Ir Training In Florida - A Warning!

[quackers]

Before spending your hard-earned money (or parents/relations, banks!) I would like to offer a cautionary tale based on my experience. Having completed the CPL/ME at an 'Approved' JAA school in Florida, plus 30 hours IR 'training', I came back to the UK to complete said IR - Oh, what a shock!! A lot of the things I had been taught over there were badly taught whilst other things hadn't been taught at all! This resulted in my spending a fortune in extra hours to put matters right. Although I now have an IR, I was told by my examiner that certain aspects of my instrument flying were weak and, in his experienced opinion, this was mainly down to poor initial training. The extra training I had to do negated any savings (plus more) I had made by going to America.
Those early hours of IR training should not be underestimated - don't base your choice of school on cost alone. It is far more important that you are taught properly, by a suitably JAA Licensed
instructor. Before going to the USA find out who your instructor is going to be and make sure that he/she holds a proper JAA IR Instructors Licence NOT an FAA one, with authority to teach to JAA standard (like my instructor!). In addition, has he/she ever taught IR in the UK - this is very important as there are some big differences between us (airspace restrictions, radio procedures, types of approaches etc). Don't be fobbed off with a less-qualified instructor once over there (as often happens).
In hindsight (what a wonderful thing!!) I wish I had done all of my IR training in the UK, where the regulation of instructors is more tightly policed and where, after all, I will be working. I have since spoken to a CAA official and was told that they cannot afford to send staff around the world checking out these 'approved' schools. The CAA receive a vast amount of money from us future pilots so, surely, they owe us a duty of care!

Its too late for me to recoup any of the money I have spent but I would urge all wannabees to think very carefully before committing themselves. If you do decide on sunny Florida - check them out very, very carefully. After all, after buying a house, this is probably the most expensive thing you will ever buy!!

I am not going to name the school concerned for obvious reasons, but my advice applies to whichever school you are considering outside of the UK. Best of luck to you all!

[Megaton]

Give us a clue..where did you do your flying on your return to the UK?

[quackers]

Sunny Bournemouth!

[BillieBob]

Good Grief! An instructor who has never flown in JAA airspace and has never gained a JAA FI rating is ill-equipped to instruct for a JAA Instrument Rating. Well, there's a surprise!!

'quakers' is quite right - Before committing your hard-earned euros/pounds/dollars to a heavily marketed course outside the JAA, on the spurious promise of saving money, ask what experience the instructor/CFI/Head of Training concerned actually has of operation in JAA airspace.

[Keygrip]

BB has taken it a step further by suggesting that you check out the instructors EXPERIENCE in European airspace and operations.

There are FAA instructors who have completed the full JAA conversion and, as such, hold full JAA licences and ratings - but they still have ZERO EXPERIENCE at the game they are trying to play.

Whilst it is arguably acceptable for PPL training - it is most certainly NOT acceptable for CPL and/or JAA I/R training and testing......it's a matter of finance - paying the big bucks for a professional licence should buy you an EXPERIENCED instructor.

There is (or at least should be) a food chain of instructors - and the professional licences need somebody from the middle to top of it.

[skyman68]

mmmh, I have 600h -800h IFR and FAA IFR and CFI, and FAA ATP. I do not see really u point. 40hours in the US is a minimum, it doesnt mean you are able to fly alone in Full IFR when the weather is really nasty.40 or 50 hours is a minimum to fly as a SIC with an experienced captain (like me) or on a very simple plane (172 or else).many guys have crashed in IMC after gaining their IR (FAA or JAA) .I have taught guys from europe coming with IFR in the USA.I had to check out these guys. Gosh, their level and experience was so bad that I have had to give at least 20hours instrument under hood or in REAL nasty weather...

to fly in real IMC is not for girls!

[quackers]

The fact is, you will get good and bad instructors in the UK and in the States. Students who go to the States to a JAA approved school go there believing that they are being taught by someone who is experienced and familiar with the differences and who has actually flown in the UK airspace themselves. If you have a bad instructor on home territory you can always pack your bags and go to another school - if you've done your research and flown across the pond its not quite so easy. As a student, aside from checking a school out via Pprune and speaking to fellow pilots, you are really at their mercy. We all know that there are differences between flying in both countries, but as a student you have to place a certain amount of trust in your instructor. If you are unfortunate enough to get a instructor who isn't very good at his job AND has never flown in UK airspace, what chance do you really stand. As I have previously said, these initial hours are very, very important. I hope that makes my point clearer.

