Cork's up and downs

[runawayedge]

Heard rumours on the grapeveine, may already be public knowledge but here goes. CitiExpress to reduce MAN by one, Flybe gone from end March, RE to do Belfast from April 1. Can aybody shed some light?

[Dash-7 lover]

As far as Citiexpress goes...looks like we are down from 3 a day to 1 according the schedules in BABS after the end of March. Doesn't surprise me though because the pax loads on some services have been in single figures.....and I think we could use the Dash-8's for something more useful??? The only departure from MAN @ 12.10 looks like its still the 146-200 which will be either G-GNTZ or G-MANS......hope this helps

[Tom the Tenor]

Not all bad news, you know, for Cork! Summer charters should be up a little this coming summer compared to last and CSA are also due to up their schedule from and to Prague so all is not yet lost.

Keep the faith!

[brabazon]

Did I dream it or did bmi baby not announce LGW - ORK and PRG yesterday on their home page? It doesn't seem to be there now!

[ALLMCC]

If Aer Arann do take up Belfast, hope it will be BHD - would be nice to see them back again after the all too brief DUB service last year!

[Chillwinston]

Hijacked

[Best Western]

Perhaps we need to translate it!

"Holy God Boyyo - leave it out"

[ALLMCC]

Chillwinston.....and what exactly is the problem with my post? I'd be interested to know - if anyone finds it offensive I'd be happy to elaborate.

Once again you've elected to hi-jack a thread with your usual drivel which consistently manages to be neither constructive nor humorous!

Could you actually be hinting (in not many words) that RE should operate to BFS? - now that would be funny were it not for the fact that it would be a complete and utter waste of time and money for RE!

[mysecretsmile]

I too hope that Cork has more joy with services in the later part of the year that what the early part has delivered - fingers crossed a good summer schedule lies ahead.

I believe that Aer Arran will announce the ORK service shortly to Belfast, but unfortunately for you ALLMCC I don't think it will be from BHD.

The whole DUB service has left a bad taste with RE and if BFS are
prepared to offer them landing fees for little or a fraction of what BHD would charge them - who could blame them.

[runawayedge]

Believe it's to City...in next day or two

[Chillwinston]

The point to my "drivel" (why are you replying to it then, matey!!) is that I, as a fare paying passenger gets to the destinations I want to travel to and for the right price.

As for Cork, with the recent demise of Jetmagic (shame!) I only hope that another airlines either picks up the routes or a new operator (with sound financial backing) will see the potential and create more gainful employment to the people who have lost their careers through no fault of their own.

Chillwinston

[runawayedge]

Children....any chance of returning to the original thread

[FlyingV]

It's ORK-BHD from March 1st.

http://www.onbusiness.ie/2004/0212/aerarann.html

[runawayedge]

Good news...20,000 on a twice daily year round, using ATR42. Wonder has somebody got their figures wrong. March 1, no schedule and not in system. Suspect planning! Having said that good luck to all concerned.

[with alacrity]

Hijacked

[LGWAlan]

and now bmibaby have confirmed LGW-ORK - which can only be good for the airport

[runawayedge]

See RE also annonuced MAN/WAT yesterday....interesting to see what sort of frequency they throw at it.....bit suspect I would say

[LBAir]

Come on GUYS'N'GALS lets get out of this negative talk. Lets face it, this forum is all just a bit of fun and if people can't take a bit of old hard talk now and then, well, need I say more.

I had a slating because apparently I was too pro-LBA and I apparently didn't support other airports but hay, why should I not support my local airport? (RE: Leeds Expansion/ Teesside Expansion posts)

So ALLMACC, Chillwinston, etc. etc.... Stop spitting out your dummies and get PPRUNE(ing)
:( :( :( :( :( :(

[Tom the Tenor]

Well said, LBAir! Now that a service to Gatwick from Cork has been reinstated a new project is needed so what about a 2-3x7 service again between Cork and Nice? Nice was amongst Jetmagic's best supported routes last summer and was fine even during the weeks of winter. Between EZY, WW and Jet2 sending in so many flights from different bases around Britain and Europe would there be any hope of a W rotation to Cork from a Nice bound aircraft? Just an idea! Shame to see such a good route disappear.

[Hawk]

Thread locked. Don't know why posters do it. If you personally attack another..one of a number of things will happen, either, the thread will be locked or posters will be restricted from contributing to that topic, the forum, or in worst scenario..the Site.

