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williamsf1
22nd Feb 2004, 09:35
I was wondering if anyone has a link, or info on the starting of RB211-524 H or TRENT engines? I would like to know which spool is started, how, etc.....and anyones opinion on why it is a good engine :)

thanks!

;)


JPM for world champ 2004

spannersatcx
22nd Feb 2004, 11:23
Engine Start
The start is accomplished in accordance with the Manual Engine Start procedure
Pulling the Start switch out (held out by a solenoid) opens
the start and engine bleed air valves. The Start light illuminates. At 25% N3 or maximum motoring, the Fuel Control switch is moved to RUN. The spar, fuel metering, and engine fuel valves open and the selected igniter energizes. One igniter is normally selected for ground start while two igniters are selected for inflight start. Starter cutout occurs at 50% N3 RPM. At starter cutout, the Start switch is released to the in position, the start and bleed air valves close, the Start light extinguishes, and ignition discontinues. The start must be monitored until the engine stabilizes at idle.

ENGINE STARTING
This procedure outlines the steps that are necessary to start the engine.
You must monitor engine data during the start to make sure that start limits are not exceeded. Monitor EGT, engine oil pressure, N1, N2 and N3 rotor speeds, and vibration during the start.
BEFORE START CHECKLIST ............................................................ ..COMPLETE
NOTE: Read Normal Manual Start general notes and starting precautions.
CALL “STARTING ENGINE” ...................................1, 2, 3, OR 4
ENGINE START SWITCH .......................................PULL
START VALVE LIGHT .............................................ILLUMINATES
CLOCK (OBSERVER) .............................................START
DUCT PRESSURE..................................................30 PSI MIN
N3 ............................................................ ...........ROTATING
FUEL FLOW ..........................................................ZE RO
OIL PRESSURE.................................................... ..RISING
OIL TEMPERATURE ...............................................CHECK
OIL QUANTITY ......................................................CHECK
VIBRATION ...........................................................I NDICATED
EPR ............................................................ ..........INDICATED
N1 ............................................................ ............ROTATING
EGT......................................................... .............<100DEG
N2 ............................................................ ...........>10%
N3 ............................................................ ...........>25%
FUEL CONTROL SWITCH ......................................RUN
FUEL FLOW (NORMALLY 0.3) ...............................CHECK
CLOCK....................................................... ..........START
EGT RISE WITHIN 30 SECONDS...........................CHECK
AFTER LIGHT OFF
N3 INCREASE (OBSERVER) ...CALL 35-40-45-50-55-60%
CAUTION: IF EGT IS RAPIDLY APPROACHING A VALUE TEN TIMES THE N3, THEN YOU MUST ABORT THE START.
AFTER ENGINE HAS STABILIZED AT IDLE
START SWITCH ....................................................IN
START VALVE LIGHT..............................................EXTINGUIS HED
NAI......................................................... ..............AS REQ’D
EICAS MESSAGES ................................................CHECK
NOTE: Ensure that there are no EICAS Messages that affect normal engine operation or operation of the Electrical or Hydraulic systems driven by the engine(s) running.
ENGINE PARAMETERS...........................................CHECK
CAUTION: OPERATE THE ENGINE AT IDLE SPEED FOR 5 MINUTES.
ENSURE THAT THE OIL TEMP IS ABOVE -10DEGC. BEFORE
ACCELERATION
CLOCKS ............................................................ ..RESET
REPEAT THE START PROCEDURE AS REQUIRED.
AFTER START CHECKLIST................................................... .......PERFORM
PROCEDURE COMPLETE

williamsf1
23rd Feb 2004, 09:27
Thanks for the indepth detail spannersatcx ! greatly welcomed :)

anyone have an opinon on why it is a good engine?

thanks....

411A
23rd Feb 2004, 09:40
In twenty two years of operating the RB.211, not one failure...altho there were two precautionary shutdowns for high vibs.

Before that, ten years on other RR engines, and not a failure there either.

They are the best, IMHO.

JW411
24th Feb 2004, 03:57
Interestingly enough I have only ever had to shut down 6 engines in my long career and 5 of them were made by Rolls Royce!

I have no experience of the RB211 but I have to say that the CF-6 was/is a wonderful engine.

