Moving up to a Lear

[Flyboy-F33]

Some general info needed here...

A group of us are thinking of forming a syndicate around a Lear 24. We currently operate a mixture of complex piston types including an Aerostar, Assuming we all hold FAA CPL/IR, what if any, additional ratings are required?

Next question...where can I find details on maintenance and inspection requirements for this type?

Thanks in anticipation......

[bluesafrica]

Quite a jump for your syndicate... in what registry you will keep the Lear?
I would think that your best bet is to contact Manchester for technical info.
You need at least type rating to fly in FAA registry. How about noise restrictions in UK?
Wouldn´t a Citation 500 do? Much cheaper to operate, I quess and without the noise problem.
Blues

That maintenance and technical info you can find from

www.northernexec.com at Manchester

www.lbas.de at Berlin

www.aero-dienst.de at Nurnberg


Good luck with a Lear , you gonna need it!

Blues
:ok:

[Flyboy-F33]

Quite a move...sure...but hey..you only live once!
Thanks for the links....whats the story on noise restrictions?

We would keep it on the N register.

[Lear_doctor]

Good advice from Blues.

If you do contact Manchester for advice, you will end up talking to me anyway! So here is what I'm going to say:-

No. - The L24 is not the aircraft for Europe.

Here are some reasons why

RVSM is a problem. Very few (if any) L24 aircraft have been modified to fly in RVSM airspace. Bombardier do not have an approved modification for the conversion, the work is being done by a private company in the USA. That means a height restriction which will cost you dearly in fuel.

You may well encounter a noise problem because of the engines fitted.

If you have to modify the aircraft for EGPWS and PRNAV etc. you will find difficulty as Bombardier are not really supporting the aircraft anymore, also interfacing with the older avionics fitted will be difficult.

I don't believe there are any approved organisations to maintain the aircraft. NEA do not have L24 on their JAR-145 approval. So maintenance will have to be 'invented' I.e a new company approved, or carried out in Europe. Either option will not be cheap.

There are more reasons, but the above should be enough!

As I said, good advice from Blue. Look towards a Citation 500. But make sure you get some GOOD engineering help in the purchase stage. A good aircraft doing well in the USA, may not be all that is required to operate successfully in the UK. Think about the points above, other than the engine noise they apply equally to the Cessna range.

Regards


The Doc

[Chilli Monster]

Flyboy - check your PM's

[Daifly]

Oh and Flyboy - make the most of Lear_doctor's advice. He usually charges us £80 an hour for it ;)

[737drvr]

So much for knowledgeable advice, the lear 24 is supported by Aerodienst without any problems. Bombardier still supports the documentation, and if the aircraft is equiped with Hushkits then there is no problem operating in Europe. Yes RVSM is a problem but EGPWS is not if you operate it private.

[Flyboy-F33]

Thanks for the info guys....This needs more research.!

[Lear_doctor]

If you read my post carefully 737 I think you will find it is accurate.

1. Aerodienst is not in the UK, I said that a UK company would have be approved OR maintenance would have to be done in Europe. This was in response to the 1st post which was written by a UK based author.

2. I said you MAY have engine noise problems

3. I also said IF you have to modify the aircraft for EGPWS, PRNAV etc. you may have a problem

Finally the lack of support was in the modification part of my reply. Bombardier will not be spending time or effort on mods for this aircraft, so work will have to be done by private companies. This adds to the complexity and cost of the work, as you don't have the backing of the manufacturer.

Without specific information on the actual aircraft, you can only give general advice. I standby everything written.


The Doc

[bluesafrica]

The fact is that old Lear 24 will be "almost" impossible to operate in Europe. RVSM will cause a major performance cut. Lear is not made to be flown below 29K. Don´t know how many of 24's have been hushkitted, guess not too many. Not worth to do in US where they can still fly until DRVSM will finally stop them.

Citation, even without RVSM can produce some kind of "jet" performance and for the fraction of the price per hour...
There is a super buys nowadays on Westwind 1 an 2´s , a long range aircraft for peanuts....
Blues:ok:

[LearjetGA]

There is at least one operating in Europe.

It is D-Cmmm

It is hushkitted. I don't know anything else about the plane.

Having flown Lear 20 series extensively it is my opinion that it is going to be a nightmare to operate in Europe.

Good Luck

[zombieaa]

well, I must say that I am a bit suprised about the optimism that I come across sometimes, it is nice to be optimistic, but realism is well placed in conjuntion. I have to ask, do you have any sort of idea about what kind of performance you will get out of a Lear-24????? I doubt it-but if you think that you guys can move on to that sort of equipment from piston twins and turboprops, (assuming that you will not ask somebody with experience on the Lears to help you out in the beginning) and not screw up (not nessicarily crash) you are in for a big surprise. This would be the biggest concern for me in addition to all the other problems posted previously.

