Job prospects on graduation.....

[fly_boy 4 flying]

G'day pplz

I'm starting a CPL diploma course with flight instruction this Monday at Basair flying college at Bankstown & i'm just wondering what the odds are of finding a job after i graduate? Under normal circumstances I wouldn't ask (cos flying is flying's reward, not money), but I have a $70,000 debt to pay back which I borrowed from a Credit Union ASAP & i'm wondering what sort of a salary (if it exists in the GA sector) or wage per week I'd be earning when i start out. Also what type of flying for a newbie pilot would pay the best & where are all the highER paid flying jobs in GA at locally in Sydney? I know its a long shot but I just thought I'd ask cos I really need the money to start putting money back in to the loan repayment. Or is it just a case of "don't quit the day job"?
Regards, Flyboy

[puff]

I do find it hard to believe that when your about to outlay $70k that you haven't done a little more groundwork than half a week before you start. If your under any stresses to pay that money back in a hurry, forget about it, IF you find work after your finished you'll be lucky to be putting food on the table let alone even paying the interest on the loan.......lots of searching around pprune should give you a fairly good indication of what the industry is like at the moment, if you find work it will be in a remote area, and it will probably be on a wage similar to what you would be getting on unemployment benefits......in one sentence you mention that flying is flyings reward......the reward of flying won't pay back the 70 grand!

Surely this is a windup?....or perhaps the marketing at flying schools is excellent!

[dwnunderblunderer]

Sorry bro but all i have to say is, "oh my god".:eek:

Oh yeah, do you have a personalised plate like "747plt" or something?

[fly_boy 4 flying]

I knew all about the jobs being scarce & the pay being even worse & I wasn't looking 4 ppl to come n tell me how stupid i've been. Getting a loan to fly was the only option I had if I wanted to fly. All I wanted to know is what was stated in my 1st post.
Thanks.

[dwnunderblunderer]

mate you will look back when you get through to the end of your training and hopefully with a good first job (which will pay around 9-12k p.a.) and realise what you have written. I hope you do well, just keep it real man. None of this "fly-boy" pretentious sh*it. That dosent go down well.

[Ash767]

fly_boy 4 flying

I hope you have not handed over the 70k yet! I shudder to think that you have borrowed so much for no guarantees.

What the flying school's tell you and what is reality are two different things.

I have the lot except an instructor rating I tried and tried to find a job at every opportunity, I do not regret having done what I did. I saved up a lump of cash and then blew it out the exhaust pipe, I did the same for each level of licence so that I was not in debt.

I am now undertaking a Commerce Degree at Uni to get something not related to flying behind me and I am a lot more confident of earning good money at the end of the degree rather than what I would earn in flying.

I suggest if I may, that you only go to PPL and see what you think, do some research along the way. And if you do not have anything else behind you get something!

Regards
Ash767

Ps If you have not handed over the 70k wack it into a high yielding online account to help offset you repayments!

[flametree]

Give the kid a break and give him some worthwhile advice that may help him instead of bagging him.

Are you sure doing the diploma is the way to go?

[AIRWAY]

Hi,

I agree totally with Ash767 post!



I saved up a lump of cash and then blew it out the exhaust pipe, I did the same for each level of licence so that I was not in debt.

I am doind the same, saved for my PPL which im currently doing, now at the same time that i am flying i am working and saving towards the next stage of my flying.

But it also depends on our own personnal circumstances, i can do the above because i am still young and i have no commitments i.e: Children or a house to pay etc...

All the best with your decision

[fly_boy 4 flying]

Yeah i'm only 18 years old & just finished school last year.
BTW, what did you mean by putting the money into an online account so i can offset the repayments?

[ISHIHARA]

Fly boy...

Perhaps with that sort of money you should have looked at a cadetship?

Surely your on a wind up, $70k for training? what have they promised you? Think hard before committing that sort of dough

[fly_boy 4 flying]

Well the course itself is actually $58,300, but my parents decided to get out $70K for other expenses. You end up with everything you need to get into Qantas (flying wise) plus a Grade III Instructor rating.

[Aussierotor]

Go for it-------if thats your inspiration ,then why not.

Hope your parents explained the evils of being $70 in debt,and i hope you dont think its a piece of cake to pay off like my son thinks.
I hope you have a job now or are prepared for night time work and weekends while doing the course,because loans dont wait for anybody----they climb.
Hopefully one day you will look back and say it was worth it,and expect to be in for a hard ride.