Night Las Palmas
24th Feb 2004, 04:25
The RB211 is a fantasic engine in my experience. A few years ago a squad of seagulls few through one just after take off. We were airbourne for around 45 mins before landing to get down to max landing weight. From the flight deck the engine instruments were normal and the engine was responding normally. The resulting boroscope inspection showed that the rear section of the engine was badly enough damaged that an engine change was required. Give me an RB211 any time.:D

gas path
24th Feb 2004, 05:05
Wot, No autostart! spannersat';)
Pull the start switches 1,2.3 and 4
perm any 2 from 4 and select the fuel control switches to RUN...... In reality, select 4 and after a slight delay 3 (just to allow the apu bleed air to play catch-up)
Sit back and relax!
Repeat the above for engines 1 and 2.
:D:D
Why is it such a good engine?
Amazingly damage tolerant core engine, simple design and a doddle to work on, and the least fuelburn degradation over the life of the engine. Oh! and no C ducts to work under.
Drawbacks! from a maintenance viewpoint.
Ignitor plug immersion depth is fairly critical and the T/rev is a bit of a pain on the -400 installation.

innuendo
24th Feb 2004, 11:21
(Perhaps this should be in the Nostalgia section)
It is almost ironic that the engine should be considered to be so good at absorbing foreign objects, seagulls etc. Was'nt the problem with the original design which was going to use composites in the fan, that it was too vulnerable to FOD.
If I remember correctly RR was essentially bankrupted over the redesign.
As I remember them on the L-1011 they had excellent throttle response, just avoid trying to start them with too much tail wind.

gas path
24th Feb 2004, 19:11
RR was certainly bankrupted over the -211 composite fan, unfortunately the technology of the time wasn't upto scratch. The government of the day had to bail them out and rename the company (Rolls Royce 1971 ltd or something:confused: ). It wasn't until the mid '90s that the technology became good enough, with the arrival of the GE90, (but even that had to have a titanium t/e and l/e due to problems!!). Having said that the '90 never had to prove itself with a full blade off release test, but thats another story. With such a good fan it's a shame the rest of it lets it down :hmm: All the old cf6 failings and some extras for good measure:rolleyes:
A good way to wind up the GE reps is to suggest that the '90 fan married to the Trent core would have made an unbeatable powerplant.:E :ooh: :E

spannersatcx
24th Feb 2004, 19:35
Wot, No autostart!

If it is an option you have to pay for then WE don't have it. Used to have it when I was at BA but we weren't allowed to use it as ground engineers, don't know why though. Probably because we were better at catching things than the autostart system! :cool:

Ranger One
26th Feb 2004, 09:19
gas path,

Wasn't just the 211... if I remember rightly, the RB162 turbojet (Trident 3B booster engine) had composite stator & some rotor stages - it was called the 'Plastic Fantastic' with a fair degree of irony!

I recall being told there was a tendency for the plastic blades to stretch, eventually meeting the stator with dire results a short time beyond its rated life. Overhaul procedure for the compressor was alleged to be 'scrap it'!

R1

innuendo
26th Feb 2004, 13:26
I was told that it was possible to break the RB-211 down so as to ship it as wide body belly cargo. A useful feature. I remember a 767 that got stuck in Honolulu for a week when it needed an engine change. They had to charter a 747 cargo flight to ship both engines back and forth, very costly.
The industrial version is used in gas pipeline transmission and the continuous operation time is measured in years. Obviously it is not as stressed as it is in aircraft use but one of the engineers involved in the Alberta gas business told me that they had one of the highest time 211s and it had operated without any real stoppage for years.

moosp
27th Feb 2004, 00:48
Spanners, it is a pity that we are not allowed to use the auto-start, or at the very least the sequential start that the CX -524's can do.

I still have a copy of the Flight International article where when HOP was still being used by Boeing for the flight testing the Boeing test pilots started two engines at once. Because the APU can.

When HOP arrived into CX and guys on the line tried starting two at a time an amazingly vitriolic Notice to Crew came out threatening the sack for anyone who was caught doing same. The particular manager who wrote the Notice has retired but his ilk remain, so even to make a curfew, or make a schedule, we still have to go through the ponderous 4-1-2-3 stuff, blocking up cul-de-sacs and taxiways.

Shame really.