PDA

View Full Version : God is my co-pilot?!??


PILOTGAL
10th Feb 2004, 12:38
Beggars belief...only in the States :rolleyes:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/02/09/airline.christianity/index.html

Nani
10th Feb 2004, 13:47
Pilotgal,

Same thread is going on at Rumours & News.

As a Christian who remembers God only when sh!t hits the fan,who am I to judge the Captain?

Would I be outraged to hear him if I were a pax in that plane? NO.
Is his speech any worse than the horrible movies they show? or inedible food they serve? or the talkative Capt's? or the ones who operates in complete silence where you wonder if there's anyone at the controls?

If this country could tolerate Tammy Faye,I think we ought to tolerate Capt's good sermon.


Conversation between my husband's grandfather (age 93,Unitarian) and great-aunt (age 88,Episcopalian) at the club after church service:

Great-aunt: How's the sermon?
Grandfather: Yes,salmon is good.

:)

Grandpa
10th Feb 2004, 15:10
Silence is much better than intolerance.
All you say is it doesn't matter adding sh/t to sh/t.
It would be a disaster for your country, and I wonder how it is at your place........................

Caslance
10th Feb 2004, 15:14
I think we ought to tolerate Capt's good sermon. Ballcocks!!!

If I want to hear a sermon, good bad or indifferent, then I'll go to church, not board an airliner. :*

Slasher
10th Feb 2004, 15:31
After 911 that wouldve initialey scared the sh!t out of anybody!

I get scared enough when a flamin islamic comes over the PA and says "We will arrive at XXXX inshar allah at 6.20 tonight."

Like "hey folks we arent controling the fate of this aircraft, a mythical being invented by an arabs brain is!"

HugMonster
10th Feb 2004, 16:56
Slasher, you can make your point without being offensive. :rolleyes:

I see no sign from the quote in your post that the aircraft is being controlled by a "mythical being". All "Insha'allah" means is "God willing".

If you were on a BA flight and the Captain's PA was "We will arrive at XXXX at 6.20 tonight, God willing" would it be worthy of comment? Of course not.

But because it is an Arabic expression used by Muslims, all of a sudden it becomes something threatening, illogical, with all sorts of overtones?

Curb your hatred for all things Islamic, please.

As for the subject of the post, the AA Captain was thoroughly inappropriate, and, assuming he DID use the word "crazy", offensive in the extreme.

Anthony Carn
10th Feb 2004, 17:15
Whilst I don't, thankfully, speak from personal experience, it really is all too easy to come out with something strange, or even unintended, on the PA in a moment of verbal diarrhoea. Colleagues have done it and said afterwards -- "What did I say that for?" It's a version of the telephone answering machine syndrome.

The thread opener describes a case which goes beyond that....maybe.

As far as I'm concerned, though, the best solution is to simply not make any PA's at all ! They distract me from my job, they distract my colleague from his job when he's doing a PA and they reduce the operation of the aeroplane to single crew, all of which degrades flight safety. (and, yes, I do include PA's on the ground). Of course, our Lords and Masters demand it, despite the obvious airmanship issues.

Too much faffing around with trivia in this job. :mad:

pulse1
10th Feb 2004, 18:25
A couple of years ago I summoned a colleague back from Saudi to attend a meeting which was very important for the future of our business. He went to the airline office to confirm his flight 24 hours before it was due.

He was told that he was booked on the flight which would leave at 13:00 the next day "Insha'allah". "Never mind Insha'allah" he said, "Are you sure that I'm on it and that it will leave on time?"

He found himself removed from the flight and was told to report back the next day. He missed the meeting which, as it turned out, was probably just as well.

Gouabafla
10th Feb 2004, 19:06
I'm a Christian and spend far too much of my life sitting in the back of aircraft. If I'd been a pax on this one, I'd have written a strong letter of complaint to AA for two reasons.

