit and superior intellect. That was your second mistake - the first was in thinking you could make a worthwhile contribution to this thread.. .. .Rover the poem you are looking for is called The Next Room by Henry Scott Holland: Canon of St Paul's Cathedral. Take it to heart m'dear, I too believe death is not the end, but another cycle in our eternal lives.. .. .Death is nothing at all,. .I have only slipped away into the next room.. .I am I, and you are you,. .Whatever we were to each other, that we still are.. .Call me by my old familiar name,. .Speak to me in the easy way which you always used.. .Put no difference in your tone,. .Wear no forced air of solemnity or sorrow. .Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together.. .Let my name be ever the household word that it always was,. .Let it be spoken without effect,. .Without the trace of a shadow on it.. .Life means all that it ever meant. .It is the same as it ever was.. .There is unbroken continuity.. .Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight ?. .I am waiting for you,. .For an interval,. .Somewhere very near,. .Just around the corner. .All is Well

BlueDiamond
21st Mar 2002, 05:48
Lobotumi, you are an offensive little pr*ck and that remak was totally uncalled for. Rover is clearly experiencing a grief so profound that he is having great difficulty dealing with it and it would have taken a lot of courage for him to write that post.. .. .Perhaps there will come a day when you will love someone so completely and faithfully that you will acquire some understanding of what is currently happening to this man. I somehow doubt it.. .. .I assume your user name is a description of your previous medical history?

Ivchenko
21st Mar 2002, 05:57
I believe that life is more infinitely complex and magical than we as mortals can appreciate (which is why I find organised religion abhorrent). As a crude analogy - and picking up themes from earlier posts - in the same sort of way that a three year old would never understand differential calculus, we will never, in our current state, understand what, why and how.. .. .But the evidence that the spirit (for want of a better word) survives and moves on to a greater peace seems, to me, to be overwhelming. Many people posting here have mentioned this; I will be far from the only one who's had experiences which make me realise how little we understand, and even the narrow aviation context brings out stories such as R101 and Flight 403 which are difficult to ignore.. .. .So Rover, my deepest sympathies for your pain, and I believe you are on a very difficult part of a much bigger journey which goes beyond any of our ability to comprehend.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 01:01: Message edited by: Ivchenko ]</small>

Binoculars
21st Mar 2002, 06:10
The aptly named Lobotumi is a good example of the sort of **** this forum would be well rid of if there were a subscription. I'm not generally in favour of bans, but an intellectual pygmy like him (it MUST be a male) has nothing worthwhile to offer. . .. .Halfwit.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 01:10: Message edited by: Binoculars ]</small>

bugg smasher
21st Mar 2002, 08:31
Quite right flaps, whether one has one life or a thousand, they should be lived to the fullest. Not really sure why you read that into my post.. .. .In objectifying another, that is, in making another the object of one’s desire, derision, lust, hatred or whatever, one tends to strip that person of his/her human qualities, setting up expectations that may be too high, too low, or in extreme case unrealistically wide of the mark. (I know I myself was shocked to discover that supermodels actually go to the toilet.) It is, as you say, a common human tendency, but one I believe that reflects a dishonesty to one’s self, conscious or otherwise, thereby hampering the ability to communicate meaningfully with one another. In many instances, I think it is also used as a defense mechanism by the one who has been objectified; they are terrified of showing others who they really are. I believe one of the above posters falls neatly into that category. Perhaps we use the term differently. What do you mean by it?. .. .In any event, apologies to you rover for the digression. As far as I can tell, the majority here appear to have deep personal conviction, as I do, that we continue to live beyond this earthly existence.

Moritz Suter
21st Mar 2002, 08:49
Perhaps you might find a little comfort here,. .. .http://www.journeyofhearts.org/jofh. .. .Mr. Rover. Some of it is quite lovely, and I sincerely hope it helps, even if only a little.. .. .MS.

