Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job [Archive]

paco

1st Dec 2000, 16:37

If you want to fly helicopters, go do it an don't listen to anyone else - same goes if you want to be a photographer, or a dustman! Only you know what's best for you.

However, you need to be aware that professional helicoptering is a whole different ball game, in that the pay you get just about covers you for the paperwork and BS, and the poling is the icing on the cake. There's a lot to be gained from the job, and having seen both sides of the coin, the British licence is more academic, but the Canadian is more practical, aside from needing about 600 hours less to qualify. I am certainly a way better pilot having done a couple of seasons in Canada.

Wherever you go, you need about 1000 hours to be employable, or have some sort of specialisation, so if you can only afford about 300, make sure you have a mountain course, an IR or get the guys to give you a thorough grounding in longlining (kinda fun), assuming that your instructors have actually done the job - when I finally got around to doing my Canadian commercial, only one of the instructors had any real commercial experience, and I was teaching him a few things about going into clearings!

I did an article in Pilot about flying in Canada and doing the commercial ride - I believe it was about 9 months ago. If you haven't got any back copies I may be able to dig up the text.

Oh yes, ignore any schools who say they will employ you after your course. At least, only regard it as a minor factor in your decision.

Hope that helps!

Phil

Thomas coupling

3rd Dec 2000, 05:06

'H', you're a database consultant. presumably it pays for your lessons but doesn't give you much fun, eh?
I'm assuming you want to end up in the UK and to that end, I can assure you, anything commercial (jobs) requires an ATPL(H)if that job is a good one. That will cost you around £50,000 ish! Still interested? Anything less than ATPL may get you into a lower profile slot with their inherent insecurities (not all, but most).
If you want to fly helo's for fun, stick with it and do it because it's different. If you want to support a decent (financial) lifestyle...go FW.
http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/AnimatedGif/black_helicopter.gif
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TC

[This message has been edited by Thomas coupling (edited 03 December 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Thomas coupling (edited 03 December 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Thomas coupling (edited 03 December 2000).]

Go-Around

12th Dec 2000, 00:16

Hi,
According to my peers I must have become bored with living, because I have decided to change my intended career path from shiny big jets to helicopters. The only problem is, I'm 20 with 43hrs(A).
I'm lucky enough to have financial backing to do whatever I choose but I obviously have a few questions which I hope someone might shed some light on.
Where's the best place to train, USA or UK? Anyone had an expereince of HAI?
What is the helicopter job market like? What kind of jobs could I expect with a fresh JAA-CPL etc?
Does anyone offer any kind of sponsorship, or do any school have good links with employers?
I have already got an RAF Scholarship and have got through to the last stage of BA selection.
Many thanks in advance,
GA

[This message has been edited by Go-Around (edited 11 December 2000).]

egg beater

12th Dec 2000, 04:36

Hmmmm. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you are making the wrong move. I'm on the rotary side, and I am considering the opposite move.
There is definitely a bigger difference in the top and bottom salaries on the fixed-wing side, than on the rotary side.
Put another way: Considering the cost of gaining a professional rotary qualification, the financial reward is not there !.

Scattercat

12th Dec 2000, 10:27

Eggbeater,
What about job satisfaction ?? There's more to a job than just salaries. I've been in helo's for 16yrs now & it's the best job in the world (my humble opinion of course)& the money's not that bad either. I'd say go for it "Go-Around"! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

HOGE

12th Dec 2000, 14:04

Go-around, the one question you didn't ask is, why are so many helicopter pilots going fixed wing?

Robbo Jock

12th Dec 2000, 22:09

I got my CPL(H) about 18 months ago and have hardly left the ground since. Now seems not to be a good time to get into rotary wing flying.
If you've got the chance of going into the RAF, it might be worth taking it - ask on the military thread what the chances are of streaming into rotary and what the life's like. If you're through to BA's final stages, it would certainly be worth having a go at that and using your financial backing to get a PPL(H) - you can fly for a (good) living and blat around in helicopters for fun. Best of both worlds.

Scattercat - I've no doubt that with 16 years under your belt you've got the experience, training and hours to move easily from job to job, so that you can find one you love and pays. As a tyro at the moment it's nigh-on impossible.

RW-1

18th Dec 2000, 00:39

HOGE,

I think because by the time you make it good in heli's you're no longer single, etc. and $$$ becomes a factor. Family, etc.

Being single and not caring about the $$$, heli's will always be what I want :)

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Marc

Go-Around

20th Dec 2000, 01:58

So disregarding the fact i will work all hours God sends, be away from home 4 ever and day and not earn that much, it doesn't sound that bad!!!<g>
OK I don't mean to annoy anyone just provoke some thought.
Do some of you guys fly just for the money? I'm sure most people can program a FMC and fly that way. Isn't helicopter flying a challenge, especially in weather you rig pilots get? Does no-one like a challenge any more? Is it not about as hands on as you can get?
I am looking for an aviation challenge (just getting my foot in the door is the hardest) and i can think of nothing better than helicopters. Maybe some people should take a step back and think about why they got into flying in the first place.
(Give me 5 years and I'll be moaning with the best of them!)
So to my original point, if I self sponsor myself to a JAA CPL(H) will Bristow et al want me, it sounds like they could be a bit short soon.
Cheers
GA

RW-1

20th Dec 2000, 02:24

G-A,

>>So disregarding the fact i will work all hours God sends, be away from home 4 ever and day and not earn that much, it doesn't sound that bad!!!<<

Could always be worse, someone could be shooting at you :)

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Marc

HOGE

20th Dec 2000, 03:17

I actually like my job, and I've always said I wouldn't be in it for the money.(Well that was lucky!). It can be a great job, it can also be a pain of a job sometimes. My concern is how much longer it will continue to be a job. 10 years more on the North Sea, 15 maybe, then what?? Where's the reinvestment?

SPS

21st Dec 2000, 15:16

Thought of training in NZ?

More Helis per capita than any other country,
many reasons to use them and many things done with them.

No "little pilot" CPL licences either (I do NOT mean UK!)

Probably the slingloading mecca of the world.

With the US$ and pound exchange rate as it is with the kiwi $ our training is for almost nothing.

Check my site, and my employer's, which you can get through my profile.

Anyway, if you want to do the big wings then
here's how to check it out.

(1) Find someone who has a house with bay window.

(2) Get comfy chair and someone to bring you a coffee now and then.

(3) Sit in window all day, dawn til dusk, watch it become light and then watch it become dark.

(4)After you have done 12 hrs of that, ask yourself again what it is you want.

OK?

All the best whatever you do!

Robbo Jock

21st Dec 2000, 16:13

I like your analogy!

SPS

22nd Dec 2000, 19:11

Thanks.....

Which one?

"Little pilot" or "Bay window??!!

SPS

22nd Dec 2000, 19:17

And by the way -

HAI is an excellent company by all accounts.

When last in UK I asked to to my instructor renewal with George Bedford (Bristow, and a
very good instructor examiner) and I found he'd shipped out to be Cheif Pilot at HAI.

The company must have got better for that.

The Nr Fairy

23rd Dec 2000, 21:05

SPS :

That happened when Bristows stopped doing their own training at Redhill. HAI now do, as far as I'm aware, all the CAA suff in Florida, if they've moved by now.

I'm tempted to go there when I've got the hours to do the modular course - it'll save me some money !!

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I got bored with "WhoNeedsRunways"

UNLOB

25th Dec 2000, 10:52

Go-around.

I am one of the many pilots leaving the North Sea for the fixed-wing world.

But I think you are doing the right thing. Firstly, if you do get a CPL(A) your possibilities of getting that first job are close to zero. But I think if you hold a
CPL(H) in the next couple of years your chances are quite good. But as always, this depends on the oil price.

I have enjoyed my time in the North Sea, and I don't think you will find a finer bunch of people to work with (excluding management). It has been a good place to enhance my flying experience and to fly in one of the most taxing jobs in aviation.

Also at your age, you can still move over to fixed-wing if your circumstances change.

GO FOR IT!!!!!!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY AND SAFE NEW YEAR!!!!

[This message has been edited by UNLOB (edited 25 December 2000).]

sarboy

25th Dec 2000, 22:21

If you're into helos in your low 20s, perhaps you can get some fun under your belt before moving onto something a bit more stable and luvrative. Green military helicopters certainly get to play in some interesting places, but if you're talking to a recruiter about RAF helo careers, don't forget SAR. Heavy weather, pretty stable and I've got a pretty good job satisfaction score, I'd say. A lot of military folk wouldn't touch the role with a barge-pole either, so volunteers are always welcome. Of course, it's a specialization with civilian opportunities too - home and abroad. Good luck.

A109

29th Dec 2000, 04:14

Try Heliswiss in Berne Switzerland for real mountain flying and a serious course.

CTD

16th Mar 2001, 22:14

Vlift...excellent addition. I was trying to use the water analogy in my post, but couldn't figure out a way to say it without sounding stupid. You nailed it. Bravo.

Lee Harris

26th Mar 2001, 04:03

As somebody who itends to start pilot training in the near future could you please tell me where you did your training, how did your career progress and where would you do your training if you were to do it now. Any other advice is appreciated.

Cheers

Lee

[This message has been edited by Lee Harris (edited 26 March 2001).]

Semi Rigid

26th Mar 2001, 05:42

I did my training in my hometown in NZ. Good location, mountains 10 mins flight away, uncluttered airspace with CTA's within 1hr to 2hrs in most headings. Did instructors rating & had first ft job b4 I had even finished the rating. Was instructing & comm flying for the first 3yrs after training ft. Got hrs up v quickly then secured a contract in the Central Plateau which was all mountain air transport with minimal lifting etc. Having the instructors rating has been ideal & even now with the flying in PNG the instructing has been some of the most satisfying,challenging & demanding flying I have been exposed to. You are never without a job either as there always seems to be someone around looking for an instructor. If you are going to get into it, do so under no illusions about the job market & how tough it is out there once you have succeeded in obtaining the vital ingredient. You have to be single minded about it & be prepared to be turned down more times than you can count - unless you are born into it or have a good family friend which are invaluable to further you career. Whatever happens, keep it lighthearted & enjoy your training because I sometimes, even now, find myself yearning to be a student all over again. Its awesome fun.

Dangrenade

28th Mar 2001, 20:39

Lee, depends where you live, what you want to do with your licence and how much money you've got. You can do it here at umpteen schools on an approved course, over the Net(for your groundschool), do a Jaa licence in the States(cheep, cheep), do an Faa, then a CFI work for 24 months on a J1 visa (hours building) There are many options.....
However the hardest thing you will probably have to do is get your first job to build your hours as 'they' want you to have hours to get the job. Let me know if you want specific advice, happy to help. Good luck and keep your chopper up.

paco

28th Mar 2001, 21:36

Hi Robsibk

I'm in Calgary, operating 3 206s and 3 AStars between here and Fort Nelson. I did my own mountain flying in the military, but, to be honest, I learnt more over 2 days in Scotland with a chap who had been in Nepal with Bristows for 15 years, so I guess it only goes to show that all courses are not equal! Certainly, try Canadian in Penticton, but they aren't the only ones there - just find out who you're comfortable with, just making sure that what they teach you is accepted elsewhere in the industry, since the only "standard" is what's recommended by the HAC or what customers want. Mountain flying, like longlining, is not as hard or mysterious as people make out, which is not to say it doesn't need care or your full attention, but it's nothing that good training and a sensible attitude can't cure.

Good luck in your job search - it appears to be a good time to look right now

cheers

phil

[This message has been edited by paco (edited 28 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by paco (edited 28 March 2001).]

ravenx

3rd Apr 2001, 00:17

How realistic is it to expect to get a CFI job in the states on a J1. Also - how many hours do you reckon you could get without having to fly in your sleep

offshoreigor

3rd Apr 2001, 00:33

Lee:

Canadian Forces, SeaKings, Crew Commander, Base Rescue, UH-1H (205), SAR Captain, got out after 8 years went to the Air Ambulance in Ontario then Offshore Captain overseas within the same company.

If I had to do it again, see the above.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 02 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 02 April 2001).]

The Governor

4th Apr 2001, 03:24

I trained in the States at HAI, turned out to be a good move as after training they gave me a job and I managed to work out the remainder of the J1 to get 1100 hours before I was kicked out of the Good Ol' US of A.

As a bonus at HAI I also did the UK exams and left with a CAA CPL(H) and FI rating. Since then I have worked in the UK and now based overseas flying 212 and 412's. Not too shabby for 3 and a half years from getting into a helicopter.

I would recommend HAI as they are now in Florida, cheaper than the UK and they offer the chance to get a CAA license. The other benefit is they will help getting you a CFI job, they don't guarentee a job but they have so many grads working all over the US they know really well when jobs become available. You'll also make a lot of contacts you'll bump into/duck to avoid throughout your career. Only drawback at HAI as an instructor was a lack of turban...(sorry, that's another string) turbine hours.

As to the flying hours as a CFI, I worked really hard for the first year (7 days a week) to get 900 flown and then had spare time to study for the CAA exams as I worked out the last of my time on the J1. Just do what you have to do to get the time.

Good luck,

Gov

[This message has been edited by The Governor (edited 03 April 2001).]

Rene

1st Jun 2001, 03:26

In the process of saving pennies at the moment, but I'm checking out schools etc. Intention to gain CPL(H) from zero hours, I do hold PPL(A). Is it best to learn in the US then convert to CAA? Chances of getting a job with just CPL(H) and a couple of hundred hours? If so is it just with off-shore oil firms or are there other starter positions available? Thanks

quidam

1st Jun 2001, 12:18

Rene,
In a similar position to you.
1 hour, and working towards PPL(H) as the start to the modular CPL(H).
Wanna swap hints and tips?????
I'll try to e mail you direct over the weekend.

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It went Earth,Sky,
AMBULANCE

Thomas coupling

1st Jun 2001, 17:53

Hope you are young, wealthy and patient.

Good luck to you both.........

[before the rest of you comment, it's the truth they need to hear not sentiment!]

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Thermal runaway.

quidam

1st Jun 2001, 19:23

TC.
28, Class 1 medical passed. 50K available (have been working towards this for a long time!)Committed and very determined.Loved the limited flying I've done in helicopters.Want out of what I do and would quite happily teach rotary for the rest of my working days.Sane enough to take the lows with the highs,have support from my good lady.If I don't succeed intend to have enjoyed trying to its full potential.Aside from luck what else do I need???? :)

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It went Earth,Sky,
AMBULANCE

100%RPM

1st Jun 2001, 21:17

Quidam:

It's nice to know that there are still dreamers out there.

But if I were you, with 50K, I'd go fixed wing.

Anyway... if your passion is the choppers, be really prepared to take the ups and downs as you said, and good luck to you.

Happy flight!

Robsibk

1st Jun 2001, 22:03

Hi Rene !

Is that an Austrian PPL that you have????

Good luck!
Roberto

Rene

2nd Jun 2001, 20:21

Thank you all!
Why I appreciate everyones response and those of you good enough to inform us humble wannabes that it is an expensive and hard road to tread, no-one has actually provided any information on how to break into this fantastic profession.

Any productive feedback would be very much appreciated indeed, Thnak you

paco

2nd Jun 2001, 23:57

Try this.....

Getting Started
This is the most difficult bit – the cost of helicopter time is so great that it’s almost impossible to do without help, maybe from parents, or being trained in the Forces. Having said that, there are plenty of people who have done it, so it isn’t impossible, but these will tend be found in Canada or the USA, where it’s considerably cheaper. In Europe, where it’s over twice as expensive and you need more hours to get your licence (700 under JARs at the moment), anyone who can afford their own training would, in terms of pure financial reward, have to think twice before working as a pilot, because that sort of money can be considerably more productive elsewhere. At least you can then fly when you want to.

Mind you, it’s ultimately not that different in North America. Even though you only need 100 or 150 hours to get your ticket, you are still usually unemployable, unless your family owns the company (and even then the insurance companies or customers would have something to say), so you either have to do a couple of years as a hangar rat, that is, washing windscreens until your company sees what you’re like and trains you up, or buy the hours yourself. To be even remotely interesting to an employer (or, more correctly, a customer), you need at least 1000 hours, sometimes 1500, or some sort of specialised training, such as a mountain course (preferably both) and maybe an instrument rating, depending on the job.

