Nigerian expat f/o's

[lowflare]

Please confirm for me the rumour that I heard yestreday. Acccording to it, Nigerian Caa emposed a law that forbids expat copilots employment in all companies and operators. Pm's welcomed!

[bluesafrica]

Such a requirent was on already 25 years ago...
Blues

[concordino]

from past inquiry about Overland, one of the PPruners was kind enough to point out that F/O's were all locals.

This is a common practice in many African countries. Unless it is sophisticated equipment operated by a foreign contractor, expat F/O's have it rough.

Angola imposed Angolan F/O's on SONAD's oil operation supported by Zimex on B1900D.

They have put so much pressure that eventualy local Captains came online and the result i hear, few bent planes out of bad landings and handling....:}

C

[Tokunbo]

Just what do you expect? For many reasons there are shortages of pilots in many of the third world countries of Africa. For this reason there are many expat Captains here. However, in an effort to encourage European and American companies operating in Africa to help train local pilots so they can fill copilot positions and be the future Captains, many countries refuse to accept expatriates as copilots. It's hard luck for expatriates but good news for Africans from poor countries as it encourages those with money to train poor Africans with ability to be the African captains of the future.
The Nigerian CAA probably has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's probably government policy. It implies that the government is unwilling or unable to pay for training its own countrymen and is shifting this burden to the expatriate companies operating in (and making good profits out of) its country. Welcome to the real world of commerce and globalisation. Sorry if that sounds stark and harsh, but it's how real life is and now that compamies like Bristow no longer operate their own training schools for Nigerians it's one of the few ways that Africans can get trained and join the international pilot fraternity. I welcome this and hope that it will encourage all those foreign companies operating in Africa (provided they are really making a profit) to invest in their biggest asset - the people working for them - and training Africans with suitable aptitude and qualifications for the future.
For my fellow Africans, I would stress that this must be done on a proper basis as stated and the tribalism and family ties which have given a bad name to some of our brothers must be completely erased and only aptitude and qualifications be allowed to count.
Wow :ok: But this now be de truth-oh my brudders:ok:

[concordino]

Tokunbo,

It is only logical for these things to happen, after all this is how you can qualify local people and bring them up to speed with the others.

The point i am making, there are many places that keep pushing forward those who do not have the skills and that is trouble in the making.

Peace out :cool:
C

[lowflare]

Market dictates one thing,common sense another,profesionalism and proficiency something else. We all know that. So it would be nice to keep these local guys trained and make them future captains with some good skils and knowledge as long as they have the basics and abilities going with that task. Nowdays there are many companies in Nigeria but few young pilots with solid training behind them and not allready spoiled in "lets all be captains in six months". I realy think that those should have top priority in employment. Rest should rely on small operators with bad safety record and no strong policies for safty and ops. I wellcome all off the guys previosly mentioned in aviation comunity but I don't think that any serious company would accept "Any local is better than expat" as long as they want prosperity and growth that will provide many,many new guys from Nigeria to come and become captains of the future Nigerian aviation.

[George Tower]

I happen to know one Nigerian pilot and he's as daft as a brush. Approximately 60 hours to go solo and because of family connections he's assured a cushy job back in Nigeria when he has his CPL (that'll probably about 2015 at that rate of progress).

I'm not for a minute suggesting all African's cannot fly far from it, but I for one believe passionately that in order to be a successful pilot you have go to have that love of flying. You need that love of flying as that is what keeps you going through all the crap times this industry throws at you.

What I find objectionable is the point of view put forward that the operators in Africa are somehow exploiting African and Africans. That argument has been applied to global politics and big business for decades as if they were responsible for Africa's problems, totally ignoring the rife corruption that pervades all aspects of life on the continent.

Legislation and regulation except in matters of safety generally achieves nothing for the greater good. If the Nigerian government want's to train more pilots but doesn't want to pay for it they shouldn't mandate foreign companies to do it. That way they will only deter foreign investment and possibly compromise safety. I favour training more African pilots but not by forcing foriegn companies to do. Perhaps they should provide incentives in the way of tax breaks to these companies, as lets not forget margins in aviation are normally very tight, and these companies have to make a profit. They are not charities or state owned monoliths whose financial mis-management is offset by the hard working tax payer.