[runawayedge]

After the sad demise of jet magic, it was good to see positive news come out of Cork...sad to see what the thread led to...agree with previous two comments......

[Hogg]

Guys.
No more personal attacks please. Stick to Thread. Read Hawks comments.

Hogg

[FlyCorkInternational]

Cork has certainly experienced its fair share of losses this year with the demise of Jetmagic, and reductions frequencies by EI, FR, BAcx and BE. However a few notable firsts from Cork this year will keep things interesting.
In April one of the DUB-CPT flights is routing via ORK on way south. IN September Quantas are operating a once off B744 service from LHR-ORK-SYD. And EK will be operating a once off A330 ORK-DUBAI service as yet the date is unconfirmed.

[Tom the Tenor]

These one off flights from AV8, QF and EK are very welcome.

However, Cork is still losing too many destinations this summer. If we were approaching winter it would be more understandable but as of now it is just crazy.

The reduction of the Manchester flights is vexing. Down from 5 daily flights to just 2 beats me. Was there that much overcapacity over the winter and last summer?

Why are BEE pulling out of BHX-ORK? Very strong loads last summer.

Nice was one of GX's best performing routes last year with up 5 services a week. This summer, nothing. What has been done to attract new business on this route and to Nantes?

There is even a case for a single daily flight to Brussels. The last 3 to 4 weeks of the GX service proved it.

There are also reductions on Heathrow and Stansted. FR have today announced a second daily flight to Farranfore (Kerry.)

Is airport privatisation the answer?

[Cyrano]

Tom:

Remember that strong loads are only half the equation. Especially on a regional jet, it's not enough to have a nearly-full plane - there needs to be a good proportion of pax paying relatively high fares too.

A rough calculation with some whizzy route-economics software on a similar stage length to ORK-NCE and an ERJ-145 suggests a fully-allocated round-trip cost (i.e. including aircraft lease costs, overheads etc) somewhere around EUR12,000. That's an 80% load factor (40 pax each way) with pax paying EUR150 on average each way to break even. Now of course if the aircraft is just sitting round in the middle of the day, it's not fair to expect it to cover its fully-allocated costs, you just want it to make some sort of contribution to fixed costs, so there you're looking at maybe EUR 8,000-9,000 - i.e. 80% LF at an average of EUR100 each way. OK, that's more doable in peak season, but that doesn't justify you getting the aircraft in the first place, just gives you something to do with it to make a few cents in the middle of the day. For the peak morning and evening rotations, you still need to identify some high-yield business routes which will more than cover fully allocated costs and thus actually make some profit and make the business case for getting the aircraft in the first place.

(Disclaimer: above numbers are only very quick estimates, as I do still have a day job as well :O . They don't include ORK route support or incentives, for example. Any errors in the calculation are my fault rather than that of the software! ;) )

[Ambulance 'Charlie Alpha']

All this talk of Cork and no-one's mentioned the daily GLA-ORK-GLA service operated by Loganair in their SF-340!

I'm sure it does exist, either that or I had one hell of an outer body experience at lunch time today!!!

I love operating to ORK. Fun flight, great pax, excellent crew and chirpy ATC and groundstaff aswell.

Enjoy the forthcoming summer guys and gals.

[Tom the Tenor]

I can assure you that Glasgow is always close in my mind as we have close friends living there and I never lose sight of the fab service provided by Loganair between our two great cities. The Saab SF340s are great aeroplanes too and goes some way to show that some pax are more than happy to fly turboprops.

By the way, Ambulance CA, what was the wind at Cork yesterday as you landed? Must have been interesting!

Cyrano, thank you for your thoughtful critique on the economics of a hypothetical ERJ 145 rotation between Cork and Nice. Much to think about there. I know one thing though, I wont be able to rush out and lease an aircraft any day now!

[Ambulance 'Charlie Alpha']

It was just a wee bit gusty, but only 40kts or so on arrival. The 340 is an excellent crosswind machine, rocks and rolls all the way down the approach, and reasonable touchdown at max crosswind of 35kts. Very controllable toy for the job. And to be honest, to operate out of Glasgow and the Highlands in the winter, it really does need to be good for the job!!!