Typically, there will be an internal course for ground staff with commercial licences, and who have been observed for a couple of seasons to see whether they are suitable. It will be run by senior pilots who are also instructors, and is a good thing to get on, as it will markedly improve your prospects over other pilots with the same hours as you, assuming that other companies recognise the standards. In fact, your training background is so important that you should pick your school carefully if you can’t get on such a course. Make sure whoever teaches you has actually been out and done the job themselves, and have maybe run their own companies. Unfortunately, it is possible for people to become instructors at 200 hours and stay there. Granted, if this wasn’t possible, the industry wouldn’t have nearly as many pilots as it needs, but there are many who would prefer that instructors have a minimum of 1500 hours before they start, because trouble is best avoided by not getting into it in the first place, and you only know how to do that with experience. You can’t teach what you don’t know.

Many schools indicate they might hire you once you complete your training, but don’t include that as a factor in your choice, as it’s generally only those that are part of a larger commercial organisation that can afford to do it, and the competition is keen. The employment situation can change from day to day, and it can be impossible to keep up with. Just regard it as a bonus.

When you budget for your training, don’t just count in the cost of your course, but the time afterwards going around companies to get hired; just sending resumes is no good at all (this could take up to four years). Note also that you may well need more hours than you think– certainly, as far as the PPL is concerned, the average time taken to pass is 67.7 hours, against a minimum requirement of about 40.

The machine you train on often counts, too – it took a long time for the Robinson R22 to get accepted over a Bell 47, and then only because the spares ran out. However, both are underpowered and are good for teaching you power management, if nothing else.

So, now that I’ve painted a really pessimistic picture of your prospects (by request, actually, from people who have been there before you), let’s start having a look at what you need to get your licence. After that, we’ll see what you might get up to after that, so you know what you’re letting yourself in for.

(continued in the heli pilot's handbook...)

Phil

hover lover

3rd Jun 2001, 00:00

Try the Just Helicopters bulletin board on the World Wide Web, Rene. The pilots there are from the USA, but the pilots who have posted their experiences say "It is tough all over". warning: most all the postings on the entire Just Helicopters board resemble JetBlast.

bladeslap

5th Jun 2001, 23:13

If what you're looking for is sensible helicopter pilot orientated (e.g regulatory (JAR), training, career, "how to" etc.) advice try http://www.plh.co.uk.

British Helicopter Advisory Board (BHAB) also have an excellent site on http://www.bhab.demon.co.uk.

Happy Landings

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Proper Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance........Do it right, seek advice!

Kiwi Skiv

6th Jun 2001, 01:19

Gidday guys,
Have you ever thought of coming down under to train?I think it is worth a look.With the money you have avalable you could get your Cpl(H)and still have money left to do more hours,get a turbine rating, extra mountain course(Which is part of the CPL over here)and pay for your living expenses.
Get in touch with Andy Mackay at www.heliflight.co.nz (http://www.heliflight.co.nz) as he is a very well respected training organisation and they offer some of the best mountain flying training in the world.

Safe flying

Skiv

[This message has been edited by Kiwi Skiv (edited 05 June 2001).]

rigidrotor_rt

10th Jul 2001, 07:53

..actually start?
I am in the US, 28 years old, and positioned to start my commercial rotorcraft career from ground zero. I am very serious and not trolling through on a whim. I am tryin to obtain some opinions from those who have come before me.
I have these resources:
-Money and medical in hand. ($45k & Class 1)
-Unlimited time (nothing but)
-No baggage (no ankle or wallet biters)
-No debts

I realistically figure the first 5 years after school completion will be "hour builders."..not to mention a lot of blood,sweat,tears, and possibly some hair pulling.
I realize a lot of work is ahead of me.

I would really appreciate an honest and straightforward answers. I think asking you guys and gals would be the best.E mail me if you want.

Thanks from Chris

[email protected]

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: rigidrotor_rt ]

IHL

10th Jul 2001, 13:39

Anywhere between 24 to 34 is probably the perfect age to start an aviation career. You're mature enough to avoid the pitfalls of raging hormones which inflicts most young men but still young enough to keep up with the demands of the very steep learning curve which is associated with learning to fly.

Before you spend the cash though think it thru, a career in helicopters is a dead end career. At your age and with your resources maybe you should think fixed wing, then after you become a $200,000+ captain with a major airline you could fly helicopters for a hobby.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: IHL ]

B Sousa

10th Jul 2001, 19:10

Better Yet. Use that Money, get a good education. Invent something to do with Computers, make a ton of money.....
Then SELL the business, buy a Helicopter of your choice and you will always be able to fnd some brokedick Helicopter Pilot to fly for you....

The Governor

11th Jul 2001, 01:26

You're definitely not too old. I started at 26 (three years ago now) in a similar position to you. Had the money, wanted a change and no ties.

You're quite right about the first few years paying your dues but I wouldn't say it'll take five years. You'll need to build about 1000 hours PIC before companies like Papillion, Themsco and PHI will consider hiring you. Once you have your first job after instructing for a year or two you should be set. I would recommend trying to find a job instructing after training which offers the chance to get some turbine time. This will be very helpful with the next step.

Timing is on your side as the demand for pilots is high and getting more so. I considered flying fixed wing but it's not all about money to me and I didn't want to end up sitting above the clouds never laying hands on the controls. You'll get paid less, work harder and have worse working conditions in the helicopter world but I think there are just rewards if you eventually fly SAR, police or EMS. Even outside of those fields there is a lot of interesting work flying helicopters.

Think about it seriously before you take the first step though I haven't regretted it for a second.

The Gov

t'aint natural

11th Jul 2001, 01:59

Just do it, kid. I'm 49, I missed the boat. I'm comfortable, get my kicks doing a bit of weekend instruction, but... just do it.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: t'aint natural ]

Aeotearoa

11th Jul 2001, 02:22

Good on Ya Mate,
Rigid go for it.I'm just starting my CPL Helicopter and its the dogs Bollocks.I have a lot of Fixed Wing time and the Chopper is the way to go.So what if you never earn the big bucks....A good time is what life is all about.Helicopter flying is real flying and not being there just along for the ride. :cool: I'm 32 and I think that it is true if you have a bit of age on your side it will help and make you a better/safer pilot :D .All the best and feel free to drop me aline as you go along.

Have Fun

rigidrotor_rt

11th Jul 2001, 05:09

Hey, thanks to all of you that replied! I do appreciate the honesty.
I figured long ago that "doing it for the money" was the way to go, but now I'm gonna do it for the fun. That's the reason I am leaving the medical field behind (or at least on a shelf!)

Chris

B Sousa

11th Jul 2001, 10:53

The fun of it all is great. Adventure, Women, flying to great places(within your fuel capacity)....Its like so many I have run into. They are now also in their fifties and will have to work till they die. Most have no home, no retirement, and a bunch of ex-wives. Lots of good memories though, for a while longer.
Just remember which shelf you left that medical field on.

rigidrotor_rt

12th Jul 2001, 06:48

double thanks! ..but the blood and guts has to go!
I'll remember not to dip into my IRA ;-)
Regards,
Chris

imabell

12th Jul 2001, 06:48

i started in the states at 32 and have had 23 years of fun and excitement.

i have to agree with b sousa that if you are in it for the money your better becoming a brain surgeon or world famous classical guitarist, just as much work but much better pay.

if you come to australia your 45 is worth 90 and a full commercial licence is 40 autralian
and on top of that we have the best flying environment on the planet (nz included in the best).

if you think it's fun learning remember that it's even better when some one pays you to do it. you go to work every day with a smile on your face.

press on. :cool:

Arm out the window

12th Jul 2001, 10:25

B Sousa,

Not too much more optimism there mate, you don't want build him up too much!

George Semel

14th Jul 2001, 00:56

Burt just says it like it is. Flying airplanes is not all that its cracked up to be either. I did the rotorwing back when I was 28 too. I'm 46 now. There is a lot more jobs around now than then. Do both. It just may be do able with the funds that you have. I'm heading to Hawaii in a few days to fly so things are moving along.

SPS

5th Aug 2001, 06:35

Received this request a couple of days ago and would like to help. This girl has spoken to Bristow's and not done too badly but wisely continues to cast her net. I will be mailing this thread to her in the hope it may help.

Follows ------

Dear Sir,

I am a seventeen-year-old sixth form student in Ipswich, England and am very keen on becoming a Helicopter Pilot while attending or on leaving university.

I currently take Maths, Physics, Biology and Chemistry at A-level.

Unfortunately, the cost of training to become a pilot is more than I can afford. I am therefore looking to find sponsorship to help with the cost. I was enquiring as to whether you had any schemes that could help with this or if you know of any companies who might be in the position to do so?

Thank-you very much for your time.

Ends------

Thanks all

Steve

Pac Rotors

5th Aug 2001, 11:59

I know that Helipro in NZ have a cadet scheme so if she wants to travel, not on a daily basis though, maybe she could look at that.

Pac Rotors

Stunty

5th Aug 2001, 12:57

This new mob doing Air Rescue in the South of Tasmania in conjunction with rotary have 2 scholarships up for grabs. Basic deal is you have to make a non-refundable $500 donation to rotary to be eligable. Normal testing, bla bla, interviews, bla, bla and then they short list 10 people - do a little flying and then 2 get the scholarships.

I was tempted to try myself but didn't like the look of it too much....yes free training is free training I know but i have been looking at different schools for a while and I am lucky enough to have the cash to be able to choose. I would love to hear from the industry what they think about - I am only a scum Air Traffic Controller.

Not sure of the website exactly but if you do a search for Tasmanian Air Rescue Trust that should bring it up.

Dupre

5th Aug 2001, 13:10

try http://www.helipro.co.nz/services/training_price_guide.html#HELiPRO%20cadetship

It doesn't seem like a sponsorship scheme - rather you pay and they give you working experience as well...

Probably much cheaper than the UK anyway!! (quoted NZD59,000 or £20,000)

Good luck!

Too Cloudy

5th Aug 2001, 13:59

Whatever you do stay away from the Tasmanian option. Nothing in aviation is "free". In fear of litigation I can't go into too many details about how things are run down there.
Best warning....avoid like the plague at all costs. ;)

Nick Lappos

5th Aug 2001, 15:41

SPS,
There might be a path to professional rotary wing piloting if this young lady could make her way to the US. Our military services are all quite keen to find women to fly. With strong academics, she could qualify for the US Army Warrant Officer Course, which requires only some college. The US service acadamies (West Point, Anapolis and the Air Force Academy) all actively recruit women for officer positions.

I don't know the ins and outs of getting a sponsor for immigration, nor can I appreciate how difficult it might be to leave one's country for a career move. Many US airlines, and corporations actively seek women as pilots, so the post military career possibilities are excellent, too.

pitchlink

5th Aug 2001, 17:43

Scotia are seriously looking at reinsrating some sort of sponsorship scheme in order to aleviate their pilot shortage of the future, so you could do worse than drop them a line! If you are interested, I am not too far away if you would like to come and have a look around, witness the glamour of wearing rubber suits and flying at low level in crap weather drop me an email.

B.Loser

5th Aug 2001, 18:24

Hi SPS,

You may want to have your friend check out this sight:
http://www.avscholars.com/women.phtml

At the very least, encourage her to contact some of the members in order to "get the bird's eyes view" of the future she is contempating.

Best of luck to her.

B. Loser

B Sousa

5th Aug 2001, 20:14

www.whirlygirls.org (http://www.whirlygirls.org)

Give that one a try, you may be surprised.

Whirlybird

6th Aug 2001, 13:59

Whirlygirls (an international organisation of female helicopter pilots) definitely do have scholarships. However, I joined last year, but have heard nothing from them since, despite having asked by e-mail for details of scholarships etc. I've never heard of anyone else having problems with them, but I'm not sure what's going on.

Stunty

6th Aug 2001, 14:06

Point Of Interest.

After reading the post on Helipro's cadetship I looked it up and had a good read last night - looks bloody expensive but you come out with crew ratings, several type endorsments, turbine rating and some comercial experience.

Where I am working there are lots of helicopters and lots of Kiwi's (guess - I dare you). So I ask the kiwi guy on the freq "what do you know about a mob called helipro doing CPL training in NZ" and he replies "I know a lot - there was a scathing story on NZ 60 minutes about a crash they had in the mountains around wellington - apparently traced back to dodgy maitenance and they are suffering badly from it - crash was probably avoidable at the least"

Intersting hey?? BTW I'd love to know more about why to stay away from the Tassie option - after all this is any anonymous and rumour forum.

Cheers

Too Cloudy

6th Aug 2001, 14:55

Stunty,
Unfortunately my anonymity was blown because of a previous post . Check out the bonafides of the Chief Pilot at Rotor-Lift and ask around the industry in OZ. All your questions will be answered.

Stunty

7th Aug 2001, 13:54

Thanks TC - ill ask some people.

BTW - easy way to solve your anonymous problem - just create a new user!

The Stunt Man

collective bias

9th Aug 2001, 09:48

The Tasmanian option is not one at all. I have 2 friends who worked for the company and both entered with substancial hours and promised the earth with the usual results.
Helipro = Dodgy (from experience)
Military option definately good idea and they would probably put her through Uni as well.
Other than that, go see the bank like the rest of us. :rolleyes:

jet jones

18th Sep 2001, 22:53

Hi Guys this is my first time in the rotor section...I am a lover of everything capable of flight. I was just wondering how much it cost to gain a full ATPL(H)? What is the process? Is there a PPLH? and if there is what can you fly with that? Can you go modular like fixed wing? thanks in advance for your answers..

paulgibson

19th Sep 2001, 11:32

Know a few people who have done the research (and got subsequent jobs) re cost (if that is a factor) and training here in australia is very favourable. Generally a basic commercial license is enough to start with. If you want to go onto twin engine machines etc. then ATPL and Instrument Ratings are a must. Good luck with it all.

tigerpic

20th Sep 2001, 10:14

the atp is the last certificate/license (depending on what country you take it in) you will get. an atp is required to be the pilot-in-command (captain) in a two-pilot environment. the requirements are either 1200 hours total or 1500 hours, also depending on where you take it. there are also some other requirements in flight time before you can go ahead and do the checkride.

some companies do require you to have a atp (or at least the written theory exams) before you will get hired as a copilot. this because they intend to train you towards becomming a future captain. i have been told that the atp is equivalent with a ph.d.

most people (like me) can't afford to buy the time up to this amount, so what they do is that they start off with a private (ppl), then go for commercial and an instrument rating, and finally getting a job to build the hours.

i fly by myself and have no requirement to have an atp although i will do the checkride when i get the chance. most pilots will never take that last certificate/license. the atp stage is education too!

Lefthanddown

20th Sep 2001, 14:53

A PPL in the UK will cost at least £12,000 and with this you will have 45+ hrs.
You will need to have at least 150hrs before you will be able to sit the CPL or ATPL exams (which are not as hard as an PHd but do require a lot of application if you want to pass first time). To get to this amount of hours is going to cost you another £25,000. Or you can do a course ab-initio course straight to CPL £60,000.
The only problem is once you have done your exams and have 150+ hrs no-one will want to employ you because of low hours so you will need to build up at least 400-500 before
people will look at you seriously as a commercial pilot.
Most people become instructors so you can at least earn some money whilst building hours.
The beauty of this is that you also learn to fly really well....which is nice!
Essentially you will need at least £45,000 to get to CPL stage unless the North Sea starts hiring again.
If you can get hold of this you will probably have the single best job in the world :eek: :eek: :eek:
:cool: :cool: :)

tigerpic

20th Sep 2001, 16:48

i would say that operators won't look at you as a serious commercial pilot until you have at least (!) 1000-1500 hours depending on what type of flying you do. if you are slinging timber in canada at 500 hours since, i would be dead serious, but that's my personal opinion. :D

btw, a ph.d. is difficult, the atp is just a lot to study... just remembering the characteristics between certain chart projections was a nightmare (stereographic, mercator, lambert, etc.) :rolleyes: plus, why do heli-pilots have to do a flightplan for a small turboprop from stockholm/sweden to reykjavik/iceland? if i could make it to norway on one tank, i would be satisfied.

PurplePitot

21st Sep 2001, 02:51

Small Turboprop! I wish! Mine was a 747 to somewhere in the former Yugoslavia, down to three engines after top of climb with revised PNR and CP - Not sure how this affected my B206 but hey, the CAA know best...Right. :eek:

21st Sep 2001, 10:28

visit www.srg.caa.co.uk (http://www.srg.caa.co.uk) they have all your licencing requirements in pdf documents.

lagonda

13th Oct 2001, 13:58

I posted recently elsewhere on pprune asking for advice as someone who, at fast approaching 40, is looking for a change of career.