As a guideline-I have personally climed to FL410 in less then 9 min in a Lear-24------Light and cold----but hard to beat........This airplane requires a lot of attention without any fancy systems that can be found in new airplanes............

Follow the advice on this forum----buy C500----easy to handle as a first Jet and a lot cheaper to operate.........regards

[con-pilot]

Another great old (last one built in 1981) biz-jet is the Sabre 65.

It can be RVSM modified and is a stage 3 aircraft. It has a solid 2,100 nm range (5 1/2 hours at .74 mach. with a one hour fuel reserve). High speed cruise for shorter trips of .80 mach. Easy to fly. You can get a really good one for under $2,000,000.00 USD.

However, a bit of a dog at max gross in the summer. Will not get above FL 37.0 at max gross weight when its hot. Takes about 3 hours to get light enough to get to FL 41.0.

But for the money its a hell of an airplane.

I know of 4 Sabre 65s that go to Europe from the US fairly often.

(Not mine)

[The Jetlag Kid]

Lears are GREAT airplanes (I've got 3,000 hours in type), but before you get your heart set on one you really need to take a good hard look at insurance and training costs. (In order to be safe, you're going to need to attend some sort of simulator-based training basis on at least an annual basis. The insurance carrier may require that you and your friends attend refresher training semi-annually.) If those costs aren't "impressive" enough for you then check out the costs to get one RVSM certified. While you're at it, factor in the current and upcoming restrictions imposed by the noise levels. If you're still game, price out the fuel costs and finally don't forget that even though you can buy one comparatively inexpensively you're still going to maintain an OLD turbojet. (Expensive takes on a whole new meaning when you talk jet maintenance!) Some one mentioned a Citation good choice without nearly as many drawbacks.

Just my opinion.

The Jetlag Kid

[Sonic Zepplin]

:ooh:

Open your eyes.

This group knows what they say.

I have flown several 20 series Lears as well as 35's, 55's, and the 60's.

Of all the Learjets, the 20 series is the most difficult of them all to handle. Definately not for the unexperienced flight crew. It would be wise, if your owners are set on this type, to fly with an experienced flight crew for a couple hundred hours minimum.

It is a very unforgiving airplane, and must be watched constantly. High Ref speeds and a handful on a missed approach. 3 hour airplane, 300 pounds burn on taxi to departure. But....

One of the best peforming Lears to date. A real kick in the pants to fly.

The RVSM is a real issue, and should not be overlooked in your purchase.
It is unlikely that this plane will have any future value outside of a boat anchore within a year if Learjet or an outside group dosen't put forward the engineering to get the 30 year old hulls RVSM'd for $150,000 or less, (which is highly unlikely).

If your looking for a Learjet look at a 30 series (31 or 35). RVSM approved due to air data computers and auto pilot. The 60's are a bargin in the market at the moment and a real pleasure to fly as well as the 55's.

Good Luck

[TheDrop]

Old aircraft means a lot of new equipment as time goes by. Some of it byr JAROPS, but get this, by 31 march 2005, all turbine aircraft, regardless of country of registration, private/commercial or whatever, MUST have mode S transponders in order to fly in Europe. Try and ask about the price of one of those ...

[Hawker-rider]

WE operate some lear 20 series airplanes.

Maintenance is not very expensive, offcourse if you take on a renomated company to do it for you it will cost you. A lot cheaper and easier to hire a US mechanic that worked on them and keep them on the payroll

European ops won't be easy, as you really need to get to the FL400's as fast as possible, and the plane wouldn't like delays too much...then again, I just flew Los Angeles to New York with just one fuelstop, so the range is pretty decent.

cheap planes>> pick one up for around $200.000,- and that makes you ready to fly!! You can buy a bunch of fuel for 2 million bucks
RVSM will be an issue, but expect something to come up for it, there are quite a few 20-series out there and there's no way they will just ALL go out of business. I just don't see this happen.

As far as difficulty flying the plane, yes it's high performance and it will bite you in the behind faster than anything, but it ain't rocketscience either. We fly them with low time pilots, I had 1200TT when I became a captain and my co-pilot had 0 jettime and just got his commercial license.

Insurance for us is dirt cheap, so I have no idea why everybody else is so negative. The only thing why we don't really make a lot of money is that the plane is small...a lear25 goes a little better in the marketing, and our maintenance scheduling is So bad that our planes are down almost 50% of the time because our mechanics don't walk very fast........

[acronim freeks]

All this waffle about RVSM MNP CRM Stage 3 EGPWS JAR OPS and the FAA, you have all gone mad and lost sight of the golden rule.

if it flys, floats or f@@ks then rent it!

ITS CHEAPER



:)