Finally if it is the intention to train more African pilots lets for heavens sake get the right kinds of people. Having lived in Africa some time it seems to me that your average African is probably more obsessed with status and image than his european counterpart....you ain't no one if you don't drive a Mercedes S class that kind of thing. Well with being a pilot being perceived as very glamourous the odds are very high on any training schemes that are set up will attract such people who want to do the job because it involves a nice uniform with epaulettes and gold braid, or simply that these people will probably be just supporters/friends/hangers on to whatever dubious regime is running a particular country.

Just my two pennies worth!

[bluesafrica]

I had a pleasure to fly many GOOD Nigerian copilots late 70´s early 80's. Several of them made they captaincy while I was there. I also met few Nigerian captains in Europe, two were flying with Flexjet Europe. One as a training captain.
I obviously met few bad ones but not so many than bad European or American pilots.
There is no correlation about pilot skills and abilities and skin color or nationality. Period.


Blues:ok:

[skygod]

lately, theres been so many accents on the radio, and increasing here in nigeria, not sure if theres any restrictions from the caa. cheers

[Dotun]

Nicely said BlueAfrica. Its true that the NCAA wants local co-pilots, but you only have to look around to find out that this is not the case. NCAA is not suggesting you train an ab-initio and put him/her on the right seat. You will also find out that almost all the companies running the local routes are owned by Nigerians with the exception of Aero Contractors.

Most of these expat companies you are talking about deal with the oil sectors. The company am working for just employed two expats co-pilots and are currently giving them type (company is owned by Nigerians).

Government in Europe and elsewhere around the world have employment laws that deal with these sorts of issues. Africa unlike other places actually welcomes and respect expats.

:hmm:

[Skylion]

George Tower,- It seems that your knowledge of one unsatisfactory African pilot is clouding your vision. One could think of a good few non Africans worth worrying about as well.
The fact is that the continent has a good quantity of highly competant and professional African pilots at all levels. Amongst the major carriers , Kenya Airways, Ethiopian, Air Malawi. Air Tanzania, Ghana Airways and a good number of others demonstrate high standards of pilot performance. Kenya. which has the most thriving civil aviation industry north of the Limpopo, also has second ( RegionAir) and third tier operators, all largely flown by Africans, and very successfully so. Competance and ability is not the preserve of any racial group,and nor is the desire for Porsches, status etc.

[mayotte]

I think in Nigeria is no expatriate employed as a pilot of helicopter because there are many Nigerians available to do this work. Many ex-Nigerian Air Force.
It is my experience that is the same as every other place and there is good and bad. Mr Tower makes his observations based on one person who is like a brush - maybe that person think the same of him!!

lets for heavens sake get the right kinds of people. Having lived in Africa some time it seems to me that your average African is probably more obsessed with status and image than his european counterpart....you ain't no one if you don't drive a Mercedes S class that kind of thing. Well with being a pilot being perceived as very glamourous the odds are very high on any training schemes that are set up will attract such people who want to do the job because it involves a nice uniform with epaulettes and gold braid, or simply that these people will probably be just supporters/friends/hangers on to whatever dubious regime is running a particular country.
But this is true in many countries, non? There are so many poor Nigerians that they see it as one way to get the better life you describe and it is maybe unfortunate then that they have not the same motivation for being helicopter pilot as a European or American, but juste maybe this is why European helicopter pilots always complain they are not well paid!
If you visit Scotland you may have the pleasure to meet one Nigerian gentleman who is Operations Manager for Scotia Helicopters and I do not think they employ or promote fools or brushes!

[bluesafrica]

exactly what I ment as well...
Blues:ok:

[George Tower]

There are several issues here which seem to have been raised from my thread firstly I just want to state categorically that in no why am I making the assertion that race plays any part in one's ability as a pilot.

