BA...That's It, I've Had Enough

[strake]

Major rant about to start ,you have been warned:

From 1993 to 1998 and 2000 to date, I have flown premium cabins with BA. I have the cards, I have the miles for which I am grateful. In return, my company has spent around £450-500k in that time on fares..just for me. It's a lot but it's part of my job.
So what's the problem? Well, I have watched while a great airline has just let itself go. Just four or five years ago, Club was a good service. New bed system, good menu selection, nice attentive service. Just what you expect for £3K plus. Now, dirty seats and cabins, limited menus, an hillarious shrinking washbag and indifferent crew who have been obviously told on day one training that pax are thickos and should be treated as such.... Get on the plane, drink-drink, food, drink, duty free, zipcurtains shut, goodbye. To be fair, most are OK but some, stunningly rude at times. Example one: Flight from India, little old indian lady sitting behind me in Club. Offered fruit by female Purser. LOL obviously feels an apple or something..."No NO!" says Purser in loud voice, "If you touch it you take it!". £4700 service?
Example two: returning from Moscow. Not one CC spoke Russian and not one announcement was made in Russian. When we landed in London a number of Club Pax turned on phones..normal practice in Moscow. Male CC shrieked from his seat for phones to be off. Of course, some pax did not understand. CC then stood up walked to pax and told him "the authorities will be called when we stop". Pax still did not understand but was saved by neighbour who translated. Worst thing? Club had about 5 female CC (I guess CC because of the way they were talking to crew) in "plain clothes" who had been drinking in the lounge before the flight and hit the champers during...they decided to clap and cheer when CC shouted at PAX. £1500 service?
Interminable PA's from Captains being told to tell pax every five minutes that we are going to land ahead of schedule...then we land and have to wait thirty minutes for gate crew to arrive. All goes very quiet up the front then....
Last straw yesterday. Try to use the website to book flight to Moscow. Very slow and finally message saying system is down, contact local office. Flight booked perfectly then told £15 charge because I have not booked online! I won't bore you anymore with the discussion with duty manager, customer relations etc. All agreed it was wrong but (hands wringing) can't do anything about it....
I could go on ad nauseum but, if you've read this far, you are probably nauseumed out.
If by some chance any management is reading, this is why I am leaving you. I've tried to excuse the behaviour, I've tried to stick with you since 9/11 and all the problems you've encountered since then but, in the end it comes down to the way you treat people. You've stopped putting the customer first..so, goodbye.
To the fun CC who enjoy their job and make a trip go by easily....thanks!
Rant over.

[Pax Vobiscum]

My sympathies, strake, you may have been a little unlucky in your 'choice' of cabin crew, but I don't think you'll find many travellers (whether in F, C or Y) who would argue that the BA experience has improved over the last several years. Unless we vote with our tickets, it's unlikely to change.

A big problem, however, is who are you going to change to? On the two routes you mention, the obvious competitiors with direct flights are Air India and Aeroflot - neither of whom would be obvious choices to offer an improved level of service. The criticisms you level at BA could equally be applied to many of the European flag carriers and the US majors too - I'd probably choose BA in preference to most of these. The only destinations where we've got a serious choice are those served by Virgin and the middle/far east (where I probably wouldn't have chosen BA anyhow). What I'm really trying to say is that they may have us over a barrel!

The hilarious shrinking washbag is a typical beancounter's solution. There was an interesting thread a while ago about the cost of these items which, if memory serves, came up with figures in the range of £25-£50 (sounded a lot to me, at the time). It's easy for someone to say "let's save £1 per bag" - multiply that by the number of C & F seats and you're looking at savings of many thousands, maybe even millions per year. Fat bonuses all round for the beancounters in question! The problem is that if you dissuade 0.1% of your customers from flying with you at £3-5K per seat, you've just made a thumping great loss, but no-one can directly attribute that to the washbag ...

[strake]

Pax,

Funnily enough, it's something as daft as the washbag that pushes people away. Not because it is important but because it provides such a wonderful metaphor to the overall service.

As you ask, the sectors I fly regularly are Miami, Tokyo, Boston and Philly so, no real problem there. I agree the alternatives to my other two destinations, New Delhi and Moscow are a little limited. Maybe I have to swallow my outrage for those...