I have a PPL (A) from a scholarship back in the early 80's and have decided that the world of commerce is no longer for me and want to move into professional flying, if at all possible.

Several people commented that the opportunities at my age with the likes of BA where probably negligible but several, including Clive Hughes terrific book, where more encouraging with the idea of smaller operators, freight organisations and instructing.

One thing that I hadn’t considered until now was rotary. So, do the same things apply to flying rotary professionally or is there greater or less scope? What are pay rates like compared to the fixed wing world? Is there anyone who has done what I am intending to do and is willing to share their experiences, either on this forum or via e-mail?

Thanks in advance, guys. ( and I include the girls in that!). :)

ShyTorque

13th Oct 2001, 16:06

Navig8r,

You haven't chosen the best of times, it must be said. With the sudden recent slump in fixed-wing employment a lot of former rotary chaps are trying to go back to their original employment.

However, this possibly wouldn't affect you as you will have a long time yet before you would be in a position to look for a meaningful rotary job.

The problem with rotary is that the training is VERY expensive, hour for hour, compared to fixed wing. As far as rewards are concerned, ask a commercial fixed-wing pilot what he earns and divide it by two to get in the right ball park.

Sorry I can't be more optimistic and the very best of luck!

ShyT

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: ShyTorque ]

lagonda

15th Oct 2001, 02:09

ShyT

thanks for the response.

I know the timing isn't brilliant, but I figure it'll take me a while to get to the required standard any how.

If I wait for a good time, I'll never get around to it and be posting again when I'm 50!! :D

Vfrpilotpb

15th Oct 2001, 17:07

Hi Nav,

Go for it, remember " Tempus Fugit" once fugit has gone so have all your chances, don't wait , I did and now all I can do is think back, some say it is never to late, well believe me it can be too late!!

lagonda

16th Oct 2001, 01:35

Thanks - you are all absolutely right, it always helps to have someone confirm you are not off your rocker and it was the right idea in the first place.

Now to convince the wife. :D

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: Navig8r ]

The Nr Fairy

16th Oct 2001, 12:19

Now I think Navig8r has grasped the nub of the problem . . .

Robbo Jock

16th Oct 2001, 15:56

Navig8r,

I've done almost exactly what you're considering. I'm 41 with a not so shiny new CPL(H) (got it two years back) and back doing what I was doing prior to starting the course. I did the CPL full time and had an absolute whale of a time on the course, all day every day learning about flying, talking about flying and flying. Fantastic. Unfortunately, at the end of the course, reality sets in - you're 40+, low/negligable hours, you've probably got commitments which mean you're not as cheap &/or flexible as you could be and, as someone has pointed out above, you've got competition from younger or more experienced (or both!) bods. Am I bitter? No, that's life. Am I sorry I did it? No way! As I said I had a fantastic time and have achieved a lifetime's ambition. I still, whether I'm using it at the moment or not, have a CPL(H) and I can still get a job flying (there's no way I could if I didn't have the Licence!)

My one regret is that I didn't go on to do an FI(H) immediately I finished the CPL(H). I could be getting paid to fly at weekends with one of those. I was perfectly set up to do one: confident, current, crammed full of theory. Unfortunately I was also broke :)

So, in short, go for it, but try and get an FI(H) at the end of the course and best of luck to you.

And I would recommend Cabair at Cranfield - the CFI(H) is superb.

RJ

captaindeakin

18th Oct 2001, 00:20

I've recently qualified with a PPL 'A' over one year with 59 hours in the book, only a few of these hours were jollys.

I would know like to learn to fly a heli, once I have 100 hours so that I can get the 'H' bit in the miniumum 35 hours.

Has anyone done this?

lagonda

18th Oct 2001, 02:40

Thanks for that dose of reality!

It had occured to me that the path to happiness at my age may be through bringing the light to others and passing on the wisdom of age as well as that of aviatin law and lore!

In other words - I hear what all you guys are saying and the resolve is strengthening - thanks. :D

Vfrpilotpb

18th Oct 2001, 10:03

Good Morning Extreme,
According to my Log book, I was solo in R22 at 11.2 hours, and passed my test at 36.3 hrs, Then I started to learn how to fly, and am still learning new things about the H flying today, as for your question as to " How Easy", I think its purely down to the CFi and your ability to pick up how to control an unstable piece of kit, oh , and sweat buckets in the process!
My Regards

helimutt

18th Oct 2001, 12:27

Extreme Danger:
Unfortunately it isn't possible to get the PPL(H) in 35 hours any more.
I did my PPL(H) first then the PPL(A). It did mean I only needed to do 35 hours fixed wing for that licence. The new rules (I think) state if you have a licence for fixed wing, then you can reduce the amount of hours required for PPL(H) by 10% of total hours fixed wing, up to a maximum of 6 hours.
That would mean 39 hours required.

Like VFRPILOT, I solo'd at 11 hours during PPL(H) training but that was in 1994 and no-one in their right mind should let you go off solo with that many hours in an R22. Most schools say over 20 hours before you can go solo.
I also took the test with 38 hours under my belt and scraped a pass and yes, I too am still learning.
Remember the new JAR regs state 45 hours for the PPL(H). It has to include 5 hours instrument appreciation flying. The only realistic way of getting a licence in minimum time is to do a full time course over about 3 weeks.(weather dependant). It's a lot more fun and beneficial.
Hope this is of some help.

[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: helimutt ]

Whirlybird

18th Oct 2001, 14:57

I too had a PPL(A) and hoped to get my PPL(H) in 35 hours. It took me a lot more, and I now think that was a good thing. You can never learn too much about flying helicopters, especially R22s. I recently talked to a very experienced instructor who got his PPL in the minimum number of hours; he said he later discovered just how little he knew about helicopters. At the school where he teaches people never qualify in the minimum number of hours; ditto at the one where I learned. I know some people do at some schools; I wonder how, and I seriously wonder if they know enough to be safe. It's not that they can't fly the thing; you can develop the skills and reactions required in 35 hours. But with a helicopter there's just so much more....

H-43

18th Oct 2001, 18:54

ED:

Here in the States I was able to add-on a helicopter rating to my previous fixed wing rating in 32 hours. This was great in terms of cost and I really did feel quite comfortable in the helicopter, however, once I decided to go for my commercial and CFI ratings that wasn't so great because of low hours. I recieved my CFI rating at around 95 hours and it was a real chore getting a job. Finally found one flying with a guy in a Rotorway. I don't know if you plan to go on with helicopters but if you do fly as much as you can afford.

Brian

captaindeakin

19th Oct 2001, 00:00

Thanks for the info.

I'm really tempted to book my first lesson in the next four week to see how I feel about it.

What are the really differences between fixed and rotary in terms of enjoyment and do you ever get confused?

Balance!

19th Oct 2001, 12:25

Extreme
I must agree with all the previous comments. I don't think I really understood what was going on until Mr Balman shook me awake during my instuctor course.

On an hours front, we've just had a student (with PPLA) pass the LST with just 40 hours. He was good, had excellent feel, a sensible approach and was absolutely committed and like all 'go get 'em' youngsters we had to rein him in a bit every now and then. Nice thing is though, he realises that he's on the bottom step and considers that he has a licence to learn now

Regards the enjoyment of Fixed versus Rotary - Beware! I thought I'd had all the enjoyment I could manage after 22 years of fixed wing including a couple of years of aerobatics in a Pitts. However, someone stupidly suggested that I take a heli trial lesson. Wham - I was hooked. Nothing beats it for flying. Honest. I still do some fixed wing to stay current, but the pleasure and satisfaction of flying then blades beats trolling around in a plank anyday.

On a cautionary note though - in the early days it is possible to get confused with some of the control inputs necessary, particularly when under stress - but if you want it, you'll work it out

Go for it - you'll not regret it

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: balance_trim ]

The Nr Fairy

19th Oct 2001, 12:28

In terms of enjoyment, I get more fun out of helicopters a) because it's an ambition held since I was 10 or 15 years old and b) because you can't relax on the controls in a Robbie you can't think about anything else - all your worldly woes are left behind.

Whirlybird

19th Oct 2001, 23:05

My experience was similar to Balance Trim's. I was perfectly happy, had a PPL(A) for a year or so, flown all over the country during my first full summer of flying, and then for something different I took a trial heli lesson. Half an hour, and I was hooked. I fought it, I really did. I said I was just going back for a day, then I said I'd just learn to hover. Then I did a quick calculation, and decided I could manage to get a PPL(H) without completely bankrupting myself, but then just fly once a month or so, which maybe I could afford, and stick with f/w the rest of the time. As the date for my GFT came closer, I began to realise that was never going to be enough. After I was told I'd passed my GFT, my first question was about going commercial. You see, I just HAD to keep flying helicopters, which meant I was going to have to get paid for it, somehow, someday...

While I was learning to fly helos I got a bit confused switching between the two, but that could have been because at the same time I moved to a different airfield and was trying to learn to fly a new f/w type! The consequent overload meant I had to keep reminding myself what I was flying. Although the airfield was happy for me to fly solo (f/w this is), I didn't feel confident, and for a while I always flew with someone else. But after a while that sorted itself out, and it's not really a problem now. Helis are much more fun, for the same reasons everyone else has mentioned. But I like flying both, and I'm determined to keep both licences if I can manage it, though it's difficult in terms of both time and money. Another thing is that R22s aren't really touring machines; they're small and uncomfortable. I have flown from Wolverhampton to Paris in one; I enjoyed it but don't recommend it really. Which means unless I can afford a bigger helicopter - or get paid to fly one - I prefer f/w to tour, helicopters to play :)

Whirlybird

19th Oct 2001, 23:18

Navig8r and Robbo Jock,

I'm older than both of you (oh no, I've just confessed that I'm not the sweet young thing I pretend to be!), and in the same sort of situation. I've nearly finished the CPL(H) course, and I'm nearly broke too. But I've had a great time, and I'll be so chuffed to get that licence that I don't give a damn. I'll go back to doing what I was before (and still am doing), get enough money to do the FI course, then hopefully instruct part time. Or whatever. No, it wasn't and isn't sensible in the usually accepted meaning of the word. But how can doing what you really really want to do and which you enjoy so much not be sensible? I too was afraid I was too old. But I was even more afraid that if I waited another ten years until I really was too old, I'd look back and say: "If only". Which someone once said are the two saddest words in the English language.

Blade88

20th Oct 2001, 14:55

What does the future for our profession as helicopter pilots look like?
Serving in the US military, I am very sheltered from the commercial helicopter industry, so my information is only from what I read or second hand from folks in the industry. I have been hearing of increased helicopter usage and decreasing pilot banks. In the US, I've been told that in the past, you could not swing a dead cat without hitting a helicopter pilot, thank you Vietnam era glut, is that changing? Two years ago the FAA showed a decrease in the amount of active CPLs and ATPs for helicopters, the first such decline in ages. Job sites are now posting want adds for pilots with much less than the 3K hour minimun we have seen in the past. I visited two EMS outfits in NW US and the pilots I spoke with were, well, I hate to say old, because I'm 41 myself, so perhaps, very, very experienced.
So what is the future for our profession, too many pilots and not enough jobs or future shortages of experienced pilots, any thoughts?

whobob

20th Oct 2001, 16:30

My two cents worth, since you asked !
Future looks great, if you consider why
( from a civilian point of view !!).
Companies don't care about you, so the attraction for "newcomers" is zip, zero,nada.
First you have to get the money to pay for flighttraining, which in Europe just hit
app.us$90.000 to get a CPL(H)+IR(me) from scratch. Then you have to get a "first" job, since you have no experience. If you do get one, the guy who hired you probably will pay you less than McD, burger king an the likes !
So most candidates, looking into the scoop of things, decide....Nah, not worth it ! Then you have a few, that makes it, but realistically, there's not that many selfpropelled people to secure the helicopter industry's future. Millitary pay's 1/3 more than civilian, so why leave ? So the people left, that hasen't turned 55, will soon be able to ask any $$ from these (soon to be) people loving helicopter companies, that really, REALLY likes you, and will give you all the things, like pensions, more $$$$ etc,etc,etc. My guess is this will happen in about 3years time, when most of the small to medium operators have gone belly up, and no pilot will believe any offers unless there's a written contract, sign up bonus, fair working conditions, pension ( a real one )and FAIR PAY etc.
Cheers :D

Charlie Foxtrot India

20th Oct 2001, 16:44

I've just started pottering about in an R22, because I am doing a deal with my heli instructor to convert him to fixed wing CPL. (3 hours in a Tomahawk for 1 hour in an R22) He told me that it was in the R22 flight manual that you had to have 20 hours before you could fly one solo, is that true?

Anyway I'm having a ball, loving every second of it, boring my husband and my friends to tears going on and on about it etc etc and eveloping very strong muscles in my right arm.
Trouble is ATC, who know me well, keep taking the pi$$ out of me when they hear my wobbly squeaky voice transmitting from one of the "angry palm trees". Especially when I hit the wrong button and say things like "Why the f*** does it keep DOING that??? OH **** YOU HAVE CONTROL!!!!!"
So to answer your question, Exreme Danger, the push to talk buttons are definately a source of confusion! And the proximity to trees makes me want to close my eyes, probably not a very good idea. And everytime I get close to the ground I try to flare it like an aeroplane, also not a very good idea, apparently.
Other differences...it freaked me out at first not having a nice plank wing to look at, and seeing the ground disappear between my feet. Still, I'm very proud that after 3.5 hours I can keep my hover within about an acre and haven't hit the wind sock yet.

I take back everything I said about you guys!!
:p

Rotorbike

20th Oct 2001, 17:43

CFI

It isn't in the flight manual that it indicates that you must have 20 hours before solo, unless it is an Australian requirement/extra but a US FAA regulation.

In the US back in 1995 there was a FAA regulation by the name of SFAR 73 in which it states <<A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class
rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R-22
helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight.>>

Should you which to read the whole regulation it can be found at http://www.faa.gov/avr/AFS/FARS/far-61.txt and a short way down the page.

This is what is probably being stated to you and by the sounds of what your instructor is telling you it is also an Australian requirement.

:D

chips_with_everything

21st Oct 2001, 00:18

Having just been through the CPLA to PPLH thing myself, and now going to work on getting comfy with flying both, I agree with the pile of terrific advice given on this thread.

My own extra- after completing the license I decided on a bit more training to cover techniques that are not in the Aussie PPL syllabus.

If the British situation is similar I'd recommend allowing about 40 hours for the license conversion training and test, then say 5 or 10 more for a bit of low-level, pedal turns, quick stops and torque turns.

These are items from the CPL syllabus that will sharpen your flying, and give you some options in your toolkit you will appreciate. Quick stops in particular might save the day in some situations.

Also I'm finding that autorotation proficiency slips, so need to practice autos with an instructor from time to time. See this as essential.

Helibiggles

21st Oct 2001, 16:16

Why would you want a IFR - ME rating when you only have a bare licence...???
Also....
This constant bitching from the pom sector about income is really annoying. If your motivation is to earn big bucks and live your life in pursuit of the perfect pension plan while working for the perfect company - you are in the wrong career. Believe me, if you ever find the perfect package,perfect conditions and perfect employer, it will no longer be perfect, because a w@#ker like you will be involved in it.
Flying and aviation are lifestyle jobs. If you don't enjoy it enough for all the current benefits and conditions, then get out of the game and leave it to those who enjoy getting up for work everyday.

Charlie Foxtrot India

21st Oct 2001, 17:01

Thanks for that Rotorbike, it was the ops manual not the flight manual that had that requirement. I should have been listening better!

The Flashing Blade

21st Oct 2001, 17:37

Extreme Danger

I'm much like the previous. I did my PPL(A)and immediately switched to helicopter training after passing my fixed wing flight test. I flew for a week, every day and then 2 hours every week after that until I passed. Alogether it came to 38 hours including the flight test.

Do I enjoy it ? Well I have flown 2 hours in a fixed wing since starting to fly helicopters two years ago. My PPL(A) is now lapsed and I'm not looking back. Not only is it great fun, you get the benefit of taking the mick out of the fixed wing only guys when there runway is waterlogged !

