Qantas in bar fight with staff

[Wirraway]

Sat "Weekend Australian"

Qantas in bar fight with staff
By Drew Warne-Smith
February 21, 2004

QANTAS has taken on its flight attendants in a battle to allow business-class passengers to serve themselves alcohol on international flights.

The self-service "business bars" were established on long-haul flights in September 2003.

But the Flight Attendants Association of Australia has said crew have been refusing passengers unsupervised access to the bar amid fears that it will lead to greater intoxication and compromise the safety of the aircraft.

"We're talking about an aircraft, not a football oval," said association assistant secretary Michael Mijatov.

"If passengers serve themselves, they'll congregate around the bar, they can pour doubles and triples, there'll be all sorts of problems."

Self-service would lead to an increase in air rage and accidents resulting in broken glass, Mr Mijatov said. Underage drinking and drink-spiking would also be more likely.

Negotiations between Qantas and the FAAA over the business bar have broken down, prompting the union to issue a directive to its members on Thursday enforcing the practice of no self-service.

In response, Qantas lodged an application yesterday with the Industrial Relations Commission to have it overrule the action.

"Qantas expects us to have a responsible service of alcohol certificate, but this makes a mockery of it," Mr Mijatov said.

A Qantas spokeswoman said the union's actions were unjustified and unreasonable.

Japan Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Virgin Atlantic operated similar business bars, she said.

The case will be heard on Monday.

===========================================

[VR-HFX]

If the p....s didn't all head for the bunks this wouldn't be an issue.

The company really is a shower but what can you do when one's own is always full.

Ryanair with an attitude and a captive clientele!

[Aussierotor]

Seem to recall about 20 years ago being told to help myself on a QF flight from Perth-Singapore.
1st drink served at request---2/3,s full of spirit and stuff all room for the coke---bloody strong.
2nd request----help yourself in one of the galleys ,so we did and yes we got pickled.
I can see a problem though with the odd clown who just cant handle his p1ss and gets a bit agro.

"they were the days"

[Argus]

The union concerns about flight safety are commendable. But isn't the real issue possible job losses if passengers are allowed to help themselves?

[mjbow2]

Surely not Argus....

are'nt flight attendant numbers based on seat numbers in oz?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I've always found it great being served in Business class. (well except for a while after the Ansett collapse).

I flew first glass I mean class once. The FA was great... she knew what I was there to do. She'd top my glass up before it was less than 1/3rd full :) I considered proposing :ok:

I don't want to have to get up for my drink... my stumbling might just give away how p****d I really am :=

The only pouring I have had to do is pouring myself off the aircraft at destination..

[Buster Hyman]

I really, really hate to say it, but for perhaps the first time ever, I'm in total agreeance with the FAAA here! (Geez I'm glad this is an anonymous forum!) You can't do this at a bar or restaurant & the legal implications are staggering.

[Kaptin M]

THE LAW stipulates that it is an offence for intoxicated persons to be admitted onboard an aircraft, and that in the event an individual is considered to be intoxicated, the crew are to refuse that person any further intake.

However, it appears from this report that QANTAS are now going to allow pax "self-administration" of alcohol - in an unfamiliar environment for many of them - thereby leaving the cabin crew to act as "policemen".
I can see this ending up in a pandemic increase in the number of confrontations between passengers and CC's.

There's something gravely amiss here, when - on the one hand - an airline publicly denounces the behaviour of a football team that runs amok on their aeroplane, and rips out seats and cabin interiors, but then turns around a few years later, offering a free, unrestricted, open bar!! :confused:

The word "IRRESPONSIBLE" has a place somewhere in this scenario - most likely at the management decision level.

[Buster Hyman]

:rolleyes:

Huh

Try "I beg your pardon"

[Northern Chique]

Drunk folks dont balance well at the best of times... a cranky slightly hypoxic drunk who wont go back to his seat is more than a safety risk to both himself, the staff and fellow passengers.

One wonders if drink spillage / pilferage is going to be a problem as well. If other companies do allow free for all access to the bar, how do they manage it safely so to reduce risk to all parties.

[TIMMEEEE]

Seem to remember a short time ago a particular middle eastern airline that flies into Oz advertising what appeared to be a mini-bar attached to each business/first class seat.

In other words a "self help" bar.
Not once did I see any opposition to this by the media, or is it just politically correct for some dead-headed media twit to not say squat about the middle eastern operator but ****-can the aussie counterpart.

Besides, this smells of a FA union go at something they just dont plain like that could reduce their numbers or some other such thing.The way they're carrying on you'd swear life as we know it is about to end.

For business/first class it would be interesting to see how their disruptive passenger rate compares to economy.

Storm in a tea-cup if you ask me.