1. The guy was not being professional. When I fly, I want good competant people driving the machine: race and religion are irrelevant. Someone who uses the P/A for this sort of thing is clearly lacking in judgement.

2. By saying what he did when he did and in the way he did, he showed up my faith (which is important to me) to public ridicule. There are plenty of folks out there who want to put down Christians and Christianity (which they are perfectly entitled to do) - so we don't need Christians going round providing them with ammunition!

Grainger
10th Feb 2004, 19:35
Too right AC, it is indeed very easy to let mouth get a few seconds ahead of brain.

When it happens, you get the same sensation that you get when you slam the car door closed with the keys still inside - you know that you've done it but time between realising what you've done and being able to stop it happening is always just a few microseconds short of enough !

I remember doing the introduction to a radiation lab. Done it many times before and since but this time a very famous (female) scientist was visiting to inspect the lab. This would have been the worst possible time to stuff up, so naturally the gob got ahead of the grey cells. . .

What I had intended to say was that radiation levels in the lab were carefully monitored but that if anyone had any specific concerns they could talk to me discreetly before starting.

Instead I looked straight at our visitor and it came out as effectively: "hands up everyone who's pregnant !" :uhoh:

So I can understand how easy it is to blurt out an inappropriate comment - but this seems much more like a planned diatribe and as such completely unprofessional and out of order :mad:

Coconuts
10th Feb 2004, 20:13
He probably thinks the reason he's been persecuted now for his outburst is all part & parcel of the price to be paid for being an evangelising Christian, there brought up to believe that you know.

I met one guy who used to spend long flights trying to convert the pax beside him, could you imagine been stuck beside him for a whole flight, course he thought he was doing them a great favour.

But for this captain to call his pax 'crazy', maintaining your pax are nuts is bad PR if you ask me, no wonder so many of them panicked & reached for their cell phones. :rolleyes:

BTW what does inshar mean.

Slasher nice to see you back, hope you've got over everything. You'd be interested in a thread started a while back by Rollingthunder about one of your Muslim friends praying at the gate of an airport ;)

Coco

M.85
10th Feb 2004, 20:17
same as saying"meet to please you" rather than "please to meet you"?:=

M.85

Nani
11th Feb 2004, 00:35
Grandpa

It would be a disaster for your country, and I wonder how it is at your place........................

I live in Pennsylvania,just about all my neighbours are Mennonites (branch of Amish).
Thriving sect who are deeply religious and are not subjected to laws as we know it. They have their own schools where both Testaments are the base curriculum. They are not subjected to have their pictures on drivers licenses,women wears bonnets and men are not subjected to serve in military in any shape or form and they don't pay any indiviual State or Federal taxes.

We love them and hope more will decide to make the move from other States.


Slasher

I walked into too many THY flights and know exactly what you are talking about. Did it bothered me? NO. But I did cancelled many of THY flights after witnessing half empty "RAKI" bottles and glasses in front of Capt/FO's as they rise,stumble from their chairs to walk towards their planes.
No wonder they need inºallah before take-offs.

OK,it may have been unprofessional for that AA Captain,but I wasn't in that flight and unless the PA systems improved enough to relay a clear messages in the past 5 months,after "this is your Capt.....",I'm lost.

Caslance
11th Feb 2004, 02:50
Can you imagine the things that would be said on here if those of the Jewish faith on that flight had been asked to identify themselves?

Evangelism has it's place, and that place is most assuredly not among a captive audience in the sealed cabin of an airliner.

Anyway, I'll bet there wasn't a single person on that aircraft who obeys all of Christ's instructions.

(Think very carefully before engaging flame-on, guys and gals!)

Lily Rowan
11th Feb 2004, 03:29
If you were on a BA flight and the Captain's PA was "We will arrive at XXXX at 6.20 tonight, God willing" would it be worthy of comment? Of course not.