The best advice I can offer is to get yourself on the R22 safety course as soon as you can after you've passed. It'll scare you, make you sweat, but you'll learn things on that course you should have been taught while you were training. Can't recommend it enough.

soggyboxers

22nd Oct 2001, 00:25

There is no future in rotary aviation - only endless repititions of the past. :mad:

H-43

22nd Oct 2001, 01:26

I have to agree with HB. I don't fly helicopters because I am going to get rich doing it. However someone once told me to find a job at something I loved and I would never work another day in my life. I happen to love flying helicopters and that is why I do it and will continue to do it. And if you are persistent and work toward some of the more niche sectors you can even make decent money.

Just my $.02

Rigsby

22nd Oct 2001, 02:11

Extreme D...I have recently completed my PPL (H)on the R44 and with the benefit of the CAAs exemption for my ATPL(A) was able to complete the course in the minimum 39 Hours... I was fortunate to solo after 8 and once this stage was over, it all seemed to go quite well.... I then received the license through the post and took out some friends for a jolly, its at this stage when you realise you know absolutely Jack Sh*t about helicopters!! with a mighty 39 hours total time...Blades advise regarding the Robinson safety course is a good one, and one I will take up as soon as I can get over to the States...I have several thousands of hours in various Airliners, but nothing beats the feeling of freedom in the Helicopter....Great Fun!

ps, I would recomend Heliair for your training if you are in the Uk...excellent set up. :)

HelosRfun

24th Dec 2001, 03:36

Well, since you ask...,

A couple of months ago I was just CPL(H) WITH a job.
Now I am a ATPL(H) WITHOUT a job.
Go figure? Could be 9-11 and bad timing I suppose.

Devil 49

24th Dec 2001, 06:28

ATP worth $600 extra at present employer. Yep, I got my eye on a little spread I'm gonna buy with all this extra loot...

Steve76

24th Dec 2001, 18:47

ATPL is a necessary requirement for most Command positions on multi-engine helo's.
If you are not interested in Multi work then it is probably not beneficial to get it. However, as a professional aviator it is good to learn as much about your occupation as possible and the ATPL further extends your knowledge.
With some management and upper level company positions an ATPL will add weight to your application and lately in OZ it is often one of the minimum requirements for general job applications.
Merry Chrissy :)

Helinut

26th Dec 2001, 01:50

I believe the answer to your question depends which country you are talking about. In the UK, where JAR FCL is changing things, an ATPL(H) under the "old" system was simply a question of holding a CPL(H) and then acquiring the necessary number of flying hours. Once you got 1200 total hours (and some other min hrs for PIC,cross country etc)you could trade in your CPL(H) for an ATPL(H)- subject to paying a bit towards the rent for the Belgrano of course. At that stage, you did not need to have an IR. The only additional privilege of the old ATPL(H) was that it allowed you to be PIC of a multi crew helicopter. This was pretty much irrelevant, unless you flew offshore, since almost all onshore helicopters are certified single crew in the UK. There are a lot of old style ATPL(H)s out there held by pilots with no IR and little or no multi crew time.

To get a JAR FCL ATPL(H) you must have done the ATPL level technical knowledge exams, hold a helicopter IR and multi crew experience. It is very similar to the FW ATPL requirement.

Alan.Devins

5th Feb 2002, 04:01

Hello,. .I have a question,

Im 15 and have a year and half of school left.. .Im interested in becoming a commercial helicopter pilot and have started flying planes as I was told it would be better experience before moving onto helicopters.. .I want to know what kind of grades are needed and if 3rd level education is required or recommended.

And one last one Whats the pay like?

Hope you can help. .Alan

Hughes500

5th Feb 2002, 11:08

Alan

Join the military and be payed to learn. Otherwise you get in a catch 22. Not enough hours to get the experience to become empolyed, so how does one get the experience, espically turbine hours ? Unless you are very wealthy or very lucky the cheapest way is to join up.

Good luck ! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

paco

5th Feb 2002, 13:40

I believe in the UK you need a certain amount of GCSEs (General Certificate of Secondrate Education <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) before you can take the exams. The CAA can tell you the grades required.

These days, the job needs more specialisation, mainly because insurance companies and customers tend to specify pilot requirements, so you have to decide early on in which direction you want to go, as it is fairly difficult to move from one to the other - not impossible, but you will have another pile of certificates and hours to get before you become employable in the other field. This relates to the choice between IFR and VFR, and the fun things like longlining.

If it helps, here is an extract from a book what I wrote:

Getting started is the most difficult bit – the cost of helicopter time is so great that it’s almost impossible to do without help, maybe from parents, or being trained in the Forces. Having said that, there are plenty of people who have done it, so it isn’t impossible, but these will tend be found in Canada or the USA, where it’s considerably cheaper. In Europe, where it’s over twice as expensive and you need more hours to get your licence, anyone who can afford their own training would, in terms of pure financial reward, have to think twice before working as a pilot, because that sort of money can be considerably more productive elsewhere. At least you can then fly when you want to.

Mind you, it’s ultimately not that different in North America. Even though you only need 100 (Canada) or 150 (USA) hours to get your ticket, you are still usually unemployable, unless your family owns the company (and even then the insurance companies or customers would have something to say), so you either have to do a couple of years as a hangar rat, that is, washing windscreens until your company sees what you’re like and trains you up, or buy the hours yourself. To be even remotely interesting to an employer (or, more correctly, a customer), you need at least 500 hours, sometimes 1000 or 1500, or some sort of specialised training, such as a mountain course (preferably both) and maybe an instrument rating, depending on the job.. .Typically, in a large company, there will be an internal course for ground staff with commercial licences, and who have been observed for a couple of seasons for suitability. It will be run by senior pilots who are also instructors, and is a good thing to get on, as it will markedly improve your prospects over other pilots with the same hours as you, assuming that other companies recognise the standards. In fact, your training background is so important that you should pick your school carefully if you can’t get on such a course. Make sure whoever teaches you has actually been out and done the job themselves, and have maybe run their own companies. Unfortunately, it is possible for people to become instructors at 200 hours and stay there. Granted, if this wasn’t possible, the industry wouldn’t have nearly as many pilots as it needs, but there are many who would prefer that instructors have a minimum of 1500 hours before they start, because trouble is best avoided by not getting into it in the first place, and you only know how to do that with experience. You can’t teach what you don’t know.

Many schools indicate they might hire you once you complete your training, but don’t include that as a factor in your choice, as it’s generally only those that are part of a larger commercial organisation that can afford to do it, and the competition is keen. The employment situation can change from day to day, and it can be impossible to keep up with. Just regard it as a bonus.

When you budget for your training, don’t just count in the cost of your course, but the time afterwards going around companies to get hired; just sending resumes is no good at all (this could take up to four years). Note also that you may well need more hours than you think– certainly, as far as the PPL is concerned, the average time taken to pass is 67.7 hours, against a minimum requirement of about 40.

The machine you train on often counts, too – it took a long time for the Robinson R22 to get accepted over a Bell 47, and then only because the spares ran out (the fact that the Robbie only needs a can of oil occasionally probably helped). However, both are underpowered and are good for teaching you power management, if nothing else.

So, now that I’ve painted a really pessimistic picture of your prospects (by request, actually, from people who have been there before you), let’s have a look at what you need to get your licence, then what you might get up to after that, so you know what you’re letting yourself in for.

First of all, though, here’s a quick checklist of all the stages you might go through, with suggestions for getting the best bang for your buck—at this stage, the pile of money in your pocket will buy one of two things; a commercial licence, with minimum hours, or a share in a helicopter in which you can fly all you want, including training, assuming you have the money for fuel.

Before you do anything, get a Class 1 medical, because all the training in the world will useless if you fail it.

Do a trial lesson in a helicopter, to see if you have the aptitude.

Enrol on a fixed wing commercial course. It may sound daft, but there are sound reasons for it, which the military have known about for years. One is that the written examinations are almost the same, except for principles of flight, and you will learn about 80% of your future trade at a much reduced cost (navigation, use of radios, etc), assuming the requirement for hours is about the same. There are some who will argue that your money is best spent on helicopter time at this stage, but you won't be remaining a low-time pilot, hopefully, to whom that advice is best applied. It's also another string to your bow, and you can do it on a single. If you intend an IFR career, then do the Instrument Rating as well. In building up your hours, you could always include potential employers on the trips and do some job hunting first!

Convert the fixed wing commercial to a helicopter one, with an add-on qualification. You now have more total hours for the same money, and maybe some change for a turbine rating.

Otherwise, there are distinct stages in the average pilot's career. First, you fly single-engined piston machines, then turbine ones, then multis, then you might go IFR (in fixed wing, you go multi, IFR, then turbine). Along the way, you pick up specialist stuff like longlining, and by the time you retire you finally have enough qualifications to get a job

I hope I haven't been overly cycnical, and I would never try to stop anyone doing what they really want to do - I just wish more people would go into it with their eyes open. The advice given by Hughes500 is sound - you could join the miltary, but don't expect to do a lot of hours, as they tend to expect you to be better at driving a desk and killing people than actually flying. Having said that, that's the way i did it and I had a good time, managing to avoid a war (occupational hazard). You will learn a lot about flying, but the civvie world is completely different, and many operators in Western Canada don't like military pilots anyway, so it cuts no ice.

regards

Phil

PS I like your signoff line

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]</p>

B Sousa

5th Feb 2002, 18:30

You want to fly, come to the US, get your license.. .You want to work, come to the US and use your license. You just have to figure out all the other incidentals on your own.. .It seems all the folks from the UK and the above Canadian seem to think you must be a rocket scientist to fly a helicopter. Not true and you also dont need to have a Masters degree from college. You want to fly, do it.. .There are cheaper ways to do things, as mentioned above get a fixed wing license and then a helicopter "add-on" rating..... Same license just financially easier. AND...yes thats a big AND you will find that Airline Pilots make one hell of a lot more money than Helicopter Pilots. You may find Fixed Wing more to your liking. They also get first shot at the better looking members of the crew (you have plenty of time for that). .Good Luck, set your goals and go for it.

paco

5th Feb 2002, 18:49

I never said he needed to be a rocket scientist.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> but the skills test would involve something to do with sex and booze! (aoplogies to a thread on canadianaviation.com)

phil

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]</p>

Thomas coupling

5th Feb 2002, 21:58

Alan,

In all seriousness, presumably you want to stay this side of the pond (Ireland/UK)?. .If you go to the US it is fraught with immigration red tape and at the end of it there is a lot of flying for not much money.

My advice without question would be to join the military. Get your hours and experience. This gives you a fighting chance on two fronts:. .(a) It gets you loads of hours for free which helps with obtaining your commercial licence.. .(b) The training pipeline is a known and well tested background which everyone can relate to. I'm not saying the civvy route is any less professional but it doesn't necessarily come with a guarantee of quality <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . .As soon as you get your quals, quit if you want to and fly commercially with the minimum of costs.. .Do it privately however,and it will cost you £30-£50,000. OR, it will take forever to clock up your hours renting yourself out (sometimes for free) to attain the relevant minimum hours.

Once qualified you can choose which sector to fly in: Off shore / freelance / government service / etc. This choice is made easier with a mil background.

Salaries: Commercial Captain with a CPL(H) ranges from: £20,000 - £40,000 starting pay. Believe me - no-one flies for the money :) . .[except perhaps the rigs. . <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> ].

If you want the bucks - airlines. .If you want the thrills - helo. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Thomas coupling ]</p>

staticdroop

5th Feb 2002, 23:02

Hi there, as a military pilot i would agree with a lot that has been said, that military is easier to get the hours and get paid for it. However be carefull who you join. RAF an Navy would be a good bet but do not get sucked into the Army system. It takes years to get into a place where you can apply to fly, if you are a NCO pilot. If you join as an officer then you will fly for 4 years then sit behind a desk for 6-8 years before seeing another aircraft. Do not be put of by this as the flying is the best you will do, however choose carefully.

Alan.Devins

6th Feb 2002, 02:08

Thanks for all the help guys.

Alan

jof_rowe

22nd Apr 2002, 14:19

I would appreciate any help!!

i have recently had my 1st helicopter lesson, really enjoyed it & now would like to make a childhood dream come true by doing it professionally!!

if anyone could give me any pointers on the best (and cheapest) way to go about it, i would be most grateful!!

cheers!!

ps is there such a thing as a helicopter pilot scholarship, here or abroad?

TCM

22nd Apr 2002, 20:59

You could do worse than to have another couple of lessons to check that it is something that you definitely want to pursue (even if you are sure now!) it is a lot of money to fork out on the basis of an hour or less in a helicopter.

If you think it is what you want to do, then you must get a class 1 medical (about £400 I think) to see if you are medically fit so that you don't potentially waste time and money later, then perhaps some aptitude testing would be a good idea (have a look at The Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators website) to check you have the ability to see it through.

Assuming all is well, then decide if you want to go for modular training or integrated training - an on going debate, but you must decide what suits you - speak to as many training schools as you can. I'm sure other people with more experience will be able to offer some pointers.

Where did you take your flying lesson? I see you live in Hatfield (I live in St. Albans). Elstree is not too far (where I'm flying from at the mo), and I know Cabair operate some helicopters from there - might be worth checking out.

As for sponsorship, I don't know of any, and I don't think you'll have any luck in the present climate - someone else might know of something though.

All the Best,

TCM

virgin

22nd Apr 2002, 21:27

I'd agree with the very helpful post above with only one exception.
HeliAir at Denham is probably not much further from you. I think you'll find it cheaper than Cabair, and they have a far better reputation.
Good luck!

t'aint natural

22nd Apr 2002, 22:23

I think there's not much to choose between Heli-Air and Cabair or any other -air, and even if there's a few pounds in it, go where you feel comfortable and they treat you well. Be demanding. You're the paying customer. Never pay a penny piece for anything up front, and if you don't like what you're getting, go somewhere else.
As stated above, get a medical first. I knew of a student who, despite urging, flew 17 hours before getting a medical, only to find she was diabetic. And yes, fly several hours before making a decision. Don't burn any bridges in the first flush of excitement.
Above all, know what you're getting yourself into. You'll pay a hell of a lot of money and work like crazy for years to get into a profession which offers little security, and even if you are moderately successful in it you will never be paid more than average wages. You've got to know you're going to love it for the whole of your life, because training for aviation means not training for anything else.
If you have the slightest doubt, go and be a lawyer or a doctor or an orthodontist or start a good business, then buy a helicopter and pay some mug to fly it around for you.

Devil 49

23rd Apr 2002, 10:26

IF you decide to pursue helo flight, DON'T choose your training by price. You fly as you've been trained to fly,and (usually) you're alone at the controls. Build your experience base on a sound foundation and it will prove a bargain in the long run.

The major "scholarship" pogram in the U.S. is provided by the military. Costs/benefits have to be a seperate issue, if one is considering that option.

Heliport

23rd Apr 2002, 13:09

I agree it's a mistake to go by price alone. On the other hand, more expensive doesn't necessarily mean better.
In fairness to Virgin, he wasn't suggesting HeliAir at Denham just because it's probably cheaper, but because it has a good reputation. I don't think any one who reads this forum regularly could disagree that HeliAir at Denham and at Wellesbourn always score highly in discussions when flight schools are discussed. Their other bases don't get mentioned so often.

Jof
A word of warning.
Experience shows that some people tend to recommend where they trained, or where they instruct. Take lots of soundings, a trial flight or two, and see what you think yourself.

Good luck whatever you decide - keep us posted.

Flying Dutchie

23rd Apr 2002, 13:59

Hi,

I'm flying in Holland and recently finished my CPL (H) training. Finnally I now have my (dutch) CPL (H).

Indeed you should get a Medical and check out where you want to fly, but don't underestimate the theoretical part!

In Holland you need to pass for at least the CPL (H) theory, but if you want to join a big operator, you need to have passed for the ATPL (H) theory.

I saw a couple of enthusiasts begin with flying and the theory course. Some of them weren't able to pass for the theory, resulting in a big loan and a PPL with 50 hours of flight time, but no chance to obtain a CPL...

Check out how this works in the UK, and be honest to yourself, to determine if you're able to pass for the theory bit.

Good Luck!
Flying Dutchie.

RW-1

23rd Apr 2002, 17:23

Experience shows that some people tend to recommend where they trained, or where they instruct. Take lots of soundings, a trial flight or two, and see what you think yourself.

Absolutely!

although I always recommend where I fly / Train, i tell people to look around for themselves before moving to fly / train.

I myself took a week down here to look at several operators, even though I kinda knew I would like Volar. You NEVER make a decision on training without at least visiting the place in question first.

