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AA SLF
16th Feb 2004, 14:10
kinsman ....
America and Britain for that matter are Christian states
It ain't so ! ! ! Even tho our paper currency (USA) may say ... "in God we trust" ... it DON'T SPCIFY whos God that is ! ! yer jumpin to a wrong conclusion there .....

126.9
16th Feb 2004, 15:23
it DON'T SPCIFY whos God No it doesn't. But, if you took the time to read your very short history, you might have noticed that it's written all over those few books...?

Slim20
16th Feb 2004, 22:03
Oh sure, AA SLF, America ain't a Christian country. Who is the "God" in "God Bless America"? Why do 75% of Americans claim to be "born again"? Who invented televangelism? Who is this "God" that your President seems to invoke every time something bad happens?

Maybe all your AA pilot was doing was taking his cues from the Commander-in-Chief. When a head of state continually invokes the name of a Christian deity before rampaging through the Middle East, can you forgive Muslim countries for thinking America is a Christian state bent on the destruction of Islam?

And furthermore... (he adds sheepishly just to stay vaguely relevant to the thread) your AA pilot is a zealot, all fired up from his missionary travels, and decided to let his heart rule his head. Christianity is already the most widely spread religion in the world, and even in our secular societies its influence is well-known. He didn't need to say what he said, and a simple apology must surely suffice. Any more than that and he will become the latest martyr for the strident right-wing Christian coalition in America, and then we'll really never hear the end of it.........

MidnightSpecial
16th Feb 2004, 23:02
Slim20--where do you get your statistics? How did come up with the idea that 75% of Americans say that they are born-again?

No way. Not even in the bible belt.

MS

kinsman
16th Feb 2004, 23:34
AA slf

I think you would have to say America is a Christian state! A brief study of their history makes that fairly clear! We also say "God save the Queen " most folks don't need a picture drawn to tell them which God!

Anyway God is not the issue here, religion is! They are not always one and the same. If they were the world would not be so divided.;)

Airbubba
17th Feb 2004, 00:34
>>I think you would have to say America is a Christian state! A brief study of their history makes that fairly clear!<<

That may be absolutely true but you could never say that in the politically correct U.S. without catching a lot of flack.

My company sent a holiday season memo reminding that only "religion neutral" symbols and greetings were permitted on company property.

Ironically, I was in Malaysia, Taiwan and Japan over the holidays and in each place Christmas symbols were in abundance. The hotel in K.L. had a tasteful manger scene that would never be permitted in public in the U.S.

I've certainly made potentially religious inflight PA's announcing sunset for the benefit of observant Jews and Muslims - outside the U.S. of course.

Norman Stanley Fletcher
17th Feb 2004, 07:11
As a committed Christian myself, I am inevitably intrigued by this post. I find myself totally agreeing with the AA pilot's sentiments yet feeling that he used an inappropriate forum to share them! As I have read some of the extremely abusive and anti-religious sentiment on this thread though, I just cannot agree with some of the more extreme and atheistic views expressed.

It is apparent that many 'secularists' have been offended here by the overt presentation of religious views - such is life. The suggestion that 'secularism' is not in itself a religious position is clearly not true. The followers of secularism, many of whom appear to have contributed to the debate thus far, seem to feel that theirs is the only value system now valid and that anyone who does not fall in behind them is a religious maniac. I have learnt that those who are radically opposed to being 'indoctrinated' are almost invariably those who wish to indoctrinate those around them with the issues that are important to them - be they secularism, atheism, racism, zen buddhism, extreme right wing conservatism, nationalism etc etc. Over the years, I have had to listen to some very extreme views being expressed by my fellow pilots on a wide variety of issues and I have done everything I can to ensure I listen politely and participate to the best of my ability. Every now and then, when it is appropriate, I also like to talk of the things that are important to me and that inevitably includes my Christian faith. That does not make me a religious nutter any more than it makes the pilot who is telling me about some woman he has met a sex offender.