Lobotumi
21st Mar 2002, 13:43
kharma, rover, kharma.! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Slasher
21st Mar 2002, 14:51
Buggs wrt my earlier ref to women, that was meant as a little humor just remind you and everybody else Im not all Mr Spock! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .And it obvious Lobotumi here has never experienced grief like that of Rover and most of us in the past. Decent thing for Lobo to do is to delete his post or at least pull his head in and bloodey apologise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Lobotumi
21st Mar 2002, 16:49
behave righteously while you're here - the rest of it will take care of itself. wallowing in self pity is both undignified and self-indulgent, especially in public.

bugg smasher
21st Mar 2002, 18:09
Funny that the Lobotumi persona should appear just as Morris resurfaces. Same tone, same approach, same method of attack. Not to worry rover my friend, the Lobotumi/Morris/Saffa/YakYak poster is a young 'lady' who works for Crossair as a very junior Saab 340 copilot. She is well-known, as I'm sure you are aware, to have a penchant for stirring trouble where none is warranted. She must be a nightmare in the cockpit.

rover2701
22nd Mar 2002, 02:27
What can I say....Self pity....maybe. Confused ...yes....angry...most certainly....wanting answers...thats why I asked the question.. .Lobotumi, it took a lot of soul searching before I posted on this forum. I knew I would probably get ridiculed by some members of pprune. To be accused of wallowing in self pity I did not expect. If you have ever or do ever experience the pain of loseing someone whom you adore then you may say the things you said. To me it feels like I have had my heart ripped out. I just wanted to try and get some answers to the the great unanswerable. I never thought it was self indulgent or wallowing in self pity. I know there is probably no answer, but to know other peoples views on this is knowledge I sought. Even Moritz Suter when he knew the loss I had was gracious enough to point me to a web site that tries to give some comfort at times like these.. .Why were you offended by my quest for knowledge?

Paterbrat
22nd Mar 2002, 05:35
Rover, sorry to hear of your loss. I think it would be entirely understandable to seek answers and where better than in the company of generaly companiable folk who share common interests even if the they are cybercompanions. We are all on the same journey that is life and some companions we meet fleetingly while others we enjoy more closely. Partings from loved ones are always sad, particularly for the seeming finality of death. I suppose we all see our existance in different ways and the meaning of why we are here. I have somehow always felt that the inevitability of death is but a transition from one phase to another. Our loved ones I somehow feel do not leave us but could not explain why or how I feel this.. . . .. . The coincindental appearence of Morris and the other creature that also emerged also struck me. Sympathy with the one persona and spite from the other. A sad and disturbed individual. Anonymity is not absolute and Danny will one day decide as he has done in the past that enough is enough and ask whoever it is to vent their spleen and hate somewhere else.Tread warily Hydra.

Travelling Toolbox
22nd Mar 2002, 09:33
Mr. Rover. I have come to this thread late, read the first few touching responses and then skipped to the end to offer my condolences. It appears just as well, as some drivel must have appeared to provoke the posts a few back.. .. .I have been married for twenty-four years (feels like 24 weeks) and have often pondered your thought. I don't know how I would cope. So I feel for you, but agree with Hug & co., she is waiting for you somewhere and you will be together again. As I have no control over this aspect of our lives, all I can do is hope this will be the case for us.. .. .Chin up lad, she'll be watching you and waiting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

Celtic Emerald
23rd Mar 2002, 00:03
Rover. .. .Death I have found through personal experience because of it's finality & sense of loss is probably the most difficult experience any of us are going to have to come to terms with, there's no way of getting away from that, death is as much of life as birth & while life is full of fun & happiness there is also pain, suffering & grief. Very few of us come through it unscathed & untested. None of us really know why perhaps there is a reason we are tested. The problem here is because no-one has died & come back & even those with near death experiences (which include feeling separated from their body & watching medical staff trying to revive them from above & feelings of not wanting to return & feeling there in a better, happier, safer place) are not always believed it does come down to faith which is a very personal thing. The essense of faith is believing something whether it can be proved or not, if something is laid out in concrete & stone before us we know it's there in reality so faith isn't needed. Faith comes from a mixture of things, upbringing being one, personal experiences, but also how we feel & connect with our spiritual side & the world around us. In the end it has to come from you, all the preaching & ramming beliefs down your throat ain't going to help you unless you come to feel in your heart & soul that there is more than this material, physical, tough life. I've had certain unexplained experiences (& feelings) that suggest there is. I'm happy to believe that but I can't force it on anyone else nor can I offer you 100% concrete proof, I doubt anyone can if that's what you're looking for because no matter how anyone might try there'll always be cynics around the corner only ready to try & disprove & scoff.. .. .Good luck in your search & I hope in time you come to terms with your loss cause much as you probably don't feel it now time heals all wounds!. .. .Emerald. .. .As far the Chief Wagon Dragon, wow what an understatement! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 19:11: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]</small>