Bell427

25th Apr 2002, 06:26

i would like to ask you somethink on this topics theme...

I'm 16 years old and in the january 2003 i will go in flight scool and hopefuly become motor-sport-pilot.
Here in slovenia you could then fly,helicopters or aircraft(with some extra studying for helicopters).
so i am asking you...witch ist the best helo to start flight training for helicopters on it?
we are small country so we only have these private helos:
r-22
EC-120
AS-350
SA-342 Gazelle
ENSTROM-....
...and on witch helos your pilots in yours country are having their first flights?

Off road

25th Apr 2002, 09:30

Hi Jof,

I go along with most comments above but what I still miss and what is often overlooked ( I think with most of these questions like yours) in most cases is:

What are you going to do once you have obtained your CPL(H) and spent lots of money with only approx. 150 hrs in your logbook??
AND subsequently how are you going to bridge the time from obtaining your licence to becoming anywhere remotely employable, say with approx. 1000hrs... AND how long do you estimate that is going to take you??

I think these questions are also very relevant to consider.

All the best
Off road:)

Heliport

25th Apr 2002, 10:03

Off road

So, what advice/tips would you give on hours building, as someone who has done it? (In recent years?)

Draco

25th Apr 2002, 12:02

Have you considered the military option?

they pay you to learn, you get some excellent training in good machines.... and lots of hours.

there are probably lots of pitfalls in the military approach too, like having to go to places you may not like and minor things like being shot at.

there have been several threads on this option, I suggest that you search the forum. depends on age, too, as over approx 26 you are too old.

R

Bell427

25th Apr 2002, 12:35

i consider that,my father is also military helicopter pilot on B-206 and Bell 412. But i can apply for that when i will be on universe.
but i'm confused if they will acsept me,cause from 300 appled they only took 15. and it happens only in three years.
plus that im consernd about my health. if my eye-sight is not good will they acsept me?(my dioptry is -1 ; -0,5)

Whirlybird

25th Apr 2002, 23:51

Jof,

To get down to basics, if you want a JAR CPL(H) you will need:
1) PPL(H) - minimum of 45 hours, takes most people a bit longer.
2) Build hours to 155 hours.
3) CPL ground exams. I did the old National ones, so I'm not sure about the details of the JAR ones, but it's a lot of theoretical work, and at least some formal ground school required. A lot of the stuff you'll learn is not that relevant, and a lot of it is quite tough going and hard on the memory.
4) 30 hour (minimum) CPL(H) flying course, plus 5 hours for a night rating.
5) Skills Test.

This is the modular course; I don't know about anything else. If you do the above, which will cost you around 30,000 pounds at least, you will have a CPL(H). Great! Except no-one will employ you with a CPL and 185 hours. You then have some choices. You used to be able to apply for the North Sea oil companies, who'd probably pay for you to get an instrument rating, and then employ you. Since Sept 11th, they want you to pay for your own instrument rating - approx 23,000 I hear. Or you can somehow get to 300 hours and then do an instructors course, and hope that'll give you some work and a chance to build hours. That's what I'm doing, but there's no guarantee of work at the end of it.

There are other options, like going to the US, either to get a FAA CPL, as some people do, or doing some training/hours building here where it's cheaper (that's what I'm doing right now). But check carefully if you want to live in the UK; the CAA won't count a lot of it.

I'm in no way trying to put you off. I think heli flying is absolutely wonderful, and it's changed my life. But I had a means of earning my living anyway, and then inherited enough money to fund most of my training, and if it doesn't lead to a job, I don't mind too much. Go into this with your eyes open. I've seen too many people go to flying schools, get caught up in the heli training atmosphere of have fun today and to hell with tomorrow; they borrow tens of thousands with no thought of what happens if they don't get a job. Some of those are instructing part time and trying to pay off huge debts and somewhat disillusioned; I know some of them. It isn't worth it. Maybe better to get a decent career and fly for fun, or get some funding behind you and then do the helicopter training.

But if in spite of all I've said you decide to go for it, first do lots of research, and good luck. Flying helicopters really really is lots of fun.

Off road

26th Apr 2002, 11:37

HELIPORT,

Unfortunately I do not have the answer and nor has anyone else.
The lenght of time between obtaining a CPL(H) licence and finding a position is highly variable and it is very difficult to estimate and in my opinion comes down to getting a lucky break somewhere from someone. This is not a problem if you are in it for the longhaul and have lots of patience and in the case you are married an understanding wife who has lots of patience as well.
I do not think that upcoming heli pilots realise how difficult it is to actually find a position once they get their licence.
I have had the same problem it has taken me 6 years to get full time flying employment and I travelled halfway around the world to finally get one.
I do not want to be pessimistic but rather tell the facts how I think they are.
Safe flying
:)

Roofus

26th Apr 2002, 17:02

Just a quick note!

Cabair!

I did my licences with them after I left the Navy.

The Helo instructor himself was top notch.

The company was terrible!

Obviously each to their own, but I wouldn't go to them if it were me!

Look around & find what best suits you.

t'aint natural

27th Apr 2002, 22:40

If Cabair is so bad, how come they're still in business when so many others have fallen by the wayside? I've hardly seen a good word about them on this forum, so it can't be word of mouth.

Devil 49

28th Apr 2002, 04:29

The type of helo used for your flight training is not particularly important. I can't tell who trained on what type by the time they're experienced professionals-or serious amateurs, for that matter.

Quality of instruction is everything. Big, formal school or one guy with access to a helo-a serious student and a knowledgeable professional instructor who's available and compatible, is the successful combination you want to make. Advanage big school-if you and the instructor don't click for whatever reason (it happens), you may be able to switch without starting the hunt again.

You'll learn a lot after the course is complete. You'll understand more, and more quickly with good basic instruction-not to mention surviving the first 1,000 hours because you were well taught.

Off road

29th Apr 2002, 08:05

Hi Folks,

Well we have quite a number of pilots on this forum now and more and more wannabees and starters joining this forum I thought it maybe prudent to give an insight to these W's and S's to tell them what really happens once you've obtained your licence.

How long did it take you to become full time employed after you got your licence?
How many hours did you have when you became employed?
In what field did you work when you started flying?
What endorsements did you hold?

Feel free to add other questions to this as you answer.

I know there are (ex)military pilots amongst us well,and although they started off in a different way than most commercially trained pilots, I would still appreciate their comments as well.

Thanking you for the input in advance.
Safe flying:)
Off road

EESDL

29th Apr 2002, 12:04

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, wife nagging, make sure that, prior to forking out the dosh, you can pass all the medical requirements!
Good luck, enjoy.

407 Driver

29th Apr 2002, 13:36

At the time I completed my Commercial Helicopter licence, I was employed as a licenced Engineer (AME-R) with OKanagan Helicopters in Vancouver BC. I still had to work a further YEAR on the ground before getting a shot at a flying seat.

Rotorbike

1st May 2002, 07:11

FAA Commercial gained on 15th December.

Home for Christmas and weather like you wouldn't believe through Jan, Feb and March.

Instrument Instructor 6th April.

Employed 22nd April.

Same State different company, Instructing.

200 hours total.

Personal opinion is get every rating out there and then bang on doors. I choose the telephone directory, spent a few days in the library researching, then calling. Just got lucky and found an empty hole.

Seven years ago with three months unemployed since.

w_ocker

1st May 2002, 08:13

I had about 1300 turbine before I got a CPL... but then again, I am in the military:D :D

RW-1

1st May 2002, 15:01

I'm buildin, I'm buildin ..... Com aquired last month, the 15th :)

RW-1 Flight time donations are being accepted however, email for details and tax cut benefits :D

HeloTeacher

1st May 2002, 16:51

Applied to Canadian Military:
18 months waiting and trying to get in.

Wings traing:
took 3 1/2 years to get to wings.

Operational:
5 years of flying and desk work to get about 1250 total hours (included the wings training)

Commercial licence:
used holidays to get it and get a little contract work
took 6 months to find 1st civil job

Nothing but work and fun ince then, now in Africa...

Nigel Osborn

2nd May 2002, 02:46

Good question. I learnt to fly helicopters in the Royal Navy in 1962 as I wanted to be paid well while gaining good experience. Also in those days there were very few civil trained pilots or schools. After 5 great years I left the RN with 1500 hours, 1100 on twins, IR, night time and one year instructing in the UK, Middle and Far East on 2 carriers. I got my first job in Australia by sending a telegram ( sounds very old!! ) Since then I have picked up 9 country's licences or validations and flown all over, between the Shetlands and the Antarctic in 20 different types and even had 5 years in ATC!! Jobs used to be easy in the 60s and 70s but now there only seems to be jobs for experienced pilots as I still get offered work. Unfortunately except in Australia, most countries think you have one foot in the grave when over 60, so these days in semi retirement I just fly a Squirrel on beach patrols a few days per month.
For wannabees I strongly recommend learning in one of the services as borrowing money to pay someone else with not much more experience than yourself is really doing it tough. If you have no choice for whatever reason, go for it but make sure you don't end up with 3000+ hours P2 and only 30 hours P1.

SFIM

2nd May 2002, 13:37

hey,

took about a year to get my instructor rating after i got my PPL (the old self improver route) spent almost 3 years instructing,
(got my CPL after 2 years of instructing) before I got my big break on the north sea last year, a lot of the old instructors seemed to get hoovered up at the same time as I did and luckily we got our IR's sponsored.

now that I am there it is nice to have a regular job with proper time off and good pay, whereas the instructing world was very hard work for at best moderate earnings.

I know where I would rather be !, but as Woolf said things can change v.fast.

Off road

6th May 2002, 09:47

Fellow rotorheads,

I have counted 8 replies sofar.

There surely must be ( I hope anyway) more than 8 pilots on this forum????
Or are the remaining flyers all military or were they all extremely lucky in getting a position as soon as they got there CPL(H) papers or possibly still hunting for that first full time position?

Best regards
Off road
:)

Bungraman

8th May 2002, 07:32

:confused: I'm one of the unfortunate helo drivers who has never yet seen the "light at the end of the tunnel". Holding a (AUS) CPLH (and frozen ATPH) for the last 5 years. Knocked on doors all around Oz for 18 months refusals galore (not enough experience), picked up some slave work (unpaid) sweeping a hanger floor for 12 months, time to move into that seat position ....... screwed by the operator!!!
Whoever says "Australia is the land of opportunity" get a closer look.
Hugh investment wasted, Australian outlook bleek..... :(

Garcia

28th May 2002, 00:58

I am 24 years old and really want to start flying helis as soon as I get a Student Loan. I am also looking for some answers and advice. Like I have learned at other forums some of you pilots sound a little oh :mad: . I assure you this letter that I am posting is legit. I know the market for heli pilots isn't the best right now but I hope the Unions in the near future will change that. I am looking at two schools Volar and Heliflight both in Ft. Lauderdale. I currently live in Miami. Any insights on these schools or suggestions on others is greatly appreciated. I also would like to know what the physical that you have to pass for the FAA consists of? I would like any replies to this post Positive or Negative. You pilots are the ones that have gone through it and are going through it. I believe that any answers and advice that you give will be much more valuable than what the flight schools tell me. Thanks in advance. Herby

RotorSEC

28th May 2002, 02:48

Well I really cant help with all of your questions because I am just starting out myself. But as for the physical, its quite easy. I got my Second Class med certificate which consists of:
eye check (eye sight must be correctable to 20/20),
hearing check (a joke...the lady talked quietly to me for that test)
pee in a cup (only tests to see if your a diabetic or not..If you are, you cant be a pilot), and turn your head and cough. Pretty simple...Well anyways..I am the one who replied to you on JustHelicopters. Youll find there isnt much for bickering on here. Just happy pilots who will give you good info. Anyways..talk to you later
Scott

B Sousa

28th May 2002, 02:52

Another school near you www.heli.com

And Now you asked for it.....OK, 24 years Old, heres a suggestion. Get your College degree in a field that pays a lot of money.
Get a job with a big company that has an aviation department. Then fly around with the company pilot who will be busting his ass all day long making one third of what you are. Then if you like it, get back to me.
Some will ,no doubt, jump on me saying money is not everything, but they are also the ones I see daily, who are working seasonal jobs, no retirement in site, and nothing to fund them if they do retire. Its not an easy world for sure and certainly not all the glamour you may think.
Back to your original question. I would suggest you get your fixed wing ratings first and then get a helicopter add-on. (Much Cheaper) If you enjoy that, then you can get your CFI and starve a few years until you have enough flight time to starve a little better on the job...
Im not painting a bright picture for sure, but as I have been doing this for over 32 years I think I have seen the dark side. Yes some out there are successful, but not the majority. Im hoping that after you get your ratings you will stick with fixed wing, your chances for financial stability are better.
After reading this, if you have a degree, your single and still are frothing to fly helicopters...I would strongly suggest the Military. Training is excellent, the price is right and they pay you. They also own you for a few years, but at 24 it wont matter...

Good Luck

Garcia

28th May 2002, 16:09

Are you suggesting to get a Commercial Pilots Liscence then a helicopter add-on?

bliptune

28th May 2002, 16:41

Garcia I'm at the same age and also have experience in the tech industry which is hit pretty hard now. Thankfully I have family that will support me with either furthering my education and going through the helicopter training process if I become convinced of it. I ran my own business for a few years and cut my college education short temporarily because of that but I may return to the tech industry in the future or pursue helicopters as a possible profession.. at the moment helicopters seem like the one area where I can essentially be guaranteed employment as an instructor in the coming years doing something I would love, which can't really be said about most other jobs out there :)

nikki

1st Jun 2002, 02:32

Hey,

I took my training at volar and enjoyed it alot. I consider taking my training at heliflight but after talking with them on the phone a few times I felt my dollar would be better spent at volar.
I felt that I was going to be just a another sucker helping to pay heliflights rent. If your going to pay a ton of cash for training you should be getting great service and as well as training. I didn't feel I would be getting that at heliflight.

Keep in mind that this was just my experience/feeling from a few phone calls. I'm sure they are a quality outfit.
I just chose the not to go there and chose to help volar pay their rent instead. :)

good luck to you.

:D

Garcia

1st Jun 2002, 03:01

Well you failed to mention how was your training? Are you working now as a pilot? What type of training did you get?
Thanks for your reply and I visted both schools today. The problem that I saw with Volar was that I could not get a Student Loan thru Sallie Mae w/ them. Only with Heliflight.

nikki

1st Jun 2002, 22:03

Garcia,

My training was great. I had a good time doing it.
As for working as a pilot, I'm not. I just do it as a hobby and a fun hobby it is. :)

have fun and be safe.

:)

paco

2nd Jun 2002, 00:27

Good luck, but Unions won't change anything. As long as there are people willing to work for nothing to gain experience, nobody wins. I'm not blaming them, I went the other way to go writing, but it's the truth, nonetheless.

Again, good luck - if it's really what you want to do, but BSousa got it about right.

Phil

Devil 49

2nd Jun 2002, 13:47

Getting your ratings is only the first and a small step on a long path (Get the best training you can find, anywhere-survival counts too). The next step is the killer-the first flying job. Plan and expect to spend YEARS chasing hours, before you're widely employable. You crack that nut with somewhere between one thousand and fifteen hundred hours...

Good bet-get your CFI at a school that hires it's own graduates.
Better bet-have your first position staked out and sold on you in particular, now.
Sure winner-never quit giving a 100 per cent, and you can't even spell "discouraged".

Meurig

11th Jun 2002, 13:13

I'm not entirely sure if this is the right forum to place this message, but I feel this forum is more relevant considering I am seriously interested in becoming a helicopter pilot.
I'm 16 years old and having just sat and hopefully (don't want to take anything for granted just yet :) ) passed my A/S exams I now have to consider my next step post A-levels.
I went solo in a glider last December and I have accumulated 12 solo flights to date (the weather being so miserable and changeable, I've been severely restricted). What I'd like to know is what is best option for becoming a helo pilot, is the military the way forward (I understand you have to be an officer first) or is it best to self-fund my pilot training, although I imagine this would be significantly more than fixed wing training.
If the latter is the case, what qualification/license would I need to attain and what is the score on the job-market in this field of aviation - its pretty grim for airlines?

Also - would if be best for me to get a degree first?

All the best

Meurig

Heliport

11th Jun 2002, 14:18

Meurig
It is the right forum. This question is asked quite frequently and, if you use the 'Search' function at the top of the page, you'll find some useful information.
I've done a quick search to start you off, and found the following threads which I think will help you.
Just click on the title, and you'll be taken straight to the topic.