[christep]

Disagree on Aeroflot. In the same way that BA has gone down Aeroflot has gone up. In terms of value for money my friends who have flown both tell me there is absolutely no contest these days between Aeroflot and BA: Aeroflot wins every time. Their premium cabin service is, apparently, excellent.

[PAXboy]

I am not familiar with this route and have not been to India so have to admit that I am guessing that 'New Delhi' is the same as 'Delhi'??

Virgin Atlantic operate:-
LHR to DEL as VS 300
Wed; Fri; Sun. Dpt: 22:00 arr: 11:45 next day

DEL to LHR as VS 301
Mon; Thurs; Sat. Dpt: 14:00 arr: 17:40

Not sure what a/c operates this route as I could not immediately locate it on the VS website. They used to serve Moscow but have not done so for a few years now.

For the record, I am not (nor ever have been) an employee of Virgin Atlantic, simply a satisfied customer for whom VS has been my first choice of long haul for 17 years. I have travelled in all cabins and they get my vote. Upper Class is fabbo! :cool:

Their flyer miles scheme (Flying Club) is also more flexible in how I can use them but that is a minor point.

Let us know how you get on.

[Globaliser]

VS to DEL appears to be on a 343 (A340-300). There should be an Air India code on every flight, as this is a zombie codeshare with AI (ie actually operating AI traffic rights).

[bealine]

Sorry to hear you're leaving us, Strake. I'm not in management, but I do empathise. I am a firm believer that costs need to be controlled, but not to the extent that your customers notice - unless they're paying lower fares of course.

Indeed, the CEO of my wife's airline publicly laughs at BA's trimming the washbag:

"...If BA are paying for the amenity kit, there's something wrong! Every other airline gets the samples free of charge! Indeed, in some cases, airlines are paid to include the manufacturers' samples!"

Perhaps we should dump Molton Brown and the designer crapola and obtain normal, everyday items and then pack our amenity kits to the brim!

[Morrissey]

And the crazy thing is I have a relation who can get me cheaper flights with BA. Quite sadly my boycott even extends to not going on the BA sponsored London Eye, and I tell my friends why - a very bad expereince on BA.

About 10 years ago I found a cube of glass in my meal, and was as good as accused of putting it there myself by the CC / purser.

One disattisfied customer used to be estimated to tell five friends, but through mediums such as this that has increased dramatically.

Just get me there safely, in a comfortable seat, and treat me like a human being who is actually paying you.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Glad to hear that Aeroflot have improved. My experience with them was back in the USSR (cue for a song) days - there was only one direction they could go from there!

I have recently heard reports of the following conversation, however:

Aeroflot hostie: "Dinner, sir?"

Pax: "What's the choice?"

Hostie: "You either eat it or you don't."

Probably apocryphal :O

[moku]

I have not stepped foot on a BA plane in over 10 years! Do not intend to start now. There are plenty of good airlines out there who I prefer to give my money too. I have even paid more to avoid BA and will continue to do so.

Poor customer service is the main reason. Unfortunately for BA once you loose a customer it is harder to get them back... Happy customers equals revenue, something BA seem to have forgotten.

[Boss Raptor]

Sounds like a similar catalogue of events to ours that caused us to ditch BA for good some years ago

The Moscow service has always been awful on BA, a friend had same probs changing a flight reservation and buying a fresh ticket with the BA office in MOW he said it was a nightmare

Aeroflot is ok never had a bad flight, average twice a month for 2 years

[Globaliser]

Pax Vobiscum: I have recently heard reports of the following conversation, however:

Aeroflot hostie: "Dinner, sir?"

Pax: "What's the choice?"

Hostie: "You either eat it or you don't."

Probably apocryphalProbably. But a conversation now more frequently reported from N-registered aircraft. And often with the variant punchline "Take it, or leave it." :D

[Bus429]

Strake,
CC then stood up walked to pax and told him "the authorities will be called when we stop"

I am certain that the ANO specifies that a passenger must obey any lawful command from the aircraft's captain. I have heard other tales of CC making threats of action by authorites wwhen we get to the gate The most memorable was that of a passenger on a BA flight to Germany who brought his own food and drink on board and was then told he was breaking the law and that if he consumed his own refreshments, he would be arrested when the aircraft arrived.
Perhaps Flying Lawyer could clarify the issue but I certain these threats have absolutely no legal foundation.
Unfortunately, most pax understandably feel that they are not in control when they are on board an aircraft and are intimidated by situations such as these.
There again, you get stupid pax who stand up before the aircraft has stopped...
My current favourites are SAS and Finnair. Clean aircraft, courteous staff.

