ISK Superbase!

[SandyPit]

Heard from a good source that Kinloss will be hosting other large ISTAR assets on a permanent basis.

Word has it that there will only be 9 or 12 MRA4s after the defence cuts and Kinloss will lose a Sqn (rumoured to be 206). The investment in Kinloss over the last 10 years will not justify relocation of the fleet (new gym, sgts mess, ground eng sect, 3 sqn buildings, supply, OCU/Nim school building, sim, software support, Hive... all less than ten years old). Not to mention the new ops building under construction (twice the size of the current building) and then strengthening of all taxiways and apron a few years ago.

Kinloss will be very empty with that few aircraft and could easily integrate the E3s and R1s. There would even be room for ASTOR.

We'll all have to wait and see..... but if I were a betting man....

[bluetail]

Sandy

You missed one important thing, "THE GOLF RANGE"

[circle kay]

All the golf range needs is some netting that withstands more than 10 kts of wind ( now who would expect that in Northern Scotland ):rolleyes:
DPA are on the case... with £10M and 5 years we can all park our cars in relative safety!!!

[Ginger Beer]

Nice try fella,

Not a cat in hells chance of getting E3s, R1s or Astor up to ISK. For the same reasons as you have already suggested; there has been soooo much dosh spent and planned to be spent at Waddo that not even our brain donor hierarchy would consider it.

Do you really think they could afford a similiar recruitment/retention problem with those fleets as you guys are experiencing????????? NO WAY

I do hear from reliable sources that one of the Northern Scotland bases is up for closure though, Lossie is the probability:E

You guys are too fat, dumb and happy:= to move anyway, if the truth were really known.

GB

[Phoney Tony]

ISK could never be a super base.

Large with more ac maybe but never super.

Rwy at ISK not long enough for E3D and the camp is not big enough for FC egos.

[insty66]

My friends and contacts up there and various letters floating around do indeed suggest that a contraction of Lossie is already happening.
As for the theory that they've spent so much at ISK it'll never close down, it never protected Finningley:{ and having been at 5 stations that either closed flying ops or got rid of RAF presence, most have spent money on welfare projects right up to closure. My guess is political expediency will win over pratical requirements, it usually does.:\

i really should proof tead befoer posting.

[vascodegama]

I can't quite see where they would put all the GR4s if Lossie closed. Other rumours suggest loss of F3 sqns (3?) and one GR4. as said earlier the recent expenditure on a base is no guarantee of non-closure, FY was indeed a classic example. How long did we wait for a new Nav School and how much use did we get out of it?

[The Gorilla]

Actually I think you might find that in the new Dads Air Farce - No MRA4 and only 4 Nimrods Mk2 required, that both ISK and Lossie will shut and relocate to Waddo!!

:ok:

[Big Cheese1]

vascodegama,

Where'd you hear about 3 f3 sqns???

The RAF is being ripped to shreds

[Stan Bydike]

Gorilla,

Heard that one too. Along with the most wonderful phrase yet from the spinmeisters. The RAF will enjoy a "capability holiday".

Is there any point being here any more.:sad:

[Biggus]

Phoney Tony

Runway at ISK not big enough for E-3D eh? I have been parked there north side before with a US E-3 just next to me. Do they need less runway then? You are probably right about FC egos though from the few I have met. Not that I can see anything from Waddington moving, I think SandyPit is on a bit of a fishing expedition/wind up!!

[Yeller_Gait]

Biggus,

Phoney is quite right that the runway at ISK is not long enough for a D, indeed the runway at Wadd should be at least 1000" longer to allow for better take-off performance/safety margins.

Perhaps if another 3000" was added to the western end extending into the bay, then it would be just like Gibraltar.

[Gainesy]

As others have pointed out, spending lots of dosh is not an indication of retention. cf Acklington, Stradishall, Finn, Chiv etc, etc.:(
Bin Trident. WTF use is that?