[capt cynical]

2 sides to this story/saga

Qantas "Management">> Arrogant hypocricy
Cabin Crerw>>common sence

My Qualifications for above 29 years expierance dealing with SLF
;)

[Kaptin M]

Another interesting point is that this concept of allowing pax to serve themselves booze, is in DIRECT contradiction to a disruptive passenger/hijacking video made by Air New Zealand and used by various other airlines.

Why not go all the way, and let pax serve themselves their meals?
I'm sure the cabin crew wouldn't object to that!

Not much chance of reducing F/A numbers, TIMMEEEE, I think they're down to the legal minimum on most flights already.

[SawThe Light]

A few points to make here:


- It seem it is OK for self service in the airline lounges prior to boarding. I've managed a skinful myself on the odd occasion (without falling about and making a bloody pest of myself) and haven't required further servicing.

- First & business service is usually so good (on most carriers) that we shouldn't need self service. Needed it badly on last QF trip London - Sydney though.

- Travel about in steerage occasionally usually QF. You're kidding me aren't you? How long has there been a bar service in economy? Can't say I've seen much of it.

[TIMMEEEE]

Good arguments guys, but the fact is that a Middle-Eastern airline has been doing this very thing for some time.
We can get on here and give our very learned opinions backed bu years of experience, but we are in a unique position to talk to a company that has done this very thing an marketed it actively as a selling point.

What has been their experience?

Has anyone flown with this carrier and what were their experiences using this self-help basis in Business/First Class?

[halas]

Yep, l have on my last annual leave ticket.

Personal mini-bar in first class only.
The spirits are there but you still have to call for ice and mixers. Seems pointless to me, but you don't have to get out of your "suite" to get a drink. At least you may have an empty bottle so you don't have to leave your "suite" for a slash!

So what has changed? Nothing.

halas

[Q-Tee]

Hmmmm .... I think the major difference between the un-named middle eastern carrier offering this in First, and us offering it in First and business is the fact that they dont have 66 people to monitor in first. Where as on some configs we have 66 business class pax to monitor, and ever dwindling numbers of crew to monitor them.... it isnt possible to monitor how much all those people are consuming. And do we really want an out of control person on a plane, and out of control because we let them get that way by allowing them free reign on booze?

Under responsible service of alchohol laws in Australia, we are now personally legally liable (as well as the company) for what people consume on a licensed premesis ---- QF tells us this all the time, that it is OUR responsibility.

It would have made more sense to create a business class bar area that pax could go to, get served a drink and have a chat with their fellow pax, rather than have them serve themselves.... I could see a benefit in this, as people do want to stretch their legs and socialise a bit on long sectors.

Unfortunately, that sysytem would probably require more crew, and QF cant/ wont do that.... so we end up in this situation.

The business class bar is a great marketing exercise, but not a good operational one ....practicalities and laws sometimes get in the way of the marketing department ;)

The only issue I have come accross with the J/C bar is that customers tend to do their duty-free shopping there..... any full bottles soon walk, as most pax see it as free and therefore not 'stealing'.

[Argus]

Q-Tee

Your proposal for a staffed bar has considerable merit.

Why would it require additional staff?

[Left2primary]

Qantas have a "responsible service of alcohol policy" not a, "responsible SELF service of alcohol policy".
Common sense dictates that this can only be enforced if the consumption of alcohol by individual passengers is monitored and if need be controlled.

Crew have the responsibility to maintain a safe and comfortable environment for ALL passengers on board and routinely speak to people who's consumption gives cause for concern.

This is not done in a heavy handed manner but individuals sometimes need to be reminded of our obligations and that the effects of alcohol when flying are magnified.
No one likes to have to "turn it off " however if the reponse to this chat is of a belligerent nature we are often left without a choice.

Sometimes key phrases are used such as "you've had a good run" or "we'll make this the last one for a while" are used.

The "old school" will provide the last drink as a "floater". Where the spirit is poured on top of the mixer { as in a, " suburban" and coke} You know who you are!!!

The initial gulp is strong and used to mask the fact that the rest of the drink in basically non alcoholic.

People who think that they can try and better David Boon's record of 52 cans between Syd- Lhr are living in the past.The hostie who said "you drink em, I'll bring em" retired years ago.

:ok:

The J/C "self service bar" is a concept dreamt up by marketing. Their concerns relate to getting people onboard not in the "nuts and bolts" of what happens once they become a captive audience.

It is a Mark Newson design and they cost $250 K each if the rumours I hear are correct. They look great BTW.

Marketing are selling the concept as self service but the policy at the moment is that between meal services, the bar is to be "manned" by a crew member.
Passengers are welcome to order a drink from the bar or help themselves to the food set out there but the mixing and pouring of drinks is only to be carried out by crew.