The issue here, however, is different. However well-intended this announcement was, it could be perceived as an abuse of a priveleged position. Inevitably a Captain's comments on the PA system will be perceived by passengers as representing the views of his airline and therefore he is not a free agent at that moment. My own view is that, although I am personally both a committed and convinced Christian, it would not be appropriate to air those views over the PA as at the moment of speaking I would be effectively presenting those views as being those of my employer. The correct response in this situation is no more than a rebuke and an explanation to the particular pilot of his responsibilities when representing AA.

Come on all you secular humanists and atheists out there - let's have your best shot! (Dive for cover!)

AA SLF
17th Feb 2004, 13:16
Ah Norman Stanley - yer a good man, I must say. Even if yer are a Brit ... :p ... I promise not to hold that agin ya! ;)

NFS - of all the 7+ pages of postings on this thread, I believe yours is the best; most well balanced, and erudite. I especially liked the fact that you included the ... extreme right wing conservatism folks in your sentence there, cause I have a particular bone to pick with those folks being as where I live now and where I grew up, which is where I live now - amazingly (Texas, that is).

* yeh, yeh, I know my grammer ain't up to the English standard, but after all, I am just a poor redneck country boy from Texas and shud merit some slack no?

My religion is just that - mine - and I ain't gonna discuss it with ya. Hopefully, y'all will do the same!! Sadly tho, some of yaz let me down on that simple point. But I will say that I will call myself a "christian" and that I consider myself to be "religious" .... other than that it is "end of subject"!

I agree with NFS , the Capt. in question was wrong in what he did, being the "where" he did it.

I tend to side right up with T. Draper - who believes that most of the worlds great ills have come from "religion" thru the years.

Oh yes, let me think now, seems I recall somethin about King Henry-8th. and the Anglican church and all that English history. 'Fraid I can't find a similar situation over here - ya know we gots a "Constitution" that some of us are very proud of (now understand this does not include Southern Baptist like Pat Buchanen or Dubya) ..... :p

Back to the rantin and ravin folks who wants to take the **** out of the USA folks ..... :suspect:

Have a nice day - Y'all ..... :cool:

Luke SkyToddler
17th Feb 2004, 20:39
Makes me laugh, given the countless billions of taxpayer dollars the US Govt has spent over the last couple of years, to keep potentially unstable religious fundamentalists OUT of aircraft.

Fanaticism of ALL types is totally unacceptable in the post 9/11 context. There is an incredible set of double standards already being shown here. If that guy was a muslim and had done the same thing, I bet the plane would have had two squadrons of fighters escorting it to the nearest airbase and his ass would have been cooling in Guantanamo Bay before the turbines had even spun down.

I wonder how the Saudi govt would take it if the guy was rostered on to fly a flight that took him, say, within a hundred miles of Mecca or Medina? Or a Hajj charter :ok: I bet I know what would happen if the boot was on the other foot.

If there's any justice in the world he should be not only banned from holding a pilot's licence, but also put on a blacklist of potentially dangerous passengers to be refused embarkation.

RRAAMJET
17th Feb 2004, 21:15
Luke - are you kidding? With an election coming up and Dubya dependent on the right wing church-going conservatives as his power base?

No, he'll probably get away with just a rap on the knuckles, despite the horrendous PR the incident has generated for us.

IMO, a disgraceful abuse of command privileges, busting all the guidance in our manuals and placing the crew in an awkward situation unnecessarily. This Capt is extremely fortunate that he did not cause an in-flight "disturbance".

Maybe if we change the relevant pages in the manual to read:
"The 10 Commandments of PA's" he'll actually read them... :rolleyes:

Mac the Knife
18th Feb 2004, 00:44
What a truly sensible and humane post Norman Stanley Fletcher.

While I happen to be a Pelagian Syncretist (courtesy of Tartan Gannet) rather than a christian of any specific beliefs, I agree wholeheartedly with your observations.

[I don't actually know who God is, but I suspect Linus Torwalds is the Messiah....]