[Cathar]

Bus429

You are, of course, correct about the ANO. However, the aircraft commander would have made a lawful command about the use of mobile 'phones at the beginning of the flight. Part of the cabin crew's duty is to ensure that the flight is conducted safely and they are presumably empowered by the aircraft commander to enforce his lawful commands. Even if they are not, an offence will have been committed and the cabin crew are entitled to report it to the police.

This is not to say that I support the behaviour described.

[Young Paul]

I agree that the behaviour of the CC was inappropriate - however, authority of the captain in the cabin is (for the most part) delegated to the cabin crew - and, for that matter, the no smoking and fasten seat belt signs.

[redsnail]

I flew with BA last Saturday (7/2/04) from LHR to SYD via SIN. Got there nice and early so I could check in and then do some shopping airside. Got to the desk and was told that they couldn't check me in because the flight was overbooked and I'd have to wait till 21:00. I wandered to the desk they told me to go to #26 I think.
I was nice and pleasant although not really looking forward to the chance of my plans going awry. (Hadn't seen Mum in 2 years etc). Any way, didn't give the chap grief, got a free coffee voucher and waited my turn.
Either my luck was in or my pleasant demeanor worked. I got on the flight. Admittedly, couldn't do the shopping I wanted but I did a quick shop at SIN so all in all happy.

I just figured it wasn't the check-in staff's fault so there was no use in hurling abuse at them. :)

The flight was fine, it got me there. Although I think I will pay extra for more leg room next time.

[Aksai Oiler]

Try Tel Aviv, the BA ground staff are notorious liars (you ask to sit in either row 6 or 7 and are regularly told that in this part of the cabin the IFE system doesn't work - when they really want to keep it as a crew rest area), the BA CC cabins are grubby and tatty on the 767.

I also flew from DME recently when the ground crew refused to check my baggage through to Manchester even though I had a valid connection. I was told the flight was going to be late and had to rebook my connection myself and it was tough about my baggage, it would go to London.

I remember when it was good to fly the flag - no more. Unfortunately I find it difficult to book alternatives due to equally bad service - KLM and AF are just as horrible, not to mention Lufthansa.:mad:

[EasyBaby]

I am the same, i will try to avoid BA as much as possible. My parents had the good humour to move to Shetland for a few years and the only airline in those days was BA who charged a whopping £360 for a 40 min flight. When Loganair, Buisness Air decided to have a go, good old BA dropped the prices until the airlines pulled out, then jump the prices back up. The other trick up their sleave was if the flight was half empty the would either merge two flights together or cancel the flight due to a tec reason and delay it until the morning, which was usually full causing sheer pandmonium the next day dispite it being a scheduled service. Also the courtious BA refuses to give any compensastion, vouchers to PAX stranded at ABZ or LSI (aberdeen/sumburgh) when flights are canceled dispite Shetland having some of the countries most notorious weather conditions, they make no concessions. BA just seem to keep their heads in the sand hoping Pax will choose them because of the pretty flag on the tail!!

Im on a right rant now......

Lufthansa, will also never fly again. While flying out to Frankfurt from Phillidelphia i was stranded in the aircraft in for 5 hours due to a thunderstorm, there was no APU or ground unit, so the cabin was dark and cold, the crew wouldn't let us move about in the cabin or did they offer any drinks. The cabin crew did a Pam Ann set a trolley up touched it went back to the galley, touched the trolley, back to the galley. They did this for hours!!! When we finally got in the air there was no apology even though i was going to miss my connection, and dissapointed to watch the same in flight movie that was shown on the previous inbound flight. Do i need to comment about the german food? (no offence to any germans but) One more thing and im done. Is it usuall paractice by Frankfurt or Lufthansa not to display the gate until -40, only by the time you get to the gate they've changed it again. Or when your ticket says the departure time of the aircraft and you arrive at the gate around an hour before that time to find your flight is boarding!!!! (taking into account time differences) or worse not even to display the flight info at all and you spend all day looking for the gate.