Becoming a helicopter pilot (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20129&referrerid=30158)
Helicopter Pilot? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=50834&referrerid=30158)
British v American approach to Flying Training (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20158&referrerid=30158)

I suggest you continue searching on 'Rotorheads', and then try the same exercise in the 'Wanabees' forum.
You're very welcome to come back with any questions you still have when you've finished searching.

Irlandés

11th Jun 2002, 14:41

Hi Meurig,
I'm not too familiar with this website yet, but at first glance I think the 'Wannabes' forum might get you some answers but I'm open to correction on that.

I can give you a little advice but bear in mind that I'm still working on my own CPL (H) so I don't know this business very well yet. Getting into the helicopter business is not easy. It takes blind faith, determination, lots of money, and no small amount of luck. My experience in life is that if you have determination covered, everything else will fall into place. A lot depends on just how badly you want it.

Obviously, getting somebody else to pay for your training is the best bet. If you're not ideologically opposed to a military lifestyle, then get in touch with them for information on that avenue. A degree is not a prerequisite for flying helicopters but you'll find that a lot of people who fund their own training have come from other professions first, in order to make that necessary money. Often they've decided later on in life that they wanted to hand-in the mouse for a cyclic. Since I've started training, I've met tons of helicopter pilots (no girls yet unfortunately :confused: ) and they all come from different backgrounds whether it be engineers, police, bus drivers, plumbers, mechanics, or just straight in.

I won't go into much more detail as I'm sure there are people far more qualified to advise you than I. All I will say is though, if you have a dream, go for it. Dreams have a funny way of becoming reality when you put your mind to it.

And I'll finish with an anecdote. There was this helicopter pilot who on being asked for advice by hopeful youngsters on whether or not they should become pilots, he advised them not to, saying (quite truthfully) that it was very expensive, difficult to find work etc etc knowing full well that those who were really determined to become pilots weren't going to listen to him anyway.

Where there's a will (and a class 1 medical), there's a way.

Best of luck!
Irlandés

P.S. If you haven't already read them try reading Richard Bach's 'A Gift of Wings' and 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull'. If you have a love for flying, you'll get a lot out of them.

Meurig

11th Jun 2002, 17:06

Thanks very much for the replies!.............I had a look at the threads you gave me, thank you very much for your effort there, however it all looks pretty grim.

I am applying for the RAF (pilot Scholarship) at the moment, in fact I shall be attending OASC Cranwell at the end of August. The only problem is that I could be rejected on the grounds of not having Officer potential or the like, the military seem to (from my experience) want your desire to become an Officer to precede being a pilot (which is merely your branch choice), which I suppose I can understand.

Although one thing, I didn't see much on the threads about Helo operators such Bond or Bristow, which I understand are big North Sea operators (correct me if I'm wrong). Does anyone know what their requirements are? Is it CPL(H) or do they want the full ATPL and Instrument Rating as well.......I suppose this is difficult to ask as requirement presumably fluctuate a great deal.

Cheers again
Meurig

PS irlandes - do you think its worth in that case doing an aerospace engineering degree and working as an Engineer for a large company or an MOD sub-contractor.
I mean I'd enjoy that as a subject although I've heard that its a lot of work, and I should be able to get the grades to do that course in Uni.

NigD

11th Jun 2002, 17:49

Meurig

Like yourself I considered the RAF and was put off by the "officer first, pilot second" view from RAF Biggin Hill OASC. I have often looked back (I'm now 31) and wondered if I wasn't being naive/short sighted in not pursuing that option and putting up with stuffy officer protocol (learning how to squash peas on the back of ones fork so as not to embarass oneself at dinner, didn't appeal to an 20yr old straight from a 2yr booze up at polytechinc).
If you want to fly that much go for the RAF/Navy/Army, if I had had a crystal ball I would have gone for the RAF, simply because of the flying training, the opportunites to travel the world and the type of machines you get to fly.
I'm now a self employed contract avionics design engineer on corporate jets and earn a good wage but still struggle to fly as much as I want to especially as I want my CPL(H) eventually.
The point you put about aeronautical engineering is a good one as my line of work interfacing avionics such as EGPWS, TCAS, FMSs, RVSM (definately not for helis) SSRs etc gives me an inciteful view as to how the systems interact and not just how to operate them (this will help in the CPL/ATPL ground exams).

Hope this is some help

Good luck

NigD

Pete O'Tewbe

11th Jun 2002, 17:53

Meurig

The majority of pilots in the Army Air Corps are not officers. If the military lifestyle appeals, but you or others feel that you are not officer material, they are certainly worth a look. The downside, however, is that you would hve to spend some time (4 years?) on the ground before commencing flying training.

Bon chance!

Irlandés

11th Jun 2002, 23:10

Meurig,
as for doing a degree, I would be reluctant to advise you on what to study. Bear in mind, that if the flying doesn't work out, then aerospace engineerig would be your career. If you like it, that's fine but to get through it and especially be good at it, you will have to like it.

If you are determined to be a pilot then obviously an aerospace background is going to be alot more useful than say an accounting degree. I have a mechanical engineering background and I find that it makes all those complex aerodynamics and numbers much easier for me. That said, there are plenty of guys out there who might struggle with the numbers, but who nevertheless make good instinctive pilots, whereas I'd be too busy with my sliderule to notice big, bad mountain coming up. ;)

As for Bristow, I talked to them about six months ago before I started training. I believe they have a scholarship scheme. You need a PPL (H) and a class 1 medical to be eligible but I also believe they have hundreds of applications for very few places. If you're already qualified I think they ask for a CPL (H) and an IFR rating (not cheap!). Go to their website (www.bristowtraining.com) and send them an email. They told me to basically go away and try the self-improvement route.

Hope that helps,
Irlandés

Nick Lappos

12th Jun 2002, 01:17

I wouldn't be too thrown off about the Officer and Gentlemen thing, Meurig. I just had the privilege of attending a mess at an RAF base where the solemn black tie was fairly quickly replaced by a tall glass of whiskey, and the sight several very senior Officers (those left standing) blasting cannon balls out of improvised guns at targets across the room.

These fellows (rumor has it it was a helicopter squadron based in Cornwall....) were the absolute life of the party, and there was not a stuffed shirt in the bunch.

Meurig, don't sell yourself short. Go for the education, become an officer, get the best flight training on the planet, fly the biggest, most expensive hardware imaginable, have adventures across the globe, and then when you are old and bald, tell the world you DID IT!

I joined the US Army at 19 years old, and have had not one regret at all, period. Reach for it all, if you think you might want something, jump to it with both feet. Too many folks work for the Gas Company, filling Out Baskets with paper. Don't be one of them. The folks who hang around this web site are pilots who fly across deserts and seas, through ice and fog, and they, to a person, got there by grabbing the ring as it passed by.

w_ocker

12th Jun 2002, 07:57

Here here Nick!!
Go for it mate. Dont look for excuses to not even have a bash. What is there to lose? I echo Nick's sentiment (even with nowhere near the benefit of his experience - yet). I dont regret it one little bit and I'm madly squirreling away all these great experiences for a time when the memories might be all
I have.

Good luck!

paco

12th Jun 2002, 10:39

If you want to fly helicopters that much, then being a crab :) is a small price to pay! I was in the Army myself, and took a short cut, by joining what is now the Really Lovely Corps and transferring across, as in those days the AAC were short-staffed (nobody over 5 foot high). They probably still are, but a lot of people found that joining the AAC direct was the s-l-o-w way to do it, although there is a risk they will send you back to counting socks.

Just ignore anyone who is a stuffed shirt in and out of the mess, and you can spot them outside because their hat looks new.

Good luck!

Phil

Rotorbike

12th Jun 2002, 18:17

I really can't argue with any of the 'Go Military' posters as at your age it would be the best career move.

But should you not succeed and decide to throw vast quantities of your and other peoples money at aviation would like to argue that a helicopter licence isn't more than a fixed wing one. It is a common mistake that many make.

Yes, it is more to fly a helicopter per hour than a comparable airplane but the Commercial licence for helicopters is issued with less flight hours than airplanes. So as a result they both cost about the same. OK you may only have a VFR Commercial helicopter licence against an IFR fixed wing one. But you are equally employable after completing your licence.

Looking at one of the large UK schools that have Helicopters and Airplanes the cost of the Integrated Commercial licences are 41,125 against 47,235. A rather large win in favour of Helicopters.

Which once you start getting paid a salary will be quickly eaten into as fixed wing pilots do seem to get paid more :(

robpowell69

28th Jun 2002, 00:08

So far ive learnt a lot about becoming a fixed wing pilot/ airline pilot from the wannabes section and have found the info quite extensive. However i would like to know all the ins and outs about becoming a helicopter pilot.

Basicaly i want to know ;
1) How much does it cost to become employable
2) What are the different sort of career paths within helicopter flying
3) What sort of pay is involved
4) does the fixed wing ppl count towards the helicopter training at all

Are there any good books about that could explain all the possibilities and options available, Any good websites other than pprune?

I apologise for the general nature of this post but i am eager for info

Any advice much apreciated

paco

28th Jun 2002, 01:47

Just getting your licence is not enough - you need hours on top, and quality hours at that. One solution (thinking out of the box), if you had the kind of money needed burning a hole in your pocket, is to buy your own helicopter, fly your ar$e off and sell it afterwards, having obtained a PPL first, of course. You can self-study for the CPL exams (In Canada and USA, you would need a recommendation from an instructor first).

Not so sure about JARs, but they keep changing anyway. Whatever you do, get a class 1 medical first, as all the training in the world is useless without it. If I think of anything else I will edit this message. Good luck!

Message to mods: Could we have a FAQ section where this sort of basic question could be answered? I would be happy to contribute something!

phil

buttline

28th Jun 2002, 05:00

rob,

The only operators I'm aware of that will hire you straight after your CPL are the North Sea Operators - though they have a lot of guys on their books right now so don't count it.

You can count up to 100hrs of your helicopter P1 time towards the 150hr requirement of a CPL(A). I suspect it's less the other way around but don't know. Theory exams wise, it's 3 extra to go from ATPL(H) to ATPL(A) and 1 in the other direction. That will change when they eventually create the bridging exams.

Most people probably instruct after the CPL(H). You need 300h before you can do the JAA FI course - pay is then around 40-50 gbp per hour from what I've seen.

You can become an FAA instructor (with a 2 year J1 visa) with about 150 hrs but most U.S. schools don't hire with less than 200hrs. Pay is around 15-35 usd per hour. In the busy schools you can get 700hrs or more a year.

Costs wise - about $50k USD full time - check out OATS and Helicopter Adventures

Hope that helps

SFIM

28th Jun 2002, 09:37

following on from the point paco made about FAQ for this type of question, a basis from which to start (at least in the UK anyway) may be something like this (copyright permitting)

http://www.bhab.demon.co.uk/helicopter_pilot.htm

what do the powers that be think?

Heliport

28th Jun 2002, 13:20

Rob

I'm not trying to deter people from answering your questions - far from it. But you'll find a lot of the information you need if you do a 'Search' of previous topics on this forum. People often miss it - look at the top line where there are a list of links starting with 'user cp'.
As Paco says, it's one of the FAQs.
Probably the most frequently asked question.

In a nutshell, the advice most commonly given on this forum is -

Obtaining your professional licence and building enough hours to get a job costs a fortune - consider the military route where you'll get outstanding training all paid for. It's not easy to get in because the competition and standards required are very high, but most things in life worth doing involve a challenge.

Sponsorship in the civvy world for your basic licence is virtually non-existent.

The pay isn't as good as flying a 747 for BA, but the enjoyment and freedom of being a professional helicopter pilot makes up for a lot.

Hit the 'Search' button and see how you get on.
Good Luck.

Heliport

1st Jul 2002, 20:24

I've split the thread the 'Would you do it again?' aspect deserves its own thread.
Please post any advice to our Wannabee here, and posts about whether you'd do it again on the new thread.
Thanks

Heli-boy

27th Jul 2002, 10:02

Hi,
Can anyone give me some advice as to where to get the best CPL(H) training?
I am considering training overseas and am contemplating
Heli-College in Canada and Choppers in South Africa.
Heli-College seems very professional and has comprehensive ground training. Still enquiring about Choppers.
They are cheaper and you do get more flying hours to the pound.
Would appreciate any advice!
Heli-boy

:(

Dick Mitten

27th Jul 2002, 15:41

I trained at Heli-College. The flight instructor was kind, thoughtful, thorough, and very professional. I hope to be emulating some of his approach to flying. The ground school was also very comprehensive, and their computer-based study method was EXCELLENT preparation for the Transport Canada written test. Machines are clean and well maintained.

That said, I'm not sure that it wouldn't have been better to train at a "company school". The year I trained Vancouver Island Helicopters hired all 10/11 of it's students. Mind you, it sounds like they didn't get rehired the next year... Great Slave Helicopters in Yellowknife also does some hiring of it's students. Mind you, both these outfits operate turbines only, and there's just about zero chance that they'll put a 100hr pilot in the right-hand seat.

Make sure you get trained on a robbie, not a 47. That way you'll be better prepared for your first job.

Best of luck!

discobeast

29th Jul 2002, 03:15

hi there!

i trained at helibip/the helicopter people in south africa. they are based in JHB. great instructors, great weather, well maintained machines and safety always comes first.
...they do training in robbies

please contact me if you need more info.....

Heli-boy

29th Jul 2002, 09:25

Thank you everyone for your advice.

discobeast

29th Jul 2002, 20:41

why did you edit my post heliport? i all i did was put in approx. prices. i actually copied the details from a thread i had replied to earlier in begining june somewhere. the post was called "hour building in SA" you didn't do anything to the thread then. why suddenly now?

thanks.....:)

Mojoman

1st Aug 2002, 10:23

Hi

I am thinking of taking my PPL in SA as it appears to be cheaper than elsewhere. Can anybody recommend a good training school out there? I have heard Helibap and NAC are good!

If that goes well I may look to take the JAA CPL (UK) when I get back home but understand that you can not apply for the course until you have 150 hrs. I am sure that this is one of those annoying FAQ's but can anyone tell me the alternatives available aside from just buying an extra 100 hours as to how I can raise my hours to that level.....

Any info much appreciated.

Thx

B Sousa

1st Aug 2002, 12:28

You might want to post this on African Aviation. Better chance to get some local input.

ClearBlueWater

1st Aug 2002, 14:33

Once you've got the PPL you have to build to 155 hours, including 100 P1, before you can do the CPL flying course, which is another 30 hours. You also need 5 night hours. Not sure if these can be included in the 155 but they are generally tagged on to the end of the 30 hour CPL course. Before you do the CPL flying course you will need to complete the theory exams.

Building from PPL to CPL generally requires you buy the hours. I don't know of anyone who had them paid for! In Europe, and probably most other places, you'll be lucky to get a job with a raw CPL. Most people go on to become an instructor which requires 300 hours under JAA. You'll most likely have to pay for every hour up to that point.

You mention a JAA CPL (UK). You will do the JAA theory exams and the JAA flying course and therefore receive an unrestricted JAA CPL (H) eligible for use in all JAA member states. I believe the UK restricted version, JAA CPL (H) (R), applies only to those who did the CAA national exams during the transition period between CAA and JAA systems when the JAA theory was not available but the JAA flying course had already replaced the CAA flying course.

Good luck.

discobeast

2nd Aug 2002, 02:29

hi there.

i trained at helibip/the helicopter people in south africa. they are based in JHB. great instructors, great weather, well maintained machines and safety always comes first.
...they do training in robbies

could have posted the rates but i am not allowed..:D

...but you can view them on another thread called "Hourbuilding in SA" here on Rotorheads somewhere ;)

please contact me if you need more info.....

handyandyuk

31st Aug 2002, 18:10

Anyone out there have any pointers for those of us who want to end up as CPL(H) and eventually ATPL(H). It's damned expensive trying to pay for it yourself and no-one seems to want to help.:(

kissmysquirrel

31st Aug 2002, 21:42

been there. just done that. my advice is take the £50k+ and buy property instead.

paco

31st Aug 2002, 22:59

If you can afford the training, why would you want to work as a helicopter pilot?

Just curious

Phil

handyandyuk

1st Sep 2002, 00:26

and for those who have asked... if I could afford the training I wouldn't be asking. I'm lucky if I can get in an hour a month!