Coming from the north of England I have been brought up to call a spade a spade and regarding the Nigerian chap I knew was merely being candid in giving you my impressions. The person in question happened to be someone I knew personally and because of this I enquired as much as was possible about life in Nigeria. His family were very well connected with the Obasanjo government which resulted in him having lived a life that most working class English folk could only dream of - he didn't even know how to butter a piece of toast not because he co-ordination was poor just because he had never had to do this.

This leads one of my central points namely that in most of Africa society is very socially divided with the vast majority poor and uneducated with a select few enjoying a life of luxary. Given the prevalence of nepotism, my point was that it would be hypocritical to impose what on the face of it seems like a socially inclusive meritocratic plan of trying to ensure more African pilots get jobs, without tacking these underlying issues.

Given the fact that vast swathes of Nigeria are ungovernable I think it is rich that the authorites there start trying to meddle in the running of aviation companies. I think it is also hypocritical given that Lagos Airport/ATC appears to be as chaotic as many of the reports seem to suggest. I think is also objectionable that at the same time that the Nigerian Government is proposing to spend huge amounts of cash on a new presidential aircraft, they are telling operators that they can't employ who they deem to be the best candidates for the job.

In the UK and else where the general principle that applies when issuing work permits is that they are issued to ensure that the company get the best/right person for the job. i.e. driven by the needs of the industry.

Anyway I'm sick of this now, and wish I was doing more flying myself instead getting my daily pprune fix. I just want to reiterate that in no way am I judging Nigerian/African pilots negatively. We all fly in the same sky and who knows who you may end up sharing a flight deck with so preconceived prejudices are plainly wrong.

Regards

GT

[HappyPilot]

What George Tower doesn't seem to realise is that, its the way he is coming across that makes him seem extremely arrogant. I know a fair amount of Nigerian pilots who are as good as any nation can boast off. George Tower, as eloquent as your last post was, it still doesn't change my attitude towards your blinkered opinion of Africans/Nigerians, as was mentioned earlier, try not to let your view of one Nigerian trainee pilot change your view of African society and Africans in general, seems rather crude doesn't it? Using your very own yardstick of time to flying solo, I went solo in 7 hours, and I did that with the RAF, where as you know, standards are very high. And guess what, I am Nigerian. So please, lets try to make these conversations abit more constructive and less immature.

HP

[George Tower]

Happy Pilot

Welcome to Pprune as I see this was your first post. Your ascendency to the perceived moral high ground in this discussion appears to be just as meteoric as the progress of your flight training. In hinsight I wish the chap I referred to in my original post wasn't Nigerian - that way I would not have created this misleading impression that in someway I look down on Nigerians/Africans in general.

Getting back to the topic for debate (Nigerian expat f/o's) I made a number of points as to why I felt that forcing operators to employ anyone based on their nationality was not the best idea.

The summary of my argument (which has not been responded to) was basically that precluding an operator from employing anyone other than the best man/woman for the job is bad for the industry. Secondly that there are very legitimate questions to be answered by the authorities in Nigeria about the state of civil aviation in terms of ATC/Navigation facilities/airworthiness etc., but at the same time the leaders of the country were debating whether millions of dollars should be spend on a new presidential aircraft. This is an issue of blatant hypocracy.

If you want to have a mature discussion about some of the issues I raise why don't you or anyone else respond to these points I raised instead of effectively accusing me of arrogance and racism.

In your particular case as a Nigerian with British citizenship I will assume you are aware of the current attitude of the majority of the British piblic towards immigrants as exemplied by the Daily Mail etc....in other words pretty xeonophobic and disgusting in my view. You must surely accept that a meritocracy is right way to go and that discrimination on any grounds other than ability is wrong. If you do accept my argument then you must agree that banning the use of foriegn f/o's in Nigeria is wrong on principle. If they want more Nigerian pilots to be employed make them employable (i.e. the desired choice by ensuring their training is the best available) but don't force the operators to pick up the bill by changing the rules.

