Commanche RIP

[Shawn Coyle]

Evidently, the Commanche program has just been cancelled by the US Army.
Sad to see this machine and the technology advances it represented go by the wayside.
How can we prevent this from happening in the future?

[autosync]

Woah, thats a shame,

Hopefully some of the ground breaking ideas and Technology can be put to some good use in the civilian world, sooner rather then later.

[Flight Safety]

Army ends 20-year helicopter program

Canceled Comanche program will cost Army at least $10 billion
Monday, February 23, 2004 Posted: 1:50 PM EST (1850 GMT)

The Comanche has been a target of critics who say it was an expensive mistake.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Army has decided to cancel its Comanche helicopter program, a multibillion-dollar project to build a new-generation chopper for armed reconnaissance missions, officials said Monday.

The contractors for Comanche are Boeing Co. and Sikorsky Aircraft Corp.

With about $8 billion already invested in the program, and the production line not yet started, the cancellation is one of the largest in the history of the Army. It follows the Pentagon's decision in 2002 to cancel the Crusader artillery program -- against the wishes of Army leaders.

Pentagon officials said a public announcement was planned for Monday afternoon.

Congressional lawmakers and company executives associated with the program were scrambling Monday to figure out the Pentagon's plans.

Sikorsky spokesman Matthew Broder would only say that "we are on track and fully funded until we hear otherwise."

The Sikorsky plant in Bridgeport, Connecticut, where the Comanche is being built, opened last year and employs about 400 workers.

The Comanche has been a target of critics who say it was an expensive mistake.

"The Comanche program has been plagued with wildly unrealistic technological expectations and the bugaboo of pay more and get less. Cancellation of this program would free up funds for weapons that work and meet our country's true national security needs," said Eric Miller of the Project on Government Oversight, a private watchdog group.

Loren Thompson, who follows aviation and other defense issues for the Lexington Institute think tank said he believes the Army under new chief of staff Gen. Peter Schoomaker favors ending the Comanche program, even though the service had been counting on it to provide a new reconnaissance capability.

"The Bush administration has now killed the two biggest Army weapons programs it inherited from the Clinton administration," Thompson said, referring to the Crusader and Comanche.

Earlier this year the White House budget office asked the Pentagon to provide independent reviews of the Comanche and another expensive aviation program, the Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor fighter.

Although killing the Comanche project would save tens of billion in future costs, the cancellation decision is expected to require the Army to pay at least $2 billion in contract termination fees.

The Comanche program was started in 1983 and had survived many reviews. Under a restructuring worked out in 2002, a decision on going ahead with initial low-rate production was to be made in 2007, with the first Comanches delivered to the Army in 2009 and full-rate production to begin in 2010.

[gizmocat]

Damn shame about that. Does that mean Mr Lappos is out of a job ?

[Flying Lawyer]

No, far from it.
Nick Lappos was given (yet another) key position last September and is now heading Sikorsky's bid to provide the next generation Presidential helicopter.
Sikorsky is proposing the VH-92, a version of the H-92 Superhawk, the military variant of the S-92. (Nick was Programme Manager of the Collier Trophy-winning S-92 programme.)
Sikorsky has held the contract for more than 45 years and competition to oust it is fierce. Although the contract is relatively small in US defence contract terms (about $1.6 billion for 23 helicopters if I remember correctly), it's a prestigious prize and the winner could gain the inside track for future US military helicopters.

Tudor Owen


BTW, I noticed on another thread that Nick explained his workload doesn't allow him to post on Rotorheads quite so often at the moment. I can vouch for that. I visited him in September and, as our American friends might say, he's 'kinda busy right now'!

[TeeS]

Just a late night thought, but isn't there something slightly odd in the fact that aviation has got to where it is in 100 years - yet it has taken 20 years to not build a new helicopter!

Sorry, cynical moment - sad for those involved.

TeeS

[wishtobeflying]

Does this mean it's possible that Australia, with the Tiger, will have a more advanced reconnaissance/attack helicopter than the USA?

... WOW ...

I wonder how morale at Ft Rucker is going.

SLC.

[Dave_Jackson]

Fox news; "From the first days of the Bush administration there has been talk of canceling a number of major aviation projects, including the Marine Corps' V-22 Osprey hybrid helicopter-airplane and the Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor fighter jet, but so far the Comanche has been the only casualty."
This raises the question as to what is the future for VTOL craft, and particularly rotorcraft?

A large portion of current VTOL development is directed at UAVs for small non-transportation craft and at piloted faster craft for transportation operations.
____________________

The Comanche may well be the RIP of Igor's tail rotor. Perhaps this is the start of a new generation of rotorcraft.