[SandyPit]

Maybe it was my immagination, but I've seen E3Ds parked at Kinloss many a time. I will accept though, I don't know if they were taking off with maximum fuel.

As for Lossie closing. Nah. My money is on Leuchars. Prime real estate and if Typhoon is delivered to Con/Leem then Leu will be the final operating place for the F3 (providing they don't cut the numbers first) and close on down afterwards.

At Kinloss the 'old' ops building and sim could be used for the (ex) Waddo aircraft sqns/support.

[Straight Flush]

Sandy pit has a point though, E-3s regularly come up to ISK. It's more a question of, the boys down south don't like the sound of having to give up RAF England. :{ It makes far sense to move all and sundry to ISK because of the points stated at the outset. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see what B.S. our lords and masters decide is right for us:ugh:

[Avoiding Action]

Leuchars shutting...:confused:

Wot, and lose the massive income and prestige of all those bizjets coming in for the golf?

Hmmm, it's so improbable I wouldn't put it past our lords and masters to do it:{

[ZH875]

Perhaps all three 'overseas' Scottish bases will be handed over to the 'Free Scottish Air Force' upon devolution from England.

Now what aircraft should they have and why?

My Choice:

Buccaneer - if only to see the beast at V low level through the valleys

FSTA - As the Bucc doesn't need a tanker, it will not matter how late the FSTA is.

FLA - As the bucc has a pannier to carry its spares, the A400 can be late.

And not forgetting the Typhoon, as we haven't got any Buccs, no FSTA and no FLA then they do not need defending yet and the Typhoon can be a few more years late.

[Mad_Mark]

Perhaps all three 'overseas' Scottish bases will be handed over to the 'Free Scottish Air Force' upon devolution from England.

I think you will find that Scotland has had devolution now for a few years :rolleyes:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[I was Lucky_B*]

Look it's obvious to everyone that there is a station not too far away from Waddo that would have enough room for however many nimrods are left, used to handle the Vulcan(God Bless Her) and it would sure wind the Red arrows up if they had to move again!

[trap one]

Ladies/Gents. With the Times article (covered elsewhere) do you think that there will be any requirement to move the MR2 Sqns at KS anywhere other than the Second Hand Sale Lot. 6 bases and 7000 jobs, 3 F3 sqns 4 Jag sqns and a GR4 sqn? will leave alot of space at other bases. Mind you don't suppose any on the Nimrod fleet would fight going back to St Mawgan, a 2 sqn MR4 base, perchance.
As for the E3D being at KS not a problem on length as we have used it on a reqular basis.

[Shackman]

As it always seems that the airfield having the most money spent on it is normally the one most likely to close

As others have pointed out, spending lots of dosh is not an indication of retention. cf Acklington, Stradishall, Finn, Chiv etc, etc.

(Thank you Gainesy)

the answer must be to think laterally and look for the airfield that has had the least spent on it as the one most likely to stay open.

May I therefore suggest Chetwynd as the most likely candidate (although the man that cuts the grass is an ongoing expense). I look forward to seeing all ISK assets operating out of there!

PS Just watch out for the soft bit at the South Western end - it still hasn't recovered from the attentions of the Herc that tried to plough it up

[Magic Mushroom]

SandyPit,
I don't think that your source is quite as good as you think. It makes no sense whatsoever to move the ISTAR fleets up to Kinloss.

Firstly, investment in Waddo over the last 5 years (let alone 10!) totally outstrips that at Kinloss. We also have had a new Sgt & WOs Mess, gym, Hive (oops sorry, I mean 'Integrated Welfare Facility'!), MT and taxiway refurbishment. Additionally however, there has been major investment for Sentinel involving building the huge 5 Sqn HQ, Sentinel sim building and refurbishing hangars. Currently, there is also an Officers' Mess extension going up to accomodate the Sentinel guys.

Going back 10 years, AWC, EWAD and EWOSE have all had large and extremely expensive buildings produced. The former also includes the 51 Sqn HQ and EROSS.