[mad_jock]

I agree totally with the opinions given in this thread.

The comment made by skyman I also agree with. Low hours IFR pilots are dangerous to themselves which is why in the JAA system before getting let loose with punters in the back you need to have aleast 100 IFR time under you belt single pilot or be part of a multicrew team.

There are some pretty major differences between the IFR the FAA way and IFR the JAA way. I know its the same ICAO standard but its not really. Also the the whole airspace structure and ACT procedures are different as well. And its not uncommon for people to fail their IR after flying it totally within limits because of slack RT, missing read backs, forgetting to start your stop watch etc.

And if its worth anything I too have had both UK and US low hours IFR's to check out. And after 1 hour or 2 it was their choice to remain VFR for the hire period. I am sure most of us can remember our first revalidation after a year off flying IFR properly, personally I was shocked how ****e I really was.

I no way am I saying FAA IR is better or worse than a JAR IR. Its just different and wannabies have to realise that they are wanting a JAR IR NOT a FAA one. So there is only one way forward for proper instruction for a JAR IR. Thats a JAR instructor who is experenced in flying in the airspace you will be tested in also flying in the airspace you will be tested in.
Which also means that there is no point being trained by say a german instructor in germany then sitting a UK test with a British examiner.

I am a 1000hour instructing PPL instructor who intially trained in the US. I didn't realise the difference in training until i did my JAR instructors course. It was a real eye opener. It dosn't matter so much with PPL's who are going to remain PPL's but anyone even thinking about commercial needs to get the JAR habits from the word go. Not as in my case have to retrain yourself after 150 hours so get yourself ready for a UK flight examiner.

MJ

[African Drunk]

As an IR instructor in the UK I can have the resident CAA examiner sit in on any brief or flight I do. " JAA approved schools" in the US are inspected once in a blue moon and only with months of notice, not an ideal situation.

[VFE]

Hi folks,

As someone about to embark on the exact route of training described by Quackers for my IR, any discoveries I make shall be reported here for the benefit of all. I am currently touring with the idea of starting a similar style thread which Flying For Fun produced so well for his CPL training so stay tuned.....

Obviously the name of the school Quackers is refering to is of paramount importance and I shall be contacting him/her via the PPRuNe private messaging system. The kind of practice described above is very worrying so rest assured I shall be taking every measure available to make sure a similar experience is not encountered by myself!

Regards,

VFE.

[englishal]

This is the problem of trying to do a JAA IR in the USA. It's not going to happen, the systems are different and you must convert in the UK..........

I believe that JAA "Approved" schools should not be allowed to teach the JAA IR in the USA, and in actual fact it is a bit of a con. The reason being that Wannabe's believe they are getting JAA training, paying inflated FAA prices for what is essentially FAA Instrument training. Ok, instrument training is instrument training to some extent, but as mentioned procedures and tolerances are different between the two regions.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to go to the US, get an FAA IR with a view to conversion IF the student knows this beforehand, and trains accordingly. I went to the US to specifically do an FAA IR, I knew the (european) guy who was training me, and I knew that as well as holding an FAA ATP FI, he had also been through the conversion process and holds JAA ATPL FI. (I had flown with him in the UK when he was having a "year off" from living and working in the US). When we trained for the IR, we trained to JAA standards and tolerances, as well as loads of NDB work, which is not so common in the US. Combined with the US GPS approach procedures etc, I think that the training I got was better than JAA only training, and better than FAA only training......The school is not JAA approved, and to be honest didn't need to be. The conversion process is exactly the same for me, or for anyone else attempting to do a JAA IR in the USA...the difference being that I already hold the FAA IR as well.