Being able to use the shorter runway at ORK is a great help on a windy day, and also good for cutting the corner and expediting approaches. The ATRs seem to make good use of it aswell. It's good to rock up and see the bustle on the ground nowadays with the Futura flights, BACx, Air Wales, Aer Arann and so on. Shame about Magic though. If nothing else, the aircraft definately looked the part in that paint scheme. As an aside, is the freighter aircraft a permanent resident. Think it was a DHL machine, but I could be wrong?

Just wish I could get a decent night-stop over there. How's the stout in Cork?!

[Tom the Tenor]

The DHL 757 arrives every morning from DUB around 8 am and goes out again around 8.30 pm the same evening to EMA.

Yes, runway 25/07 is great and it is a pity it is not the longer runway as the prevailing winds are generally westerly anyway. Last Sunday was interesting as a BACX BAe 146 took off on 07, had never seen a big jet use 07 before though a First Air 727F did take off on it once during their turn at doing the DHL flights. What a sight that must have been! An EI A321 also took off once on 25. Poor ol' Jetmagic used to use 25/07 for the ERJ 135 but cannot recall the '145s landing there.

Eventhough there may not be quite the same amount of airliners around this summer at Cork compared to last there will still be periods of considerable congestion on the ramps especially at the weekends due to movements but also due to the considerable work in progress whilst the new terminal is being built and drainage is laid etc. All good fun! Funnily enough, in spite of less routes this summer Cork should just about have more pax than last year - this will be some achievement if it holds true. The Aer Arann contribution is very significant in all of this. Mind you if EI had kept on to their SF340s they could have offered a near shuttle type operation between ORK and DUB like RE are doing and could now take up other routes like to Nantes and Jersey. Of course, you could say that for EI BAe146s as well too and it is all hypothetical anyway!

Well, as for the stout! What can I say!? Two locally brewed stouts: Murphys and Beamish. Murphys, brewed in the northside is my favourite. Beamish which is brewed in the southside is a little like Gillespie Stout that you would find in Glasgow - I think Gillespie is nicer than Beamish but Murphys would be the best of the three. Nothing against the Dubs but Guinness is a cruel drink!

Have a search in Nightstop Forum and type in Nightout in EICK where I made a contribution about bars. I was well on doing that and is good for a laugh!

[runawayedge]

have major concerns for the tenners mental well being....think he may have been downgraded to a fiver!

[Tom the Tenor]

Got wind of some good news today for Cork! VLM have been hired to do a series of summer charters to Jersey from Cork for a local travel agency. Have no other details yet but guess eqipment must the the Fokker 50. Goes some way to make up for the loss of Jetmagic on last summer's succesful Jersey operation. :8

[FlyCorkInternational]

The confirmation has been made. A Ryan International B757 will arrive nonstop from JFK at 9:30am on June 23 and depart again at 12:30 for the nonstop service back to JFK. It will operate weekly thereafter. It is being organised by Hammond Tours Inc and handled in Ireland by Dawson Travel. Details of fares and flights are available at www.hammondtours.com.
Another milestone for Cork

[Tom the Tenor]

Yes, a considerable milestone indeed for Cork. Let us all hope it works out and that at least a few flights come off as a result. I would say a huge amount of work went in to secure this achievement and a big congratulations to all concerned on both sides of the Atlantic at Cork and New York.

Of course, the doubting Tom that I am I will believe it when the 757 not only touches down from JFK but when she is again airbourne out of Cork heading for 15 West with her oceanic clearance and track ID! :suspect:

If all goes pretty well the day cannot be too far off when Cork will have a scheduled service to New York? Bearing in mind Cork's maritime past there is plenty of precedent there for passenger services across to New York only now it should be of the airbourne variety!

Bristol, Cardiff taken note! ;)

[CCR]

Superb news for Cork! When the current bilateral is scrapped and the Open Skies agreement arrives, this route will without doubt become a scheduled servce.

[FlyCorkInternational]

The flight details for the GulfAir service has now been released. As previously indicated the flights will now use Cork AND Dublin and apparently the on the outward you arrive in Dubai, but on the return you leave from Abu Dhabi.

Starting Saturday 26th June

GF8007 Dep Abu Dhabi 0130 / Arr Cork 0700
GF8008 Dep Cork 0830 / Arr Dublin 0930
GF8008 Dep Dublin 1100 / Arr Dubai 2200


For the first flight on 26June the aircraft positions in from London

Confirmation of these flights is good news for both Cork and Dublin.