After posting the longest post in pprune history I feel better now thank you.

[Avman]

EasyBaby, could we now have that again in English please? :confused:

[EasyBaby]

Sorry bit drunk last night! :\

In simple terms just don't like B.A

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Best avoided, but can be done:
4: CDG/AF

Only if you really, really must:
3: FCO/AZ

Only if life or limbs are at risk:
2: FRA/LH

Never, never, never:
1: LHR/BA

Keep these 4 simple rules in mind, and aviating will be much more hassle free. To ensure the minimum level of hassle, avoid LHR all together. Too bad since VS is not a bad airline to pax on, its just their choice of hub that stinks ...

[Bus429]

Flip Flop,

Have to agree with your airport criticism. UK airports are mostly dire but LHR is, IMHO, the worst. Scandinavia has some of the best in the west but I think AMS and BRU aren't too bad.

[bealine]

....avoid LHR all together.

:ok: :D :ok:

Try Tel Aviv, the BA ground staff are notorious liars (you ask to sit in either row 6 or 7 and are regularly told that in this part of the cabin the IFE system doesn't work - when they really want to keep it as a crew rest area), the BA CC cabins are grubby and tatty on the 767.

Aksai Oiler - whilst I respect your experience, 'cos I know you are very supportive of BA, that's not fair on the TLV staff for the following reason.

Whilst row 6/7 may be designated the crew rest area, (probably due to the proximity of the galley and an area where the crew are least likely to disturb pax when they shuffle in and out for their breaks), the check-in staff in TLV would have no way of knowing this.

All they see when they check you in and bring up the seat map is that Row 6/7 are "Unusable". Usually, if seats are "U" status, it means either "Unfitted" or "Unusable" due to IFE not working, Seat Belts deemed unsafe, Tray Table broken, Recline ratchet broken etc etc The most common breakage on a seat by far, though, is the IFE (as no electronic system yet designed responds well to an environment where food and drink are regularly spilt on it!)

To be 100% fair, none of us on check-in are supposed to refer to a seat map at all. All we are supposed to ask you is if you like a "window or Aisle" and let the computer allocate seats. If we did this, the computer would automatically compensate for Weight and Balance trim and keep allocate remaining single seats so that families can be accommodated etc.

[PAXboy]

Whislt I agree that LHR is pit (well, several pits actually) I am lucky where it is concerned. For most of the past 25 years, I have lived within 35 miles of it, so I never use it as a hub. I can get in and get out with some ease. The only time I did change there, was a T1-T3 txfer onto VS and I just allowed LOTS of time and made it OK.

If BAA were a govt department, then an Ombudsman would be appointed to find out why it's so $hitty. Actually, there is no need, as we all know why. :hmm:

[Bus429]

Paxboy,

Good points. I have to say some UK regional airports are not too bad - I quite like NCL. Manchester has gone down a bit; the landside arrival & departure areas are a bit grotty and the motorway approaches are heavily littered.

[slim_slag]

Nowt wrong with Aeroflot's international service, and the premium cabin vodka trolley has to be seen to be believed.

The shame about BA is they lose customers over issues which wouldn't cost much (if anything) to put right.

[BEagle]

I for one will never fly ba until Marshall, King and the rest of the Dirty Tricksters have nothing more to do with that apology for an airline... Not my loss - theirs. I will have flown 70 sectors as a passenger in FY 2003, but not a brass farthing has gone to ba.