Cheers
EA

[B2N2]

I think you hit the nail on the head here...
It's annoying to always read about the "sub-standard" training in the US. It's not it's just a different beast.
The reason why you would do a rating in the US is to save you money overall even with the conversion you need to do back in the UK.
It can always happen (bad luck?) that your first instructor is cr@p
and you end up spending more on the conversion than your savings. Do not blame it on the system though.
The emphasis is a little different in the US, NDB's are being phased out and replaced by either VOR or GPS approaches.
I failed to understand why in Europe they insist on the most inaccurate and the most dangerous non precision approach for your training.
Like you'll really fly an NDB approach with a plane load of people...
Why do people travel halfway around the world and expect things to be exactly what they are at home ?
Because it has the Almighty JAA stamp...NOT
:rolleyes:

[quackers]

B2N2,

We're not talking here about doing an FAA IR followed by a conversion back in the UK (as previously said, that would give us the best of both worlds), we're talking about students going to Florida believing they are going to receive training for a JAA licence by a suitably qualified JAA IR Instructor who knows from first-hand experience what the JAA requirements are. If I had been told beforehand that my training was not going to be of a high enough standard I would not have chosen that route, as indeed a lot of other students, also feel. I am certainly NOT suggesting that the FAA training is sub-standard - it is merely geared towards a different objective.

[VFE]

Of course...... we should also point out that no JAA Approved School is allowed to teach the JAA Instrument Rating without the instructors having been through a JAA Instructor Instrument course shouldn't we Quackers?

Did you not hear your instructors spurs jangling as he climbed into the aircraft or were the engines already running perchance? ;)

VFE.

[BillieBob]

Like you'll really fly an NDB approach with a plane load of people... It is precisely this misunderstanding that, in part, causes the problems. There are many places on Europe, served by scheduled aircraft, that do not have anything other than an NDB (and perhaps, if you're lucky, a DME) for IFR approaches and so the pilot doesn't have a choice. The reason that the JAA IR includes the "the most inaccurate and the most dangerous non precision approach" is because pilots do have to fly it with an aircraft full of passengers, maybe followed by a circle to land!

However, the point is well made - there is nothing whatever wrong or inferior about FAA training, it is at least as good as EU training but designed to serve a different need. One of the things one might reasonably expect an instructor to do is to pass on his (or her) experience to the student. If the instructor does not have any relevant experience, the student is at an immediate disadvantage.

First time pass rates are a notoriously crude and, generally, misleading measure of a school's quality and I would not normally advise placing any reliance on them. But, when one hears of an otherwise well-regarded, US-based JAA IR course provider who has not yet managed to produce a student who can achieve a first-time pass, one has to wonder. Perhaps, in this case, this is a question worth asking before parting with any money.

[African Drunk]

" JAA Approved School is allowed to teach the JAA Instrument Rating without the instructors having been through a JAA Instructor Instrument course. "

VFE this is not the case at all, non JAA instructors are often allowed to teach JAA with no JAA qualifications. An example is SA where south african instructors were teaching JAA multi engine with 5 hours multi time. If taught in the UK the instructor must have 30 hours PIC multi, of which 10 hours shall be in the preceeding 12 months. Then a 5 hour course and then a flight test plus other requirements. The experience gap for instrument instructors between JAA and FAA is even greater and yet they can still instruct JAA.

[Keygrip]

B2N2 - it's not very long ago that I heard an Airtours/MyTravel DC10 being told to do an NDB approach to runway 27R at Sanford (Orlando).

Granted, they do now have an ILS there - but NDB's are still around. Indeed, what approaches does your local airfield have for a non-IFR GPS equipped aircraft if the VOR goes off air?

[englishal]

The experience gap for instrument instructors between JAA and FAA is even greater and yet they can still instruct JAA.
The IR instructor I used in the US, had an FAA ATP 1500 hrs TT, 500 ME, and well over 500 instrument. He was 28, and had been an instructor for a little over two years (incidentally, he also converted to JAA CPL/IR first time, with 7.5 hrs in an aircraft in the UK).

If you're a ME instrument instructor in the US you are proabably going to have far more experience of instrument flight than your JAA counterpart. Virtually every instructor I've met in the UK has let their IR's lapse? Why? Becasue they don't use them, and if you don't use them then surely your experience levels drop drastically. I've met UK IRIs who do far less IR training than an FAA CFII.....ther eis far less demand for it here.