Additionally, whilst we can easily operate out of Kinloss in an E-3D, your teeny weeny runway places some endurance limitations on us, despite what Trap One suggests.

Accordingly, I would suggest it very unlikely that anything will happen to Waddo. Indeed (for what it matters) we've been told as much by several 'star' ranks lately. And they would never tell porkies would they?!!!

If I were a betting man I'd say that there is a strong likelyhood that Scampton will be reborn. Nimrod MR2s (although you may need a runway stretch?), 1ACC, TCW, a CRC have all been linked to that unit.

Here's my prediction of what the RAF will look like in 2010:

Benson: Chinook, Merlin.
Coningsby: Typhoon.
Marham: GR4 (+ Global Hawk?).
Waddington: E-3D, Sentinel, Nimrod R1.
Scampton: Nimrod MR2.4 (+Predator?), Reds, TCW, 1 ACC etc.
Brize: A330, C-17, C-130J, A400M.
Cranwell: MFTS.
Shawbury: DHFS.
Cottesmore: GR9.
Leuchars: Typhoon.
Lossie: GR4.
Valley: Hawk.

I certainly envisage huge real estate sales by the MoD in the next 5 years.

And before all you Nimrod types go into Silverback, Alfa male mode and start accusing me of Kipper bashing again, when the E-3D first started at waddo 13 years ago, I actually rekoned that we'd have been better up at Lossie or Kinloss. This was due to the large amount of Nav and AEO wasters whose only motivation to get onto the E-3D was to get away from Scotland and who did no credit to the aircrew branches. I'm BLOODY glad we're not in Scotland now mind!

Regards,
M2

[Charlie Luncher]

M2

Believe that is still the case for most of your operators, if they cant cut it on the frontline we send them to the rear with the gear.:E

If they did move the ISTAR assets north I reckon I could hear the PVRs being scribbled from the EX 42 mob from here. :8

Couldn't resist cause I'm weak

Charlie sends

[insty66]

MM .......as has been said here before, spending is no defence against political considerations.
My opinion is that neither Waddo or ISK have the space to maintain all the capabilities that the future RAF will require so they are probably both safe.
As for your 2010 predictions ..do you have an inside track? TCW at Scampton is a strong rumour, although I'm not sure what Lincoln council and the locals would think of increased noise, especially if there are no pretty patterns in the sky.
St Mawgan will never be home to loud a/c again. Tourism will see to that.

All we know is "nothing is certain."

[Magic Mushroom]

Charlie,
In the early days of the E-3D, it was very clear that a large amount of dead wood had been offloaded from the Nimrod fleet onto Shacks. And boy did it show when they tried to convert.

Thankfully, with a few notable exceptions, that is now no longer the case. As a result, most adapt to the additional operational demands of serving on fleets with a purpose! They all do find the amount of radios and intercoms that we have a bit of a challenge mind. :E

Insty,
Agree ref the money thing, but the buildings (especially that of AWC) are so specialised that it would cost hundreds of millions to upsticks and move.

As far as my inside track goes, it is partly based on various snippets from Air Officers' speeches during recent visits, but mainly on sensible predictions on what the Service will need and can afford. Thankfully, Lincolnshire is extremely pro-RAF and the initial press leaks about the re-birth of Scampton were generally well received. They just think of the investment in the local economy! It also makes sense to move the MR2.4s down south so that they can fulfill a useful role as spares for the R1s!!! :E

However, good old DHE are still flogging the MQs at Scampton!! No doubt that we'll be buying them back at double the price soon!

Sadly, I also agree on St Mawgan.