Irlandés

1st Sep 2002, 07:28

Handyandyuk,
it seems you're getting a bit of a ragging from the boys. Don't pay any attention. They're just trying to see if you're thick-skinned enough to be a helicopter pilot. From my own experience that's more important than either the medical, the money, or the will!! :D

The bottom line is there's no easy way in but it's all been said before in previous posts and you should find all the information you need to help give you a picture of the ins and outs of the industry. Do a search both here and in the Wanabees forum. The second bottom line is that if you really, really (I mean really, really) want to do it, and if you have a medical you'll find a way. If you don't find a way then you don't really, really (and I mean really, really) want to do it. ;)

Also I'm not sure if doing an hour a month is the best way of doing things. If I were you I'd save up for a few months and then do those few hours closer together, otherwise you'll spend each hour each month just trying to get back into the groove. That's just my opinion of course. Others may say differently.

Best of luck,
Irlandés

Decimal

1st Sep 2002, 09:46

...with as much information about the industry and various licences with authorities around the globe.

If you plan to do it here(UK) you WILL need a serious amount of dough and will have to do ATPL(H) (but that might change). I was lucky enough to release equity in my home to pay for my licence. That all seems easy now compared to finding a job in the industry - even ground crew! Now I`m selling the house to pay for more training/ratings. What I'm saying is, if you are serious you will do anything...absolutely anything to get there. Think about doing training abroad as its much cheaper and they do the CPL. But be prepared to find work abroad or spend more money to convert your licence to JAA and work in UK. Also, if you're of the right age and ilk consider the forces 'cos you`ll come out with ATPL and quite a few hours.

good luck

Decimal

soggyboxers

1st Sep 2002, 13:27

The only cheap way left, if you're prepared to give up a few years of personal freedom and if you're qualified, is the military route. It's actually not too bad a way of getting there; you get a very thorough training and I hear the pay is pretty good too these days. As a bonus, you may be lucky and get to see some of the world as well. The downside is that you don't usually get to fly very much compared with a civilian job (though much of the flying you do may be more interesting) and you may get shot at (but that's also true of quite a few civilian jobs I've had in some of the more dangerous third world countries!). After, say 10 years you should have your ATPL(H) and have enough useful experience to get a job with one of the big three companies or maybe get into police/EMS operations.

handyandyuk

1st Sep 2002, 14:38

Thanks guys, I have to admit this is really confirming a lot of things I've already heard. Looks like I'll be after a serious lottery win.
As far as the forces route goes, I've done 10 years regular and now 7 as a reserve. At 33 I'm a tad too old and I can't even consider TA as I didn't serve as a pilot.
For those who wondered, I've been shot at and almost blown up; it's not all it's cracked up to be :(

Still, thanks again guys (and girls, if there are any lumpyjumper helo pilots).

Whirlybird

1st Sep 2002, 15:17

Andy,

People are being exceptionally negative because this is a bad time in the helicopter industry, at least in the UK. After Sept 11th last year, laid-off duel qualified airline pilots went back to their North Sea helo jobs, the North Sea operators stopped taking on new CPL(H)s, so people stayed in their instructing jobs so no room there. Hence no jobs for newly qualified helo pilots. But that could all change by the time you get that far, although there's no guarantee of it.

As to training, if you enjoy helicopter flying, enough to spend all your money doing it, you could carry on and see what happens. But don't RELY on having a career at the end of it. It might make more sense to save your money and do a JAR PPL(H) in the US though, over a short period of time. After that you could fly and hour build when you can afford it, without forgetting as much in between as you're likely to at the beginning. There are various other ways, as people have been saying. But let's face it, from any logical, sensible point of view, spending a fortune to qualify as a helicopter pilot in the present economic climate is totally stupid. Most of us do it because we love it.

Good luck ( from one of the relatively few...er... "lumpyjumper helo pilots"; thanks for realising that we just might exist. ;) )

handyandyuk

1st Sep 2002, 22:12

Maybe I should clarify for those who are assuming I'm new to this flying stuff.... I already hold a PPL(H).
Given that no-one seems to want to employ me in my mechanical engineering role, I'm already using my fallback HGV licence (guaranteed work in the UK).
I'm looking to the area of about 5-7 years time, as I figure that's roughly how long it'll take to gain sufficient funds to undergo a CPL(H) course, whilst maintaining a degree of currency along the way.
I fly because I love it and the idea of being paid to enjoy myself sounds pretty damned good to me.

Changing the subject slightly, anyone know of a list of the 'aerobatic' manoeuvers that can safely be performed in a 22?

Irlandés

1st Sep 2002, 22:15

Whirlybird,
you're the first person in a year who has had the courage to say right to my face that what I'm doing is totally stupid. Thank God for that! I though I was in a minority in that thinking! :D

Handyandyuk,
as for aerobatic manoeuvers, I don't believe that teetering rotor systems take too kindly to them and anything that would be theoretically attempted would have to stay in the positive-g category. No, I don't think you'll find to many proponents of aerobatics in a Robbi although I have heard it was rolled inadvertently on at least one occasion. A student overcontrolled in turbulence sending her into a roll. The instructor was too slow to react and she (the Robbi) went all the way over. Just as well apparently as late intervention could have made things a lot worse.

Me, I'll just stick to straight and level and leave the fancy stuff to the astronauts! :D

Irlandés

P.S. I do admit though it would be interesting to hear from someone really in the know just what she is capable of. :rolleyes:

sierra-papa

2nd Sep 2002, 01:26

handyandyuk,
- the only LIST you get for the R22 is all the things you can/should NOT do. It's a great trainer, but certainly not an aircraft in which you would want to try your luck with aerobatic stunts. :eek:

- as for your chances with your further helo training: I am glad that the tone of the replies you got became more enthusiastic after the first 4. I personally started 4 years ago (age 32) and have had a job eversince my CPL. Besides striving to be the best pilot around (note: not the biggest macho) you need to know how to market yourself and connect with people in the industry. I think you got the best shot at all that in the US.

- as for female helicopter pilots like whirlybird: here in the US there is quite a number of them. Most of who have earned my respect through their solid performances. They are doing just as good a job at it as anybody else.

sp

handyandyuk

2nd Sep 2002, 12:04

Could it just be that here in UK we, having a smaller country geographically, make far less use of helicopters, thus creating fewer posts. Add to that the gentle supply of ex AAC, RAF and RN pilots with lovely MoD supplied licences to convert to ATPL's and a shedload of experience. The realistic chances for a non military pilot aren't too good.
I dare say when finance permits, I'll slide off to the US and crank up some cheaper hours like so many others before me. In simple terms it all comes down to cash (that I don't have :( )

Whirlybird

2nd Sep 2002, 12:05

I don't know exactly how it works in the US. But when I was in Long Beach in April, hourbuilding (and having lots of expensive fun :) ) low hours CPLs were getting work doing ferry flights and things like that. I know a young American woman who's now instructing, who said she's flown coast to coast in an R22 seven times! :eek: The first one she did for free, then she got expenses, then got paid. But who in the UK buys an R22 and then wants someone to fly it thousands of miles home for them? Just doesn't happen. Other people seemed to get a bit of freelance work, but when I tried phoning around here, soon after getting my CPL(H), one place told me it just wasn't worth it; he ended up spending too much on line checks etc, and it was more economic to have a couple of full time people. It doesn't seem to work that way in the US; people do bits and pieces and gradually build up hours and experience and credibility.

Anyway, I decided I'd be better off spending my time earning money, and getting more hours and an instructors rating. But now I gather that avenue's getting overcrowded too.

Irlandes, what I said was that we were stupid FROM ANY LOGICAL POINT OF VIEW. I don't regret doing it, not at all. It might work. And I'd rather have spent the money on helicopter flying than anything else I can think of. I want to know I gave it a try, not end up at 70 saying: "If only..." But I had the money - sort of anyway. Going into debt to do this isn't sensible in the UK at the present time.

S76Heavy

2nd Sep 2002, 12:06

As far as lady pilots are concerned (I know both RW and plank drivers), the only practical difference I noticed compared to the male pilots is their voices are much clearer over the R/T. More frequent as well..:D

ClearBlueWater

2nd Sep 2002, 15:32

Is anyone aware of statistics showing numbers of people who fly professionally on a CPL (H) versus number of CPL (H) awarded by the CAA? Or put another way proportionally how many people who get a UK or JAA CPL (H) never find a flying job? I get the impression that the odds may be worse in the UK than the US and elsewhere owing to the lack of opportunity in the UK to pick up relatively casual work to start with per Whirlybird's description.

HandyAndyUK, one thing is for certain there will never be an easy way to become a helo pilot. Given a fairly typical profile, when you're in your 20s you've got the time but you can't afford it. When you're in your 30s your wife (or other) and kids will demand some of your time, hamper mobility for that elusive first job and you still can't afford it without taking on enormous debt. In your 40s the kids need stability and moving to the bhundu for the first job is not a practical option, also you still can't afford it and you've got less time left to pay off the accumulated debt. In your 50s you're too old to get the first job (usually). In a nutshell it is not going to get any easier by waiting for tomorrow, if anything it just gets harder.

At the end of the day you'll never justify embarking on the venture from a reasoned position so it's not a decision for the head, it's a decision for the heart.

You don't regret what you've done only what you didn't do.

As ever you've got to be in to win.

Hezbollah

2nd Sep 2002, 20:18

Its not a bed of roses for military pilots either! I've got 2500 quality hours, plenty of twin turbine time, I'm a IRI/IRE, NVGI etc, and I havent managed to get as far as an interview for a job yet!
Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but if I had a couple of hundred hours in a Robbie, I wouldnt be expecting too much too soon.

Robbo Jock

2nd Sep 2002, 21:02

As a "dun the course, no job yet" (as are a fair few here) I'd just like to point out that ClearBlueWater is a little wrong in his age ranges. As far as I can tell, mid thirties is considered waaaaay toooooooooo old for a job. We (I have to admit, I'm no longer in my late thirties, though I was when I learnt this little nugget) are apparently totally incapable of learning anything new. This in spite of the fact that (if I may blow my own trumpet here) I averaged over 90% in my CAA CPL(H) AND ATPL(A) ground exams at the whoppingly-ancient age of 38.

It's not just personal pressures that are brought to bear on your availability for jobs, there seems to be a lot of "I was 19 when I started, I've got umpteen thousand hours, you obviously can't come up to my standard at my age, so I'm not employing you." Though of course, with a somewhat less jaundiced view of the world, it is actually very likely that there are a lot of younger bods out there that ARE more able to learn, are more flexible in location and, undoubtedly and probably most importantly, are cheap. :-)

In spite of my lack of success in persuading someone to pay for me to fly, I'm glad I did the course, and I've got the licence, so there's always that (faint) hope someone may find me worth the ever-escalating costs of employment. I'm just somewhat dismayed at the seemingly never-ending series of regulations that are making it more difficult for anyone to actually train and get a job here. Or even keep their licence and medical current.

Piper Warrior Pilot

28th Sep 2002, 20:37

Well, hello, my first time on the Rotorheads section.

I was just about to start my Fixed Wing PPL, got my student package etc.. and today i was offered a flight on a Jet Ranger. My very first time in a helicopter. Up until then i had not like helicopters and didnt appear to want anything to do with them but after today i had one word.......WOW.

Im almost positive i wanna do rotary training now..... im hooked, big time.

S76Heavy

28th Sep 2002, 21:25

Before you decide, please read as many threads here as you can. If you still feel that the helicopter lifestyle is the one for you, join the club.
If not, get a job with the airlines and fly helicopters for fun on your time off. But it sure is the best sort of flying I can think of (with tiltrotors being a possible exception).:cool:

Whirlybird

28th Sep 2002, 21:26

Yep, helicopters are the most addictive thing there is. They should come with a health warning - or maybe I mean a wealth warning. Welcome.

Steve76

28th Sep 2002, 21:44

The comparisons to a cocaine addiction are worth a thesis......:rolleyes:

handyandyuk

28th Sep 2002, 21:51

(stands up, turns and faces the Rotorheads)

'Hi.... I'm Andy and....... and I'm a helicopter pilot'...:o

'I can handle it.... I could stop if I wanted to...'

Whirlybird

29th Sep 2002, 10:32

S76,

Oooooo, tiltrotors sound like fun. Tell me about them!

teeteringhead

29th Sep 2002, 13:59

PWP
You'll have to change your handle now!

Don't spread the word too much - we do want to stay a bit exclusive. But it can't be beat. After 5000+ rotary hours I still get a buzz out of simply seeing the ground get further away through the chin window when I gently ease up on the collective.

And the "facilities" may be primitive - but you can always stop and go behind a bush..........;)

S76Heavy

29th Sep 2002, 14:41

Whirly, I'm afraid it's still wishful thinking on my part..:( But I'm young enough to hope to fly one commercially before I have to retire:D (and old enough to want to wait for the B-model..):rolleyes:

RW-1

1st Oct 2002, 17:47

Whirly's right!

I'm going to place image tags on my sites that say:

WARNING: Prolonged viewing / flying of this Helicopter may cause
light-headedness, sweaty palms, increased blood pressure, eye watering and an uncrontrollable urge to fly (sic: spend lots-o-$$$$)

:D

SASless

2nd Oct 2002, 00:21

Helicopter flying also contributes to alcohol abuse, sexual misconduct, marital infidelity, roids, curvature of the spine, bad posture, evil attitudes, sense of humor failures, skirt chasing, philandering, gambling, loss of self esteem, inflated egos, and premature baldness......that is my story and I am sticking to it! After all, we cannot all be farmer's sons!:rolleyes:

crashresidue

2nd Oct 2002, 03:48

DUHHHHH - and the "down side" of this IS?

Welcome to the "land of rotor rubble"! It's a glorious life, and if you have/find the right kind of woman - it gets even better!

I'm on my third wife (20 years, this October) and I wouldn't trade one minute of what I do for any other kind of life that this world offers.

I've flown in places that no other person has ever flown, landed in places that have NEVER seen a "white man" before, and flown into winds that have NEVER carried the taint of Jet A - in history!

I was having a drink on "break" one day, and had a "Lear driver" do his routine about how fast, how high, how far he'd flown - I just looked over the rim of my glass and quitely said "I'm current in take off's and landings above 15,000' - how about you?"

"It ain't no good life, but it's MY life."

cr;)

Yoho

5th Oct 2002, 05:40

Bingo Whirly! Silly business indeed, but couldn't imagine myself anywhere else.

chancha_sco

5th Oct 2002, 09:49

Hi all............having reached a point in my life whereby it would be possible from financial perspective to change career direction I would like to ask you guys on here if what I am being told is strictly true. I definitely want to undergo the full commercial route wrt to flying but it seems that most of the "independent"
people I speak to say the fixed wing is out for me at 36 yrs of age. For me the idea of flying helicopters excites me but with the
training costs verging on the astronomical and differing integrated courses going from in the region of 45-75K, would I be more employable if I did the full IR course and hope that this would allow me to jump the queue as it were wrt offshore work etc................. if not what are the minimum requirements before a
north sea off-shore company would consider a rookie??????

All replies greatly appreciated

Kevin

Dick Mitten

5th Oct 2002, 15:18

Hi there,

I started this goofy heli business at 40, and I've not really "worked" a day since. Mind you, I've had some ****-poor days, but they were all better than sitting in an office or standing in the rain doing something else! That said, check out the truck driving thread started by SASLESS. Now THAT sounds like a career!!

Be prepared to never get a job. Over here only 10-25% of those completing their CPL-Heli exams get work.

It takes time, a good car, and a thick wallet to drive around and around and around until someone takes pity and gives you a ground crew job for $1500 Cdn a month. A year or two later you might start flying an R22, and make $1800/month. And so on...

I don't know how it works in the old country... In Canada, a low-timer with IFR becomes "seat-meat", a "switch-b*tch", ballast. I know a guy with 600+hrs cojo who can't get a right-seat job cuz he doesn't have PIC time beyond his basic training. If you were here I'd say, "Use that IFR money for getting yer first job".

But that's just my opinion.

Best of luck!!

Hummingfrog

5th Oct 2002, 15:30

Hello ChanCha
What you ask is a very difficult question. The UK offshore helicopter industry is a very fickle market. Some years - late 80s to very early 90s you could get a job with no problem (59 joined my company in that time). I went for a look round on a Monday was offered a job that pm and started on Tues (I was ex-mil however). Companies were also sponsoring etc.
By 1992, however, things had changed and we only recruited 15 pilots from 1993-96 inc. We then had a big recruitment drive as pilots left for the airlines from 1997-98 1999 was quiet but 2000-01 was busy. It is very quiet now as we are fully manned nobody is leaving for the airlines and since we squeezed a semi-decent pay rise out of the company pilots who had left are trying to come back.