I'd stopped flying from Thiefrow until a last minute need to fly to Dresden last Sunday found my normal BHX flight full. So off to LHR..... M40/M25 choked even on a Sunday morning, arrived at the Long Term car park to be told that it was full! For f*ck's sake, this is supposed to be a major international airport!! So, a drive to the 'Pink Elephant' clutching a discount voucher. On to the bus and the usual slow drive through the dungeons under T1 before being dropped at T2. Which was heaving. Queued for the LH business class check-in for a good 10 minutes, check-in itself was fine. Then up to that cattle crush at the security gate. Security folk were pleasant enough, but what a dump they have to work in! Up to the business lounge - unlike FRA/MUC/DUS/BHX, no wi-fi access in the LH lounge.... Flight called and off to another grubby waiting area. Trip back was even worse - inbound from DUS, up scruffy jet pier which smelt like a wet labrador. Trudge along the tatty corridors and into that utter disgrace of the baggage reclaim. Then outside into the rain (why no canopy over the bus stops - except for the Pink Elephant?), onto bus, get stuck in Thiefrow's infamous internal traffic jams, finally back to car park. 1130 Sunday until 1756 Tuesday evening? That'll be £42 including discount!! Next mystery - WHY ISN'T THE NORTHBOUND M25 signposted?? So instead I find myself crawling along the A4 to Slough, then M4, A404M and queue to get onto the M40. Take a back road at Wheatley to avoid the latest A40 roadworks west of Oxford, home at 1945......

Compare this with flying from BHX. Drive through rural England to the A46/M40 roundabout (probably the worst signposted roundabout in England), then along quick secondary roads to the A45 and the airport - about 1 hr 20 minutes. Long Term car park always has stacks of space, so leave car, onto bus, terminal within 5 minutes. Or walk if the weather's nice. Queue for maybe 2 minutes at check-in, then a short walk to security and on to the lounge. Which, unlike LHR, does have wi-fi access.... Lounge to gate is about a 2 minute walk, unlike Thiefrow. When inbound, short walk to passport control and baggage reclaim, then pay for car parking (about 1/3 of the cost at LHR) in the terminal, short bus trip or walk to car park. Easy trip home.

So I now avoid LHR like the plague. It is overcrowded and expensive and an utter shambles. Flights to Europe from BHX are slightly longer, so that means a meal instead of a snack - even better value.

[Boss Raptor]

'The shame about BA is they lose customers over issues which wouldn't cost much (if anything) to put right.'

I couldn't agree more...but with (general) staff attitude and interest now at a similar low to Air France and Sabena (oh dear god for you have done us all a favour) think they are losing more pax than they are gaining...

As we (and Bealine) have said before someone from on high had better start listening to pax and staff alike...that is the crux of the problem I feel...communication :rolleyes:

[Young Paul]

I work from LHR and I can't see why anybody in their right mind would fly from there .....

[HZ123]

I regret all of these comments and having travelled with many other airlines as part of my job they are all about the same. There are good days and bad days. Those who feel strongly that BA are so poor might try booking a flight with them, as there are very many more than satisfied with BAs performance.

[Rollingthunder]

Seems to be morphing into a LHR thread.
I fly into/out of LHR about 14 times a year. Don't have a choice. I use T3, don't have a choice.
I coach in and out to/from Oxford and it's mostly ok - 70 minutes. Never been badly delayed. Worst bit is always in Oxford itself. Never been delayed getting to Central Bus Station. Usually one elevator is u/s it seems. OK, can put up with a 4 minute delay. Long slog underground to T3 but travelling pavement type thingees are usually working and a suitcase with wheels is a good thing. Getting to check-in is usually ok but often have to manouver around masses of people who seem to have started their day with a brick slammed upside their head. Check-in (don't use BA) can be a bit of a line-up (BA staff check-in at T4 was always a pain - thankfully I don't have to use that inefficient little office anymore) but I've often been re-directed to an open higher class check-in counter by helpfull queue monitor and sometimes have gone straight to the desk on arrival. Staff even sometimes recognize me.

Security can take a while. About 20 minutes has been my longest. No problem, a bit slow but efficient.

Hate being funneled into tax-free shops. There are no real deals. Not enough restaurants and only one smoking area. Another long slog to departure gate when gate number is finally announced. No separation of incoming and outgoing pax at this point.

Arrival - Long slog from gate to Immigration but never delayed long there - staff sort of friendly and efficient. Too many folks in the arrivals area. Does the entire extended familly of 14 really need to be there for every third world passenger arriving? Always feel defensive using the cash machine with so many stander arounders about. Long slog underground to coach station. Usually raining upon surfacing.

I've been through worse airports that deal with a lot less volume.

[Boss Raptor]

'Fraid the old 'good days and bad' excuse/reason doesn't wear - if you look at the reasons Strake and myself (colleagues) deserted BA (detailed in previous threads) it revolves around numerous different incidents over quite a period of time where (in my case) every flight out of a years flying on BA had some form of grief/agro/bad experience etc.