Regards,
M2

[Small Spinner]

M2
I think you will find that alot of the deadwood stopped briefly in the Nimrod world, having been paid off by the demise of the Vulcans and Victors. They couldn't hack it there so found a safe office in the sky where you are treated like kids ( a hang over from our American cousins) "you must sit down in your seat now we are approaching 10,000ft and will be landing in 30 minutes"

It seemed to me that the majority of deadwood you had in the E3 world were ageing Flt Lts and Sqn Ldrs taking seats in the back 2 rows that much more able and cost efficient AE's should have done. Still that whole debacle shows just how much lack of support the AE branch were given from their lordships, and the extent of the ignorance they had of the role of the AEOp.

I still believe to this day that 50% of the Air Officers think that AE stands for Air Engineer, and there is some firm quotes to back that up to an extent.

You have to be 100% behind someone to stab them in the back:ok:

[Mad_Mark]

As a result, most adapt to the additional operational demands of serving on fleets with a purpose!

MM, having read your posts for a long time now, I have come to the conclussion that you really are a narrow minded, grade A knobhead! Just stick to talking on subjects that you actually know something about.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[SandyPit]

MM,

Who said anything about moving AWC up north! Get your facts right you maggot!!

[Straight Flush]

M2

Why is it that when ever anybody speaks of moving the RAF's biggest kipper wastebin anywhere north of the Humber you always go on the defensive?? It's a well known fact that those who can't hack MR2's get the cushy position on the E-3. It is a resting ground for the old and retiring, when there are more able guys stuck north of the bordder that deserve the chance to spread their wings and do something different for a while. Where are you guys now, probably scratching your arses in Italy, whilst the MR2 is still in theatre carrying out a much needed task.

Is the reason you get all defensive because you fall into said "wastebin"??????:\

[elderforest]

Hi All,

Interesting to see Magic Mushroom and others predicting the demise of Wittering & Leeming - we shall see!

Seems strange in these times of tight purse strings that Honnington stands empty of aircraft. I know that it is the home to the RAF Regiment and has 'recently' hosted boltholes from the UASFE and RAF - but why were the Tornado's moved out in the first place? I'm nudging towards the Lossie squadrons coming down south (but losing a GR.4 sqn in the process) . .

Cheers.

Elderforest.

[Biggus]

Can't see ISK becoming a 'superbase', but I can see Lossiemouth closing. Some GR4 Sqns being "mothballed" (i.e cut!!), others relocating down south, so all Strike Attack assets are located close to each other. The one exception being the GR4 OCU which will move to Kinloss, so they can still practice all that low level flying in the Scottish Highlands!!

Why spend money on upgrading Scampton to move MR2s there when Kinloss is already fully functional!!

As for MM, he had the nerve to have a pop at me on another thread for daring to suggest that he had an "E-3Ds can do everything attitude"!!! Consider this MM, the E-3D was procured for the cold war as an Air Defence AEW asset, which I understand it does bu**er all of these days, as we only fight guys we already have air superiority over!! However, it has evolved into more of a C&C platform, and various other roles. Has MM not considered then that perhaps the MR2 has also evolved into a variety of roles other than its most obvious ones, which believe it or not do have a purpose!

If MM manages to convince MOD that MR2s 'don't have a purpose' perhaps all my mates on the Kipper fleet can stop going away to a variety of places, including some that are hot and sandy!! Are there any E-3Ds still flying in the Gulf, or have they served their 'purpose' and gone home for tea and medals, while various other RAF fleets carry on with the job??!!!!!

[Magic Mushroom]

Mad Mark, Straight Flush, Biggus,

When I put a :E or other such symbol at the end of a sentance, it means that it is BANTER and not meant seriously! Charlie Lurcher gave a bit of banter out, so I bantered back. No offense was intended.

I would also suggest that it is just a tad arrogant to suggest that only individuals who can't hack Nimrod MR2s get posted to The E-3D. The AEOps that we get on the E-3D are mostly very experienced guys from your own or other fleets who have done perfectly well previously (as evidence by their F5250s). Although we've had one or 2 weak ab initios from Cranwell, most are well up the course and at least one came top.