My son borrowed(after my donation) a 1/3 of what you have.,to get his CPL-H .Took him 5 years to get a job and that lasted 2 months.Luckily he starts again next month for 6-8 months ,but i think his contract is out after this season.Think gross wage around $700 a week but over a year works out around $20g.
So you become multi skilled then--------pour gas ,stack shelves in supermarkets---anything ,to pay the bills whist waiting for another job etc.

Best of luck anyway...keep ya eye on Pprune for info

[maxgrad]

1. check out course VERY closely
2. Put money in an account and pay as you go, if they don't like it...see piont 1
3. change your Pprune handle....this one may shown an attitude of ...well...others have already said!
4. NT and WA are good spots to begin work , check out some stations as well as GA companies , G3 work is all well and good but you may fing it will take forever to get hours.
5.pay off the loan by working as many jobs as possible and stay motivated by setting goals.
When you get there it can be a fantastic career albeit really crappy pay in GA
Again lose the handle and if your attitude is same as handle....adjust attitude real quick

Luck and 99% hard work
Max g

[cloudcover]

Ok, I admit it...Im confused!

"everything you need to get into Qantas (flying wise)"

Please explain this statement fly-boy 4 flying:hmm:

[High Altitude]

I shudder to think of borrowing $70k for the course. But as you say you do end up with all you need at the end.

My question is who guaranteed the loan? If its the folks then make sure that they can afford the repayments and don't lose the family house if you can't service the debt.

Go for it and good luck. Just try to get some life experience along the way.

Do not pay the $ up front. Worse case pull out of the course, go and get a part time job, live rent free at home. Put $300 per week into flying and in 2 years you will have the cheapest CPL/ Multi IFR avaiable, oh and a sh*t load of life along the way.

You will be more employable at the end.

Mate you are only 18!!!!! You have a life time ahead of you.

[Ash767]

fly_boy 4 flying

Check you private messages.

Regards
Ash767

[fly_boy 4 flying]

Hey guys, thanks a lot or your advice. Your advice is invaluable (and sobering ;))
What I mean is when I say I end up with all Qantas want (flying wise) is that I get MEICR with CPL & Instructor Rating (although an instructor rating isn't required) etc.
Yeah, my family own a couple of other properties so we've put the security on that. I've already got a part time job which pays...mmmmm.......ok i guess.
Ash767 thanks a lot for your pm, i'll discuss it with my parents.
I'll also be living at home while I study & fly too so I don't really have to worry about rent and all that stuff.

[flametree]

Have you checked out doing your training in the US? You can get what they call a J1 visa at certain schools which will enable you to study then work for up to two years get all your ratings then you can work as an instructor and get paid for it .

The way the dollar is I would look into it and I'm sure you could negotiate with them as well.

That and being an Aussie boy over there could REALLY add to your life experiences.

[cloudcover]

Flametree, although cheaper, one should never
underestimate the importance of getting to know
your peers in the country you wish to work.

The "not what you know but who...etc" is still
the key to success in australasia :)

[Luke SkyToddler]

I am a a bit worried about you repeatedly quoting this 'all I need to get into Qantas' stuff ... I hope you realize (at the risk of stating the bleedin obvious) that you have absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting into Qantas with a fresh CPL/IR from Bankstown.

Unless you are supremely well connected (or have a lot more where that $70 grand came from) then you will have to do some long hard years of graft, flying GA and working your way through piston singles and twins, and then a few years flying turboprops and regional airliners before you can get Qantas (or Virgin or any other hot-ship jet operator) to take you seriously.

Money wise, well that depends on what kind of work you are prepared to do and how far you are prepared to travel ... there's a lot of pressure on grade 3 instructor jobs at big airfields like Bankstown and that is reflected in the fact that they get paid absolutely 0.0001% of b*gger all. Like, about enough to pay the cost of petrol and sandwiches and that's it. Forget about paying rent, let alone the interest on $70,000.

I'm not familiar with bush pilot salaries for low hour types but I don't imagine they're anything flash ... and with all due respect I expect you will find that many employers will steer clear of an 18/19 year old for that kind of work.

Listen to High Altitude he is talking sense. If your folks can't afford to service that $70,000 debt for at least 5 years minimum, without any help from you, then you are putting yourself and your family into a very very risky situation.

[JSM]

Spent 5 years working on a mine site, paid as i went, all up 35odd K and then got a job flying,

With all due respect to all those who did Expensive degree's, i don't believe for a minute that i am any worse off at the lower end of the employment market having not done the course.

[Chilli]

Have you looked at other schools? I got a Dip with my flying school and it cost me under $50 grand with Mecir 2 years ago. I shopped around and found a school that i got along with and had a great time.