I am not going to use the phrase 'leaving in droves' but many people I know particularly in the higher tariff business travel tariffs are looking at alternatives to BA and are no longer give BA priority as a company/product (as they used do)..and some like Strake and myself and clearly a few others will no longer touch BA if it was the last flight to the last place etc. etc. :hmm:

In 2002, my last BA trips, flying BA as an overall experience deteriorated to as bad an overall experience as flying Sabena...and that really is saying something :rolleyes:

[c.r.m what is it]

I agree with hz123, most airlines seem the same to me, we all have bad days, but the loads are still very heavy with ba, every flight i have operated recently seems to be full, and the passengers all have a choice, so they choose to come to us!!!

[slim_slag]

Disagree that all airlines are the same. I'd agree that all "decent" airlines are unbelievably and incredibly safe and get you there at about the right time, and it could be argued that's all that really matters. But the bottom line is that safefy doesn't differentiate anymore.

If you fly a lot then you soon see that level of customer care differs greatly between airlines. I don't believe those once or twice a year long haul pax (who are currently filling up the planes because the US dollar is in the toilet) get to appreciate this.

LHR sucks. When flying to/from USA now prefer to fly via MAN and transit in some US East Coast hub rather than fly non-stop out of LHR. To Europe LHR to be avoided at all costs. Out to Asia and points on, LHR still unfortunately makes sense. That's just the way it goes.

[PAXboy]

To return to the BA of the thread title. I demoted BA 16 years ago and, like others, will not return until they have got rid of the Dirty Tricks mob.

As I have said in many threads, BA offer a very reasonable service most of the time when I do occasionally travel on them.

As to the 'They have a free choice and have chosen us', well, mostly it is money that chooses! Friends travelling from South Africa often land up on BA because the fares are low but they do not always appreciate the service ...

BA is demonstrating all of the classic symptoms of a major organisation that is nearing the end of it's natural life. This happens to ALL such, whether they are countries/empires or fast food franchise/airlines. There comes a point when they have run their course and NOTHING can bring them back. No matter how much money or talented management they might hire.

[Boss Raptor]

I understand that BA are officially concerned about their ever reducing yields due to losing those all important higher yield regular pax. - a full plane doesn't necessarily mean high yields, profits and/or does not necessarily indicate/make a successful airline... :hmm:

Example 1/3 the BA MOW flight sold of 'group travel' to Kuoni (or used to be) who certainly arent paying ordinary pax. tariffs for those seats

[HZ123]

Paxboy: it is time you joined the real world I fail to see that what happened 16 years ago can still influence you now. Going on your principle then I assume you cannot visit the USA ( due to their dirty tricks over Iraq) and must be in a terrible quandary at the next elections in the UK. Once again BA's lose is anothers gain.

[BEagle]

Regrettably ba have failed to wake up to the fact that (and I'm glad you now admit it that it did happen, HZ123) the scandal of 16 years ago is still seen by many people as an outrage - yet many of the guilty are still being paid huge salaries by ba.

We have long memories, and the appearance of Marshall on the end-of-Concorde TV programme, together with his praise for King, merely reinforced my resolve NEVER to fly ba until ALL the Dirty Tricksters have been rooted out and expunged from the company once and for all.....

Even though I'm sure that the aircrew and cabin crew do an excellent job, the spectre of the Dirty Tricks era still hangs around ba like a bad smell.

[Final 3 Greens]

HZ123

Although I don't take the same view as BEagle and Paxboy over the 'dirty tricks' campaign, I think it is you who needs to get into the real world.

These people are pax and your comments regretably give the impression of high handed arrogance, which many people perceive to be typical of BA.

I am a strong supporter of BA, but being defensive is not the way to react IMHO.

[PAXboy]

HZ123Paxboy: it is time you joined the real world I fail to see that what happened 16 years ago can still influence you now. Going on your principle then I assume you cannot visit the USA ( due to their dirty tricks over Iraq) and must be in a terrible quandary at the next elections in the UK. Once again BA's lose is anothers gain. 16 years ago? One company that had a fantastic product and nothing to fear, decided to try and kill off another company by underhand and illegal means. If I discover that any other company from whom I buy products or services was to do this or similar, I would stop using them immediately.