Anyone else think Ryanairs commitment to Cork is lacking, particularly in view of Mr. O'Learys comments today. According to him, Cork does not need a new terminal and he has no intention of launching any new services from Cork. He has said he is going to "rescue" shannon when the compulsory stop is lifted. Personally I would like to see him gone from Cork and replaced with an airline who has some interest in Cork.

[Tom the Tenor]

Great news about the update on the Gulf Air flights. Cant wait! Dubai, Abu Dhabi & New York JFK all on the Cork boards in the same few days. Heady stuff indeed. Good that the flight is operating out through Dublin really - critical mass and all that out of DUB makes it easier to fill a smaller amount of seats out of Cork.

Am glad that Michael O'Leary has made his intentions clear about no expansion at Cork. This allows the field open for other new LCCs to examine the place without having FR looking over their shoulder. Maybe Shanno*n needs to be rescued - thankfully, Cork does not.

However, O'Leary's remark about the runway being too short is, of course, correct. It needed to be said. Very few aircraft have as good a power to weight ratio as the Boeing 757 which makes the New York service so possible. Even a 200 metre extension to runway 17/35 would have made the flight to Dubai possible direct? Or possible future flights to Orlando?

At present the new EI services to BCN & ALC are performing superbly and even MXP is also doing very well. Early days of course but all boding well for the summer so far!

:)

[SNNEI]

Hey,

Tom, or indeed anyone in the know..

Have any of you heard anything about ORK-AMS being returned to it's rightful (twice daily) frequency?

Cheers!

[FlyCorkInternational]

No have not heard of the evening AMS service being re-instated (as yet anyway).

As far as Ryanair are concerned, Tom, i agree that the runway is too short and should be lengthened by at least another 500 mtrs. However, I dont see the relevance of of Michael O Learys comment as far as his own operations are concerned. A look at quite a few of their destimations and you will notice that the runways there are indeed shorter than Corks. Indeed to fly from Cork to ANY of their existing continental destinations, the runway here is more than sufficient. So whats he getting at ??? Mr O Leary from day one has always been anti Cork, yet I cannot understand why. Needless to say I dont expect to be bringing you any good news about Ryanair and their Cork ops.

The statement by him that he will "rescue Shannon" should be taken with caution. Look what he did to Shannon with the Hahn flights when he fell out with them.

[Maxiumus]

Dublin to the Middle East via Cork??? Is this Shannon Mark 2? What nonsense indeed. Wont be long before Gulf Air realise the futility of this.
Point to point works if one can fill the aircraft but with the "few seats" that will originate in Cork, its madness.

And welcomed here by so many, no doubt the same people who so vehemently de-cry the Shannon stopover.

[SNNEI]

Maximus,

I think there is a very important point you are missing here:

This is a charter service. Gulf air will not have the realise the futility of anything: they only provide the plane, crew etc. The tour operator takes the risks of filling the plane, and it is they who have made an informed decision to stop in Cork.

The tone of your post worries me: am I to believe that after having listened to the arrogance and ignorance of the shannon stopover crew (and i'm from the Shannon area, so I know a bit about this), we now also have to listen to someone who thinks DUB is the only airport in this country deserving of anything???

There is no Cork stopover: it is a choice made by the tour operator.

As an aside, the day we get scheduled flights to all these exotic locations is the day we can really start celebrating.

[Findo]

I see Cork is to have a service by Ryan International from New York. It claims to be a first is this so ?

"Nonstop service to Cork - a first - will commence June 23 and be flown through Sep. 8, departing every Wednesday; returns will operate on Thursdays. Fares will range between $214.50 and $299.50 one way, based on roundtrip purchase. Fares vary according to date of departure "

[CCR]

Yes, this is the first US charter route to Cork. Because of the pathetic current bilateral with the US. Cork is not allowed have a
scheduled service to the US. This will change when the forthcoming Open skies agreement comes into effect in a couple of years between the EU & US and the Irish government can no longer discriminate against Cork in favour of Shannon and Dublin!!

[SNNEI]

Hi CCR,

more like the Irish govt discriminating against everyone in favour of Shannon, unfortunatly.

[MarkD]

If ORK is to be even occasionally routing to JFK, thank god security were awake when that @rse with the gun was passing through... hope the book is thrown.