[Towering Q]

Fly-boy, change that handle first.

It's important to start early if you want a good chance with the majors. Yes, there is more to life than QF. The 'age commensurate with experience' thing becomes a factor as you get older.:{

I wouldn't be handing over that much money with one outfit. Hold onto it and pay bit by bit, keep them hungry. You may also want to change schools at some stage. It's not easy when you've paid up front.

Good Luck.

[eh you! Pilot!]

Why even do a degree, unless of course it is totally different to aviation..... They tell you that it will help your chances of employment. I don't think it does. I am more interested in your capabilities as a pilot rather than whether you can push a pen well. And $70k are you bloody mad....... I would not be paying any more than about $50k....... Grade 3 Instructor.... Are you going to actually use it. Have you thought that if they are offering you this package, How much experience, how many hours does the guy before you, that is now teaching you have? Are you going to be able to impart knowledge/ provide a good pilot out of your students, after just having got your own licence? You appreciate your flying a lot more if it comes off your own back rather than your parents. A lot of pilots I know that their parents got loans or gave them their licence just don't care about their flying and a lot of them are safety risks to the rest of us. Oh and with the quote "everything that QF wants" ...... ****** off and get in the queue behind the rest of us..... ITS JUST NOT THAT SIMPLE..........


Regards
eyp.

[High Altitude]

Get a job, work hard. Give your money to the flying school after each lesson...

What you get in return...

THE HUNGER TO GET A JOB.

YES- Very big generalisation but in my experience the kid that has done it tough works hard. The Toorak mummy and daddy's boy wearing the latest trendy gear in Arnhemland struggles to survive... thats if they get a chance in the first place.

A VERY WISE INSTRUCTOR SAVED ME...
You betcha I was ready to hand over $45k (12 years ago) but an instructor at a bush drome told me I was a f*cking idiot. Told me not to touch parents money and to go and get a job & do uni at the same time. Uni was a blast but didn't last. Gardening, stacking shelves, glassy, pullen beers... 2 years and a CPL with MECIR that cost around $26k with a total of 220 hours...

The other option. Give me $70k I will mentor your training. On completion you will have a MECIR, CPL a GA job and I will have made about $30k.:E :E :E

[the wizard of auz]

take your 70k and buy a nice little C172 or Pa28. put it on line with a reputable training organisation. fly with that training organisation until you get to the PPL stage with your own aircraft at a fairly reduced cost. use the income from the aircraft to offset the loan payments and keep up your maintanance. after completing your PPL, use any profit margin that your getting from the aircraft to go towards the CPL in someones elses aircraft (you need to do it in a CSU/RETRACT). keep it insured and if it gets stacked you can get another one and carry on or pay out the loan. when your finished training you have the option of selling and upgrading or selling and getting out altogether and investing the money into a house or something.
all the while this is going on, keep a job to make up the shortfall in living costs and training.
Just a sideways though. ;)

[poteroo]

Wiz is spot on with the own your own trainer approach. It does work for some - you just have to find a flight school who need another trainer on line....and are negotiable on the 'arrangements' re x-hire and instructing rates.

You might also look into buying a share in one of the better run flying groups in Sydney or Melbourne, where they often have both fixed and r/g aircraft. Then negotiate instructing rates with a school.

When you own an aircraft, then you have the opportunity to fly friends around on a strict cost share basis, and this extra, usually long distance trips, will make all the difference. You'll stand out from the bare 200 hrs CPL in that you've what could be called 'experience'.

One of the big advantages you'll gain from this exercise is that you'll learn to respect the aircraft - because you'll be paying for it! Goes a long way to developing the right attitude for later on - when your employer is deciding on whether to trust his best twin with a 21 year old.

For the record, I went via the group aircraft route, and sold my share at the end.

happy days,

[s/e cessna]

Personally i here what you are saying and believe me i can relate to your situation very well, every pilot should be able to, unfortunately so many of them have the arses to far up their backsides to talk any sense.

U say CPL and a grade 3 intructor rating; Is instructing really what you want to do or is it what the flying school thinks is best for you? If you take the instructing avenue do yourself a favour and see if you can formulate a contract with the flying school so that on completion you might get some work.

In my opinion the extra money your talking about spending on an intructor rating would be better spent getting an extra multi endorsement + 5-10hrs or putting it towards your travel expenses when you decide to hit the road and look for a real job! Despite how negative a few of the above posts have been, there are jobs out there, it's just a matter of preparing yourself mentally, if you have thick enough skin and can remain positive your half way there. Some luck (you make your own)and good timing can help also.