You are correct that I find the USA reprehensible. On the occasions that I go there, it is to visit my friends. I would like to see more of that beautiful country and, one day, I may do so.

As to the next elections in the UK, they give me no problem at all. I have never voted for Blair and never will. From the moment I first saw him on TV (following the death of John Smith, when he was in the running for leader) I said, "There is something not right with that man and I cannot trust him." My mind has not been changed on that.

Any other principles I live with and by? Many - but two at random: There is another airline who often have cheap fares and thousands of satisfied cutomers but I never use them as I do not like the way they do business, even if it costs me more money. Also, I try to help those that I can and not hurt those that I cannot. This includes making accusations at people I do not know, based on too little information.

[Diverse]

Can it really be true that all BA has to do is get rid of Marshall et al. He is going in July, who else do we need to be rid of then?

When he's gone and all who were associated with the 'dirty tricks', will we have to beat the people back from the aircraft with sticks, I don't think so.

[slim_slag]

No Diverse, but it will be a start. BA have had a series of top executives who permitted a culture where the customer was a pain in the butt, and the ones in the back were considered an expense.

Get some decent customer oriented people at the top, muck out the stables, and wait for the new passenger centric attitude to trickle down to the customer facing employees on the coal face. That will definitely take time. Then BA's superior product (on paper) won't be constantly undermined by the frequent crass service which nobody in management really wants to do anything about.

[bealine]

16 years ago? One company that had a fantastic product and nothing to fear, decided to try and kill off another company by underhand and illegal means. If I discover that any other company from whom I buy products or services was to do this or similar, I would stop using them immediately.

Whilst I certainly do not condone dishonesty, (which is exactly what Dirty Tricks was), I do believe this subject has had the ar5e kicked out of it and it's time to move on!

After all Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche and Volkswagen were glad to use Jewish slave labour supplied by Hitler's concentration camps during the 1930's - starvation diets, no pay, no regard for health and safety etc etc. The pharmaceutical giant I G Farben manufactured "Zyklon B", the very crystals used to murder millions in the specially constructed airtight chambers of Birkenau, Dachau and other unspeakable places. Other pharmaceutical giants (not all of them German either!) benefitted greatly from the hideous live experiments carried out on concentration camp prisoners!

Indeed, if you go back further in history, you will find Brooke Bond and the tea clipper ships they employed had a very chequered past!

I don't think that, judging by these companies' sales figures, many people have their consciences pricked by these events which put "Dirty Tricks" firmly in the shade!

I don't agree with the route British Airways is taking. As Boss Raptor rightly says, we're capturing the low-end of the market at the expense of driving away our high-yield customers. I just hope this message gets through to those at "Waterworld" of very little brain!!!

It's time to drop the grudges!:D

[BEagle]

The difference is, chum, that neither Brooke Bond, Porsche, IG Farben nor the others you mention are still employing those guilty of the offences you refer to - whereas ba certainly are.

Until they go, I won´t fly ba. Got to go now, flight to catch. Lufthansa!

[PAXboy]

Bealine: Overall, I agree. There has to be some reasonabkle limit as to how far back one goes and I dare say that there are people who do not like to do biz with me for a variety of reasons. I went into that detail only because of the post from HZ123.

Diverse: When he's gone and all who were associated with the 'dirty tricks', will we have to beat the people back from the aircraft with sticks, I don't think so. I agree!!! Yet, if they do all go, I will place BA equal 1st with VS for longhaul in my book and I will not assume that some of the remaining staff still think it was a good idea. But, once a customer/passenger, has got used to another way of doing things ....

[Animalclub]

It appears that the attitude in BA is being infused into QF (BA, I understand own about 20% of QF). They have common lounges (and other services) at various airports and it would appear the BA attitude shines.

Remember Pan Am where the cabin crew thought they were doing you a favour by allowing you on their toy (aircraft)?

[HZ123]

Remember PA I think some of these contributers were employed by them and the hurt runs very deep. While we are at it what about poor old Freddie Laker and the dirty tricks he had to put up with in which nearly half of the western worlds a/c makers and airlines were involved in his downfall.