Paterbrat
23rd Mar 2002, 00:19
An interesting post immediately after my previous one has now been deleted. It was noted and it's absence informative. . .. . Forgive the digression Rover but whoever else who saw it will know exactly what I mean.. .. . More to the subject however Rover, have just seen a Film which to coin some very corny and hacknied sentiments, was a superb capture of the triumph of the human spirit over tragedy, suffering, mental and bodily anguish over great pain. I would not have gone to it had I realised it was a French film with subtitles, and would therby have deprived myself of a rich experience. It was a gem of a film being excellently crafted and for me was an extremely inspiring film. "The Officers Ward" is set in a hospital in Paris? during the First World War and follows the story of a French Engineer Lieutenant wounded in the early stages of the War. It follows his pain suffering and eventual triumph over his disability and re-intergration into humanity. I was very moved by it and would say that it dealt honestly and movingly with pain and loss including that of the possibilty of normal relations with women. . . Thought provoking inspiring and well worth in my opinion a watch, if you get the chance, I think helps set a perspective on life that may be a help in such a time as this.. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 14:40: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]</small>

PAXboy
24th Mar 2002, 01:37
My reply is biased because I do not believe in an afterlife or, indeed, in a deity of any kind. I do, however, have some considerable experience with bereavement.. .. .This is because, part of my time is spent taking non-religious funerals. If someone has not had religion in their life, then it is hypocritical and simply wrong, to have a religious funeral. I have taken these Humanist funerals for nearly 11 years, under the auspices of The British Humanist Association.. .. .In the course of this, I have been called for all circumstances, from a cot death of four days old to a person of 100 and all in between. The causes of death have been from old age to suicide, from cancer to murder.. .. .I have seen people who have been really battered by death. Yesterday I took the funeral of a lovely man of just 66 years, his widow could hardly stand. A week ago I had to take the third funeral for one family in less than two years. I cannot imagine what they are experiencing, I can only make the ceremony a celebration of the persons life and talk about the emptiness that their death has brought.. .. .When we (and some in this fascinating thread) wonder, "But there must be more to this than birth, food and death?" I have to say that I think that there is nothing more to it.. .. .I realise that my view is of no comfort to you, Rover, but you are bravely looking out into the world. So consider it this way around ---. .. .Life has no meaning ... save the meaning that YOU choose to give it.. .. .If you are, say, a school teacher then you have the ability to give great power and happiness to many others.. .. .If you are a pilot, you have the power to help countless thousands of people live their lives in a way that can bring them happiness - by doing business or taking holidays, whatever.. .. .As a human being, you have the ability and the power to help many creatures, both human and other species.. .. .You say that you feel anger. In all of the bereaved people that I have met, the greatest 'volume' of emotion that I encounter (were it possible to quantify it) is love, the second is anger. Whether the person that has died is young or in their 90s, someone will still feel anger. It is human to do so.. .. .I know of one person whose younger brother took his own life at the age of 20. After a gap of a few years, she gave many evenings a year to work voluntarily for The Samaritans and did this for several years. She found that, having been on the receiving end (as it were) of a suicide, she was well placed to help others. It also, of course, helped her.. .. .You also say that, "The nothingness of everlasting sleep is cold and barren." From the perspective of the living that might be so but, in my view, the good news is that you will have no experience of this. For the simple reason that you will yourself be dead and, being dead, will have no knowledge or sensation of being dead.. .. .You will now see why I have the sig line to my posts that I do! I trust that you do not find it out of place.

flapsforty
24th Mar 2002, 02:16
Beautifully put PAXboy!

Moritz Suter
24th Mar 2002, 10:55
Ah, Miss Forty, your're an inspiration!

rover2701
31st Mar 2002, 12:30
I dont want to ressurect this thread but just to thank everyone who posted for there views. I have now made my mind up what I want to believe and I think most will know which way I lean. Of course I want to believe there is an afterlife and that I will be with my beloved Jan when its my turn and thats how I will live my life. With no proof either way it is what I prefer to believe. A lady pruner, who I will always be in debt to, gave me great comfort when we met for a day and made me realise that there are too many unexplained happenings and coincidences in this life not to believe in an afterlife.
Once again thankyou all who contributed, I will be eternally grateful