[glynn-kayes]

I think a NYC to BFS and onwards to ORK or reverse,would be just what the doctor ordered.With BFS having final talks again with CO for a year round service,an Ork stop off would certantly seal it,especially if they operate their 767 200.BTW,CO were very close to announcing a BFS to EWR service in competition to Aer Lingus five flights a week from Bfs pre sept11, so the demand is there.CO must have done their sums before.However I would like to see Aer Lingus back at BFS,they had great loads from BFS and went from three to five flights per week.Maybe a BFS to LHR sevice could be resumed by EI.

[FlyCorkInternational]

No this is not the first US-ORK charter flight. You may recall Rich International did a few Orlando-Cork-Shannon-Orlando and few years back with L1011. Also Buffalo Air did a few Boston-Cork-Shannon-Boston back in the early 80's with B707. However this will be the first NONSTOP on both legs and regularly scheduled.

I also believe that a daily JFK-ORK-BFS-ORK-JFK service would be an ideal scenario and feeling is eventually this is what might happen with EI. Also understand rumour that CO may be sniffing around Cork too.

[Tom the Tenor]

The Rich TriStars routed Orlando - Gander - Cork - Dublin - Gander - Orlando. TriStars 1s were not great performers.

The Buffalo ex TAP Boeing 707s arrived from Providence, Rhode Island if memory serves.

Transocean also operated a DC-8-61 flight from New York, think it was JFK but not 100 per cent sure and arrived in Cork after a fuel stop in Gander. Routed up to Shannon and back to America again via Gander. DC-8-61s did not have the range to fly directly like the series 63 did. Might have been around 1989?

American Trans Air also operated one charter to the U.S. around the mid 1990s with a 757 that operated in and out through Shannon.

Yes, CO doing an EWR-ORK/BFS-EWR would be something with a 762. Imagine a wx diversion at Cork to Belfast though!

[CCR]

Well, I guess if EI and RE get over their current row, the passengers could hop on the Aer Arann flight back to Cork:E

[Maxiumus]

Ah, the Gulf AIr thing is a charter. Well thats different.

However, I still think its lunacy using a large aircraft to make stop offs at small airports on scheduled flights. I'm sure Cork could support scheduled transatlantic flights but a Shannon-style stop-over is no solution.

[MarkD]

what is the current state of play at EI vs RE?

[Tom the Tenor]

RE are making pots and pots of money. Loads up massively on this time last year.

EI are making pots and pots of money too and would be making more if they had not dropped the evening LHR and AMS and the Tuesday and Saturday CDG.

RE should consider the economics of trying a ORK-GWY service. Only other viable public transport option to Galway from Cork is the 4 hours, 20 minutes bus and the train option is via Portarlington which must be considered a no, no.

There was some talk that RE might being doing their own handling shortly but nothing has yet materialised.

Air Luxor are sending in an A330 on a Faro rotation next Sunday, 18th April so will all the doubters who query whether the A330 can manouevre safely around the runways, taxiways and ramp at Cork please attend to assuage their misgivings! Thank you. :=

[CCR]

EI & RE had a row over commissions and they no longer have an interline agreement. For example, if you try to book a scheduled flight from Cork to the US with a travel agent or even with Aer Lingus, they will route you via Heathrow or Amsterdam despite there being 9 flights a day between Cork and Dublin with RE.
EI lose the transatlantic business and RE lose out on the connecting flights. You would think they would get there act together.

[Tom the Tenor]

Thanks for that, had not copped it! Knew there was some issues with baggage last year between RE and EI.

Some not so good news today. To facilitate the ongoing building work of the new terminal and the multi-storey car park the ILS will be out of action at Cork from June to August and the CAT II system of the ILS is likely to be down from about 6 months to a year! If the weather is poor this summer and autumn we could have some serious disruption with the flights of thousands of passengers being diverted to Shann*n, Farranfore (Kerry) and Dublin. I am just wondering if RE and all the low cost operators like FR, EI, WW and the IT carriers like Futura and First Choice realise this and the high cost consequences to them of diverting aircraft, crews and pax?

Things might get very messy if the sea fog and low cloud rolls in to Cork off the Atlantic this summer. :ugh:

[FlightDetent]

Tom, just because we have
similar issues (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124176&highlight=PRG), don't we get to be mentioned too? :E Thanks for info, I mean, really.:ok: