Does anyone knows what happed to BAE Systems

[peb]

I know that BAE was sold. One of the guys who bought part of it is Oscar Sordo ( the chief of finances). But I do not know what is the new name of the FTO and how is FTO doing.

:ok:

[zerouali]

The General manager (Peter Sadler), Head of Training(Bob Anderson), and Oscar were all involved in a management buy out.

So whilst the BAE name has officially left the school, as far as I'm aware nothing much has changed, other than a few staff having left due to restructuring.

The students I know who are still out there still seem to be enjoying it. It is now called Flight Training Europe. (Basically the same as before but with the BAE Systems part removed.)

[peb]

Thanki you.
Do you know under wich authority are they working ( CAA or the spanish one DGAC)?
I know there wasnt many students a few mounths ago. Do you know how many do they have now?

:ok:

[zerouali]

When I left there was roughly 45 students still in training. I've no idea how many, if any new courses have started.

They are still under the UK CAA.

[peb]

45 people means that the place it working less than 1/3 of the capacity of the FTO.
In my opinion I think that they are not going to last long open.

[Send Clowns]

peb

That is the sort of speculation that you are not qualified to make unless you know the financial details of the takeover and running of the company. Even if the capacity is greater, 45 students at a time is enough for a viable school, given correct staffing and aircraft levels and the right leasing agreements. Such rumour mongering can only damage the reputation of the school unfairly.

This is from an employee of a competitor of FTE, who wishes them well.

[michaelknight]

Yeah right, sounds like an insider to me. :hmm:

[Send Clowns]

I am. Of Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training, a competitor of FTE in that we both train people for JAA commercial licences. Many of my 3000-odd posts have been talking about the flight training industry or helping people out with their groundschool, and have never hidden my identity (I do not use my real name, but many people here have met me personally and know it. I often mention that I teach groundschool, and especially General Navigation. I am the only one here who teaches that subject. If you call my employer it is not hard to find out who I am, or even to talk to me!).

However I know very little about Jerez in the last couple of years. I don't know their staffing levels or what financial burdens they have on ongoing leases, or what their financial backing is like. I cannot say if they are viable with 45 students, but then neither can peb unless he has more information than he is letting on.

[peb]

A few things:

I sorry but I have say it that was my OPINION that they are not going to last long. I think that I can think by self.
I can tell you like BAE Sytems has a capacity of 150 people and if they have 45 people I do not think that sounds good. They have more staff than students or around.
I also know that BAE tryed to sell the FTO to an other spanish FTO (I going even to give you names) call AeroMadrid. But the problem was that they wanted to sell it with the loans includeded. And AeroMadrid reject it. So the finacial situation do not sound good to me because they should have them still.
I aslo that in Noverber every one thought that the FTO was closing down, even their own staff.
And not trying to damage to anyone I just give the facts that I know and my opinion. Everyone can think by them self.
I do not have anything to do with BAE.
By the way do you know what happend to them with Air Kalifa? I do.
How manys companys are sending people to do their training there?

:ok:

[moggie]

peb,

a few facts:

In November we all knew that Peter Sadler (the GM) had put forward a bid by his consortium of 3 (including himself, Bob Anderson and Oscar Sordo), we knew that this was the prefered bid and we knew that there was a better than even chance of the deal going through. Sure, some people thought that the deal would not go through - but it was by no means the universal opinion. In fact, the majority of us thought he WOULD succeed but we suspected that some of us would lose our jobs afterwards.

The gang of three are confident that they can make a successful go of it, that they are in a stable enough financial position to ride out the current slump and exploit the inevitable upturn. After all, why else would they have put their own money into the business?

The rumour was that Aeromadrid were only ever interested in asset stripping the company and it is my view that the current management are the company's best chance of surviving and expanding.

Remember, although sturdent numbers are low, the restructuring has reduced staff numbers, too, so costs are down.

I was one of those who was "restructured" out of the company, but bear them no ill will, wish them well and would be willing to consider rejoining them if things pick up.

As for Khalifa, well, who knows the real story? However, we had that business for a crucial period post September 11 and without it, who knows what would have happened?

[peb]

Thank you for the Info. I see what are you saying.
Do you know if they will work under the DGAC (spanish CAA)?

:ok:

[moggie]

To the best of my knowledge they are going to remian under the UK CAA.

[peb]

I really hope that they change the way that they were doing things. I mean before they want it to have 90% sponsors ( I think that is one of reasons why BAE crash) and they didnt take much care of the self sponsor people. Self sponsor was second cateory students. I hope that they reallize that is not the right way to get thinks working.

[weette]

Peb it seems you work for aeromadrid and you know everything from bae fte or whatever is called.Nevertheless I would like to know how is aeromadrid doing ? From what you read in some forums they are not in the brightest position.
Not paying instructors firing many of the ones making 180€ a month( Thats called fairness) , not exploiting a FFS nearly 24 hours a day ( That s called overcapacity) and many other things.
Aeromadrid had a great reputation, they became greedy and thats what happens.

[concordino]

BAE is looking for lucrative airline contracts and that is why they got rid of Jerez and kept Adelaide.

Adelaide trains CX/QF/EK/CI and recently CAAC cadets. There is a lot of money there...

If Jerez, had similar Long terms contracts with well established carriers like the ones above, i am sure it would still be under the BAE wing.

regardless of the outcome of this new change at Jerez, there is a lot of adapting to be done. :rolleyes:

Self sponsored cadets VS Airline sponsored cadets.

This could pop up a new can of worms ... :E

C

[jimbojetset]

Just to muddy the waters a little more....

The comments being made about self sponsored student being pushed out seem a little unfair to say the least. I admit I left over a year ago, but I completed my course there where the majority of my class were airline sponsored. There was no preferential treatment that I saw at all. I finished slightly late due to weather, but didnt pay any extra accomodation. When it came to the IR, there was obviously going to be a problem with students being ready to fit the slots with the examiner (as he comes from the UK for a week or so) so the solution was.... to delay the airline cadets and put all the self sponsored through.

I'm not saying there were no problems, but by speaking to the management about them (which I, and other colleagues did) they were sorted, or at least a compromise met.

As for the Airline contracts... well there are few out there at all, or the ones that are are not for many students (bar the easy/ctc scheme) at the moment. This merely reflects the market. Pre 9/11 BAE had BA, Aer Lingus, Mytravel, Brittania doing JOC (who have students there now I think), Air Malta and the GAPAN student. All in all not a bad array. How things will pan out in the future I cannot say, or even how they have changed in the last year. The one thing I can say is that while I was there, it was good, in fact I would say great. I have no regrets about going there and in fact, given the chance would go again!

p.s before the obvious accusations, I have absolutely no affiliation with Jerez.

[peb]

I believe that Airlingus is not sending people any more from two years ago.
I see you were lucky in that there wanst any differents with the sponsor guys ( I mean by this all the airline, GAPAN ect). But I know that didnt happen in every case for sure.
:ok:

[Airchart]

This has certainly been interesting reading. Our friend here, "peg", is obviously related under goodness knows what tedious terms, to the Spanish FTO AeroMadrid. Having read several of her posts where she has been kind enough to give us highly detailed information about the cost and availability of courses at AeroMadrid, she now seems to know in fine detail the BAE situation. Umm...interesting.

Honestly "peg", try to be fair. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is not a forum for FTO advertising. Try to be fair to those people who have worked and still work at BAE. And to current management.

You might not think much of the FTE management, but why don't you check out management with Mr.Crespo, at your lovely AeroMadrid. Down from 3 integrated courses a year with over 40 students per course, to 1 intergrated course with only 10 students. Half of the fleet of aircraft for sale!!! No longer the best client for our friends at CLH.

And latest news: Aeromadrid is about to start handing back some of its rented classrooms to AENA (Spanish airport authority) due to lack of business.

Hey there Peg. You might need to start looking for another job!!

I'm trying not to get personal here, but it's not easy!!

I've read some of your posts that are actual lies. It's amazing. You even had the courage to say that a certain FTO in Madrid was in a court case with its students. (I checked up on that myself). Totally untrue. And here you are, at it again. Come on, give us a break please.


And just repeating some of your words from one of your posts: "In my opinion, I don't think they're going to last long..." Umm...what about you?

:)

[peb]

Sorry buy I do not work or study in AeroMadrid or Bae. I give the information that I has got about any place.
Do you know how to read? My nick name is peb. And Im male. I think you got cofused with some else.
What ever you said. I didnt hear that about AeroMadrid but can be true. I have been told that they are paying three euros less per hour to the grond instructors. But I still think that is one of the best with AmericanFlyers and AirdMed.
Do you have any personal problem with me? Because I do not have it with you and Im not going to play that game that you are trying to take me in. I do not know have a clue who you are and Im not interested either.

See ya

:ok:

[Airchart]

No personal problem Peg. It's just that I know many people who work at almost all the FTOs in Madrid Cuatro Vientos and what I've read seems unfair.

You must be carefull when you make comments. You are entilted to say whatever you like, but it's good education not to write things that can be insulting or do damage when you are not sure whether they are true.

Of course it is very advisable to warn people about FTOs that are not up to scratch, but what you say must be true. And quite simply, that is not the case.

This is not personal and I have no intention of making it a personal issue as long as what I read is true and honest.

[peb]

It seens that you have a problem with the spelling f my nick name.
Im know what Im talking about. If you think that they are not true fair enouht but I do think they are. And I always give the reason why I think that.
Maybe I know a few people too in Cuatro Vientos
Anyway I have seen that you never answer my questions I will be pleased if you do it.

:ok:

[Airchart]

Ok PEB! Ask me the questions and I'll try and give you some answers. (If I can!!)

:)

[peb]

Airchart

If one day you have time we can have a chat in the pprune chat so we can talk about things like FTOs or what ever you want. I think that we can learn a lot. Just send me a message saying the day and time. If any one else wants to participate will be great.




:ok:

[machonepointone]

Isn’t it amazing how a simple thread of discussion can so easily be sidetracked into a mudslinging match? However, I have to say that in this instance I agree with all those who disagree with peb. Why? Lets start with a couple of quotes from said “expert.”

“I just give the facts that I know and my opinion.”

“I do not have anything to do with BAE.”

Given that the latter is true (thank goodness), then how on earth can anything this individual has to say be based on anything like facts? Has he ever been there? How many former students and/or staff members does he know? How many current students and/or staff members does he know? How many of them has he spoken to? I suspect that the answer to those questions fall in a range between zero and none.

He claims (is this a fact or an opinion I wonder?) that there are more staff than students. Amazing that, because last time I counted there were close to 50 students and fourteen flying instructors. I have heard the quote about lies, damned lies, and statistics, but in this instance peb has beaten all the odds and managed to negate an almost four to one ratio.

He “KNOWS” what happened with Khalifa does he? I very much doubt it, but just for the record the Khalifa students were repatriated on the 3rd March last year because the airline owner, their sponsor, had consistently failed to pay his bills. When last heard of he was wanted in both France and his homeland of Algeria and was living in London.

He also claims that he is able to TELL us that BAE Systems tried to sell the college to Aeromadrid. B******s!! The college was put up for sale and Aeromadrid was but one of the companies that expressed an interest, no more and no less.

Where on earth does this person get the idea that it has the capacity for 150 students? At the allowable CAA ratio of 6 students per instructor it would need 25 instructors. The only time they had anywhere near that number (33 as a matter of FACT (the emphasis on the word “fact” is for your benefit peb)) was when the Khalifa students were there. During this period the company hired a large number of consultants (= temporary staff). Prior to that there were 20 full time flying instructors giving a maximum capacity of 120 students.

Incidentally Concordino, BAE Systems does plan to sell Adelaide. It has decided to pull out of the flying training market and concentrate its resources on loftier things like defence. The sale of its training organisations has been done one at a time. You are partly right in that Jerez was sold first because it was making a loss (difficult to be profitable when a major sponsor isn’t paying you) whereas Adelaide is in the black. The problem with Adelaide as an FTO (as far as BAE Systems is concerned), is the distance from Europe.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Mach1.1 has it all correct.

I suspect the school is entirely viable from this point on as the mighty BAE spent a fortune setting it all up only to change their mind and sell it for a song.

With limited debts and all the major investment paid for the place should one assumes be able to tick along quite nicely for many years to come.

peb - you appear partisan and uninformed.

Cheers

WWW

[tubby one]

Mach-1 & 3W.