If I was on a BA flight and heard the Captain say “We will arrive at XXXX at 6.20 tonight, God willing,” my reaction would be similar to Slasher’s. The phrase “God willing” indicates that events are out of human control – a hypothesis that may be fine for philosophy discussions, but extremely bad for PAs at the beginning of a flight.

As for the AA flight, I believe the announcement was inappropriate for various reasons already mentioned by other posters.

HugMonster
11th Feb 2004, 03:38
So you are incapable of postulating that there MAY be a God, and if there is, you would conclude that he is not omnipotent, therefore being unable to "adjust" your headwinds, or ensure that your ATCO is in a foul mood all of a sudden and therefore puts everyone else ahead of you...

And if these events were to occur anyway, and some person whose faith in their religion exceeds yours, you find it perhaps somehow alarming the words they use to explain the situation?

You really feel that much in control?

If so, you're a fool.

The problem here is not that the Captain concerned believes in God and God's power, but that he made an extremely inappropriate PA given the circumstances (9/11, aircraft in flight, possibly nervous pax, etc.) and, furthermore, that he reportedly insulted all other religions. Shows a total lack of respect for anyone's beliefs but his own. As do you, as did Slasher.

Grainger
11th Feb 2004, 04:30
Hugs, religion and belief systems are a deeply personal thing.

Describing someone whose picture of the Universe differs from your own as a "fool" shows as great a lack of respect for other's points of view as those you are criticising.

Pot... kettle... that sort of thing....

HugMonster
11th Feb 2004, 18:55
Grainger you misread my post. I was criticising Lily for a fool for a couple of things:-

1. For believing she is so totally in control of the flight. Considering all the things that are out of our control, I don't consider that unfair.

2. For being totally unable to postulate the possible existence of a God which nobody can disprove. Sure, she may not believe in God - but almost everyone I know who is an atheist can at least accept that others do, and admit that we'll never find out (in this life, at least) who is right. I happen to believe in God. I accept that others don't, and I'm willing to accept I may be wrong.

Could you honestly consider that the passengers will panic all over the cabin if you use the phrase "God willing" in a PA, because it indicates that the aircraft is "out of human control"? Is anything in this life totally under our control? Of course it isn't.

The phrase "God willing" is simply some people's way of expressing what we all know - that things sometimes (quite often?) don't go according to plan. For Slasher to get "scared" at the use of the equivalent Arabic phrase is pathetic.

Rollingthunder
11th Feb 2004, 19:23
Could you honestly consider that the passengers will panic all over the cabin if you use the phrase "God willing" in a PA,

Perhaps not panic but it is totally unprofessional in a variety of senses in my opinion. I would be offended if I ever heard that from the flight deck and would be writing letters on arrival. Keep religion out of aviation. Religion is a personal thing - keep it that way.

eal401
11th Feb 2004, 19:33
The comments on religion are irrelevant to some extent. This individual has been offensive to his employer's passengers and resultantly should be sacked with his record marked to ensure no further passenger airline employment is possible.

I wonder if he would have made his comments on a Middle Eastern flight?

HugMonster
11th Feb 2004, 19:40
Rollingthunder - I agree with you 100%.

It is thoroughly unprofessional to drag one's own religious views into a PA, and, no matter how deeply felt, should be left at home.

My point was that the use of the phrase "God willing" or, in Slasher's original post, "Insha'allah" is hardly cause for someone (particularly a professional pilot) to get scared, concluding that the conduct of the flight is out of control. Slasher's original post was islamophobic in tone and extremely offensive - as offensive as the AA pilot had been to other religions.

Kaptin M
11th Feb 2004, 19:59
"My point was that the use of the phrase "God willing" or, in Slasher's original post, "Insha'allah" is hardly cause for someone (particularly a professional pilot) to get scared, concluding that the conduct of the flight is out of control.

Unfortunately this is the case too often in the Middle East, HM. There are many instances where HUMAN intervention could have prevented a retrievable situation from truning to disaster, however because of the"God willing" mindset it wasn't (prevented).
The all too ready acceptance that "God" had put them into this situation, and that it wasn't their duty to try to save impending doom, is what I believe Slasher may be referring to. (And if he's not, I am).