As far as age goes, the average is certainly higher than the Nimrod fleet, mainly because until recently, PMA have not posted ab initios to the jet. In particular, I would agree that the CO posting was indeed seen as a 'final tour' option by PMA. Thankfully, that policy is now changing due to the problems it created within the E-3D fleet.

As I've said many times before on the MRA4 thread, I am more than aware that very little of what the Nimrod MR2 fleet does these days is maritime orientated. I don't doubt that the majority of what you currently do is important. I do believe however that a few roles of the MR2 could possibly be migrated to other fleets or UAVs; my comments on the MRA4 thread were an attempt to have an intelligent debate on the subject. Similarly, I've said many times that the MRA4 is potentially an excellent and versatile bit of kit.

And once again, Biggus, nowhere have I ever suggested that an E-3D can 'do everything'.

Small Spinner,
Very much agree with your comments ref the ex V bomber guys in the early days of the E-3D. Generally, the ex Vulcan and Shack aircrew (don't believe that we ever had any ex Victor guys down the back of our jet) were very poor. It was an ideal opportunity for the NCA world to have made their mark in 1991 on a new and high profile ac.

The AEOps we get on the jet these days in the surveillance role are mostly excellent and I for one would rather have them than the TG12 guys. I was present at one of the notorious 3* rank, 'so is the Air Eng job interesting on the E-3D?' comments to a MAEOp. His initials were DH, and he's now in DIS. If you know the guy, you can imagine the sarcasm that the 3* got back!!

Now, to get back to the original subject of this thread...

Sandy Pit,
The reason that I mention AWC was that you suggested that 51 Sqn could move up to Kinloss. Much of the AWC EWAD and EWOSE facilities are related to 51 Sqn support. IMHO that would be a considerable disincentive to moving the R1's up north.

Biggus,
Perhaps in my assessment of what airbases will remain in 2010, I should have said Kinloss or Lossie. I agree, some of the GR4s will go, and it may well be Lossie that closes rather than Kinloss. But I can't see both surviving. As you say, the GR4s like Lossie due to it's proximity to the Highland OTAs, so I rekon it'll be more than just XV(R) that'll remain.

As far as Scampton goes, it appears that there will be considerable investment there anyway. I'm not sure whether the MR2/MRA4 would require a runway extension or not, and that may not be possible anyway. However, it may be attractive to locate all the ISTAR fleets at Waddo/Scampton. At the end of the day, Lyneham is fully functional. However, it didn't stop that getting the chop and investment having to be pumped into Brize. I do acknowledge however that the specialised support required for Nimrod is far great than that for the AT guys.

Regards,
M2

[Charlie Luncher]

M2 once again you have me misunderstood offense was intended
:E

If it is the old and fossilised DH agree if it is the young DH well he was sort of ok when on Maritime but last time I met him he had gone all E3 :8 .

M2 have you had a hand in the MRA4 thread being suppressed and pushed off the page:confused:

Finally were you chopped/streamed off maritime:E

Yes I am still weak and after a few bottle of cheapo vino it is funny to me:ok:

Charlie sends

[SandyPit]

Hi All

Just to let you know that the whole topic of this thread was indeed a wind-up. Can I thank you all for participating, and especially MM, who gave our crew a much needed laugh while we're stuck here in the sand!

Sby for next week.

[jack-oh]