[The Sultan]

:O About time! This dinosaur of the Reagan era was designed to defeat the "Evil Empire", not a bunch of third worlders with RPG's.

Nick and the boys at Sikorsky must really be realing at the statement that the aircraft was obsolete. In all of their rants against the V-22, no one ever said it was obsolete.

Nick made many posts that speed does not count and range does not matter when denigrating the V-22. The situation in Iraq shows that a speedy bird like a tilt rotor will be far less vunerable to WWII era weapons than the current Army Fleet.

Nick and Sikorsky. Enjoy what you tried to do to the V-22! (nice cadence, aye).

The Sultan

[NickLappos]

Sultan,

Your gloating simply proves what I always suspected. You have as little class as you have brains and knowledge. I congratulate you, it is a rare and powerful combination!

[Lu Zuckerman]

Nick don’t be too harsh on the Sultan. After all he works for Bell Helicopter and that says it all.

:E :E

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi Nick

That statement is a bit tough even for you!! And you're not as old as Lu & moi yet!!:O

[BlenderPilot]

it just crossed my mind to think that one of the reasons for this cancellation could be that many of the tasks that would have been performed with this machine will now be performed by UAV's, am I very far off thinking this?

It's kinda sad but I think helicopter pilots in many fields are coming closer to becoming an endangered species due to UAV's, I saw a demo of a Yamaha R/C helicopter that was used for spraying crops, I can tell you the thing is more precise than any human could do and its only a matter of years until they are perfected.

[Flugplatz]

Hey yoos crazy guys,

Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but I seem to remember that the two most successful 'gunship' helicopters (Cobra and Hind) were originally built off the dynamic components of existing utility helicopters. If the US Army wants to get an advanced scout helicopter in the same type of fashion, might I suggest the BA 609 Tilt-rotor?

With a modified slimline fuselage and the 6-8 person pax capacity reassigned to 2 crew+sensors/weapons, there must be the capability to perform many of the Comanche's roles surely? (not to mention that substantial money has already been spent on the aircraft and it would have a much greater range and speed than the R-66). I suppose it could also realistically be fitted with ejection seats which would improve combat survival rates and leave an 'out' for the VRS flight testing crew).

If I were Bell-Augusta I would already be getting out the old etch-a-sketch and phoning 'revolving door' buddies in the Pentagon right now.

The Flug Thing :8

[Heliport]

Boeing - Sikorsky response BRIDGEPORT, Ct.
Feb. 23, 2004
-- The Boeing-Sikorsky RAH-66 COMANCHE program today issued the following statement concerning the U.S. Army's announcement it will cease activity on the program:

"We are surprised and disappointed by the Army's announcement today to terminate the RAH-66 COMANCHE program. Five of these advanced technology aircraft are on the production line today, and we are on plan for the program.

"While we regret the Army's announcement, we are committed to working closely with our customer and will engage in further discussions to ensure we have a complete understanding of the next steps for COMANCHE. We appreciate the commitment of the 1,300 dedicated aerospace employees working on COMANCHE at Boeing and Sikorsky, and thousands more at our suppliers across the country."

[diethelm]

The glass is half full....

This cancellation provides resources for other opportunities.

It will result in additional blackhawk production.

It will result in substantial political pressure to select the S92 over the EH101.

It will open up opportunities to replace what by any measure is a old and underpowered scout program.

And, quite frankly, as long as there are individuals at Bell who want to compete in such an unctuous manner as Mr. "Sultan", Sikorsky and Boeing will continue to develop higher quality products with higher quality people.

:)

[Rick O'Shea]

Is the death of Comanche also bad news for Bell and AgustaWestland? Is it now be politically impossible for the US101 to win the HMX competition when jobs at Sikorsky are now dependant on a succesful S-92 programme?

[dangermouse]

Well I dont see how having an new order for hundreds of Blackhawk with all the new technology that was on the Commanche paid for (OK not productionised) puts Sikorsky on the ropes, no doubt the best aircraft to carry the pres will be selected and after all we all know that that one is in service already....

DM

[The Sultan]

For Nick from The Sultan;

I am not gloating (well, maybe a little). The writing for this program was on the wall when it fell down (the Berlin wall if you did not get it). I am truely happy that our warfighters will get improvements to all of Army aviation, instead of wasting money on a +$55M ($39B/700ish ships) aircraft that was better suited to defeat a radar intensive enemy instead of a bunch of sandle wearers with RPG's.