A few points:

Capacity has little to do with the number of instructors and more to do with fixed facilities such as rooms etc. Adelaide for example went beyond their "real" capacity to accomodate Khalifa by bringing in demountable buildings and hiring more flying instructors. As to the viability or otherwise of Jerez I suggest that a student population of less than 50 is not going to make sufficient revenue to cover the FIXED costs associated with running a college of that size, regardless of how you trim staff.

As to BAE being to far away you might like to consider that both Parafield and Tamworth (the other BAE SYSTEMS college in OZ) are in fact run by Flight Training Australia (just as Jerez was run by Flight Training Europe).

As to whether BAE SYSTEMS are "getting out" of flight training I suggest that you read Ian King's announcement of 11 Nov - it does not require much thought to see that there is a longer term plan in place.

But - hell let's not let any 'facts' get in the way of a good slaughter!!!!

[machonepointone]

Tubby One

I have to admit that I have not read Ian King's announcement, so I am prepared to stand corrected. Are you able to give me a source so that I can get hold of a copy? However, my comments on the sale of Adelaide and BAE System's decision to pull the plug on civil flying training were based on what I was told. The person who told me was the former (until recently) General Manager at Adelaide. I, and several others, were given this information less than a week ago.

As for the numbers game, I agree that in terms of rooms etc there is space and capacity for more than 50 students. My comments were based primarily on pebs assertion that there are more staff than students here. Whether or not the current numbers are enough is a matter of conjecture. Of course more would be better, but at this time of recession Jerez is suffering, just as most European schools are, from the lack of candidates who signed on last year. Incidentally, the majority of Khalifa students were housed in a hotel in the centre of Jerez. I mentioned in my previous letter the increase in staff to cater for them.

"Slaughter?" Your word not mine. However, I am not prepared to stand by while somebody who has absolutely no first hand knowledge of events at Jerez, either past or present, airs his biased and malicious views in public.

M1.1

[George Foreman]

I don't post here often (I simply don't have the time) but reading this unfair thread I feel the need to set the record straight!

I am a self-sponsored student here at Jerez, having signed a contract with the company last June, when it was owned by BAE Systems. I have to say that notwithstanding some natural concern amongst the student body at the time BAE Systems' plan to exit the commercial flight training business was announced last September, the transition to Flight Training Europe has been smooth, and life goes on pretty much as before so far as delivery of the service is concerned. The weather is a bit naff this week for VFR, so we are pressing on with groundschool, but that isn't exactly the management's fault !

The new management team are straight-talking and approachable. They are communicating with us and they seem to me to be doing the right things. Sure numbers are down on what they once were, but this is a cyclical business and that seems to be the case at other integrated schools in recent times. New courses are being run every couple of months; smaller class sizes but that is no bad thing if you're a student !

When I first came out here to look around and do the aptitude tests I stayed on campus for a couple of nights and I had ample opportunity to talk openly to instructors and students. I would encourage anyone considering Jerez (or any other FTO) to do likewise.

Before people start sneering from the sidelines, apart from a PPL I haven't experienced flight training anywhere else. I too looked at various other integrated and modular training options .. at the end of the day choosing an FTO is very much about your personal circumstances.

Enough of the brown-nosing .. I just wanted to say that it has all turned out well. Change is a given and no organisation can ever plan perfectly, but life on the inside is generally good, dare I say fun even, and thus far I'm getting the quality training that I signed up for...

Many happy landings to all, whatever you decide.

George.

PS as I haven't seen it referenced here, the new website is www.flighttrainingeurope.com

[tubby one]

M1 Ian King's press release was on the BAE SYSTEMS site - not sure it is still there, but essentially it left the way open for a buy-back!

As to 'slaughter' that was not so much directed at you and 3W as some of the othrs who seem ever ready to go for the throat rathr than look a the facts. Like you I would prefer to see logic and clear thought than biased or plain wrong rhetoric.

Personally, I would very much like to see Jerez and Parafield continue to provide high class training, but am somewhat afraid that both may well find the market against them during the next year or two and that would be fateful for both. as you would be aware the margins at the top level of flight training are very fine, and the opportunities to constrain costs are limited - especially when the biggest single cost item is salaries.

Finally don't forget tht BAE also have Tamworth in NSW which is running a long term (10 yr) military contract.