HugMonster
11th Feb 2004, 20:48
I hear your point, Kaptin M - it is a matter of which I am well aware.

However, to conclude from the single use of the phrase "Insha'allah" that the pilot has been gripped by such a mindset, or to conclude that all Arabs/Muslims are alike, is either islamophobic or racist - take your pick - and is thoroughly offensive.

To assume that all Muslim pilots will look at an EADI with the blue bit downwards, an ASI tending either to zero or infinity and an ACAS panel lighting up like a Christmas tree and say "Insha'allah" as he takes his hands off the controls and pushes his seat back is as offensive as a Christian pilot who announces that anyone on board his aircraft who isn't a Christian is crazy.

Grainger
11th Feb 2004, 20:50
Hugs;

Fair enough although Lily did not claim that a human would be totally in control. She only mentioned events being "out of human control" - quite the opposite.

As for your statment #2 - I would contend that to postulate the possible existence of anything that no-one can disprove is a meaningless proposition. It is therefore not possible to discuss whether it is right or wrong, since we do not have a well-formed proposition in hte first place.

This is a perfectly rational point of view - objective noncognitivism. You can Google it if you like.

Am I a "fool" too ?

HugMonster
11th Feb 2004, 21:01
No, you're not - you appear to be able to accept that some people believe in God, and others do not.

It is a long step indeed from disbelieving the existence of God to assuming that anyone who does relinquishes control over their lives.

When I am on a flight deck, I am as much in control of what goes on as the next pilot. That I believe in God does not mean my flight is more (or less) subject to the vagaries of headwinds, delays, malfunctions, failures etc. Simply that there are different methods of ascribing their cause (or prevention).

Lily used the phrase "events are out of human control". This is totally unjustifiable. It is that phrase that makes her the fool. I merely point out that, far from being "out of human control", humans are never totally in control.

Kaptin M
11th Feb 2004, 21:13
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, `You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Slasher
11th Feb 2004, 22:05
I think St Hugmonster needs to do a bit of 1st-hand research such as spending 6-8 months in say Indonesia where religous fatalism is the order of the day (in this case islamic). Should you do so huggey, Ill be the 1st to listen to your counterarguments (asuming your arent killed dead because of an avoidable acident binned as "allahs will").

Blame, esp sheer acts of direct and obvious human neglect and error, are usualey assigned to a deity (down there allah cops most of it). So when I was forced to pax in some broken down burnt-out crap heap between Medan and Yogyakarta at night in the middle of the monsoon, and I got hit with this Inshar A, I had damn bloodey good reason to sh!t! :bored:

HugMonster
12th Feb 2004, 00:22
Slasher, when you ascribe characteristics seen in one person (or even more) to an entire racial grouping, then you are racist.such as spending 6-8 months in say IndonesiaAre you sure I haven't?

Your sarcasm ("St. HugMonster") does not assist you much. And when you pax in some broken down burnt-out crap heap between Medan and Yogyakarta at night in the middle of the monsoonyou hardly need any comment such as "Insha'allah" - sounds like Allah is the only one holding the crate together. I think I'd be grateful for his help, rather than assuming that, simply because the crew are Muslim, they are fatalists who will blame any incompetence on Allah.

Since your anti-Islamic stance is well-known around PPRuNe, Slasher, I think you're protesting just a little too much.

Lily Rowan
12th Feb 2004, 00:26
At least one major world religion teaches that God has given humans free will and therefore the ability to control their fate. Believing in human free will makes me neither an atheist nor a fool.

Kaptin M said it better than I can:

There are many instances where HUMAN intervention could have prevented a retrievable situation from turning to disaster, however because of the "God willing" mindset it wasn't (prevented).