[HappyPilot]

George Tower,

Thank you for the warm welcome. First of all, let me agree with you on a couple of points. (1)The Nigerian government is not corruption free. And so is the NCAA. (2) The NCAA can do a lot more in terms of ATC/Navigation facilities/airworthiness. There's absolutely no dispute about these facts. I'm all in favour of calling a spade a spade. But(and here's the big BUT), these foreign companies who work in Nigeria are not in any way corruption free either. Companies have a duty to help(in which ever way they can) in the community in which they carry out their operations. In the case of Nigeria, crude oil is the main source of national income and its extraction leads to the damage of the local environment(spillage, destruction of local fishing industry etc). If a fisherman’s livelihood has been taken away from him, I'm sure it would be very comforting for that fisherman to know that the company that ruined his career, is doing something to help in his children’s training and education. If building schools, hospitals, training locals as pilots etc is part of the deal the oil companies sign with the government when they were coming to Nigeria, then they should fulfil this role. These companies are still thriving in Nigeria, and making huge profits, so I assume it seems fair to them to continue to fulfil these duties. And yes I agree with you, jobs must be given to the best people. But the simple fact remains, if there are locals who can do the job(satisfactorily), then it does not make sense to employ a foreigner to the job. Do you remember the outcry in the UK when those telephone jobs were to be outsourced to India? Most countries have these kinds of laws to encourage their own people to aspire to higher and better paid jobs.

I know three pilots in Nigeria, who are JAA qualified, very competent at what they do and unemployed. This is the harsh reality of life. I assume there are a few others whom I do not know. Therefore, it makes sense for these companies to try out the locals. That is my first point and I hope it answers the issue you raised about employing local pilots in any country before foreigners.

To my second point,

I do not seek any moral high ground in conversations like these, I do not seek any moral high ground full stop. You see, you raised an intelligent question, one which would have been answered without any kind of slagging match erupting. You then spoilt things by judging the ability of Africans and their so called appetite for wealth(judging by other peoples reactions to your comments anyway). Let me quote you!!

"In hinsight I wish the chap I referred to in my original post wasn't Nigerian - that way I would not have created this misleading impression that in someway I look down on Nigerians/Africans in general."

You don't seem to understand that it doesn't make any difference who you look down on(and trust me, that is how you are coming across), whether it be Africans, Americans etc. It is the fact that you hold a very un-informed view of life and people in general and that’s the problem. You can only be judged by the things you say in these forums, I do not know you personally and cannot have a different opinion of you.

Coming back to Africa and Nigeria, you seem extremely angry and disillusioned with African aviation, I can only suggest that your opinion of Africans should not be derived from a few bad experiences you may have had over there.

Anyway my good friend, as they say, a word is enough for the wise. After all, like you mentioned, its a small world and you never know who you'll end up in the cockpit with and having such severe opinions may count against you.

In the words of my ex-girlfriend, I shall leave you now.

Once again, thank you for the warm welcome.

HP

George Tower,

Sorry but I had to add another couple of lines, allow me to quote you again.

"Having lived in Africa some time it seems to me that your average African is probably more obsessed with status and image than his european counterpart....you ain't no one if you don't drive a Mercedes S class that kind of thing."

In your last post you then had the audacity to say this.

"If you want to have a mature discussion about some of the issues I raise why don't you or anyone else respond to these points I raised instead of effectively accusing me of arrogance and racism."

Dude, please tell me you are having a laugh, you honestly can't be serious. Read it again and honestly tell me its not ridiculous. I'll Re-iterate my point, lets make the conversations we have here a little more constructive.

HP

[George Tower]

Happy Pilot

Firstly regarding the employment issue, I would say that it would make perfect sense for these Nigerian pilots to be employed in Nigeria, however it is usually a case of supply and demand where ever you are in the world. I guess it would also be more cost effective for any operator in Nigeria to employ locals as there will then be fewer costs incurred due to having to provide accommodation etc.

As you know in Africa there is a lot of flying done by overseas contract companies whether it be in the oil industry or in aid and humanitarian activities. Many countries there for derive a benefit from having these companies fly in Africa and as such as a matter of principle I am against too much political interferance.