So what advice can I give you.
Firstly flying UK offshore helicopters is not glamouous. You will generally have to re-locate to Aberdeen, which is along way from anywhere!! You will have to be prepared to get up at 0430 to get into work for 0600. Work many weekends. Wear a rubber suit while flying long boring staight lines over never ending sea!! Make approaches to rigs in viz down to .75nm.
That said it can be a very rewarding job when you get the passengers to/from the rig in appalling weather and on time. You can not take your work home with you! so the boss is never on your back for that extra report etc. The pay is not to bad now and rostering is getting better.

Should you go for it? Well only you know that. It will be a very big risk. Offshore companies will generally choose a younger applicant as they will get more time out of him as well as being able to mould him into the company clone!! You are 36 now so you would be 38 before you were useful to the company. Would you like being a co-pilot for your whole career as we have lots of young co-pilots waiting to be Captains - which is seniority based.

To get a job up here. Your application would have to arrive at just the right time for your experience level to be of interest to the company and I can not forsee that happening in the near future. You would have to hope for an exodus of N Sea pilots to fixed wing (unlikely) a massive increase in drilling (needing extra flights) in the N Sea (Very unlikely after Brown's 10% tax increase on oil revenue)

So on balance unless you can afford to write off £75000 and then get your old job back I would spend your money on flying for pleasure.

HF
:(

BlenderPilot

5th Oct 2002, 15:40

Well in Europe there are too many people with money or exmilitary guys, and this has saturated the market for newcomers, but if you are willing to live abroad in weird places for a couple of years, making not a whole lot of money, well there are plenty of opportunities elsewhere

If you initially get your european license, then go somewhere for a few years, then come back with a bunch of say, turbine high altitude, offshore, slingload, jungle flying, etc. flight time, companies will probably argue about who gets to keep you.

If you really wan´t to fly choppers there´s always room for one more determined and capable individual.

Good Luck

Dave Jackson

5th Oct 2002, 19:48

It seems that more people would become helicopter pilots if there were more positions available. More positions, is dependent on more helicopters, which in turn is dependent on more demand for transportation by helicopter.

This may be a weird question, but can someone say what the rough cost per seat-mile is for helicopter transportation versus that of a fixed-wing, a train, a bus etc. Just curious.

Dave J.

Hummingfrog

5th Oct 2002, 21:08

Off the top of my head a N Sea Helicopter would work out at £1 to £2 per pax/nm. depending on helicopter and contract. A light twin at about 50 pence/nm. A UK train in Scotland 10 pence/statute mile. My car 7 pence/statute mile in petrol and 33 pence per mile in depreciation!!

HF
:)

PAXboy

5th Oct 2002, 21:25

SASless:
Helicopter flying also contributes to alcohol abuse ... skirt chasingSooooo, does this kind of aviation affect female heli pilots the same way?? ;)

rotormad

7th Oct 2002, 16:56

Hi All

Im about to give up the hum drum life and follow my dreams of becoming a professional helicopter pilot. Im sponsoring myself through and would like some un-biased advice. With all the information out there it's easy to get confused, would someone please be abel to offer some guidance. Im currently looking at Bristol ground school and the distance learning package, but also at Guildhall on a full time basis, any ideas? What are the pro's and cons'? I have spoken to various people about flight training and they have warded me off doing it in the States, is this the general concensus within the industry?

Im budgeting for about £45,000 is this a realistic amount?

Any advice would be welcome as i really dont want to make a bad decision. Im currently 26 and will finish training early 2004, hopefully, what is the situation regarding employment and what does the industry look like its going to do in the near future.

I have formed my own opinion on most of these issues but would like to hear from experienced pilots who could offer something more than a sales pitch.

Thanks

Rotormad.

discobeast

7th Oct 2002, 23:54

do your training in south africa. training will cost you half of that. maybe even less. and then spend the rest on xtra ratings etc so you make yourself more employable. send me an email if you want more info.

Red Wine

8th Oct 2002, 00:05

Do it anywhere but the UK...........and why..??

Save yourself considerable money and get to see the world.......the US, Oz, NZ or SA are all good alternatives.....

If you want to work in the UK after that....just convert........if you have the UK ground subjects then thats a blessing........

ClearBlueWater

8th Oct 2002, 11:22

1. Per above flying outside the UK is much cheaper.
2. By the time you've paid for accomodation, car hire and general living expenses abroad the cost difference won't be so great.
3. By the time you've converted to a UK licence the cost difference will have disappeared.
4. GBP 45,000 is a realistic assessment of the overall costs of attainingthe UK CPL (H) done by the modular route.
5. You will be exceedingly lucky to get a job with a 200 hour CPL i.e. after spending £45K.
6. Likelihood is that you will have to build another 100 hrs after the CPL and then do the instructor course in order to build sufficient hours to be considered for a commercial position. That's another GBP 20 - 25K on top of your commercial licence costs.
7. If you can do the whole exercise on a full time basis you will be able to reduce these costs a little.
8. Once you're an instructor the pickings will likely be frugal.
9. Bristol Ground School gets the results and is very popular. If you can do a full time course then that will be easier. If you're good at cramming and exams you can study part time at home, supplement the studies with a crammer, and simultaneously build hours thus speeding things up and reducing overall costs.
10. Make sure you do the flying with a good school. Cheap is not necessarily good.

rotormad

8th Oct 2002, 14:42

im thinking Tiger Helicopters or Heli Coventry, any thoughts??

Rotormad

discobeast

8th Oct 2002, 19:37

1. 300 hours with GBP 28,000.00. still leaves you with GBP 17,000.00 to convert or do what you like with (that includes your instructors ticket)
2. live comfortable for around GBP 300 per month (rent, food, car included)
3. some of the best schools around with ex-airforce pilots as instructors. (....even if it is cheap)
4. you will be able to do your training full-time.
6. experience flying in africa
5. no... i am not talking out of my a$$.
:)

Darren999

9th Oct 2002, 23:51

Hi all,

About conversions mentioned earlier. I am off to the states to do my instructor ticket on a 47, build some hrs there, with a small interest to come back here to fly. I have been lead to believe If I want to fly here commercially I will have to sit all the 14 exams I believe.
Can any shed any light on this for me.

Darren

Stop the bus and let my brother Jack off

AlastairUK

10th Oct 2002, 11:14

Rotormad,

I've just been through what you're about about to start so this is the way I did it and the way I'd do it again if I had my time over ...

I was lucky enough to have the 45,000 odd that it costs to the training fulltime and its taken me just over 12 months from 0 to 190 hour JAR CPL(H). Unfortunately I'm now coming to realise that was the easy bit, its the next 500-1000 hours that are going to be the tough part.

When I first started I was advised that if I wanted to work in this country in an offshore and then maybe in a police or EMS role then I should train in this country. (Apparently there is still a stigma attached to overseas training.) It seemed reasonable advice so I began my PPL last August. After I completed that I immediately started on a distance learning course with OAT. I have to say I thought they were excellent, the notes were good and the two week crammer courses before each set of exams were hugely helpful.

By January I'd completed my first set of exams and built about 30 hours pottering around the SE of England. Trouble was I didn't think I was learning anything (apart from which airport cafes served the best coffee) so I decided to take myself off to NZ to do some hour building. Best decision I made in the twelve months of my training. The training I received was fantastic and the location awesome. I did mountain, low level and sling training. In the end I spent three months down there, did around 80 hours and passed my NZ CPL(H). (You only need 150 hours to take the test rather than the 155 you need here to even start the 35 hour course). Cost wise, as someone has already pointed out, it didn't really work out any cheaper but the experience was invaluable.

I arrived back in the UK in April and started studying for the second set of exams. Then once I'd finished those I took the mandatory 35 hour course and sat the flight test to get my JAR CPL(H).

Everyone from other students to instructors to Chief Pilots will have their opinions about your chances of getting a job after you've finished and I'm sure you'll try and tell yourself during the course of your training that you know how tough it'll be. Having spent the last two months pounding the pavement and wearing out my keyboard writing letters though let me assure its next to impossible to secure a job with a CPL and only 200 hours.

Pretty much the only option at that stage is the North Sea and as far as I can make out they aren't recruiting at the moment and aren't likely to be for the foreseeable future. The only other way in is as an instructor but you'll need a further 100 hours and the money to pay for another 30 (I think) hour training course, about another £25,000.

But its not all doom and gloom, unfortunately I've run out of time for the moment but I'll post again this afternoon with the way I would have gone about it if I'd had my time over.

rotorboy

10th Oct 2002, 15:05

I did my primary training in NZ about 1/3 cheaper than I could of in the us. I thought I got excellent value and skills.

Plus it is really cheap to live in NZ (spending usd og GBP)women.
I would move there in a heartbeat if I could figure out how to make a living.

Note that training cost in the US are going up. The numbers you see on the web , add 15-20% once they add in everything.

Go to NZ or SA...

if you have any questions email me or names of training schools in NZ.

RB

rotormad

10th Oct 2002, 20:18

Well i must damit to being slightly nervous about spending all this cash and not having a job at the end of it!! However i am determined to succed and like the idea of building hours in NZ, i have a friend in Weillington, any flight schools you could recommend there????

Thanks for the responses, i really appreciate it. Just one more thing, im thinking of doing my distance learning with Bristow, anybody done it with them or have any opinons!!! Would apppreciate it.

Rotormad

Sorry i meant Bristol, ive got bloody off-shore companies on the bloody brain!!!

Cheers

Rotormad

helipilotnz

11th Oct 2002, 08:03

i have passed my ppl(h) and am continuing to cpl(h) and ppl(a)( for the instrument rating) with southern wings in invercargill. we have all weather and terrain types. wanaka and queenstown are but two hours away. check out the site www.flightschool.co.nz
:D

Hoverman

11th Oct 2002, 12:40

I'm years out of date about training costs, but a bit suprised to read people saying the US is still so much cheaper. I know fixed-wing hire is much cheaper in the US (unlike the rip-off rates here) but is helicopter flying any cheaper than here? :confused:
I looked into renting a 206 for a few hours in California a few months ago and was quoted just over $600 pr hr - not much difference to the UK. And the hoops I'd have had to jump through to self-fly hire made it not worth the hassle. Some places in the US won't even do SFH for turbines at all.

arm the floats

11th Oct 2002, 19:44

Rotormad,
1. You are Mad if you don't check out www.heli.com
2. You are Mad if you believe that you have to do your flight training in Britain in order to get a job in Britain.
3. You are Mad if you don't think NOW about how you are going to get your first 1000 hrs,because without these crucial hours you'll get nowhere.
4. You are Mad if you don't do some really thorough research on potential flight schools world wide.
5. You are Mad if you don't look into the visa situations within these countries.

I started flying in the mid 1990's at age 26 in the US. I left the country 2 years later with a CPL(H) and CFI and around 1000 hrs of mainly instructing.Back to the UK to spend a ridiculous amount of money on a minute amount of flying between 5 and 10 hours and a slog through the CAA exams then straight into the North Sea.I stayed there for a few years then got myself a real helicopter flying job;) ,still in the UK.

Be prepared for dissmissive comments eg. "a US licence isn't worth the paper its written on"

However when I was in the North Sea there were up to 8 pilots that I knew personally from HAI.

Bristows obviously think its cheaper as they transferred their training to HAI.

Some people will tell you that you're Mad to start flying helicopters in the first place.:p
Some people will tell you to spend your money on a fixed wing licence (they may have a point).

All the best with your choice,its an important one.

Capt. Spud

22nd Dec 2002, 22:59

Hi all

I am just finishing off my private license (fixed wing) here in the US. But recently, I have been more and more interested in flying helicopters, for a living...

I am at Embry Riddle in AZ and have thought about starting flying at the local helicopter FBO and still getting my degree through Riddle.

Here's the question:

How do the licenses work, would I do an "add-on" after getting my private license? Is there a "multi-engine" rating for helicopters? I might do the multi engine rating (fixed wing) through riddle as I have already taken the ground school.

Would any of you guys like to try help me out with some of these questions and giving me a little insight into the world of rotary wing aircraft. Maybe even suggestions on how to go about doing the training, in order to minimise the headaches and enjoy the training even more.

Thanks, and sorry if any of these questions seem REALLY dumb.

Cheers

Craig

ATPMBA

23rd Dec 2002, 14:19

Good questions !

Sounds like you want an FAA certificate, which is easier than the JAR program.

You have Private FW, you can do an add-on PVT Rotorcraft Helicopter. You do not need another written exam, your FW will cover it. You need to solo, that can take anywhere from 15 – 40 hours depending on your skill, frequency of lessons, motivation, etc. If you train in an R-22 I believe you need a minimum of 20 hours to solo. After you solo you need to do 10 hours of solo which includes 3 hours of solo XC, some additional night dual and prep for the test. Be prepared to hit the books as the examiner will make sure you understand helicopter aerodynamics, like retreating blade stall, dissymmetry of lift, etc.

For a Commercial license you need a total of 150 flight hours, all of your FW counts towards the total, with 50 hours in a helicopter. Be prepared to have more helicopter time, 90 hours total may be a more reasonable total as you need to demonstrate higher standards for the commercial checkride and you need to do confined areas and 180 degree autorotation. You also need to a Commercial Helicopter written exam.

Once you have your commercial license you need to make a decision, either go for your helicopter CFI or instrument rating. If you are at a school (or pick a school) that will take you on as a new CFI then go for the CFI. This will allow you to build hours, and hours is what prospective employers want to see. If the prospects for a CFI position are low and they have an instrument ship then go for the instrument rating. Any prospective corporate, EMS, offshore operation will require an instrument rating. Instrument training is a challenge, it may take 40-60 hours of instruction to get the rating. If you are at a school that has an instrument ship that has low utilization you may want to get the instrument rating done as low utilized equipment gets sold. Helicopter instrument ships are delicate, electrical gyros are expensive, this type of equipment is rarely used for primary training.

There is no multi-engine helicopter license or rating. However, if you did take say an instrument checkride in a multi-engine helicopter you would probably have to demonstrate a simulated single-engine instrument approach. It’s not like FW where your instrument rating is limited to SE or ME aircraft.

You mentioned you might go for a FW multi-engine rating, if you really want to fly helicopters save the funds for RW as this training is expensive.

I like to mention the current bankruptcies of UAL and US Air. If these carries end up being liquidated there will be a huge glut of pilots (perhaps over 12,000) on the market for years to come. I also believe there will be a huge ripple effect on the regional jets as the feed into the major carriers. You might be wise choosing the heli route. Helicopter pilots never made airline salaries but there are some decent salaries out there.

Genghis the Engineer

24th Dec 2002, 09:13

Not admittedly US oriented, but if you go to the Royal Aeronautical Society's website at www.raes.org.uk and then to the careers section, there's a large download of a booklet called "So you want to be a pilot", which you might find useful.

G

Devil 49

24th Dec 2002, 14:08

Further to ATPMBA's good advice-

If you're considering flying helos professionally (why?), do an airplane instrument course first. By the time you've done that, you'll be in the ball park for comm helo "aeronautical experience", and the airplane time will greatly assist you in the helo instrument (see next paragraph). My experience is that the difference between a helo private pilot and bare minimum commercial level aircraft control touch is about 10 hours of instruction. If your aim is professional, start as one.

Helicopters fly in the same airspace and generally by the same rules as stuck wings-learning IFR in an airplane makes learning to handle a helo ifr easier. I used airplanes as simulators before I took my IFR course [I'm not an airplane pilot]. The helo part was the first and only time I've ever done a course in minimum time... Yes, you can do helo commercial work without an instrument ticket, but there's less opportunity every day. From your point of view, instrument proficiency=life insurance, and lots of us old fart Viet Nam guys don't have that ticket-but we do have tens of thousands of hours-you can't compete with us for those non-ifr slots. Use that to your advantage.

You'll see many schools offering minimum hours for a commercial add-on. Your initial instruction is the basis for all your experience, get the best you can find, which is not necessarily the cheapest.

My limited exeperience is that when it comes to the actual control handling, ab initio and experienced airplane pilots move at the same rate through to approximately private level aircraft control-then the airplane pilots progress much more rapidly-they already understand flight, how to navigate, weather and the airspace system.