When traveling as a passenger on an airplane, I have no illusions that I am in control; however, I believe that there are many other humans involved in the process whose actions will affect the outcome of the flight. In the West, “God willing” is typically used when a miracle is needed (“The aircraft is poorly maintained and overloaded and the weather is horrible, but God willing, we’ll arrive at xxxx at 06.20” ) – I’d rather not find myself in that situation and take steps to increase the probability that I wont.

HugMonster
12th Feb 2004, 02:22
Of course humans have free will - nobody has said - in this thread at least - that they don't.

The Christian / Judaic / Muslim versions of God, however, historically have Him being fairly proactive in the world.

Most people of any religious tendency whatsoever are quite happy believing that God gives them a hand in their daily lives. Phrases such as "God willing", "There but for the grace of God...", "God helps those who help themselves", "God-given", "God's gift to..." etc etc all bear witness to attempts by humans to explain why their lives are this way rather than that way. What they DON'T do is affirm that people of whatever faith turn to God only as a last resort before hitting the scenery head-on.

Nor do they attest that, should anyone in control of your flight happen to use the word "God" (or "Allah"), it's time for Slasher to get out a clean pair of trousers (pants to you, Lily).

I know many, many Muslims in aviation of quite a variety of nationalities. None of them are remotely unprofessional in the manner ascribed to all Muslims by Slasher, Kaptin M and Lily. All would laugh uproariously at the implication that they are inclined to throw up their hands when anything goes wrong and leave it all up to Allah to sort out.

The implication is racist, abhorrent and offensive.

Kaptin M
12th Feb 2004, 03:26
HugMonster wrote, "None of them are remotely unprofessional in the manner ascribed to all Muslims by Slasher, Kaptin M and Lily."
You are grand-standing, HM - at NO time did I ever state "all Muslims"!! If you re-read my post I statedThere are many instances...For one who proclaims himself to be a believer in the existence of a "higher order", your "bearing of false witness" makes you something of a hypocrite, don't you think.

Time to first take the plank from your own eye, brother?

As a matter of fact, I have several close friends who are Muslims with whom I work, 2 from Turkey, 1 from Iran, and 1 from Iraq. Additionally I flew with scores of Muslims during my 3 years in Malaysia, and 5 in Singapore, and can state that this trait is not, and was not evident in those whom I have known.
This, however, is NOT always the case when talking with pilots who have lived and worked in the Middle East, and Indonesia.

HugMonster
12th Feb 2004, 03:58
Kaptin M - I apologise. No, you didn't say "all Muslims".

In fact, judging from your last post, it sounds like quite a rarity. One might suspect, since you have apparently only heard about it third-hand, it might perhaps be an urban myth?

Is it possible that all Muslims are getting tarred with one brush - that any Muslim pilot who utters the name of God is probably either going to abdicate all responsibility for the crash that is about to happen when he could save the aircraft, or is actually about to CAUSE it to crash? Might perpetuating such a rumour be considered racist and offensive to Muslims?

Kaptin M
12th Feb 2004, 04:27
You're quite a crusader, aren't you Huggy.
I have only "heard about it" wrt to pilots, directly from pilots who have had first hand experience with people of that mindset.
I have experienced the "Insha Allah"s and the "Asalamalaykum"s during my flights to the Middle East, when listening to and using the R/T. eg. "XXXX clear to land, Insha Allah".

It may well be acceptable in the aforementioned countries, to explain away a fatal car crash as "Insha Allah", however as professional pilots it is not a credible reason for failing to take ALL available and necessary options to protect pax and aircraft....any Muslim pilot who utters the name of God is probably either going to abdicate all responsibility for the crash that is about to happen when he could save the aircraft, or is actually about to CAUSE it to crash? I would suggest that in a Muslim Middle Eastern country, "Insha Allah" might WELL be an acceptable part of the cause.
There you go, putting words into my mouth again, Huggy!!