Your accusation of arrogance against me seem to stem from my opinion being different to yours. I have lived in South Africa for 8 years and over that time my opinions have evolved. I see Africa through a different perspective than what I did all that time ago. What is without question is that in South Africa there is a new social divide emerging in the form of a very small black elite class, whilst the majority live in poverty. I'm sure you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of true democracies in Africa, and my observations are that the privaledged few in Africa are generally those who are closely tied with whatever regeme is in charge at the time.

[OopsNearly]

I have worked in Africa for a number of years and have found the Nigerian pilots that I worked with no different from any other human being. You treat them well they respond in kind, if you have anything to offer, advice or technique they soak it up like a sponge. Too many expat pilots viewed the African co-pilot as ballast in the left seat, the end result being a pilot lacking in skills and confidence. Who's fault is that? not the co-pilots.

Mayotte's comment about the Ops Manager is Scotia is so true, I really nice guy and a gentleman. I have known him since he was a young co-pilot. He's black, I'm white, but we both bleed red so inside we are all the same. It's what is inside some people's head that the problem.

I have also heard the ACN is applying to the Nigerian CAA for clearance to hire expat co-pilots! as part of the cost cutting exercise.

[no reds]

George Tower,
bless you . Two Nigerian examiners claiming 1400hrs total time all P1 and on 1`11`s (thats Bae) I met in Oberffenhoven - spelling **** sorry - and related to the powers that be . . . the sim was a sight for sore eyes . .

[lowflare]

I am very sorry this discussion went in other,although interesting direction. Either nobody can give me the answer on possible new law or nobady wants. Regarding of competnce of local crews in Africa maybe without emotions we should adress to statistics. How many inci-accidents happend with locals and how many with at least one expat in cockpit? Period. No need for strong words. Competence,training and background only. No black, white,yellow as far as I am concerned. Flagcarrires do not allow expatts, because of that they are sometimes charity institutions for low performers with appropriate passport. Thank God there are some airlines beside those!

[B2N2]

Rumour has it that the airlines in the Middle East are also moving away from ex-pat pilots.
Thinking about my chances as a FO in NIgeria,
pretty much down the drain now huh?
Can anybody categorically state that the chances of a job F/W or Rotary are slim in Nigeria?
Or like pretty anywhere else does it depend who you know?

[chuks]

Just sticking to the question of whether one can resonably hope for a job in Nigeria (the only place I know anything about) as an expatriate F/O then the answer has to be NO. This is because there are plenty of fully-qualified Nigerian pilots who are out of work.

From that one could go on to ask if these local pilots are any good at all, but what would be the point?

I myself once experienced the German LuftfahrtBehinderungsAmt flipping the doormat over to the side that read GO AWAY. They seemed to have some mandate to preserve Jobs For the Boys. I felt a bit bitter about this for various reasons but I did just go away, back to the only place I had some contacts... Nigeria. Go figure.

I have flown with local pilots who were pretty clearly much better than I (and much better qualified as well) and I have flown with others who must have got their licenses off the backs of cereal boxes, but I could say the same about Europeans and about some of my fellow Americans too. So?

There's not much point to banging on a closed door; go find someplace they actually want to hire you, is my advice. That's how I ended up back in the White Man's Grave. Call me 'just lucky' I guess!

[ManagedNav]

Sorry to intrude on this thread but I noticed that quite a few of you have ties to Nigerian Aviation. I am trying to find anyone who flew for Chrome Air owned by Emeka Offor. I am thinking of investing in a company of his and I am trying to get a feel for the man....

[JG1]

If they were competent enough to actually run and maintain a national airline, they would be able to train their own pilots, wouldn’t they.

But they’re not. There's too much greed, corruption and incompetence. You are talking about a country where people have "Warning! This house is not for sale" daubed on their walls so that their houses don't get sold out from under them by conmen whilst they are out shopping. Nigeria isn't exactly the most efficient place in the world and what makes it like that are the people who live there, this is an inescapable fact. If the majority of Nigerians were competent and smart (qualities you would really hope for in a pilot) the the country wouldn't be in the state it's in.

But they're not. It is the 8th largest exporter of oil in the world, but the world's 20th poorest nation. Go figure.

If the (Nigerian) airline operators there weren’t just in it for a quick and dirty, lease-aircraft, no FDP limits, maintenance-on-the-apron, bare-minimum buck, things would be different.