I have been reading this thread with interest but find it impossible to follow some people’s logic.
I understand most people serving in England can't see much further than their own cushy lifes' but the rationale for closing Lossie and Kinloss escapes me.
The Airspace on the East coast of England is becoming more and more cramped, the opening of Finingley as a civil airport the expansion of Leeds Bradford, Teeside and Newcastle, new runways at Stanstead and the ever increasing traffic levels at Luton will soon drive Civil ATC to yet again increase the amount of CAS. The RAF wont be able to fight it as the decision for expansion has already been made in the UK Aviation White paper; the military white paper however proposes cuts in the amount of service aircraft.
That only leaves the remoter stations with any hope of safeguarding the airspace around them for military operations.
At a recent DART brief (sorry I don’t know what it stands for) these factors were blatantly obvious, equally the recent court case where the owners of an ancestral home won a vast settlement from the MOD because of noise pollution, has also sharpened the mind.
Furthermore, access to ideal training areas without the need to AAR before entry is again a factor.
All these combined; leave Lossie and Kinloss as well as Valley and Culdrose ideally situated. Yes, they are along way from RAF Lincolnshire or London but that is exactly their appeal.
The GR4 is a ground attack ac by definition, so why then when Lossie is so close to Tain range, Garvie island and the HRA as well as the Grampian mountains is it considered at risk of closure. Surely, when all is considered Marham is in a far more fragile position. Granted it’s in England but unless we intend to bomb the **** out of Holland, I mean act as a force for good, it’s about as much use as tits on a fish.
At said DART brief, some revelations came out, namely: The closure of Lyneham (already announced) Then, Coltishaw, Leeming, and possibly Cottesmore and Whitering. The re-sitting of GR9 to Yeovilton and St Mawgan and the possible re-opening of Macrahanish.
These all follow a common theme, downsizing in the East where it is busy and moving to remoter locations where it is not.
This may piss the people that are already serving off, but the decisions made now are based on expected requirements in 2020 not because you have had it nice and cushy along the A1 for years.

[insty66]

j-o

You weren't reading to close else you'd have spotted SandyPits last post.;)
As for your deductions well, The only reason, I believe, you see all the signs pointing to the east closing down is your present location, quite close to somewhere I believe.
Just to be picky it's Coltishall and Wittering and Marham is no where near the A1 but it is closer than Lossie is to it
:ok:

[MAD Boom]

Nice wind up Sandy!!

Glad to see all the old Kinloss/Waddo banter back on the forum.
You boys should take up fishing, people rise to your bait so well, althogh where you are there's not a lot of water!!
As for some of you schmucks who took the bait, I think that it's Kinloss 1, Waddo 0!!
Take care of your sorry ass Sandy, don't hurry back 'cos it's pants back here- 1330hrs SAR handover- nice one CXX!!
See you all soon

118-118- got your number!!

ps, just thought you should know that the new Ops portakabin is built, just waiting on Douggie T's office to be finished!!

[elderforest]

SandyPit,

All your wishes are to come true . . .

Kinloss is taking the Lossie Tornado's when they bolthole due to runway work . .

plus Waddington is also due for runway resurfacing and the E-3's have got to go somewhere . .

I like a happy ending.

Elderforest.

[circle kay]

But the E3D couldn’t operate from ISK. We just haven’t got all the correct hues of highlighters to mark the MSS briefs so that the spoon feed FC master race don’t pick up the wrong one:rolleyes:

[SandyPit]

1330 SAR handover!! You've gotta be pi$$ed!!

Oh well, I never liked my weekends anyway, now a weekend SAR means a weekend SAR!!

[DuaneDibley]

Sandy........ congrats on a fair-ish wind up (by my calculation, you've more than half of your current sandpit time to go......) hopefully by the time you're nearer to going home, you'll be fishing with a more subtle lure and thus reaping a less predictable banter harvest.

Straight Flush, - reference the "much needed task" that the boys are currently fulfilling, please (PLEASE!) tell me that they're doing something that utilizes a capability unique to the platform and not available from other, lower value, assets. - Otherwise it would all be a bit pointless wouldn't it?

Remember, if it looks like a fish, and smells like a fish........

[MAD Boom]

They are Dibley, we could tell you about it, but we'd have to kill you. :p

[DuaneDibley]

Unless, of course, I already know and think you're talking B*ll*cks

[SandyPit]

"by my calculation, you've more than half of your current sandpit time to go....."

Mmmm, what calculations would they be! You don't think I've blown my cover do you. Never mind, ask around. My whole crew knows my handle. In fact I need to ask them for ideas for next weeks topic!

You ain't seen me... right!!