Caslance
12th Feb 2004, 04:33
So far as I am aware, "in'sh Allah" is just a part of everyday conversation for most Arab-speaking Moslems, rather like a Western "Christian" saying "Bless you" when a person sneezes - unless, of course, you really do believe that a sneeze makes the soul vulnerable to demonic possession, which is actually where the custom arises.

Some of you are reading far too much into what is, in the main, a conversational lubricant.

Anyway, I wonder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?:confused:

HugMonster
12th Feb 2004, 05:00
Spot on, Cas.

Kaptin M, "Assalam aleikum" means "Peace be with you", in case you needed to know. As far as I am aware, it's not a symptom of unprofessionalism among Muslim pilots.

Do you, perhaps have any objection to people saying "Good bye" when parting? It is, after all, a corruption of "God be with you". Perhaps it suggests that the person saying it to you doesn't trust you to look after yourself, and suspects that you need a "mythical being", as Slasher so elegantly put it, to keep an eye on you, and they are thus impugning your intelligence and ability?

Kaptin M
12th Feb 2004, 05:46
Off on a slight tangent here, but for the sake of correctness, Caslance the "Bless you" when someone sneezes originated, as I understand it, much along the same lines as the nursery rhyme we knew as kids, "Ring a ring of roses, a pocket full of posies, A tishoo (Ashes), a tishoo (Ashes), we all fall down."

This nursery rhyme began about 1347 and derives from the not-so-delightful Black Plague, which killed over twenty-five million people in the fourteenth century. The "ring around a rosie" refers to the round, red rash that is the first symptom of the disease. The practice of carrying flowers and placing them around the infected person for protection is described in the phrase, "a pocket full of posies." "Ashes" is a corruption or imitation of the sneezing sounds made by the infected person. Finally, "we all fall down" describes the many dead resulting from the disease.

"Assalam aleikum means "Peace be with you", in case you needed to know."...HugMonster.
Really? Then why is it that non-Muslims (according to Muslims) are not supposed to say it?

Anyway, that is a side issue on what our discussion is about. We are discussing the possible adverse affects on aviation Safety, that the introduction of religious practices may incur.

Slasher
12th Feb 2004, 09:45
Since your anti-Islamic stance is well-known around PPRuNe, Slasher, I think you're protesting just a little too much.

Your trademark closed loop ad hominem counter wont shut me up Hugmonster, in fact I was gonna let the matter rest. I may have called you "St" as a simple name-call to check wether your a reactionary or a responder, but attacking the arguer and not the argument seems to be your signature in many posts (Lily being another example). This is very typical in religion and politics but has no place in constructive argument or fact-finding on a secular pragmatic platform.

I scribed the argument that religius fatalists do nothing to instill confidence when making public (PA) pronouncements that directley or indirectley infer a supernatural deitey is responsible for future events. It doesnt matter wether the pronouncement is made in islamic, christian, judaistic, or calathumpien theologue. Therefore what I think about islamics has no bearing on the subject, just as JLM had valid arguments years ago against Darwinian theorey which required me to do a lot of further research on Evolution before I could reply constructiveley. Everyone jumped up saying hes a self-admited bible-nut and his arguments therefore need not be taken seriusley (same as your ad hominem method). I cared nothing for his christian myths but his arguments were well-thought out and he used established facts not emotion nor religius dogma. He was no fool thats for sure.

Oh btw Hugs Im not so much anti-islamic but more pro-atheism. Its not a belief of conveniance but one arived at by many years of studey and research (ask around). My current error bar for this deduction is 10%. What yours hmmm?

HugMonster
12th Feb 2004, 16:59
Really? Then why is it that non-Muslims (according to Muslims) are not supposed to say it?Checked with the other half - she says it's a new one on her. I think you need to check with your sources - they seem to let you down quite a bit.

Slasher, this thread was originally about some born-again AA pilot putting the wind up his passengers by proselytising over the PA. You chose to use that as an attack on Muslims based on a simple phrase that is common currency in Arabic and has little, if any, significance in any conversation. I pointed out that such an attack was as offensive to Muslims (and Arabs) as the AA pilot's PA was to almost anyone. To try to turn the use of an everyday phrase into an implication of unprofessionalism in anyone who uses it is ridiculous and pathetic.