We have been directed by the FAAA that this policy must be adhered to and surely this is the only common sense solution.

There is a tiny placard on the bottom of the sliding front of the bar that says all passengers must return to their seats once drink or food have been obtained.

QF marketing may wish the bar to be operated in a self service manner but either they dont know or care about the operational problems drunk passengers routinely cause.

It is an offense to board an aircraft in an intoxicated state for a reason and even our onboard documentation, which is used to report back to the office, has a category specically for alcohol related abuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HELLO??????

At the end of the day, if it all goes pearshaped because of some drunken yobbo, who do you think gets hung out to dry? The crew member who served them or the CSM who let them on in that state.

The FAAA are doing NOTHING more than helping to ensure that the onboard environment remains safe and comfortable for ALL concerned.

[Aussierotor]

I dont mind the odd drink or 3, but sitting down for hours ,i cant enjoy it.The stand up bar would be the downfall for me.
Luckily ,i dont crave for a drink and havent had one on a plane for years,so i can do with out.
Now ,for a smoko room ,that would get my vote,and would get me on flights of 3 hours and longer,
Can go without a shag,
Can go without a drink
But im one of those F-Wits who are hooked on the lung destroyers------THATS LIFE

[Buster Hyman]

Surely there are some out there who remember the Captain Cook Club (I think) on the QF 747 classics? If you do, how was it staffed? Additional crew, like AN's chef, or FA's from the regular crew?

[Left2primary]

The Captain Cook Lounge was "manned" by a single FA who's unofficial work position was called the "fiddler on the roof".

Although it was well before my time QF operated the 747 in those days with 17 crew.

They now do so with 15 and on the two class, 14.

[DirectAnywhere]

It's as few as 13 L2P. Most, if not all, flights I crew these days have a CC complement of 13.

[Left2primary]

Direct Anywhere,

thanks for the correction.
I do my very best to avoid the 743.

Cheers L2P

[Wirraway]

Fri "The Australian"

Qantas wins on DIY bar service
By Drew Warne-Smith, Industrial relations
February 27, 2004

QANTAS business class passengers will be able to serve themselves alcoholic drinks on long-haul flights for the first time today after a ruling by the Industrial Relations Commission.

The airline's new "business bars" were established in September 2003, but flight attendants have been refusing to allow self-service amid concerns that aircraft safety would be jeopardised.

The Flight Attendants Association of Australia issued a directive last week enforcing the ban, causing the airline to launch industrial action to have the order retracted.

At a hearing on Monday, the IRC strongly recommended that the FAAA reconsider its industrial action, but the association refused.

At yesterday's subsequent hearing, the IRC ordered the FAAA to inform its members that passengers must be allowed unhindered access to the bar.

The assistant secretary of the FAAA, Michael Mijatov, said that flight attendants would heed the ruling, but an appeal would be considered over the next few days.

"We're disappointed in the finding. Our safety concerns were legitimate ones, they're serious concerns, and the fact that the commission has ordered against us doesn't mean those concerns go away," Mr Mijatov said.

Passengers allowed to congregate and drink at the bar would greatly increase the risk of accidents, air rage, underage drinking and drink-spiking, the FAAA has said.

The association also believes the bar flouts responsible service of alcohol requirements and will be outlawed under draft Civil Aviation Safety Authority regulations to be implemented in July.

The airline's internal risk-assessment documents would be sought before a final decision on an appeal was made, Mr Mijatov said.

A spokeswoman for Qantas welcomed the decision, but denied that passengers had been refused access to the self-service bar since the airline relaunched its business class facilities on international flights last year.

Qantas has denied the self-service bar is a security risk and described the FAAA's actions as unjustified and unreasonable.

Japan Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Virgin Atlantic operate similar business bars.

==========================================

[raft rower]

Once the personal minibar stocks have been depleted, perhaps the passengers can start on their duty free alcohol (currently not permitted under Australian law).:uhoh:

[Animalclub]

PanAm and American used to have actual bars in FCL (no J in those days) but it was manned (personned?). I hate drinking alone anyway.

[CHAIRMAN]

STL
Last time I flew no class, the only prerequisite to self serve was you had to make your own way to the bar/galley and be sober enough to ask for a refill - or not drop the bottle and make a noise if there was no one there while you were helping yourself. When you couldn't make the last climb into the aisle it was time to call it quits.
Not much different to business class or the lounge really.

[TIMMEEEE]

Japan Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Virgin Atlantic operate similar business bars.

As I said, this is a storm in a tea-cup.
These other guys use the system so why not Australia?

The airline will trial it and if it doesnt work they'll scrap it.
Pretty simple really.