Change of subject: Nick: How is Cat A testing going on the S-92? I have been looking for a press release saying it has been certified for this and IFR. Any updates

The Sultan

[NickLappos]

Sultan,

On behalf of several hundred good engineers at Sikorsky and Boeing, your not-quite apoloogy is not-quite accepted.

In answer to your question (proving yet again that your class, intelligence and knowledge are still all well matched), the S92 has been Cat A since the day it was first certified. Take a spin thru Part 29 sometime, the fresh air will do you some good. No helo more than 20,000 lbs and more than 9 pax can be certified other than Cat A.

JAA, Transport Canada, IFR, external loads, snow, cold, and altitude are all successfully completed, submitted and in the approval process.

[Head Turner]

Not too many voters in UK are fans of Bush and Blair for obvious reasons. However I can see that Bush will do himself good by cancelling such a money wasting project.
Oh, oh, I can already feel the knives in my back but those in the Commanche project have done themselves no favours and have greased their own palms to boot.
So why gripe?
If the Commanche program was so wonderful and so technically advanced then why has it taken so long to perfect.
The most likely reason is that it has certainly become a dinosaur by default.
Wrong technology at the wrong time.
The Osprey will follow too be sure. Why? Because the military work on the KISS system.

[Red Wine]

Don't rise to the sharp jabs......

It was an impressive program on the Discovery Channel regarding the Commanche.......

And what ever you do, never ring me after midnight again....especially after a nice bottle of Red!!!!

:O

[autosync]

Looking at the news tonight and watching the Apaches snooping around Fallujah, wonder if this would be an ideal role for the commanche?

A quieter less agressive and imposing looking twin engined machine more suited to reconnasaince day and night seems to be what is needed in that situation, not an expert, just an armchair general.

[chopperdr]

autosync: sounds like a job for a MELB little bird team. tried, true and proven. just ask the 160th
dr

[Watchoutbelow]

Not really the type of place you would like to have an engine failure, better off just aiming for a large hostile crowd, raising pitch and land on top of them like a rock!

[chopperdr]

watchoutbelow: rather not have an engine failure anywhere or get tagged by an RPG, Grail, Roland, AK, etc; but if i do i will take my chances in the mh /ah-6 over everything else.
dr

[George Semel]

Its not the first time nor will it be the last time a weapons program has been canceled. The Army is not going to be fighting on the plains of Hess, or the Fulda Gap. Nor is it going to go to the Gates of Moscow, like the Germans once tried. No the US Army is going to be engaged in battle with piss ants. So the Army's helicopter needs will be dictated by what the threat is and how best to meet that threat. Right now, the Army and Marines are going back to real pistols like the 1911 A 2 Colt 45 ACP with an light rail. The 9mm is not cutting mustard. Back in 1985 the Army adopted the 9mm, a Nato thing. It took a couple of wars to find out that what we had before is what we want now in a pistol. That mistake is being corrected. Its the same for the Commanche The light MD defender is doing well in this new war, so maybe and Updated version might be in the works. The Army is in a lighter and Faster is better mode. The RH-66 while a fine machine, is not suited to the kind of War we now find ourselves engaged.

[Sarik]

On a lighter note....

Don't suppose were likely to see Sikorsky and Boeing doing what Eurotunnel are???

Ebay item - Eurotunnel TBM (Tunnel Boring Machine) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3284949854&category=413)

Any Commanches appearing soon???

I'd bid! :O
S.

[Rich Lee]

The Sultan wrote:

"Nick and the boys at Sikorsky must really be realing at the statement that the aircraft was obsolete"

The Comanche is not now, nor has it ever been 'obsolete'. It has always been an integrated system of cutting edge technologies. These technologies have not been cancelled. The Boeing and Sikorsky engineers who worked on Comanche will continue to work on many of these technologies and system designs and adapt them to other airframes both new and existing.

The easy engineering problems in aviation have been mastered. Our engineers will require both money and time to solve the more complex problems that remain. There will be another observation helicopter for the Army as soon as the new requirements are defined. Many of the Comanche technologies will be used in this new design.

The V-22 is also cutting edge technology and the Navy and Marines believe it is important to their mission. The V-22 would not be my first design choice for an observation aircraft although there is war planner somewhere who probably believes that it will excel in that role after it is fitted with a radar, a turreted gun and rocket-missle systems, integreted-fully night capable piloting, navigation and weapon systems, and of course new bubble windows to improve visibility.

[Jcooper]

Rich, you forgot the 4 inch armor plateing to keep it at MGW with one pilot, observer/copilot, and 1/2 tank of fuel.