Kaptin M
12th Feb 2004, 17:39
""Assalam aleikum" - why is it that non-Muslims (according to Muslims) are not supposed to say it?"......."Checked with the other half - she says it's a new one on her."

Purely co-incidentally I had the pleasure of the company of my Iranian (Muslim) friend in the car today, and I raised this very topic with him. BTW, it was more than one Malaysian (Muslim) who told me (as a non-Muslim) that I should NOT use that phrase.

My Iranian friend told me that in fact the phrase "Asalam"..or "A shalom" is of Arabic derivative, and that "aleikum" or "Allah kum" is also derived from Arabic, and that he is unaware of its complete meaning. He did however, NOT agree with your interpretation of "Peace be with you",Huggy.
So perhaps YOU need also check YOUR source if you are to attempt maintain some credibility.

HugMonster
12th Feb 2004, 17:42
Since the phrase is Arabic, I think I'll take the word of an Arab over a Malaysian or an Iranian, thank you.

BTW, I also double-checked that it does appear in my Arabic phrase book - no injunction for non-Muslims to beware of using it.

Caslance
13th Feb 2004, 00:45
Off on a slight tangent here, but for the sake of correctness, Caslance the "Bless you" when someone sneezes originated, as I understand it, much along the same lines as the nursery rhyme we knew as kids, "Ring a ring of roses, a pocket full of posies, A tishoo (Ashes), a tishoo (Ashes), we all fall down."
Hmmm, I dunno, Kaptin, M.

These bacteriologists here (http://biowww.clemson.edu/biolab/sneeze.html) (I know, I know..... :8) seem to agree with my version of the origin of "Bless You" whereas Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/language/phrases/blessyou.htm) seems to be uncertain.

Lily Rowan
13th Feb 2004, 01:17
While it’s never pleasant to be on the receiving end of personal attacks, and I’m certainly not condoning them as an acceptable debate tactic, I must admit that I am absolutely giddy about being chided alongside Slasher and Kaptin M – kind of like a Catholic-school girl hanging out with the guys who ride motorcycles and wear black leather jackets. Being associated with infamy ... well ... I know it shouldn’t make me smile, but it just does. :D

Plus, now I really feel like I’m a part of the PPRuNe club. :)

Slasher
13th Feb 2004, 13:02
To try to turn the use of an everyday phrase into an implication of unprofessionalism in anyone who uses it is ridiculous and pathetic.

One thing I like about you Huggey is you keep provin my point! A savage attack on my spelling abilitey would be a good'n! :ok:

Anyway Hugs you corectley indicated Ive gone off topic somewhat (how magnanamus of me!), so if you are putting forth that islamics utterin "inshar allah" is mereley a phrase without any direct intent of literal meaning (just as I say "thank christ" in ordinarey conversation without actualey meaning Im thankin any mythical being) then ok Ill accept it but ONLY on face value terms. If you can back up your claim with proven quotes from recognised islamic authoritey and supply the referances, thatd cement your argument. The onus would be now on ME to disprove them with hard evidence wouldnt it hmmm? Just that based on 1st-hand experience it makes people bloodey nervus when spoken in a religousley fatalist environment (as in my example Indonesia).

Lily youve got as much right to make a statement on a public forum just as everyone else has as much right to criticise your arguments, if unknown facts are to be discovered or new ideas and theoreys tested for proof. When confronted by simpletons who attack the arguer and not the argument its best to just ignore them, just as we ignore the "authoritative" unsuported ramblings of politicians and religous nuts. Your only wasting your time.

flapsforty
13th Feb 2004, 15:18
The family game "My Arab is better than Your Arab" has been successfully completed. Huggy has called Lily a fool and Slash a racist. Lily is thrilled to be in with da Bad Lads and Slash has called Huggy a simpleton.
Slightly worried about Kaptin M's impeccable behaviour though.....................