To get an FAA ME commercial, you must have 10 hrs PIC in multis. To get the MEI, I forget what it is but its unlikely to be less than a further 15hrs in real terms, so now you're looking at a minimum of 25hrs PIC.

I've got over 50 hrs ME time, 40 of which is PIC, and this was all gained in the US....as its affordable there. The JAA PPL ME test is a joke really, no Vmc demo to the examiner, no shut down on the test, so you can't really compare the FAA and JAA is such simplistic terms as you have.

EA;)

[Send Clowns]

The IR instructor I used in the US, had an FAA ATP 1500 hrs TT, 500 ME, and well over 500 instrument. He was 28 ...

I've met UK IRIs who do far less IR training than an FAA CFIII think you'll find that most of the main UK commercial schools are staffed by pilots who have flown in commercial aviation, and therefore have considerable practical time under IFR and well over 1500 hours. They often work quite hard now, and keep very current (there may be less demand, but there is also less supply). Some of ours are currently in flying jobs with small operators, flying turbo-props or jets and teaching in their spare time (my MEP renwewal was with one, who certainly had not let his IR lapse!). We have simulator instructors with over 30 years of experience (50 years in one case) of instructing! Of the 4 commercial schools in Bournemouth I know that the IR instructors in 3 have a lot of flying experience behind them (not sure about the fourth, as I know less about it).

I must admit my main IR instructor had less experience than this when I went through the course in 2001 with a company that no longer exists, however he was an excellent instructor and I passed first time on less than minimum hours so that is a forgiveable exception!

[englishal]

flying turbo-props or jets
Ah, I want a job with FRA :D

ok, good points, I was making the point that not all FAA CFII's are inexperienced.

Cyer:D

[Send Clowns]

Me too :D Need a few more hours yet, but when I have 1000 I will be knocking on their door daily ...

I agree - I know a few excellent instructors in the States.

:) ;)

[dogbeer]

There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about the differences between JAA and FAA IFR-training but what about South African IFR-training versus JAA?
Has anyone in here done your initial IFR-training in SA and converted to JAA? What was your experiences? I'm very interested to know since I'm currently looking at a few SA flight schools to do the rest of my training.

[African Drunk]

SA training quite good but the country is lacking in nav aids and approaches particually jo'burg area where all seems to be done out of lanseria.

[EL SID]

The Jo'burg area is indeed quite lacking in suitable Navaids for IR training and the ILS at Lanseria is under heavy demand for training purposes as the one at Jo’burg International is not available for training and the one at Waterkloof is for the military only, the next closest is Durban!
However in the Eastern Cape where several large schools are situated there are:
Port Elizabeth: ILS, VOR, NDB, PAR & SRA approach facilities.
East London: ILS, VOR, NDB & SRA
There is generally low demand on these facilities as the frequency of scheduled flights is not high.

[MVE]

Interesting thread!
I have just returned from the same school that quackers seems to be complaining about.

I did 30 hours training on the Duchess in the states for $265 an hour, so we are looking at 30 x 135 = 4050 pounds.
I then returned to the UK and took a further 27 hours to reach the standard. The UK section cost me just over 5000 pounds. This was 10 hours sim and 17 in the aircraft.
So the total was just over 9000 pounds. A very reasonable price for 47 hours twin and 10 FNPT2.

All that said I found on returning to the UK that the lack of any usefull NDB training was a real hindrance and caused me at least 3 hours of extra training, also the difference in procedures and checks used by the different schools (despite the two schools having a training agreement!) meant at least 2 hours extra training to unlearn one set of procedures and learn another. The other 2 extra hours I can only imagine was due to my arse weight on switch or my need to breath and fly at the same time slowing me down!

I am happy with the decision I made but only for financial reasons. Some people will cope better with the differences than others and some people have the cash not to worry about where to train in the first place!

I have thankfully now finished my training and with some training in the SA and some in Florida and the rest in the UK I am happy with the end result -

A frozen ATPL with 295 hours total including 82 hours complex single and 66 hours Multi all for less than 30 grand with some great memories(and some ****ty ones)

Would I do the same again and use the same schools? Yes I would!

If you would like a list of the schools I used send me a PM.

[red7alpha]

MVE, I've PM'd you.