I strongly urge you to pursue your training as a full time student (don't spread it out over a few years, it'll end up costing you more), your only young as i was when i finished my training and as long as your open minded the life experiences will come with time, JUST LEARN FROM THEM!

Good luck and happy flying :ok:

P.S. As most have said the money isn't real flash; i'm sure your parents will understand.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Mate there's some good advice on here.

Rule #1 NEVER pay up front.

Rule#2 NEVER put all your eggs in the aviation basket

Rule # 3 if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is

You're 18, yes it's good to start young but do you want to be saddled with a debt around your neck when you should be out being a teenager and having fun? Learn about life by joining the workforce or going to uni and then appreciating spending what you have earned by your own hard work and you will earn a lot more respect from your flying peers this way too. You need friends in this game.

These courses promise much, but in reality the best way to go is one step at a time. Don't think that by doing it all at once and not paying GST you will be better off in the end., or more likely to get a job with Qantas than those that have done the hard yards.
Get your PPL. Build up your hours getting some real experience on your own, making your own decisions, learning from your mistakes; not being spoon fed from a syllabus by an instructor. When you have the hours and realise your limitations do the CPL, then join the ranks of first-time job seekers.
Then once you have around 500-1000 hours it is worth considering your multi and IFR. (Unlikely to get a job that requires these qualifications with less hours than that) Otherwise you will end up with a burden to keep IFR current which may not be affordable on a GA salary with huge loan repayments. And until then IMHO you don't have the nouce to handle flying in IMC or handling tricky situations in twins because you are still learning the basics.

And do the future students of this world a favour and only do the instructor rating if you have a vocation to teach.

Personally I would never employ anyone under the age of 25, for much the same reason as insurance companies won't be keen to cover you to drive a $250 000 car.

*sigh* I see so many of these young hopefuls in our local lunch bar, not solo yet but all covered in gold braid and showing off and elbowing us old pilots out of the way because we're not wearing a set of Qantas wings so we're not REAL pilots like they will be because that's what the brochure says.... yet I've never seen one of them in the workforce. Bless 'em.

Good luck!

[Peter Brock]

Hey HA...

Sin Bin for you Brockie

[34R]

Some good advice there for you mate.

Nothing worse than people telling you not to be in a hurry, especially when you want to get where you are going straight away, but in this case its very good advice.

I had a prior life to my aviating one, and as much as I wished I had started a little earlier, a large part of me is glad that I didn't. Having an opportunity to find out who I was, make a few mistakes along the way and still realise this is the path for me has, I think, resulted in a better end product.

By all means get the ball rolling now, but try not to over commit and certainly don't substitute quality for quantity.

Good luck to you

[pilotdreams1977]

Well here come some realities of paying back that loan.
First dont forget tax in Australia. If you are making over around 45+K a year, well you are paying around 40%+ tax. Then you have living away from home expenses, rent, bills and food.

Right now I am working hard to save cash for my CPL. I earn about 75 - 85K a year. Once tax hits me, then rent, bills, and variable costs like food and stuff which I only spend about $20 - 25 a day, I only end up saving around $1800 - 2000 a month. Now multiply this by 12 for the year, and I save around....say $20,000 ( to be on the safe side).

Hopefully this will help in your loan repayment plan. Even if you were employed by Qantas, and earning around 75K a year, it would still take you 4 - 6 years to pay that off (not calculating interest).

I was going to take a loan too, but got rejected for even $25,000.....and we even put the house up for security ( I think..it was a while ago).

After that I sort of thought outside the square and landed a high paying easy job...only thing...its half a world away. Cuz of this, I've been able to pick up heaps of life experiences, and even had the opportunity of visiting the big airplane graveyard in Arizona, and watching the Air races in Reno.

You are only 18, so go to uni, travel and stuff, pay your way for your flight training because you will learn to appreciate it. And believe me...you will know not to make mistakes, because when you are paying your way you simply cant afford another nav exercise or to sit a retest. I could name you a few guys who had rich daddy pay for them, and they messed up a few navs, and even had to sit a retest for their PPL. They scored a CPL within a year (and that was several years ago now), have picked up employment but quit, and are still unemployed now. They dont have that drive to go look for a job, because they didn't work hard to earn their CPL.

I am coming up to getting my CPL and some extra hours at the end of this year, and when I finish, there wont be a moment to lose in looking for work. After working for about 3 years to save the money, I am determined not to let it go to waste.