Now that all the above is off chests and scales are balanced, let's see what new twists and tortured turns this debate may take.
Back to the fray all, with the caveat that the next personal attack will see this one locked. :ok:


Slash, your spelling has always been sh!te. Between the tender mercies of yourself and Draper, my English has been hopelessly corrupted.

Coconuts
13th Feb 2004, 16:40
You're on a slippery downhill slope there Lily, pairing up with those two wild Ozzie boys. There'll be no climbing out of the pit for you now LOL ;)

What would the nuns ever think.....:E

(I don't know why but I can't help thinking of Sandra Dee in Grease LOL )

HugMonster
13th Feb 2004, 17:49
Slasher, I have to confess that I regularly use the term "Jesus Christ" as an exclamation. I know people who say things like "Jesus wept". Graffiti appeared in the toilets of an advertising agency that lost a major soft drinks company as a client saying "Jesus schwepped". People say "Good bye" to each other (a foreshortening of "God be with you"). None of these, as far as I know, are indications of their belief in a higher power. In my case it's there, but the above is merely not an indicator.

Were any Arab (or other Muslim) to say "Insha'allah" it does not indicate their relinquishing responsibility and putting all in the hands of Allah. As far as I can tell, Muslims are no more predisposed to any form of fatalism than any other religion. If that were true, there wouldn't be much point in going into hospital in the Middle East. I can just imagine the doctor's diagnosis. "Well, Insha'allah you'll recover. I have these drugs that infidels would use, but if it is not in the will of Allah, I'd just be wasting money, so there's not much point". Whether or not Indonesians are fatalist in outlook is another matter. If so, it may be a matter of Indonesian culture rather than Islam.

No, I don't have access to any authority that you would recognise telling you that it is simply an expression, a form of verbal punctuation when talking about the future. I can read a few words of Arabic with a great deal of difficulty. I have no idea whether there is any equivalent of the OED in Arabic.

Flaps, it is interesting that, although I have not attacked Slasher's spelling and grammar, he appears ready for some onslaught from here on the matter, yet it comes from you, directly after you state you will close this thread immediately after the next personal attack... :rolleyes: Slasher, FWIW I don't recall ever having attacked anyone's punctuation/grammar unless it is in context - e.g., someone brings up the subject themselves in a badly-spelt post, or it is germane to the discussion. Since I am currently reading "Eats Shoots and Leaves", the temptation is strong, but not irresistible.

Slow-Rider
13th Feb 2004, 19:12
I've resisted the temptation this long but I knew i would have to throw my money's worth in!

On the face of it I agree religion should be kept out of the cockpit purely because of our lack of real mutli-cultural understanding and common sense. If it makes people nervous then lets stop it!

Personally though I would never have thought there could be such a difference of opinion over what, to me, is such a simple little phrase - "God Willing" - it is, IMHO a simple phrase said not to temp fate! (especially on Friday 13th!!)

I spent 11 years growing up in the Middle East and must say it is a very different place to how I see it portrayed.

The Arabic speaking world and the world of Islam are both quite large, within it there are differing believes, some quite obscure!

I once had a Sudanese friend who believed that a shooting star was actually the Devil's spy being caught by God!
My point is that quite often vastly different things are belived in Islam and in society itself. I think "Assalem Alliekum" highlights this. I would be intersted to see what one of the many Christian Egyptians would say if they were told to stop saying what essentially means "hello!" in their language.

Slasher
13th Feb 2004, 23:14
Back to the fray all, with the caveat that the next personal attack will see this one locked.

Aw Flaps sweetheart and you used to be fun! :ugh: And heres me thinkin cute horney-lookin Pursers with much-admired bodeys never get crustey and cantankerus! :bored:

PS that wasnt a personal attack, more a lustfull one of a afectionate nature! ;)