But they’re not. As for competency, take IRS airlines for example. The SA contractors left last December, leaving 3 operational F28’s. Now (3 months later) there is only 1 operational F28. Their AOC was withdrawn recently for safety concerns. Sounds pretty incompetent to me, letting it all go down the tubes in 3 months.

The fact that no-one is surprised speaks volumes.

What happened recently to the Hydro 747 there is shocking, what if that had been a Lufthansa A340? But after a few small reports it's swept under the mat and forgotten about. Because it's Africa, and especially, it's Nigeria. "No wonder.." Do you think Hydro are getting any compensation from the Nigerian government?

There's a reason that Africa as a whole is in the sh1t state that it is in, and that is that the people who inhabit the countries can't figure out how to make sure they don't get screwed by the people who run these countries and the people who run these countries can't do it without screwing the people that inhabit them.

[bluesafrica]

JG1,
You sound like you lost all the trust for our african brothers...
Never mind, I fully agree with you. Nigeria especially is something very very special, in aviation as well on other businesses. But the same time there is unlimited possibilities to make money in aviation, what is not a case in most part of "civilized world".
Wait and see, sooner or later someone will get it right!
Blues
:E

[overtorqued]

I, like many here, have been working and living in Africa for the majority of the last ten years. There are many reasons why Africa is the corrupt, mismanaged, mired in poverty state that it is, but the number one reason is because 'you get the government that you deserve or are willing to fight for'
In examining the root(s) of the problem(s) it does nothing to say things like ".........well there is corruption, mismanagement in other parts of the world", or words to that effect. Logically extending that arguement would have western society in the same mess as African society, which it clearly is not.
For far too long most ( and I mean 'most' not 'all' ) Africans are content so long as there is a roof over thier heads, a little bread in their belly and a cell phone on thier belt. You must believe there is more than this and some things are worth fighting for.
We in the western world must remember that without western 'intervention' the sum total of African technology (sub-sahran) would be exactly where it was 600yrs ago, maybe even 10, 000yrs ago.
The one's I most feel empathy for are those Africans who are driven to improve their lives, change their societies, who are competent , talented and /or well educated and who, by accident of birth, are not tied into the web of cronyism, nepotism and corruption that rules Africa. You can make all the political correct excuses for the failure of African society but in the end, you reap what sow and not much is being sown there.

PS ( Our company became involved in the training of locals so we selected several who we believed had the drive and talent to succeed . All were scratched from the list and the local government provided us with series of well connected boobs who couldn't pass a drivers test....let alone fly an airplane!)

[flyhardmo]

Well alot of heated and different opinions going around. Just to add to the fact list Skylion on page 1 suggests that there are competanat airlines in africa Kenya airways which has 3 subsidaries to its name but also being a subsidary of KLM which is why KA is doing so well because CAA in kenya is bad.
Now for some opinions. Happy Pilot and others you are giving Geroge Tower alot of kuk over his posts but he does touch on the truth which is why alot of people get so upset and no i dont think it was racist at all, just experience of someone that has seen alot.
Another sad fact about Nigeria is that without the foreign companies then the vast wealth of oil cannot be extracted and with foreign companies ther would be no nigerian or expat F/O's to hire so keep that in mind. The right pilot with the right experience should be given the job whether is a local or expat, to ensure a safe flight cause the wx is nasty in that neck of the woods.
Tanzania has alot of very good local pilots and im not talking about the ones of Asian origin (cause 406pilot would think im praising him). Ive flown with these guys and i trust their skills because they did it the hard way, every hour earned flying small aircraft to build up hours etc. There are others i wouldnt want anyone to travel with. Tz is also going the right way with sponsoring and training local pilots.

Nigeria are you listening

[bluesafrica]

Nigeria had a very well runned and Government supported Flight Academy based in Zaria. Quality of training was excellent . Don´t know what has happened for it as my last contact with them was about 20 years ago. (time flies)
Many of todays senior Nigerian captains started from there. Some of them were sponsored by foreign companies based in Lagos.
Blues